Pasteurising in bag-in-box

[Mark Evens]

Does anyone have any experience of pasteurising cider or juice
directly in bag-in-box bags (i.e. rather than pasteurising then
filling)? In particular, how do you make sure the internal temperature
is correctly measured? Do you do it like bottles, with the tops off
(and with the neck held on a support) or seal the bag and use a rule
of thumb as to how long it takes to heat through? Any thoughts
gratefully received.
Thanks
Mark

[Andrew Lea]

On 30/10/2010 20:19, Mark Evens wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience of pasteurising cider or juice
> directly in bag-in-box bags (i.e. rather than pasteurising then
> filling)?

You imply that this is a current practice. Is it? Where did you learn
about it?

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[Mark Shirley]

I suppose it could work. Fill the BiB, then pop the whole bag into a bath at
the correct temp for the required lenght of time, with a control bag of
water with a thermomenter in to monitor the process. Sounds a bit cumbersome
for a small-scale producer though.

My understanding on what is normal practice for pasteurised fill of BiB
comes from what I believe Westons do (or did). They 'Hot Fill' their BiB's,
which I've always taken to mean that they heat the cider to a certain level
for the required time, then fill the bags, using the heat of the cider to
effect a sterile fill.

Mark

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[Andrew Lea]

Mark (x2),

My understanding is that external water-bath heating would damage the
laminate; at least it would have done not so long ago, but perhaps there
are newer heat resistant laminates which now allow this to be done? But
to get to the required temp at the centre of a 20L bag would take a long
time.

I had understood generally that sweetened wines and ciders were cold
sterile filtered into BiB, or pasteurised and partly cooled before
filling. If the bulk cider is taken directly from a flow-through
pasteuriser / heat exchanger, a fill temperature of around 55C should be
satisfactory to kill any stray yeasts in the bag. However I am no
packaging expert and like both the Marks would be interested to know
more from someone who is.

Andrew

[Michael Cobb]

.
>
> I had understood generally that sweetened wines and ciders were cold
> sterile filtered into BiB, or pasteurised and partly cooled before
> filling. If the bulk cider is taken directly from a flow-through
> pasteuriser / heat exchanger, a fill temperature of around 55C should be
> satisfactory to kill any stray yeasts in the bag. However I am no
> packaging expert and like both the Marks would be interested to know
> more from someone who is.
>
> Andrew

When I first went to Jigsaw to get some bags there was a discussion about
pasteurisation. He implied that one of his customers (Weston?) hot filled
which might tie in with what you say Andrew. I seem to remember we were
talking about how long cider willl keep in a bag and he mentioned this at
that time.

Michael Cobb

[Mark Evens]

Vigo seem to promote it on their web site - e.g
http://www.vigopresses.co.uk/store/pages.php?page=pasteurisers
Mark

[Andrew Lea]

On 30/10/2010 22:06, Mark Evens wrote:
> Vigo seem to promote it on their web site - e.g
> http://www.vigopresses.co.uk/store/pages.php?page=pasteurisers
> Mark

Hmm ... Interesting! That overturns conventional wisdom as I had it! I
need to learn more. Have you talked to Vigo or Jigsaw?

[Mark Evens]

I haven't talked to Vigo. I assumed I that it might be something many
of their customers do, but clearly not. I'll give them a call if no-
one has any further light to shed, and report back.
Mark

[Mark Evens]

Vigo have kindly pointed me to the relevant section of their website
at http://www.vigopresses.co.uk/store/product_info.php?cPath=60_80&products_id=388
I'll give it a go.
Mark

[orchard7]

I do 50 3 ltr bags of apple juice just for my own consumption each
year in a water bath and it works fine Just try some
Good luck
Paul

On Nov 1, 1:06 pm, Mark Evens <lordlambou...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Vigo have kindly pointed me to the relevant section of their website

> athttp://www.vigopresses.co.uk/store/product_info.php?cPath=60_80&produ...

[ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk]

Just thought I would put my experience of pasteurising 20 litre bags up for general info:

 

We make quite large quantities of elderflower cordial in the summer. We then dilute this when required, and bottle using a carbonator to get a great tasting sparkling elderflower pressé.

We use the standard 20 litre bags supplied by Jigsaw for this, and they withstand the time and temperature required very well. We have had no breakages or leaks.

I use a data logger positioned within a trial bag to get the required core temp and for the required time.

I am really happy doing this and have great confidence in the bags etc.

 

However, trying to do the same thing with cider is/was a very different story…..

I just thought I would give it a go, but the bags just blew up like cushions! Amazingly, the seal on the bags and the taps did not fail.

A large amount of dissolved carbon dioxide (I guess) came out of solution and blew up the space between the inner bag and the outer making it impossible to use.

 

So I’m sure the only way to do it is the way it has been mentioned already by using a flash pasteuriser and hot filling. Very expensive bits of kit.

The main reason for pasteurising cider before filling a bag is to stop it fermenting once in the bag.

I now just make sure I have cider that has genuinely stopped its work (well over 12 months old)  and only use sucralose if it needs sweetening.

 

Hope this is of some help.

 

Jason

 

________________________________________

Ashridge Cider

Barkingdon Farm

Staverton

Totnes

Devon TQ9 6AN

Tel/Fax: 01364 654749

Mob: 07919 992934

E: ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk

W: www.ashridgecider.co.uk

--

[Andrew Lea]

Thanks for those very interesting observations Jason. I had a
conversation the other day with Jigsaw who confirmed that their
co-extruded bags are rated to stand 55C but they were aware of people
using them briefly at higher temperatures for in-bag pasteurisation
quite satisfactorily. Apparently they also have two forms of bag
available - one much less prone to ballooning in the presence of excess
CO2 than the other - so it might be worth checking which type you have.

Andrew

On 02/11/2010 22:54, ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk wrote:
> Just thought I would put my experience of pasteurising 20 litre bags up
> for general info:
>
> We make quite large quantities of elderflower cordial in the summer. We
> then dilute this when required, and bottle using a carbonator to get a

> great tasting sparkling elderflower press�.

>
> We use the standard 20 litre bags supplied by Jigsaw for this, and they
> withstand the time and temperature required very well. We have had no
> breakages or leaks.
>
> I use a data logger positioned within a trial bag to get the required
> core temp and for the required time.
>
> I am really happy doing this and have great confidence in the bags etc.
>
> However, trying to do the same thing with cider is/was a very different

> story�..

>
> I just thought I would give it a go, but the bags just blew up like
> cushions! Amazingly, the seal on the bags and the taps did not fail.
>
> A large amount of dissolved carbon dioxide (I guess) came out of
> solution and blew up the space between the inner bag and the outer
> making it impossible to use.
>

> So I�m sure the only way to do it is the way it has been mentioned