Making cider from concentrate

[als chilli cider]

Following this years garlic cider disaster we are about to purchase some bittersweet concentrate to start the whole process all over again.

I have never done this before and have a few queries with the process.

1) the concentrate is Brix 70%, having never used Brix before is this figure the juice sugar content after its been diluted as this figure seems to convert to an sg of 1355 which I don't understand

2) what sort of water do I need to add to the concentrate? Is normal tap water ok?

3) do i need to sulphate in the normal way

4) I assume I cannot use wild yeasts so what yeast is going to be best for fermenting should I use the ec1118 champagne yeast??

Many thanks in advance
Alan

[Andrew Lea]

On 15/01/2013 07:14, als chilli cider wrote:
> Following this years garlic cider disaster we are about to purchase some bittersweet concentrate to start the whole process all over again.

First of all you need to beg forgiveness from the Goddess Pomona and
from half the members of this list for the sins you are about to commit ;-)

After that, read below.....

If you make a cider purely from bittersweet concentrate it will end up
as unbalanced as any cider made purely from bittersweets would. You must
have some acid fruit or juice in there, or blended later, to balance it.
Or you must be prepared to add malic acid from a bag. Ask the supplier
for the acid level of the conc, do some calculations, and maybe buy
something more acid to go with it if you don't have access to eg stored
Bramley.

> 1) the concentrate is Brix 70%, having never used Brix before is this figure the juice sugar content after its been diluted as this figure seems to convert to an sg of 1355 which I don't understand

No that is the Brix and SG of the concentrate itself. You can dilute it
to whatever value you like for fermentation. Normal single strength
juice is shall we say SG 1.050 or Brix around 13. You can dilute it to
that value or you could dilute it to SG 1.100 and make a high strength
apple wine which you later dilute with water. That saves on tank
capacity but will probably give you a rather different sort of cider.

> 2) what sort of water do I need to add to the concentrate? Is normal tap water ok?

In theory it should be soft (or distilled) water but in practice tap
water is generally fine. You will raise the mineral levels of the cider
a small amount but probably not enough to matter.

> 3) do i need to sulphate in the normal way

Cidermakers do not add sulphate. Brewers do (Burtonisation). If you mean
adding (metabi)sulphite you should add the same level adjusted for the
pH as you normally do. The concentrate is not truly sterile.

> 4) I assume I cannot use wild yeasts so what yeast is going to be best for fermenting should I use the ec1118 champagne yeast??

There will indeed be wild yeasts in the concentrate but they will be
undesirable ones like Zygosaccharomyces baillii. It is best to add a
proper dose of a good wine yeast. Don't know why everyone is so hung up
on using EC1118 for cider these days. Concentrates need all the help
they can get flavour wise and I would use a more interesting wine yeast
which contributes some flavour itself. See
http://www.homebrewcentre.co.uk/categories.asp?cID=148 Concentrates are
normally deficient in thiamin and possibly in amino acids too (due to
losses on storage) so you may need to add nutrients to your fermentation
or it may sulk or stick. If the rediluted concentrate is very clear it
may also benefit from some insoluble solids (eg a touch of bentonite) to
prevent sticking too.


Andrew

[Nick Bradstock]

-----Original Message-----

First of all you need to beg forgiveness from the Goddess Pomona and from
half the members of this list for the sins you are about to commit ;-)

Andrew



An observation that 2 perfect halves balance each other perfectly - and that
in any case the good priest will give absolution after the sin (has been
committed and then confessed).
So what's the problem with AJC? (I ask simply because I would like to know
if there are more problems than those Andrew has identified and remedied in
his response!)
Yours (rather tongue-in-cheekily)
Nick

[als chilli cider]

Andrew thanks for the response,

 

first of all given the choice i would not be contemplating brewing from concentrat so i beg forgiveness from all of you folk out there, half of the fun for us in making cider is the process of collecting apples and processing them. But after this years disaster with the garlic flavoured barrels we are facing the potential of no cider to drink later this year hence why we are thinking about comitting this dreadful crime.

