71b fermentation temperatures and risks

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Wayne Bush

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Nov 22, 2021, 3:53:30 PM11/22/21
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I have a floating lid tank of about 1200 litres of juice, 12 ppm free sulphite after 24 hours, pH 3.4, well aerated when poured into the tank, clarified nicely with pectin enzyme, layer of CO2 on top, erbsloh vitadrive  nutrient added at same time as innoculation with 71b at a juice temperature of about 12.5 degrees centigrade.  A week on, no fermentation, I'm sure because temperatures have been around 11 degrees during the day.  In previous years I have always heated up the room in similar circumstances to get the fermentation to begin, and it always kicks off at close to 15 degrees.  However, I'm travelling and not able to easily arrange to heat it this time.  I've always wondered in the past whether patience with the lag phase would have paid off in maybe a nice, slower fermentation getting under way, and I thought I would just cross my fingers with this one for a couple weeks.  But I'm wondering what are the risks of doing so?  Forecast is for high temperatures ranging between 4 and 9 degrees over the next ten days.  My question is, what is the risk of simply leaving this cider for another 15 days with no intervention, assuming fermentation doesn't start?  It is reasonably well protected, although I guess some mould could form.  Is it safe to wait and see?  As always, grateful for advice.  Best, Wayne

Kjell Tore Sagen

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Nov 23, 2021, 4:48:53 AM11/23/21
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Not an answer to your question, but for reference I use 71B in my cellar where the temperature is stable at 11 degrees, and I get a very active fermentation 24 - 36 hours after pitching. If it took more than a week or so, I would probably assume that it had failed, and that any fermentation after that might be wild yeast. I would probably re-pitch, taking care not to cold shock the yeast.

Kjell

O K

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Nov 23, 2021, 5:21:33 AM11/23/21
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I pitched 71B about 10 days ago having prepped it per the instructions and pre-sulphited 48 hrs in advance at 1/2 the amount recommended for a full kill in Lea’s book. Did other batches with QA23 and S-04 at the same time. QA23 took off right away with a rapid ferment. S-04 followed a few days later with a slower ferment, but so far, nothing doing with 71B. My wild yeast control lot, sulphited per the others, has yet to move also, so I’m happy to wait until that takes off before intervening with the 71B batch. I agree with the comment below that if 71B eventually moves, it’s likely to be a wild yeast and not 71B, by then. A few weeks earlier, another 71B lot did not take off either (even when I moved the containers indoors) - that had been pre-treated with the full amount recommended for a complete kill. Eventually I innoculated with QA23 and it took off. Through all of this, temperatures have been very mild, above 12C.

Looking at the ‘killer factor’ numbers for these yeasts, 71B seems to be the weakest - should I therefore assume this also means the least vigorous? The 71B lots were just some experiments to see if I would get the claimed 20% acid reduction and how it affected taste.

Kjell - how do you prepare the 71B in advance of pitching, or do you pitch directly into the juice?

I see 2 carboys of 40% Gilly, are fermenting fine, but are a pale cloudy yellow - very different from all of the others. Anyone know if this is typical of Gilly?

Regards, Olly



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Kjell Tore Sagen

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Nov 23, 2021, 6:07:01 AM11/23/21
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After rehydrating with water for 20 minutes in small containers, I gradually add in small amounts of the cold juice into the starter, bringing the temperature down over about 10 - 15 minutes. 71B isn't supposed to be subjected to sudden temperature drops of more than 10°, I pitch when the starter is at about 15°.

dave pert

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Nov 23, 2021, 1:31:02 PM11/23/21
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I've arrived at the following method for pitching yeast into cold musts:

- Make a starter at room temp, 18-20 degrees C, use goferm as well. This way you're not trying to safely reduce the temp by 25 degrees in 20 mins, which I've always struggled to do without killing the yeast
- Let the starter get fully going at room temperature, which seems to take around 24-36 hours using goferm.  This means that the yeast has got over the lag phase in fairly optimal conditions and shouldn't be stressed
- Take the starter out to the shed the main container is in and leave for about 12 hours, for it to arrive at the same temperature. Theory is that the massive, thriving yeast population in the starter just cools down and get a bit less active
- Pitch into main container, no cold shock whatsoever to the yeast, and they seem to take hold fairly quickly

71B seems to get stressed really easliy, I've had barrels farting out copious quantities of H2S during the early stages in the past, thankfully it seemed to blow itself out and didn't taint the cider, though I did reactively treat with Fermaid-O just to give it a hand. Worth doing a full kill with SO2 when using it, needs all the help it can get

gareth chapman

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Nov 23, 2021, 1:51:02 PM11/23/21
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I always do similar with my inoculated yeast ferments and run a starter for a few days. I do a small batch starter in a 5 litre demijohn with nutrient and about 25g of yeast. 
I start it off in the house and then move it to the cider shed overnight before pitching. I would pitch that amount into anything between a 200l barrel and a 100l IBC, would expect to see decent fermentation within a few days at the most.
It was a slow starting batch of 71B that started me using this method.

Wayne Bush

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Nov 23, 2021, 3:53:55 PM11/23/21
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Hey gang--thanks for all the replies!  Kjellsagen (sorry using your e-mail address--I miss the old google groups where we actually saw people's names!)  I'm glad to know that you routinely get good fermentations at 11 degrees--that is reassuring.  Dpert and chappers, I really like your method--wish I had thought of it!  I follow the rehydration instructions on the package--rehydrating the yeast at around 40 degrees and letting it cool down to within 10 degrees of the must.  Trouble with this method is that once the ferment gets started it doesn't cool down sufficiently in the time that the package says you should add it into the tank.  What I do is slowly cool it down by mixing in cider from the tank until it is within 10 degrees of tank temperature.  The rehydration nutrient that I used supposedly helps to protect the yeast and minimize bad things happening down the road, but I am not a scientist and I only know what the manufacturers say on the label.  But I think getting a really good ferment going in a smaller container that you then introduce to the shed temperature and let it acclimate before adding to the tank would be a much smarter move.  O K, I wondered the same thing about whether any eventual fermentation would be wild yeast rather than the 71b.  However, I've used 71b for a few years, and I think (I hasten to emphasize think because sensory analysis is subjective) that you can usually tell quite a difference between 71b and wild fermentation--at least with the fruit I use.  First, in my experience, 71b does notably reduce the acidity, or at least converts enough malic to lactic that the perception is of much lower acidity.  Second, when I have used 71b the fruity and "clean" character of the cider does appear more pronounced than with wild fermentation.  So I think I will be able to perceive the difference if the 71b does in the end dominate the fermentation.  What I'm happiest about from all of your replies is that no one has said the cider is likely to spoil before some kind of fermentation occurs, which was my concern.  Am I right in inferring that from your comments?  Or is it just wishful thinking?   I am also wondering whether the slowness to start has to do with the size of the tank--nearly 1200 litres--so perhaps it takes longer for a slowly developing fermentation to be apparent in the SG measurement?  

gareth chapman

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Nov 23, 2021, 4:43:52 PM11/23/21
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I'm sure the cider will be fine, I have had wild fermentations take up to 3 or 4 weeks to get going without any issues.
I agree with regards to the acid reduction of 71B I did the comparisons a few years ago, to improve some dessert fruit blends, and I also agree it does leave  a clean apply flavour. I use 71b for all of my met trad bulk fermentation followed by EC-1118 for the secondary in bottle, specifically for the cleaness of flavour. 

mannp...@gmail.com

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Nov 25, 2021, 8:34:14 AM11/25/21
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71B seems a bit tricky - I have also had trouble getting it started. But once it gets going, it is quite robust and vigorous, even at lower temperatures. I have found that initially elevating the temperature will help kick it off. 

Patrick
1785 Cider
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