Wood storage Barrels V stainless steel cider kegs

[T HASKINS]

Help Please:

I'm a 59 year old Gold star cider drinker but a novice cider maker, i have planted a 48 tree orchard in the heart of Somerset,30 of which are Apples which includes a great number of Somerset vintage varieties plus selected balancing varieties. My orchard obviously will take some time to provide sufficient apples to be self sufficient. However i am keen this Autumn to start the craft of Cider Making and am engaged at present in acquiring Tools and Tackle to achieve this. I have been lucky enough to acquire a Virgo Cheese press in excellent condition and have my Shark Mill organised. Being in the heart of Cider country i can acquire Barrels both Wood and Stainless Steel Brewery Kegs

 

As a novice i would be grateful for advice on which way to go Barrel wise for both fermenting and storage of Cider?.

 

As i will be begging cider apples from farming friends is there a rule of thumb for a Basic blend ie 1x sharp 2x bitter sweet Etc ?      

 

I joined this forum a have access to my Cider piers and i have to say after just a few weeks of scanning the emails there has been a number of really helpful hints and advice !

 

Trevor

 

 

[Andrew Lea]

T HASKINS wrote:

>
> As a novice i would be grateful for advice on which way to go Barrel
> wise for both fermenting and storage of Cider?.

Welcome Trevor! I would say that in the 21st century S/S wins out all
round, so long as it can be maintained airtight during both fermenting
and storing. If you have a yen to use wood I would do that just for
maturation but not for fermentation. And be sure it is clean and sweet.
I posted a barrel cleaning link the other day see below.

And always always remember that air is the mortal enemy of cider.

>
> As i will be begging cider apples from farming friends is there a rule
> of thumb for a Basic blend ie 1x sharp 2x bitter sweet Etc ?

That's good, or you could even go 1:1. The sharper your juice the less
likely it will get nasty spoilage bacteria and develop off flavours.
Pure bittersweet ciders are dangerous territory. Whatever blend you use,
I would also advise using pH papers and adjusting the SO2 to suit. It
isn't tricky to do but makes a world of difference in keeping out the
nasties. See my website for details.

Good luck!

Andrew

-------------------------------------
"I cannot advise specifically on how to use your barrel for maturation
but as with any cider storage system it is important to keep it topped
up and air rigorously excluded. Incidentally it is now known that old
oak barrels used for cider maturation contain a local population of
malo-lactic bacteria living in the pores of the wood which are active
players in the maturation process. It is not passive flavour transfer
from the wood as is often supposed (certainly not in old barrels where
all trace of wood solubles or previous beverages has gone).

The following link to notes on barrel care are from Pollard and Beech
'Cider Making' which is over 50 years old but may be helpful

http://www.cider.org.uk/barrel_care.pdf "

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[suzy's clevedon cider]

hi trevor

how is your cidermaking going. how is your orchard? did you source any decent stainless steel tanks

cheers

rich

[flyingcowman]

I wouldn't agree about keeping it airtight throughout fermentation. I ferment around 200 litres at a time in a 220 litre oak barrel. At the start of fermentation I cover the bung hole with cloth to stop any flies entering but dont'd fit an airlock until the initail vigourous fermentation has died down. The yeast needs some air to begin with to get really strong and at the initial stage the risks are small. I fit an airlock after about a week of fermentation after the initial "fizz" has died down. Up untill now I have racked off once fermentation has stopped and stored in glass

On Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:11:19 AM UTC+1, T HASKINS wrote:

On Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:11:19 AM UTC+1, T HASKINS wrote:

[greg l.]

I don't understand this. After fermentation has started the yeast don't need any more air, indeed most would say there is enough oxygen in the juice for the yeast. It is so easy to fit an airlock, even if the risks of spoilage are small which I doubt, you risk losing 220L of cider. Even a small amount of air can start an infection of acetobacter, it has happened to me, once you can smell the vinegar you may as well tip it out. You may think that because the headspace is full of co2, oxygen can't get in but dalton's law says otherwise. I think you should fit the airlock and reduce a small risk to zero.

Greg

[flyingcowman]

I have done it the same way (apart from the quantity) for three years and at least two if not three batches each year. I have had no problems and the cider is superb.

I'm only talking about the initial vigorous fermentation ... Having a good headspace gets the fermentation off to a good and very vigorous start and within a couple of days there is so much CO2 being given off any air is driven out. No normal sized airlock could cope with the gas given off from 200L during the first week anyway. The old way I remember the scrumpy boys in the SW did it was by packing the barrel hole with straw. I use a decent piece of fine muslin. After about a week I fit a bung and airlock and after the fermentation has stopped I bung down securely and quickly to allow no air back in. I rack off quite quickly (around a week after fermentation has stopped). I aim to start at 1060 .. ish and it usually drops to 1000 or even less so very dry, very quickly.

No problems so far, so I'm sticking to my known formula ... I guess it might not work for everyone, but I don't see why?

