Brett in cider

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I might be starting another controversial discussion here...

I have noticed - at least here in Quebec - that there is a growing number of commercial cideries that produce ciders that are voluntarily inoculated with brettomicaes yeast. This makes ciders that have a strong barnyard aroma and flavor, somewhat reminiscent of some funky farm ciders as we can get in Europe.

I am a bit puzzled by this. From what I understand (but I might be wrong) this would come from beer making. Apparently there are some old traditional breweries in Belgium where the beer is naturally strongly flavored by Brett, and brewers elsewhere in the world have used some selected Brett strains to emulate the flavor of these traditional beers. And this tendency would have migrated to cider making?

So I'd like to hear from cider makers who make ciders with Brett. What is the reason? Is it for maketing and attracting to cider some beer drinkers? Or is it to emulate the flavor of European farm ciders? I am curious...

[Nick MacLean]

Hi Claude,

I made a few ciders in the past with various commercial Brett strains, as well as from the dregs of Belgian "Lambic" style beers. I did it because I was using store bought juice, and hoped the brett would add more dimension. The lesson I learned there was, to make good cider you need good juice. 

I do agree though, that it is likely to attract craft beer drinkers. Here, where I am in the US, IPA's were the rage 10 years ago. Local brewers would always "one up" each other for the most ridiculous IPA they could put together. More recently, the trend has been for "sour beers" which are much more trendy nowadays. Some trendy sours are so ridiculously acidic, they would probably take the enamel off my teeth.  My guess would be they are trying to pull the trendy craft beer drinkers over to cider, the ones who love trying "new" styles.  Personally, I'm a little worn out by the extremes, but everyone has their own tastes I suppose.

Nick

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[Dick Dunn]

Claude - Controversial or not, I think you have fertile ground for a good
discussion.

I've been interested for a long time in the particular phenol-related
flavors of ciders from England's West Country and Three Counties, and it
seems Normandy and Brittany as well. Here's some of what I think I've
learned.
Background: These flavors in their traditional ciders come from the three
4-ethyl-{phenol;catechol;guaiacol} compounds, produced during malo-lactic
fermentation by lactobacillus, not entirely clear which species and
strains. Careful tasting notes call out phenolic, spicy, smoky, farmyard,
etc., to the different 4-ethyl-*.
These compounds have very strong tastes/aromas, and there are plenty of
their precursors in the mentioned ciders, but the conversion efficiencies
are very low; it seems the bacteria produce them only as a side-effect and
not to any obvious biological purpose.
(I hope here, as well as in what follows, Andrew will step in to set me
back on the right path!)

But now: Brett, Brettanomyces bruxellensis (Brussels) as you mention, in
brewing beer. It can also produce these ethylphenols, although not in the
same proportions as we might expect from cider MLF. Moreover, Brett is a
yeast, so it will keep going as long as it has sugar available and any sort
of reasonable environment. Hence it can produce ethylphenols in copious
quantities, given the chance, and not necessarily in the proportions you'd
like. The result can knock your socks off (or at least smell like it did).
Why we'd want this in cider, I cannot imagine.

There's another side, and to be fair it's been used wisely. Tom Oliver, a
Herefordshire cider and perry maker, has used a Brett post-fermentation to
good advantage in his Gold Rush. The key here is that the Brett has been
introduced late, so that the yeast doesn't have unbounded food and can be
controlled. Even at that it can be somewhat challenging; I've had versions
of the Gold Rush which were tops in competition but others found to be "over
the top" in the Brett-related character and hence not quite at the top.
I respect Tom and what he's doing; part of it is "tweaking the dragon's
tail", being on the edge but not just jumping over.

Brewers in North America seem to be fermenting with any culture they can,
including whatever drifts in on the winds except they're not in Brussels
where the air has the good stuff. Sour, funky, stinky; it seems nothing is
a fault in beer any more. "This too shall pass" but again as I said, I
cannot imagine why we want it in cider. I think we'll just have to wait it
out until people get tired of spoilage-flavors. In the meantime, we should
maybe offer that "not everything which is possible is actually desirable"?

> --

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Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Miguel Pereda]

As long as he does not damage the olfactory and gustatory senses of others with his potions, everyone is free to make and consume whatever fermentations he likes. In Spanish cider, the brett is the devil.

