bulk storage, aging of cider in IBCs and BiBs

[GilesN]

I am currently using  IBCs to ferment and age, but need something I can rely on the exclude oxygen

Following the various threads about bulk bag in box i decided to investigate. (Stainless tanks to expensive)

Here are some oxygen permeability figures I found for some options. The figure come from a variety of sources, and probably aren't directly comparable.

So my obvious conclusion is that a good IBC would be fine for long term storage/ aging, but a bulk BiB may well be better because of the head space issue.

The added cost of a BiB is around 2-3p oer litre so compares well with stainless tanks

One question that arises in my mind is the role of micro oxygenation in cider maturation, is it relevant? Also what levels of oxygen could be considered OK over 12-18 months?

Any thoughts?

 Giles

	comments	cc of O2/1000litres/24hrs	source
Schultz IBC mx 1000	Standard ibc	29.05	Manufacturer spec
Schultz IBC MXEV 1000	This has 6 layers including  an EVOH layer	0.19	Manufacturer spec
New Oak barrel		70-85	Various research papers
Saturated Oak Barrel	Liquid in barrel for more than 6 months	14.28	Extrapolated from this research
Auer 1000 litre liner		?
Smurfitkappa liner 1000L203N	EVOH  layer	14.4	Manufacturer spec
TPS 1000 litre liner		?
Peak Packaging metallised1000 litre liner	Met/pet barrier film	2.1	Manufacturer spec
LDPE  liner without barrier layer		3500

  

[Handmade Cider]

Hello Giles,

I have just bottled a batch of cider that has been sat in Schutz IBC since May 2014. When it went into the IBC it was at G1002, I also bottle conditioned a batch of the same cider. At the recent bottling session I opened and checked the bottle conditioned version against the tanked version and there was no perceptible difference in flavour apart from the impact of the dissolved co2. I did not check ph or titrable acidity but I did the gravity. The bottle conditioned version had stopped at G1000.5 and the tanked version was spot on G1000. The level of carbonation in the bottle I dont believe was high enough to stop the gravity drop, so I reckon the ingress of oxygen must have been the cause.

Denis

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015, Joint Cider of the Festival, Chippenham camra Beer Festival 2013

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2015 & 2014

Crazy Diamond – Third Prize Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2013

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[GilesN]

Denis,

reassuring to know that that amount of time in the IBC hasn't had a negative impact. I don't quite get why oxygen would stop the gravity drop. My limited experience is that the size of containers has an impact on the progression of the gravity drop, presumably because the temperature different between the top and bottom of a tank is greater than can be in a bottle meaning the yeast etc. are slower to settle out.

BTW do you know if your IBC has an oxygen barrier or is it a standard one

Giles

[Handmade Cider]

Giles,

it is the other way round, the tanked batch finished at a lower gravity than the bottled version. I doubt that the pressure in the bottle had any impact on the F.G. of the bottled cider as it is not heavily fizzy. I reckon the cider must be fairly low on nitrogen, which is why it stopped slightly higher than G1000 and in the tank, with the slight ingress of oxygen, i reckon the oxygen kept feeding the yeast to allow it to finish at G1000. The tank has needed fairly constant venting since it was filled in May '13, which is fine by me as the constant co2 production has stopped any chance of film yeast developing, but I was slightly surprised that it still needed venting this year as I thought it would have hit G1000 by the end of summer 2014.

Denis

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015, Joint Cider of the Festival, Chippenham camra Beer Festival 2013

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2015 & 2014

Crazy Diamond – Third Prize Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2013

[Giles Nicholson]

Yes, that makes sense to me now. What I wonder about the oxygenation is reading about it wine making additional oxygen is often introduced in very small quantities during the ageing process in order to develop specific nuances, where as in cider making the mantra seems to be that all oxygen after the active fermentation period is bad. But could the permeability of some vessels actually be advantageous at certain stages of ageing 

Giles

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[Handmade Cider]

Yes I am aware that alot of amateur winemakers advocate six monthly rackings to introduce oxygen. I think my taste test of the bottle conditioned cider against the IBC matured one illustrates that there is nothing to be gained form the oxygen permeability of the IBC. I also use oak and although I have no comparisons between oaked and unoaked cider, oxygen exposure is not on my lists of benefits.