 

the product we are thinking of using is as listed below

 

 

Product: Bittersweet Apple Juice Concentrate 70 °Brix
Latin Name:  Malus x domestica
Warranty:  The product is manufactured in accordance with GMP and
HACCP and conforms with all relevant EU legislation. Juice
contents conform to AIJN Code of Practice.
General Description:  An amber - brown cloudy viscous liquid made from English
Cider Apples. Free from any off-notes or adverse flavours.
Origin:  UK
Form (s):  Frozen
Packaging :  1350kg IBCs or 250kg net frozen drums
Storage: Frozen (-18°C)
Shelf Life:  6 months from production
Brix (at 20ºC):  69.0 – 72.0°, refractometric, uncorrected
pH: 4.0 Maximum
Starch:  May be present
Microbiological
standards
Total Count
(/g): Yeasts (/g):  Moulds (/g):  Pathogens: 
<1000 <100 <100 Absent

 

we have an option for a straight forward apple concentrate as below but this is not very high in tannins

 

Product: Apple Juice Concentrate, 70° Brix, 2.0 – 3.0% acidity,
(Normal Acid) with essence
Latin Name:  Malus x domestica
Warranty:  The product is manufactured in accordance with GMP and
HACCP and conforms with all relevant EU legislation. Juice
contents conform to AIJN Code of Practice.
General Description:  A straw – amber coloured clear viscous liquid, characteristic
of apple and free from any off-notes or adverse flavours.
Origin:  Processed in Germany from fruit of various origins.
Form (s):  Aseptic
Processing:  The Concentrate is prepared from sound, ripe fresh or deep
frozen fruits (100% of named fruit) which are cleaned and
inspected, juice mechanically extracted, concentrated and
aseptically filled. Essence re-added.
Packaging :  25kg net aseptic bag-in-box or 265kg net aseptic Drum
Storage: Aseptic packs may be stored chilled (0-4°C) or frozen (-
18°C).
Shelf Life:  Chilled – 6 months from date of production
 Frozen – 12 months
Brix (at 20ºC): 70.0 ± 1.0, refractometric, uncorrected
pH: 3.0 ± 0.3
Total Acidity: 2.5 ± 0.5 % as Malic acid, to pH8.1
Density: 1.35
Microbiological
standards
Total Count
(/g): Yeasts (/g):  Moulds (/g):  Pathogens: 
<100 <10 <10 Absent

 

 

My option would be to use the bitter sweet concentrate and add malic acid as you say, I have some malic acid tablets, you mention malic acid from a bag, is this the same thing?

 

what are your thoughts on the data sheet for the bitter sweets is this the best product to start with or should i use the standard apple concentrate, will i get a decent tasting cider from it if i correct the acidity or should i just accept the worse and have a cider free summer?

 

I assume a slow fermentation is best at a lower temp with the addition of a yeast nutrient rather than a faster higher temp ferment which would have less risk of sticking.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I would blend the 2 juices!
Looking at the acidity of the standard juice, 2.5%. If you dilute it
to 14 Brix, this is 5 times, hence your reconstituted juice would be
at .5% or 5 g/L of malic acid - this is not that high!
Claude

[Tim]

We don’t BREW, we FERMENT ;)

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[Dibbs]

Hi Al,

Where are you getting the bittersweet concentrate from and do they do relatively small quantities?

I'd like to try fermenting a small batch and blend it with my cider made from desert apples. I don't have access to proper cider fruit up here in Yorkshire. This may be an acceptable compromise.

 

I found somewhere in Normandy that does bittersweet concentrate but I think the minimum quantity was 220l. Too much for me especially for an initial experiment.  

 

I have made a small sacrifice to Pomona just for thinking about it.

 

[Andrew Lea]

I am honestly a bit puzzled now by what you are planning to do. I assumed you were running some sort of business, but if this cider is only for your personal consumption then what are you planning to do with 250kg of frozen bittersweet concentrate which will give you upwards of 1000 L of juice after dilution? Or will they sell you smaller amounts?� Have you costed all this out?

It seems from the data sheet that the regular (dessert)� conc is available in much smaller packages. But if you are used to cider made with bittersweets, then the dessert conc will definitely disappoint you if used on its own. But as Claude said it would be good to blend with the bittersweet, at about 1:1.

If it were me I would rather accept a cider-free year rather than buying in someone else's concentrate to make cider, unless I could get suitably small amounts and I knew the provenance.� Of course if I were a business where I'd encountered some disaster and I simply had to have the cider, the considerations might be rather different.� But I don't think concentrates are really for hobbyists.

