Forced carbonation with pasteurisation

[Scott Jones]

I'm going to be using a carbonating machine to force carbonate my cider, I'm curious about when to pasteurise, it would make sense to me to pasteurise at the very end of the process to make sure when the cap is put on there is no chance of contamination.
How does the carbonated cider react to 20 mins in hot water. Does it make it flatter in which case it might be an idea to over carbonate to compensate?
Thanks

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Scott Jones wrote:

I'm going to be using a carbonating machine to force carbonate my cider, I'm curious about when to pasteurise, it would make sense to me to pasteurise at the very end of the process to make sure when the cap is put on there is no chance of contamination.
How does the carbonated cider react to 20 mins in hot water. Does it make it flatter in which case it might be an idea to over carbonate to compensate?

It would certainly not be a good idea to over-carbonate... The pressure in the bottles will increase markedly when at high temperature. The more carbonation you have, the more you increase the risk of exploding bottles. General guidelines for pasteurized carbonated cider is to carbonate to no more than 2.5 vols of CO2 and to use only top quality Champagne type bottles.
Claude

[Rich Anderson]

Carbonate first, fill and cap then pasteurize. Several things to keep in mind, as cider heats it expands, so for starters fill the bottle to its rated capacity, this should insure ample head space. Second use a bottle that is rated for carbonated products. Three, do not over carbonate perhaps 2 volumes is adequate, you are not trying to make champagne. By all means put the caps on securely otherwise you will lose the carbonation during pasteurization. You can determine your success by looking at the bottles when they come out of the pasteurizer, if you see a lot of little bubbles trickling up you know that you have a "leaker". Drink it anyway:)

[pkb]

Is champagne with a sweetened dosage pasteurized? If not, it seems it would have the same problem of the sugar in the dosage fermenting with residual yeasts.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

The beauty of Champagne and the riddling / disgorging process is that there is no residual yeast. The process is just as efficient as a sterile filtration. In practice, they probably add sorbate and/or sulfite with the dosage... However, pasteurization is not done.

[pkb]

Interesting. I must apprentice at a great champagne house to learn their secrets. For cider, I often employ an abbreviated riddling/ disgorging process that elimates almost all lees, and renders a clear, bright, and pleasantly effervescent cider. Perhaps I have developed a taste for dry cider, but I find all the angst about back sweetening a little bit overwrought. Too many compromises and much fiddling for a very marginal improvement. if I really feel the need to sweeten a bit to adjust for acidity, a few drops of simple syrup in the glass does the trick.

[Chris Rylands]

Yes Claude...and Especially good when the riddled liquid is keeved cider. 

Chris.

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[Tim]

I think you will find the standard 500ml crown top bottles are totally safe to use, it is what the industry use, as I do myself. Rarely get one break.

 

Tim in Dorset

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[Andrew Lea]

No it isn't pasteurised. In food microbiology we have the very useful
concept of 'hurdles' to microbial growth. In dosage-sweetened champagne
three 'hurdles' are much higher than in the ciders we've been discussing.

1. Virtually all yeasts are removed by disgorging and those that remain
are mostly dead or crippled after such a long period (years) of
autolysis at high CO2 pressure.

2. The alcohol level is about twice as high as in a cider. This inhibits
renewed yeast growth.

3. The CO2 pressure is at least twice as high (6 bar) as it is in a
carbonated cider. At this pressure yeast growth is prevented (even
though any viable yeasts can remain viable, they can't grow).

For all those reasons sweetened champagne is typically stable if well
made. However, as I think Jason from Ashridge pointed out a few months
ago, the quality of the disgorging is a very critical factor in ensuring
this and it can go wrong from time to time.

Andrew


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near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Scott Jones]

I forgot to say that my plan was to use a machine that carbonates and fills the bottles, then with the uncapped bottle pasteurise in a bath for 20 mins, that is why I asked about losing carbonation, I was wondering about hot water and 20 mins uncapped whether it would lose a lot of the co2 that I'd put into the cider,
Sorry for the missing info on the first post

[Claude Jolicoeur]

If you pasteurise your bottles without caps, yes for sure you will lose most of the carbonation... With heat, all dissolved CO2 will escape.

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/01/2015 01:05, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
> If you pasteurise your bottles without caps, yes for sure you will lose
> most of the carbonation... With heat, all dissolved CO2 will escape.

And the mess!! Foam everywhere!!