One of the reasons for not exposing to oxygen may be the development of film yeast. As I have been trting to not use SO2 I suffer from film yeat on my ciders, yet the higher ABV products I make, hedgerow wines and cyser have never suffered from film yeast. Maybe film yeast is not tolerant to higher ABV's and this is why wine makers can be a bit more loose with oxygen exposure?

Denis

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015, Joint Cider of the Festival, Chippenham camra Beer Festival 2013

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2015 & 2014

Crazy Diamond – Third Prize Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2013

[Andrew Lea]

On 01/09/2015 18:45, Handmade Cider wrote:
>
> oxygen exposure is not on my lists of benefits.

Agreed.

> Maybe film yeast is not tolerant to higher ABV's and this is why
> wine makers can be a bit more loose with oxygen exposure?

That is true. Cider is in a vulnerable ABV range hence we have problems
with film yeast where winemakers don't.

Giles Nicholson wrote:
>
> What I wonder about the oxygenation is reading about it wine making
> additional oxygen is often introduced in very small quantities during
> the ageing process in order to develop specific nuances, where as in
> cider making the mantra seems to be that all oxygen after the active
> fermentation period is bad.

OK I don't have any experimental data but I will give you my take on why
micro-oxygenation is not appropriate for cider in storage.

As I understand it, micro-oxygenation is a technique applied to red
wines and is intended to mimic air transmission through a wooden barrel.
Most of its effects are on the chemistry of the (red) anthocyanin
pigments which do not occur in cider. In wine these can be 'smoothed
out' by various complex oxygen induced reactions to form
'pyroanthocyanins'. This cannot and does not happen in cider because
ciders don't have the same chemistry.

Air in stored cider is a 'bad thing' both from the microbiological point
of view (growth of undesirable aerobic bacteria with adverse flavour
implications - 'acetification') and from the chemical point of view
(development of 'sherry-like' aldehydes by coupled oxidation of
polyphenols).

Received wisdom for the last 350 years is that there are no beneficial
effects of oxygen on cider in storage. I see no reason to change this
view. But if some good data comes along to show otherwise then we might
need to think again.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[greg l.]

A big difference between red wine and cider is the slow development of flavours in red wine. At my higher temperatures I find that after 6 months cider is about as good as it is going to get. In cooler climates you might say 9 months. After this you might get some flavour development but not enough to make a big difference. With good red wine you are looking at 18 months minimum before the flavours settle, more than 2 years to really show their quality and 4 years for the very best red wines. Micro-ox and oak barrels allow a bit of acceleration of the ageing process, the oxygen hastens the development of tannins so the wine is saleable sooner. Wine in large tanks of 40 000 L is given micro-ox plus racks of oak staves to give them the sort of flavours consumers expect, maybe even back sweetened a bit to soften the flavour.

Greg

On Wednesday, 2 September 2015 18:12:55 UTC+10, Andrew Lea wrote:

[Handmade Cider]

" At my higher temperatures I find that after 6 months cider is about as good as it is going to get. In cooler climates you might say 9 months."

Interesting. You believe that temperature has an impact on maturing time Greg?

This would fit for me, I am always one of the last to start picking and I am genrally pressing still in January, so I expect my ciders to tae longer to mature but I cant comprehend putting a standard blended farmhouse dry cider on the market before the June after the year the fruit was picked. This year I put several ciders into the Bath and West and I knew that some just did not stand a chance as the acidity was still harsh and the tannins had not even developed what I call the year 1 level of maturity, let alone developing the 2nd years smokey depths. cider from my 2013 harvest in what I consider my 'winter blend' did not develop the full smokey depth till February or March this year!

Denis 

Denis France   www.handmadecider.co.uk   07590 264804  Company. No. 07241330

White Label – Champion Farmhouse Cider, Bath & West Show 2015, Joint Cider of the Festival, Chippenham camra Beer Festival 2013

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2015 & 2014

Crazy Diamond – Third Prize Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2013

[greg l.]