Andrew

On 15/01/2013 14:05, als chilli cider wrote:

Andrew thanks for the response,

�

first of all given the choice i would not be contemplating brewing from concentrat so i beg forgiveness from all of you folk out there, half of the fun for us in�making cider is the process of collecting apples and processing them. But after this years disaster with the garlic flavoured barrels we are facing the potential of no cider to drink later this year hence why we are thinking about comitting this dreadful crime.

�

the product we are thinking of using is as listed below

�

�

Product: Bittersweet Apple Juice Concentrate 70 �Brix
Latin Name:� Malus x domestica
Warranty:� The product is manufactured in accordance with GMP and

HACCP and conforms with all relevant EU legislation. Juice
contents conform to AIJN Code of Practice.

General Description:� An amber - brown cloudy viscous liquid made from English

Cider Apples. Free from any off-notes or adverse flavours.

Origin:� UK
Form (s):� Frozen
Packaging :� 1350kg IBCs or 250kg net frozen drums
Storage: Frozen (-18�C)
Shelf Life:� 6 months from production
Brix (at 20�C):� 69.0 � 72.0�, refractometric, uncorrected
pH: 4.0 Maximum
Starch:� May be present
Microbiological
standards
Total Count
(/g): Yeasts (/g):� Moulds (/g):� Pathogens:�
<1000 <100 <100 Absent

�

we have an option for a straight forward apple concentrate as below but this is not very high in tannins

�

Product: Apple Juice Concentrate, 70� Brix, 2.0 � 3.0% acidity,
(Normal Acid) with essence
Latin Name:� Malus x domestica
Warranty:� The product is manufactured in accordance with GMP and

HACCP and conforms with all relevant EU legislation. Juice
contents conform to AIJN Code of Practice.

General Description:� A straw � amber coloured clear viscous liquid, characteristic

of apple and free from any off-notes or adverse flavours.

Origin:� Processed in Germany from fruit of various origins.
Form (s):� Aseptic
Processing:� The Concentrate is prepared from sound, ripe fresh or deep

frozen fruits (100% of named fruit) which are cleaned and
inspected, juice mechanically extracted, concentrated and
aseptically filled. Essence re-added.

Packaging :� 25kg net aseptic bag-in-box or 265kg net aseptic Drum
Storage: Aseptic packs may be stored chilled (0-4�C) or frozen (-
18�C).
Shelf Life:� Chilled � 6 months from date of production
�Frozen � 12 months
Brix (at 20�C): 70.0 � 1.0, refractometric, uncorrected
pH: 3.0 � 0.3
Total Acidity: 2.5 � 0.5 % as Malic acid, to pH8.1

Density: 1.35
Microbiological
standards
Total Count

(/g): Yeasts (/g):� Moulds (/g):� Pathogens:�
<100 <10 <10 Absent

�

�

My option would be to use the bitter sweet concentrate and add malic acid as you say, I have some malic acid tablets, you mention malic acid from a bag, is this the same thing?

�

what are your thoughts on the data sheet for the bitter sweets is this the best product to start with or should i use the standard apple concentrate, will i get a decent tasting cider from it�if i correct the acidity or should i just accept the worse and have a cider free summer?

�

I assume a slow fermentation is best at a lower temp with the addition of a yeast nutrient rather than a faster higher temp ferment which would have less risk of sticking.

�

�

On Tuesday, 15 January 2013 13:39:40 UTC, Nick Bradstock wrote:

-----Original Message-----

First of all you need to beg forgiveness from the Goddess Pomona and from
half the members of this list for the sins you are about to commit ;-)

Andrew



An observation that 2 perfect halves balance each other perfectly - and that
in any case the good priest will give absolution after the sin (has been
committed and then confessed).

So what's the problem with AJC? �(I ask simply because I would like to know

if there are more problems than those Andrew has identified and remedied in
his response!)
Yours (rather tongue-in-cheekily)
Nick

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

�

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

�

[als chilli cider]

Normally the bitter sweet juice is only available in 250kg concentrate however this particular supplier has got 37kg left over from another order which he is willing to sell to us! We are hobbyist and there is 6 of us in our little group and are all disappointed to have no cider this year which is why we are turning to desperate measures.

We have costed this out 37kg of bittersweet costs £156 delivered and the min qty of apple concentrate is 25kg at £75 delivered. Split 3 ways (as 3 of pur group are not so keen) isn't too much outlay but if we have to buy both and blend this would be quite expensive and produce too much juice for us to handle, admitably we could refreeze the concentrate. But if we get rubbish cider then maybe we should give it a miss.