Miguel A. Pereda

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

In Québec, my feeling is that because we have little if any cider background and consumer do not have access to foreign cider (even ciders from New England or neibourhood provinces), beer evolution seems to be what drives cidermakers. I've seen a lot of rosé ciders, hopped ciders, barrel aged cider (previously containing spirit), brett ciders, a lot of fruit ciders, etc. I haven't seen much keeved ciders or ciders featuring cider apples for example.... The most inovative cideries are now using wildings and natural yeast though.

I've tasted a brett cider once 4-5 years ago and it was way too much. Brett coming along with other microorganism in fermentation can be acceptable I think but a pure brett fermentation is way too intense.

I asked to the SAQ (the public organisation selling alcohol) why no ciders were imported from abroad. They told me that it was so hard selling Quebec ciders, they didn't see reasons to import any from abroad. If they would use this strategy with other beverages like wine, they would certainly sell less than they do now..... Ciders from UK, France or Spain would certainly lead consumer and producers to enjoy and produce something different.

Louis

[rhand...@centurytel.net]

My favorite story about Brett's is from attending a sensory analysis seminar by Peter Mitchell a number of years ago. One of ciders he presented was in my opinion flawed, really over the top Brett's , one that I would have dumped. But no he said the cider was purposely made and sold by a midwestern cider maker. Having said that, I still enjoy a bit of Brett's in the Normandy ciders I have tasted over the years and have found a bit of it in an inexpensive Spanish cider we get locally.

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[Cillian Breathnach]

Personally I actually like the flavour profile that some bretts like claussenii bring. Brett c brings a lot of tropical fruit notes and very slight funk. One of my personal favourites was a Brett c batch I made a few years ago. There was no funk, but the fruit flavours were out of this world. 

I reckon live and let live. One man’s medicine is another man’s poison. Hands up here who likes vegemite. I can’t stand the stuff but accept that others do. Some people swear by EC1118, others by ale yeasts.  Hops weren’t always used in beer until some guy one day said « you know what’d go well with this.... ». 

Cillian Breathnach 

Verger à Ti-Paul.

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

For my part, as Miguel wrote, I don't really mind if one cider maker makes bretty cider and has customers who enjoy it.

But... where I get disturbed, is that in general people here in Quebec have very little education on cider, on what a good cider should be. Very few people have actually tasted a good bottle from France, UK, Spain Germany or US. This is in good part because our SAQ (as Louis mentioned) only sells local ciders, and the only way to taste foreign ciders is either to travel, or by private imports. Then some of these trendy cideries promote bretty ciders, claiming it is good cider, and people hear this and get to thing this is how good cider should taste. For me, this is the main problem...

[Eric Tyira]

Claude 

Sounds like a business opportunity.  Can you convince someone to become an importer?  I have no idea how that works in CA. 

Is it possible for you to hire folks to do tastings at stores, festivals, etc. to show them how a good cider really tastes?  Maybe you can pay them in cider. 

Eric

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 11:10 PM Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

For my part, as Miguel wrote, I don't really mind if one cider maker makes bretty cider and has customers who enjoy it.

But... where I get disturbed, is that in general people here in Quebec have very little education on cider, on what a good cider should be. Very few people have actually tasted a good bottle from France, UK, Spain Germany or US. This is in good part because our SAQ (as Louis mentioned) only sells local ciders, and the only way to taste foreign ciders is either to travel, or by private imports. Then some of these trendy cideries promote bretty ciders, claiming it is good cider, and people hear this and get to thing this is how good cider should taste. For me, this is the main problem...

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[Cillian Breathnach]

Ah ok i see your point Claude. The lack of cider from other countries certainly does have an impact on the market here, but the market had to be there also for the SAQ to justify importing and marketing it. It’s actually the main reason I started making cider myself. Although there are many excellent ciders on the market here in Quebec now, back when I started making cider what was available here commercially was often a very sweet drink that would saturate most people’s bodies tolerance for sugar after a single glass. I couldn’t find anything close to a dry or even semi dry cider that I was used to back in Ireland. I still have conversations with quebecors about cider and their initial reaction is to pucker up their fave and say « j’aime pas ça, c’est ben trop sucré ». Theres definitely a lot of education to do among the general public. 