What I mean is that in my warm climate the fermentation finishes much sooner, followed by a few months of post-fermentation maturation. In a cool climate the fermentation takes much longer, though temperature probably does affect the speed of maturation. I think there are probably other factors involved as well.

Greg

[Sam Nightingale]

Hi Giles,

I'm impressed by the FIBC bag research you've done. What was your decision in the end after this dialogue about whether to use IBC or FIBC?

I invested in 2 x Hybrid 3 Cardboard FIBC systems last year at approx. £130 each that came with TPS liners. The liner code was 1000 Ltr. TPS 16262

I found that the cider I had stored in them became oxidised over a period of months.  So I am curious whether the bags I had were unsuitable for our type of usage, though I was advised at the time by the company (Fenton Packaging)  that they would be suitable.

I would like to use the FIBC system, and I know other cider makers are so your research is really helpful.  Do you have costings and sources for the liners?

Thanks once again.

Sam

Gibbet Oak Cider

[greg l.]

Looking at the Fenton website their bags don't appear to have a metallised barrier layer. Without the barrier layer they wouldn't be suitable for cider.

Greg

On Wednesday, 9 September 2015 23:36:35 UTC+10, Sam Nightingale wrote:

[GilesN]

TPS do both metallised and non metallised liners,unfortunately some of the packaging companies don't appreciate why a cider would be better off in a barrier liners. I was told that metallised liners were only needed for wine. I'll get back with the prices once I'm back on my pc

Giles

[GilesN]

Sam not sure if you got my private message, if not email me giles(at)mammothwillow.co.uk and I will give you the email addresses for the two liner makers I have actual samples from that i am trialling : Peak Packaging, 2x metallised pillow shaped £58 inclusive and Smurfit Kappa 416 euros for 16 including delivery from Germany (evoh barrier and fits an IBC with the top of the plastic cut off, so could be stacked if the cage is kept intact.) So yes I am trying the liners out , mainly because of the head space issue as to date apart from film yeast IBCs have worked for me (10 months with the cider still improving).

Andrew , belated thank you for your response. I went back and did so more searching re micro oxygenation and couldn't find any really consistent empirical evidence of how it works in wines, except that mostly it is described as a method of "tannin management" as per   Greg's comments. Is there anything out thererof value that I could read on how aging works in cider? 

Giles

[Sam Nightingale]

Hi there,

Following on from this conversation, I've been in touch with TPS and they have the metallised liners, but unfortunately would only be able to sell a minimum of 8 liners, and I only need 2 for now.

Does any other cider makers have any spare TPS liners that they might be prepared to sell? Otherwise would anyone be interested in splitting the cost of 8 liners with me?

If any one can help or this is of interest, please could you send me a private email sam(at)gibbetoak.co.uk or call me 07788973968.

Warm regards,

Sam

Gibbet Oak Cider,

Tenterden, Kent.

[Wine-and-Tools]

Hi Giles,

I will be quite intersted in sharing about IBC and other technology related to HDPE uded for Cider maturation.

Could you share phone number ?

[JezH]

Hi all,

Just a gentle reminder that if you wish to share personal details like telephone number etc., its probably safest to do it off list.

All the best

Jez

[Wes Cherry]

From my experience, IBCs are not suitable for long term cider storage.   I think even barrels are too much oxygen for all but the most tannic ciders.  I have had zero luck sourcing the MXEV IBCs from Shultz in less than container load quantities, but they do seem ideal for cider storage, perhaps even blocking too much O2.

IBCs are great for fermentation though.  The extra oxygen then can only help things.

-Wes

[Michael Thierfelder]

We'd, I also looked into the MXEV IBC from Schutz but found the same thing. I Wonder if it would make sense to try to organize a group purchase for a West coast delivery.

The comparable solution, although much more expensive I think are the flex tank IBC's, they run $1000 without fittings, or $1200 with butterfly valve, sample valve, and racking cane. I ended up buying a few of these but I'd be very interested in the Schutz totes.