Unless of course our friend in Yorkshire wants to purchase the juice with us and split it?

[Andrew Lea]

On 15/01/2013 18:49, als chilli cider wrote:
>
>
> We have costed this out 37kg of bittersweet costs �156 delivered and
> the min qty of apple concentrate is 25kg at �75 delivered. Split 3
> ways (as 3 of pur group are not so keen) isn't too much outlay but if
> we have to buy both and blend this would be quite expensive and
> produce too much juice for us to handle, admitably we could refreeze
> the concentrate. But if we get rubbish cider then maybe we should
> give it a miss.
>

Oh that makes a lot more sense now you have given more detail! In that
event, your plan to use the bittersweet concentrate and bring the acid
up with malic seems a good option. You will get around 200L of juice
from your 37kg, and you probably need to bring the acid up from around 2
g/L to around 5 g/L. So you are looking at 3 * 200 = 600 grams of malic
acid to add. If it were me I would add that before you ferment so you
have a good pH to ferment at. Or maybe add half of it to start, and keep
the rest in reserve for fine tuning of the finished cider so you can be
more flexible. (I'm assuming pure powdered malic acid; I don't know what
malic tablets are but presumably they have some sort of binder
incorporated so they are not 100%).

Will be an interesting experiment!

Andrew

[Dibbs]

I'd be interested in some of the bittersweet certainly, but not the other stuff.  I'd be blending it with my cider made with desert apples.

 

Andrew, would it make sense to add sulphite to the concentrate and leave 24 hous before dilution?  I'm assuming I could add a lot less sulphite that way due to the lower volume and lower pH.  Then it would be mixed 50/50 with more acidic desert apple cider that is already fermenting.  I'm hoping to avoid adding malic acid that way.

[Andrew Lea]

On 16/01/2013 10:03, Dibbs wrote:
>
> Andrew, would it make sense to add sulphite to the concentrate and leave
> 24 hous before dilution? I'm assuming I could add a lot less sulphite
> that way due to the lower volume and lower pH.

Interesting thought. It isn't as straightforward as it seems though,
because the binding components which consume much of the SO2 will go up
pro-rata when concentrated. I worked through an example on my
spreadsheet (http://cider.org.uk/sulphite_binding.xls ) using the
default juice binding figures given there and increasing them 5x for a
concentrate (just to keep the arithmetic easy!).

For a target value of 50 ppm free SO2 (i.e. pH ca 3.5), it turns out
that you need about 3x as much total SO2 as if the juice were single
strength (ca 330 ppm vs 110 total SO2). But if you take into account a
pH drop on concentration, say from pH 3.5 to pH 3.2 (I'm guessing here
but I think it might be of that order), then you only need 25 ppm free
SO2 and your total required drops to only 2X (200 ppm).

In the specific case where you had a bittersweet conc at pH 4, and you
need a free SO2 of 150 ppm, you would need to add around 800 ppm total
SO2. If it were single strength and say it were at pH 4.2, you would
need around 280 ppm. etc etc. I will leave you to play around with
various possibilities.

Worth also bearing in mind that there is no published data AFAIK on the
effect of concentrating juice on sulphite binding. All the classic work
is on fresh juice. When we did the work reported here
http://cider.org.uk/ciderbind2.pdf, it was clear that there were lots of
anomalies showing up. There is every chance that concentrates will
themselves contain non-traditional sulphite binders such as
hydroxymethylfurfural which are not in the original juice but generated
on storage.

Andrew

[als chilli cider]

All sounds very interesting but slightly over the top of my head. I was going to order the concentrate but then the cost kept going up due to vat and the significant cost of malic acid and nutrients etc so we have now decided to not bother and wait until November before we start again. After all our group started making cider because we enjoyed the process, making from concentrate isn't what we are about.

So the source of the bittersweet concentrate is 'cobell's' in Exeter. If anyone else wants to purchase this rare 37kg last little qty of bittersweet English apple juice concentrate please feel free to contact them.

Thanks for all the help educating me about how it could have been done.
Alan

[Dibbs]

Thanks for that.  Very interesting.  It may be possible to get that particular concentrate "safe" without going over the 200ppm limit by sulphiting before dilution.  If it was going to be blended with some more acidic juice that is already fermenting that would seem to be the the way to go. No added malic required.  I appreciate that it would still be experimental but perhaps worth a try.