RE Brett, there are trends in almost all drinks. Organic wines, orange wines, gins and that’d not even mentioning the multitude of IPAs that saturated the market for so long. But again, I’ve had fantastic bretted ciders and some really god awful ones too. It’s a tool in the toolkit, it’s up to the craftperson to use it well I guess. One upside to the incorporation of Brett in cider is it does attract a few of the beer drinkers toward trying out cider and thereby grows the market. A rising tide lifts all boats. 

Cillian Breathnach 

Verger à Ti-Paul

Québec 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 17 mars 2021 à 06:57:46 UTC-4, Eric Tyira a écrit :

Sounds like a business opportunity.  Can you convince someone to become an importer?  I have no idea how that works in CA. 

There are already some importers, but they mostly sell to restaurants. In general these restaurants buy from private importers in order to have selections (mostly of wines but also sometimes ciders) that are not available elsewhere, and that the general public cannot buy at the SAQ stores.

And hence there are a few restaurants and crèperies who have on their card some good imported ciders. But very few...

[Martin Thoburn]

Thanks for brining up an interesting topic Claud.

I Imagine the trend or use is a multitude or factors. 

1. Barnyard and Funky ciders are associated with good traditional english ciders and are becoming accepted by cider drinkers in North America.

2. Sour beers are popular and fermenting with Brett and other yeast alternatives is being expanded upon. 

3. Cider makers are trying to experiment with obtaining obtain new flavors especially if they don't have access to unique fruit.

To my understanding is that Brett can occurs naturally in cider as it can be found on the skin of the apple (I read that in your book Claude). 

Sounds like most of the funk in traditional english ciders are from MLF and LAB, but they could also have some Brett as well, especially a wild ferment without sulfites.

Funny enough I actually inoculated two ciders last fall with 100% Brett, so I'll know soon how they taste.  I'm just a home cider maker so I like experimenting and learning, don't care if I fail or if it is traditional or not.  How it tastes will be TBD.  But I got the idea since I've had such great results with the WLP616 - White Labs Funky Cider Yeast vault strain.  it is a blend of two Saccharomyces strains combined with some Brettanomyces and Lactobacillus.  

So I don't really see the difference between using a Cultured Yeast vs a Wild Yeast and using a cultured Brettanomyces vs wild Brettanomyces.  Unless you think there should be no Brett in cider at all, I can understand that, but if the flavor of Barnyard and Funk tastes good then what does it matter?

I can say that the Kingston Black Cider I submitted to GLINTCAP in 2019 in the non-comercial category received the best in class award for Traditional Cider and was rated a top score of 50 out of 50 by one of the top cider-makers in the USA.  It also happened to us the The Funky Cider Yeast strain above that had Cultured Brettanomyces and Lactobacillus.  There was no way for the judge to know what yeast I used but the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

I see no reason why not to use Lab generated cultures of any kind unless the argument is that one should only make cider using what natures gives us by chance.  I like cider made that way too, but cultured strains have their own affect that can be desirable.

I get it that it maybe coming from Beer culture, but I'd rather they experiment with unique cultures of fermenting than putting hops and chai spice in the cider.

-Martin

[Denis Rousseau]

If I may add my two cents, I am on the other end of the spectrum.  I am a small craft cider producer in Quebec working with true english cider apples I grow.  My cider is bone dry, but flavorful.  So I get the other comments that it is too acidic (surette) and not sweet enough!!  So yeah, still need to educate 🙂.

Interestingly, I had a few folks from England that said it reminded them of home so I guess I am not too far off 🙂

as for Brett, I personnaly don't get it as in theory it is viewed as a defect not a desired flavor.  So not my cup of tea...

Denis

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De : cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> de la part de Cillian Breathnach <cillian.b...@gmail.com>
Envoyé : 17 mars 2021 13:45
À : cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Objet : Re: [Cider Workshop] Brett in cider

 

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[Brian Drake]

My 2 cents: cider flavors and profiles are relatively delicate, comparatively speaking.  Perhaps that’s why it’s been so easy (and fashionable) to use cider as a ‘blank palette’ to paint on with adjuncts, as it provides a base for other flavors.  But the apples, specifically the traditional Eng/French BSW/BSH apples have a lot to say, or they can, if allowed to.  Bourbon barrel, brett, adjuncts and all are fine, but they completely obscure the cider character itself, or at least often seem to, as it doesn’t take much.  