Do you happen to know how many totes are in 1 container?

[CiderSupply.com]

What is a tote made of MXEV? I know of a company that has 250 gal Schultz Totes in super condiition that had food grade vedtable glicerine in them only used once. Is there a tag or stamp on the tank somewhere indicating MXEV?

Best regards
Chris Rylands

[michael thierfelder]

It’s a 6-layer plastic (much thicker than standard), including an EVOH (intended to prevent O2 permiation) that is supposed to minimize oxidation significantly. I’ve never seen them in real life, or heard of anyone who sells them 1 by 1. Maybe Myers Container Services in North Portland but unsure. I’ve always just heard, container full or nothing. I’d be into buying 5 or 6 at least if we can get enough interest to purchase a full container.

Mike

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[Wes Cherry]

I just made a call to Myers Containers to get a minimum order and price on the MX-EV FDA.  Contact me off list if you are interested in taking part in the order.    I’ll also propose it to the nwcider association.

Myers is in Portland Oregon.

https://www.schuetz-packaging.net/downloads/datenblaetter-ibc/datenblatt-ecobulk-mx-ev-fda/datasheet-schuetz-ecobulk-mx-ev-fda-en.pdf?cid=24k

-'//es Cherry

W...@dragonsheadcider.com

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Mike Lachelt]

Hi all,

MXEV IBCs sound very appealing. However, in my experience, the ingress of oxygen in standard IBC tanks is largely due to their lousy closures. This is evident upon closing the tanks at the end of fermentation. Some tanks swell, indicating a successful seal. Far too often, they don’t, which means racking almost immediately after fermentation has finished. I’ve tried all sorts of different caps. Some are better than others, but none work perfectly. Success seems to require a “je ne sais quois” compatibility between male threads on the tank, and female threads on the caps. This has been a rampant problem for me across leagues of tanks and lids, with the result that absurd monitoring near the end of fermentation is required.

If the closures on the MXEV are the same as on their standard IBCs - as they appear to be - then I can’t see any benefit to their impermeable walls. Interest in the tanks suggests to me that others are not having any trouble with the standard closures, which I find baffling. Is there a trick I’m unaware of?

Thanks,
Mike

[michael thierfelder]

I have had good luck sealing IBCs, I think the main point of closure is the lid seal not the threads though. The seal marries up against the lip of the bottle, the threads provide grip to ensure tightness of the seal. I’d inspect the lip of your totes, I’ve had more than a few that were not level or flat. Once I surfaced them with a hand plane they did much better.

I’ve also heard people suggest dropping the lid seals in very hot water to return them to their original profile shape, or just replace them entirely with a silicon seal (rather than high density foam).

Mike

[Wes Cherry]

And avoid Basco lids (the blue ones with two ports).  They have a lip that prevents sealing, at least on Schuetz totes.    It’s really difficult to carve the lip to  make them work.

-Wes

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[Ian Shields]

Would it be possible to use some sort of metalised paint on the outside surface of eg an HDPE blue barrel to reduce oxygen permeability? 

Ian

On 5 January 2018 at 20:14, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote:

And avoid Basco lids (the blue ones with two ports).  They have a lip that prevents sealing, at least on Schuetz totes.    It’s really difficult to carve the lip to  make them work.

-Wes

On Jan 5, 2018, at 10:21 AM, michael thierfelder <anima...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have had good luck sealing IBCs, I think the main point of closure is the lid seal not the threads though.  The seal marries up against the lip of the bottle, the threads provide grip to ensure tightness of the seal.  I’d inspect the lip of your totes, I’ve had more than a few that were not level or flat.  Once I surfaced them with a hand plane they did much better.

I’ve also heard people suggest dropping the lid seals in very hot water to return them to their original profile shape, or just replace them entirely with a silicon seal (rather than high density foam).