 

Cheers, Ivan

On Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:11:19 AM UTC+1, T HASKINS wrote:

[Cheshire Matt]

Same here - don't clamp down the barrels until got a good, confirmed fermentation going on.  I think Andrew usually pops up at this stage and points us in the direction of successive fermentations due to different aerobic and anaerobic strains of yeasts.  I've certainly had better natural ferments when I've not airlocked them immediately.

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[Andrew Lea]

On 26/08/2013 10:25, Cheshire Matt wrote:
> Same here - don't clamp down the barrels until got a good, confirmed
> fermentation going on. I think Andrew usually pops up at this stage and
> points us in the direction of successive fermentations due to different
> aerobic and anaerobic strains of yeasts. I've certainly had better
> natural ferments when I've not airlocked them immediately.

[Popping up as requested!]

The wild non-Saccharomyces or apiculate yeasts such as Kloeckera
apiculata are often regarded as 'oxidative' yeasts. In a traditional
successional cider fermentation especially where little or no sulphite
is used, they will dominate the first few days of a cider fermentation
and are very vigorous and foam-foaming. For this reason the barrels are
left unplugged for a while. Once the fermentation has quietened down a
bit, these yeasts are overtaken by wild Saccharomyces which typically
are quieter and steadier and less prone to foam formation. At that point
the foam is wiped away and the airlock fitted. I have seen a fascinating
video of cidermaking at my alma mater Long Ashton Research Station taken
in 1936 which shows just that being done. The Saccharomyces also have
less requirement for oxygen although some is required for the synthesis
of sterols which contribute to healthy cell walls. But as Greg says,
there is usually enough oxygen in an apple juice or grape must to do
this (but not in a brewing wort, where the air has been boiled out) and
in any case good healthy cells from a modern yeast culture have enough
sterols already to carry them through without any added air.

[Is that what you wanted me to say, Matt?!]

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Cheshire Matt]

Pretty much :) It helps explain why it's not a problem, and probably
more a "stop your airlock bunging up" rather than "it needs air to get
to it". Which reminds me: must go and check the first barrel of perry
to see whether that needs clamping down yet...

[greg l.]

It depends a lot what sort of fermentation you are having. If fermentation is slow to take off then it may be ok to leave the bung out for a week. Ivan was implying that he was waiting for the fermentation to nearly finish before fitting a bung and airlock. For me this is too late and very risky. Just because it works a few times doesn't make it ok, the first time it doesn't work you lose a whole barrell. Most spoilage yeasts and bacteria need oxygen, so if you keep air out the process is inherently safer.

Greg

[flyingcowman]

I don't think I implied I wait until fermentation is nearly finished? I said I fit an airlock when the initial vigorous fizzing has stopped! It works for me and has done enough times for me to be confident in my method. Nothing is ever certain and there's always a chance of spoilage. I think the risk of the airlock being overwhelmed at the early stage is greater and I've had wine spoil when froth has come through the airlock which provides a route for nasties too.

BTW I'm not a purist, I prefer to kill the natural yeast first with campden powder and use a good quality cider yeast. I think this reduces the risks of the "wrong" yeasts getting started a bit too ... Anyway, each to his own.

 

Ivan

On Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:11:19 AM UTC+1, T HASKINS wrote:

[greg l.]

Apologies Ivan, I misunderstood your position.

Greg

[Richard Davis]

Hello all, I am a bit of a noob when it comes to cider making, me and some friends have recently made around 120 litres of cider and have recently purchased a 40 gallons oak barrel, we are fermenting the cider aerobically and anaerobically in plastic buckets, once fermentation is complete we may age the cider after racking in the oak barrel, however I am a bit worried about the amount of headspace in the barrel approximately 60 litres, will this spoil the cider if not will I need an airlock on the barrel for the aging process, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Ray Blockley]

You do need to keep headspace to a minimum. Is the barrel clean and sterile? What did it have in it before...? 

OK - with the caveat that I am no expert and haven't fermented in wooden barrels:

If clean and sterile, why not get the cider into the barrel ASAP and then keep topping it up as the ferment progresses? If the cider is fermenting steadily, it should be OK with an initial headspace providing you can reduce it ASAP and fill to brimming. 

If you can't reduce the (60 litre?) headspace it may be worthwhile looking at other options for this year...?

I'm sure those with more experience will add to this / correct me :-)

Ray 

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[Raglan Cider Mill]

If fermentation has pretty much finished when you rack into the barrel then that headspace is too much, the cider will spoil.   Wooden barrels need to be full when they are sealed.

 

In answer to your second question, no you don’t need an airlock unless it is still fermenting, the wood allows for a small amount of gas to escape.  But you should have a tightly sealed bung.

Sally

[Richard Davis]

Thank you very much Ray and Sally, excellent advice. I think i will try the barrel when we have more cider. Add stick to our smaller barrels for now, thanks for all the info.