I haven’t made or had a brett cider (probably not my bag), so I can’t speak much on that in particular, but in general, I see some opportunity for brett, barrel-flavor, adjuncts to be used with a very light touch to accentuate cider character, or add another dimension, instead of creating a uni-dimensional profile.

Brian

OOLLC

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[Denis Rousseau]

yes I agree, but again, in theory, Brett is a spoilage micro-organism, you need to be very carefull with it as it may "own" the place after a while.  But I get the barrels, and other aromatics.  I personnally have used maple syrup as source of sugar for in-bottle second fermentation (prise de mousse).  It does bring a different character to the cider, but you can still find the characteristic of the apples.

At the end of the day, the industry will follow what the consumer wants.  It is true that in Quebec, the cider industry tends to follow the microbrewery market.  Then again, the same question can be asked, if there is pineapple in the beer, is it still a beer 🙂

When are we going to see a wine tasting like a cucumber??  🙂

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Envoyé : 17 mars 2021 15:25

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[Brian Drake]

Wine for some reason seems to be relatively immune to use of adjuncts - I would laugh at a cucumber-infused Chardonnay, but a cucumber-infused cider?  I’d be surprised if there aren’t a number of cucurbit-based ciders, perhaps enough to make a sub-category.  :P

Brian

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[Martin Thoburn]

I guess the real question is Brett a flaw or not.  

Brett in Beer is also a flaw unless you are making a Belgian, lambic, sour, etc.

Funky and phenolic favor in modern cider would also be a flaw but not in traditional cider.  While I agree 100% Brett maybe way overboard and I’ll learn soon.  We don’t really know how it will bring out the apple flavor or not.  It is still an experimental practice.

It is not the same to me as a bad fruit cider or cucumber cider as it were.  It product is still 100% apple.  We still don’t really know if it is good or bad as almost no one here has done it.  

Claude you said you have noticed it as a trend and I gather you tasted some cider with it.  What did you think it did to the final product?  You mentioned the Funk but also noticed it was not the same as English cider.  

Anyway, I agree with you all that all things in moderation and good cider brings out the fruit character, but I don’t think we can say definitively that it should not be done and if it is always considered a flaw as new styles and categories can be created.  

I wonder how many ciders makes are involuntary using Brett in cider without realizing it if they have a natural contamination of their IBC tanks and plastic tubings.  I suspect if they are making traditional cider with LAB and MLF the affect of Brett would go unnoticed and maybe even compliment the mix.

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[Martin Thoburn]

The wine world does have "natural wine" where no sulfites are used, and the winemaker just lets the juice go wild and natural.  Natural wine makers will tolerate all kinds of "flaws" that the traditionalist abhorred.

[Patrick McCauley]

Thanks for the great topic and discussion. One wrinkle that I was curious about is how tannins affect the natural(or cultured) barnyard and funk? I have only been able to get that authentic French or English style barnyard when I am using high tannin crabapples in my blends. I've made a few batches over the past couple years that tasted very much like a dry, English farm cider. These were wild fermented, with minimal sulfites. They definitely underwent MLF as the cellar temps warmed up. With my lower tannin apple blends, I was never able to get that same type of funk, and if they did go funky, it was more of an unpleasant solvent-like flavor. Just curious if anyone had knowledge of why the brett or LAB react so differently in high tannin vs. low tannin ciders. While I have only had cultured brett in Martin's ciders(which were very good), I have noticed in sour beer, that the breweries that are doing open vat ferments vs. those that are adding cultured brett have very different results. You can very much taste the mono-culture of the cultured brett, which really hits you over the head and says "sour beer!!!", against the more subtle sour flavors of the natural, wild ferments.

Pat McCauley

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[Andrew Lea]

Quite simply the origin of the ethyl phenols is from the non volatile phenolic acids in the apples or grapes.  (In beers the phenolic acids are found in the barley).  There is a multi step breakdown process involving several microbial enzymes acting in sequence to get there. 

Although as Dick already said, the conversion efficiency of these reactions is very low (much less than 1%), the fact is that the more precursor you have then the more of the ethyl phenols you are likely to get. High tannin apples contain more of the phenolic acids than regular dessert apples, so you will get higher potential levels of ethyl phenols from them. 