Mike

On Jan 5, 2018, at 9:49 AM, Mike Lachelt <mlac...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

MXEV IBCs sound very appealing.  However, in my experience, the ingress of oxygen in standard IBC tanks is largely due to their lousy closures.  This is evident upon closing the tanks at the end of fermentation.  Some tanks swell, indicating a successful seal.  Far too often, they don’t, which means racking almost immediately after fermentation has finished.  I’ve tried all sorts of different caps.  Some are better than others, but none work perfectly.  Success seems to require a “je ne sais quois” compatibility between male threads on the tank, and female threads on the caps.  This has been a rampant problem for me across leagues of tanks and lids, with the result that absurd monitoring near the end of fermentation is required.

If the closures on the MXEV are the same as on their standard IBCs - as they appear to be - then I can’t see any benefit to their impermeable walls.  Interest in the tanks suggests to me that others are not having any trouble with the standard closures, which I find baffling.  Is there a trick I’m unaware of?  

Thanks,
Mike

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[Michael Thierfelder]

It's a 6-later process, much thicker than standard totes. I'd assume it would have a sticker on it somewhere but I haven't ever seen one in real life so just a guess.

Mike Thierfelder

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Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 10:10:16 AM
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: bulk storage, aging of cider in IBCs and BiBs

 

What is a tote made of MXEV? I know of a company that has 250 gal Schultz Totes in super condiition that had food grade vedtable glicerine in them only used once. Is there a tag or stamp on the tank somewhere indicating MXEV?

Best regards
Chris Rylands

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[Wes Cherry]

MXEV totes are an anomaly and not readily source able.   They are specialty IBCS for solvents, pesticides and oxygen sensitive foods.    They contain a layer of EVOH (ethylene vinyl alcohol) which blocks diffusion of oxygen and other small molecules.

Finding one in the wild would be rather unlikely.  

Re-using a glycerin IBC for cider should be fine.  If anything it’ll improve mouthfeel!  I don’t think glycerin would require MXEV totes.

Ian:

I don’t think a metalized paint would block O2 much as paint since it won’t make a uniform metal layer - more of a matrix of metal particles in the paint binder.  To apply any sort of metalized layer, would require vacuum deposition of metal vapor (mylar is made this way).

Mike and I are continuing work on a bulk order of MXEV totes, potentially with delivery to Seattle and Portland.   Cost is looking like $300-$325 each.  These will probably have 9” diameter lids for easier cleaning.  Contact me or Mike off list if you are interested.

-Wes

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[Chris Price]

Hi Giles thanks for your very interesting info about tank porosity, We are organic winemakers here in Portugal and have been using Shütz  IBC tanks as storage for red wine initially till malolactic fermentation is finished. I had not found out the permeability of the Schütz IBC  but it seems to be ideal in between a new and an old oak barrel ( as per your table). Initially we bought these used ( only syrop) tanks at a local market for 75€ as more stainless tanks were too expensive but after reading about microxygenation and Flextanks it seemed to me that an adapted Shülz IBC could do the job at a fraction of the cost. We solved the headspace and closure problem by making  2 small holes on the top of the tank  left and right with a screw and washer valve  to close, then filling the tank and allowing air to come out of the holes before closing filling  the airspace either side of the opening. We added a header tube to the cap as well and  this reduces air space to a minimum. I can send fotos. We also cover the tanks with a black plastic sheet to stop light getting in. Maybe there are organisms which multiply a and give off flavours when enough light gets in. Now if I put a stainless steel bulkhead valve just above the lees I almost have a Flextank for about 200€ ! Interestingly we are in Portugals apple growing region. maybe this is a good omen to start making cider!
thanks again
www.vinhoscortem.com
Chris Price

[Eric Tyira]

Photos would be great!

Br,

Eric Tyira

--

[Adam]

Agree, love to see some pics!

We have had good experiences bulk aging all of our production in schutz IBC for up to 9 months at a time but always looking for ways to adapt and upgrade our setup.

I have also heard of some producers taking a similar approach to the point where the IBC is are filled, vented, gassed, sampled and racked without ever leaving their stack.

I have been maybe unnecessarily cautious about drilling on the IBC container for fear of creating a start to a crack or split.