Keeving and Natural Fermentation

[AndyinDevon]

All

I hope this question is sensible enough? It's possible that if I just do a bit more reading around maybe I'd come to an answer but with plenty of experts amongst the group I thought i'd ask.

With a couple of years of cider making under my belt this year I'm turning my ideas to trying to ferment my cider without using a commercial strain of yeast. Instead, as described and inspired, in Andrew Leas book, to rely on natural methods of fermentation. The other option is to perhaps try keeving with some of the kits that are available? I do appreciate that these are two different methods and perhaps I'm missing the point by comparing two distinct methods of cider production? What I am trying to get a picture of is in terms of a finished cider what differences do these two methods make? Is there a significant difference? I also appreciate that the quality and type of the ingredients going in has a significant impact on the quality of the output. In this regard I may well be trying to achieve something that without the right blend and apple varieties is set to be mediocre or worse, regardless of method. Also, as a relative new comer I'm wary of perhaps trying to achieve something that is beyond the skills and time of someone who grows apples and makes cider for his own satisfaction and enjoyment. Certainly the keeving method does sound like it brings with it complexities that, as a home brewer, I may not be able to manage. What I would say is that I am pleased with the cider I produce with commercial strains of yeast so I suppose you could say why change?! For me I'm just interested to try something new, maybe more in keeping with more traditional cider methods and, as mentioned, potentially produce something with a new and different flavour to that which I normally create.

Any thoughts on comments on the above would be greatly received.

Many thanks

Andy

[Claude Jolicoeur]

AndyinDevon wrote:
> I hope this question is sensible enough? It's possible that if I just do a
> bit more reading around maybe I'd come to an answer but with plenty of
> experts amongst the group I thought i'd ask.

Quite sensible question...
One thing is that us, cider makers, drink cider rather often. Hence
there is some usefulness in producing diverse ciders so we don't have
the impression of always drinking the same thing - however good it
is...

The keeving process is mostly for obtaining sweet or medium ciders. A
successfully keeved cider will ferment slowly and is likely to stick
at a SG around 1.015 to 1.025, this being controllable by doing
stabilization rackings to control the fermentation speed and the final
SG.

Natural yeast fermentation is a playground. Ideally you would do 2
identical batches side by side, one with a commercial yeast and the
other with wild yeast. Then you invite your friends and take votes on
which is the better... Often wild yeast ferment more slowly and have
better chances to stick (if you help by racking), but at a lower SG
than a keeved cider, more likely around 1.008 - 1.010, which is fine
for making a medium-dry cider.

Have fun experimenting!
Claude

[Chris Rylands]

Hi Andy, the keeved ciders that i do, have no added yeast, no capden tablets, and some i have not used keeving kits. Success was fair, but in my opinion the lower amount of cider produced, made my failed batches worth the loss.  The aroma, residual sugars, lower alcohol percent, and the lack of a heavy yeast aftertaste is outstanding for my taste palette. Still without the right mix of apples, even keeved cider can turn out poor. Keeving kits raise your success rate considerably, and making sure that the SG, pH, Brix, are correct are far more important than with regular cider methods. However, in my opinion, the keeving process is really not that much harder than regular cider process. Its just that you need to think about things a bot differently. For me, i have friends who are home brewers of beer, and that seems far more of a hassle than keeving.

Chris

CiderSupply.com

  
Sent from my iPhone

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
 
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[AndyinDevon]

Hi Claude

Good to hear that you are as keen to drink cider as much as me ;-) All in the name of making better cider! I very much like the idea if doing two fermentations side by side and getting friends and family to give their opinion.

My personal favourite is medium sweet cider so by the sounds of it keeving is the option I want to take. My main nit is that the commercial yeast (normally a champagne yeast) takes the cider to a very dry finish. Wyeasts sell yeasts that claim to ferment to leave sweetness but I'm a bit dubious of these claims. From what I've read yeast is yeast really and it consumes sugar. Hence my search for a doing things differently this year.

With regards to keeving typically how many rackings might you expect to perform before bottling? Also, is it acceptable to Keeve either a single variety cider or a limited blend? I've access to a few varieties of apples but not a huge range. Lastly, are there any books out there or web resources (other than the fine cider workshop) on how to Keeve?

Chris, what you describe sounds excellent. My mouth is watering at the prospect of such wonderful cider! As a finished cider would you ever bottle it with some sugar to carbonate or would it naturally generate a light fizz in the bottle? Is it even possible to carbonate if you've racked it off to stick fermentation? I must admit that I do like a light fizz in my cider even if it might not be truly traditional.

Good times lie ahead!

Andy

[AndyinDevon]

P.S I've not been on the cider but I did make a right mess on replying to these posts and so there are a fair few deletes! I just felt like I should explain myself!

[AndyinDevon]

Chris

One question that does occur to me, when you say success was fair, roughly what is your failure rate like? Put another way when you keeve how likely are you to be successful? I have no real grasp on either what make it successful or not; and also why does this occur? Is it principally down to the absence of sulphiting increasing the risk of spoilage?

Andy

On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:17:53 PM UTC+1, AndyinDevon wrote:

[Claude Jolicoeur]

AndyinDevon wrote:
> My personal favourite is medium sweet cider so by the sounds of it keeving is the option I want to take. My main nit is that the commercial yeast (normally a champagne yeast) takes the cider to a very dry finish. Wyeasts sell yeasts that claim to ferment to leave sweetness but I'm a bit dubious of these claims. From what I've read yeast is yeast really and it consumes sugar. Hence my search for a doing things differently this year.

One of the tricks with Wyeast is to NOT use their packet of nutrients
that comes with the liquid yeasts. This way you have better chances of
having a slow manageable fermentation.

>
> With regards to keeving typically how many rackings might you expect to perform before bottling? Also, is it acceptable to Keeve either a single variety cider or a limited blend? I've access to a few varieties of apples but not a huge range. Lastly, are there any books out there or web resources (other than the fine cider workshop) on how to Keeve?

Number of rackings is highly dependant on the amount of natural
nutrients in the juice. If low to start with, just one stabilization
racking when SG is 0.005 higher than your target might be enough. But
if the fermentation speed is too fast, then you might to have to rack
earlier.

Single variety is OK - I did very good keved cider with Cortland SV.
The kits now available are so efficient, there is much less chances to
miss. The main thing is to use late maturing varieties, and to press
them when really ripe.

On books, you might have to wait until mine comes out - it is due in
August or September - it contains a good section on keeved ciders. I
would think there will be an announcement on this forum when it will
be available.... And if you read French, there is also a good one by
Baubuin.

Claude

[AndyinDevon]

Hi Claude

Thanks for the tip on using Wyeast, that's handy to know.

I'd be really interested to obtain a copy of your book when it comes out. If you don't mind could I PM you my details to be included on a mailing list to announce its release?

My French is poor so I suspect my efforts to read the book you suggest would involve heavy usage of the French to English dictionary! That said maybe I need to turn it on it's head and see it as an opportunity to become fully bilingual?!

The apples I press are all late maturing and last and the year before I was generally pressing in October/November.

My plan would be to site my fermenting vessel outside which would hopefully assist in cooler temps and a less speedy fermentation. From what you write is it perhaps more fair to say that keeving is more needy rather than massively more technical than cultured yeast fermentation? In that when the chapeau brun forms you need to rack at the right time and, as you suggest, if the fermentation speed is too fast and perhaps other examples? Maybe I shouldn't be worried about giving it a go after all.

Many thanks

Andy