Andrew 

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On 17 Mar 2021, at 21:24, Patrick McCauley <patrickmc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 17 mars 2021 à 15:51:46 UTC-4, gra...@gmail.com a écrit :

I guess the real question is Brett a flaw or not. 

Funky and phenolic favor in modern cider would also be a flaw but not in traditional cider. 

Claude you said you have noticed it as a trend and I gather you tasted some cider with it.  What did you think it did to the final product?  You mentioned the Funk but also noticed it was not the same as English cider.  

I guess for me there are 2 different things...

One is when you visit a farm cidery in Europe, look at the old wood barrels, discuss with the cider maker, and you expect the cider to be funky. It is sort of natural that such cider will be funky, and it is part of the experience! My wife doesn't really like it, but I can appreciate.

This is however in my opinion very different from a modern cider inoculated with brett - this one will also become funky, but I think this is much less complex, as the funkiness of the farm cider is generally caused by a great number of different organisms, including brett, lactic acid bacteria, and other wild microorganisms.

[Miguel Pereda]

If the intention of a home cider maker is to prevent the presence of Brett aromas and flavours in his cider, he should follow some basic rules:

Extreme cleanliness.

Use apples that do not produce musts with a lot of hydroxycinnamic acids. Other types of poliphenols are preferable.

Bottling without residual nutrients of any kind that can be used mainly by Brett yeasts.

And it is also worth knowing that aged ciders can evolve towards these aromas and flavours because Brett yeasts are always there and are very resistant and long-lived.

Miguel A. Pereda

[Eric Tyira]

“Use apples that do not produce musts with a lot of hydroxycinnamic acids.“

Is there a list of apples that do or do not produce these acids or contains high/low levels?

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[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

That's an intersting point you bring Pat, I've olso observed that tannic apples bring you a real barnyard aroma that somehow taste european and that you can't find in others ciders.

And thanks to Andrew for the chemistry behind it.

Louis

[Martin Thoburn]

Claude, I totally get the traditional European method and I make many of my ciders that way.  Ground harvested bittersweet fruit Wild Ferment with minimal sulfites sometimes aged in barrels other just in carboys and bottle conditions.  However using a cultured Brett would not necessary preclude LAB or other wild microorganisms to also have an effect on the fermenation or would they?  I wonder if a wild yeast would ever get started if one pitches 100% brett culture at the start of fermentation.  LAB could also still be present assuming one didn't use only little sulfites or perhaps none at all.  

And I'm not sure you could call a cider "modern" if it has Brett character and the apples used have tannin or maybe even are true bittersweet European fruits.  The example I gave in my post above with the funky cider yeast was using kingston black apples and passed as a traditional cider in competition with high regards.  I've also used that same yeast with Gold Rush both taste nothing like a modern cider.

The GLINTCAP style guide on traditional cider focuses only the type of fruit and flavor and aroma and not the process of how one gets there.   Interesting though it does call out Brett.

A strong farmyard character without spicy/smoky or phenolic suggests a Brettanomyces contamination, which is a fault. 

I guess farmyard character is acceptable as long as it is combined with Spicy/Smoky phenolics.  I don't really know what causes spicy/smoky or where theline between Brett Character and Brett Contamination.  It sounds like low levels are good and high levels are considered offensive.

There are compounds and flavors and flavors associate with Brett:

• 4-ethylphenol: Band-aids, barnyard, horse stable, antiseptic
• 4-ethylguaiacol: Bacon, spice, cloves, smoky
• isovaleric acid: Sweaty saddle, cheese, rancidity

There are also many different strains of Brett:

Brettanomyces bruxellensis
Brettanomyces lambicus

Brettanomyces claussenii

I have no idea what the typical "wild brett" strain is found in the barrels of English ciders makers, but it is very possible that some of these cultures Bretts produce more of the positive flavor profiles (Spcy/Smoky) than the negative and therefore are not perceived as a flaw or as a contamination.

-Martin

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

From my understanding, beyond the type of brett, the amount must also play a big role. In a the traditionnal european cider, in wild fermentation, you have a plethora of different yeast (both in term of strain and specie). Depending on the amount of each, and the characteristics of the fruit used, fermentation temperature, etc., you will get something that is more likely to be multidimensional, where everyone give a little something. In this scheme, the natural contribution of brett in unlikely to be too bretty.

Also, as you said Martin, the result is what can be judge, and a cider fermented with brett that dosn't have a bretty character is certainly not faulty. I think that a cider that is considered bretty means it's too much (weather you have used brett for your fermentation or not). If you can manage to use brett with a mild old horse/farmyard aroma, in my opinion, everything is ok. 

Back to the original post, by selling a cider fermented with brett, you are selling a product as faulty (because brett character is considered inherently faulty...) which is a bit strange although the product itself might be not so faulty. 

Maybe in some years, BJCP will include a new category of cider, something like brett fermented cider that is not bretty enough to be faulty....

Louis

[Eric Tyira]

I don’t want to hijack this thread, and perhaps it’s a topic all on its own, but since we’re talking about yeasts on a particular farm, has anyone given thought to spraying the lees back onto the trees in hopes of building up a yeast colony on said farm?

I liken this to Michael Phillips’ practice of using beneficial microbes to crowd out the bad guys (talking diseases here).  Could the same concept be used to *change* or improve ones farm yeast?  Could we “crowd out” Brett if we don’t want it in great numbers?

Just thinking out loud here. 

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[Les Price]

Sounds interesting Eric, sort of a compost tea. The only thing i would be concerned with is the extreme environmental difference between the carboy and orchard. Mostly i guess the sunlight factor. It would probably just take a lot of dedicated trial and error to get it right.

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[moo...@gmail.com]

Eric—check out the second page of the below community orchardist newsletter:

http://groworganicapples.com/community-orchardist-newsletter/Community-Orchardist-2020-S1.pdf

I've got a batch of lees I've been saving to try the method in the newsletter this spring, but it's more for culturing LAB than Sacchromyces so maybe not quite for the same reasons you're discussing—

[Eric Tyira]

That's very interesting - thank you!  Perhaps the idea isn't to "eliminate" or even "crowd out" Brett more than it is to boost the yeasts and bacteria that give more favorable results.  Much like pitching a commercial yeast to "outnumber" the natural yeasts and thus get mostly the result (and consistency) one desires from a fermenting batch that was never sterilized to begin with.

In team sports, specifically talking American football, they say the game is won during the week of preparation and the actual game played is simply solidifying the results.  Perhaps if we change our focus from the tank and consider the game being won in the orchard.  Healthy soils = healthy trees = high(er) quality fruit.  But it sounds like it's much more than that.  We know how different yeast strains can make a major impact on the resulting cider in terms of aroma, flavor, mouthfeel, etc.

One cidermaker I know says he's a "yeast farmer."  Maybe he's onto something.  Should we populate, feed and keep happy the microorganisms in the orchard so they take care of us in the tanks?  The only question that remains is how to selectively enhance the "good" soldiers while suppressing the "bad" ones?  The easy answer to this is to simply outnumber them like so many wars and battles of the past.  "Safety in numbers" has a new meaning, at least to me.

Eric

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[Martin Thoburn]

Just to circle back on my experimentation with 100% brett fermentation.  I had a 60/40 blend of Dabinett and Ashmead's Kernal that turned out exceptional.  It started with nothing being done and was barely fermenting when I pitched WLP 650 Brettanomyces bruxellensis by white labs about 20+ days after pressing.  The noise and flavor are some of the most complex and unique I've ever tasted in a cider.  Had lots of phenolics as one would expect but no strange or bad tasting off-flavors.  I submitted to this year's GLINTCAP and won a gold in the non-commercial traditional dry category. one of two golds in the entire category.  

I think it is fair to say that Brett contamination is really just what happens when the nasty flavors of Brett take hold and ruin a cider.  You can roll the dice with the native/wild brett in your barn/cidery/press or experiment with unique cultures Brett and get good results either way.  While it may not be "traditional" in the sense of process, it does produce a cider that tastes similar to the old world even if made by those banished to the new world. 

I named it Huguenots Trap.  ;-)

-Martin

[Martin Thoburn]

derp, sorry about the "nose" "noise" typo.  Also just to be clear when nothing was done, I neglected to mention that I did add 25ppm of sulfite and wild fermentation was not very active when I pitched.