optium drinking temperature
Barry Eastwood
Michael Cobb
I think it takes all sorts. Personally if it is too fizzy or too cold I
cannot taste anything but there are plenty of others who like both of
these characteristics - indeed advertisers make a virtue of it so some
people must like it. For me, however, a good cider is room temperature
and still then my personal taste buds give me the best result - lots of
flavour. I sometimes wonder how many of those addressed by the
advertisers have tried it like I drink it - they might be pleasantly
surprised in some instances (with the right cider!).
Michael Cobb
Roy Bailey
their beer warm - apart from those eccentrics who drink ice-cold
Guinness. The late beer writer Michael Jackson proposed a five-level
scale for serving temperatures: well chilled (7 °C/45 °F) for "light"
beers (pale lagers); chilled (8 °C/46 °F) for Berliner Weisse and
other wheat beers; lightly chilled (9 °C/48 °F) for all dark lagers,
altbier and German wheat beers; cellar temperature (13 °C/55 °F) for
regular British ale, stout and most Belgian specialities; and room
temperature (15.5 °C/59.9 °F) for strong dark ales (especially
trappist beer) and barley wine. Anyone who enjoys good ale prefers it
to be served at around the 13 °C/55 °F mark.
However, I find that cider and perry benefit from being served at
around 8 °C/46 °F.
Roy.
Dries Muylaert
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JezH
of cider depends on the level of sweetness.
So, a dry cider is best at room temperature, while a medium is best
chilled (and I guess a sweet is best frozen!!:-)
As with all things though, its down to personal taste. I tried a
Mulled Cider recently that suggested serving 'over ice'.
All the best
Jez
Cheshire Matt
hope? "To mull: to heat, sweeten and enrich with spices". FFS.
"Room Temp", as Roy points out, is around 15deg C. If anything, cooling
whatever you have down seems to generally improve it, but over chilling
seems to kill subtle aromas (no scientific reference/evidence for those
that like to see that, but from personal experience and years of
drinking).
Poor white wines can be made better through chilling - perhaps that's
where Magners are coming from. If anyone on here is trying to preserve
"traditional" ways, remember that fridges weren't around (OK, Ice Houses
were - but that was for perishables, not something designed to keep,
like cider). If cider's been good enough to make it through a few
hundred years, then it's survived without needing to be served "over ice".
So mulled cider: warm and sweet. Sauvingnon Blanc: chilled and dry.
Hmm - opposite view there.
Matt - who's currently in the middle of a bottle of "20th Century Room
Temperature" St Emillion and considering putting it in the fridge for
20mins :)
Dick Dunn
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 09:14:02AM -0800, Roy Bailey wrote:
...[much snip]...
> ... room temperature (15.5 �C/59.9 �F) ...
surely not?
Over here (where we have central heating) room temperature is 68 �F
at a minimum, and I'd come to think that the corresponding Celsius "round
number" of 20 �C was conventional in Europe. 5�C is quite a discrepancy.
I know we in the US keep our houses warmer than over there...but as I say,
68 is perhaps the low end of the comfort range, more like 68-72 depending
on season.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
will rollason
the other day ( twas about -3/4) and i couldn't taste a bloody thing!!
greg l.
It depends on climate as well, you would have a hard time convincing
most Australians to drink cider that isn't chilled and carbonated,
specially in summer (though we haven't had a summer this year). We
drink our beer chilled and fizzy or otherwise it tastes crap.
15.5C as room temp makes me wonder about the british as well, makes me
think of Dickens novels etc.
Greg
Charlotte Traynor
We're just getting ready to plant out our Maiden Whips from their Nursery beds to their final orchard locations. We've got around 500 trees to move and wondered if anyone could recommend any equipment to make the job a bit quicker (and easier on our backs!).
We're planting into reasonably heavy clay soil and found constant digging holes for windbreak trees last year pretty taxing. Are there any decent planting spades for bare rooted trees that anyone would recommend?
Thanks!
Charlotte
Andrew Lea
>
> We're planting into reasonably heavy clay soil and found constant
> digging holes for windbreak trees last year pretty taxing. Are there
> any decent planting spades for bare rooted trees that anyone would
> recommend?
You could try a mechanical (tractor-driven?) auger although in a clay
soil the hole might become glazed and restrict root penetration. You'd
have to try it out. Also beware with an auger not to plant too deep i.e.
don't bury the graft union.
You could also try slit planting like foresters do (dig the spade right
in, move it to one side to open a V, drop the tree in, and close it up
again with your foot). That's much quicker than digging a hole. But
generally people planting fruit trees prefer to take more care of them
than that and give each one a loving home to sit in!
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk
Charlotte Traynor
Unfortunately don'r have access to a tractor, although hopefully we will have had the ground subsoiled (wether permitting...) or at least ploughed before planting so the ground will hopefully be a *bit* easier to open up.
I think after a few hundred I will be sorely tempted to lapse into slit planting...but worry that it won't be too good for the roots to be forced down and close together - think realistically we may compromise a bit if we start to cut it fine in terms of a safe timeframe to transplant the trees.
Charlotte
Andrew Lea
>
> Unfortunately don'r have access to a tractor, although hopefully we
> will have had the ground subsoiled (wether permitting...) or at least
> ploughed before planting so the ground will hopefully be a *bit*
> easier to open up.
Well if someone is ploughing it for you that will loosen it up
considerably. Indeed, maybe even too much! You could perhaps ask them to
leave open furrows so you could trench plant? Depends how 'cloddy' the
ground is and how much of a sward it already has. It needs to be fairly
friable so you can back-fill without creating large air pockets.
>
> I think after a few hundred I will be sorely tempted to lapse into
> slit planting...but worry that it won't be too good for the roots to
> be forced down and close together - think realistically we may
> compromise a bit if we start to cut it fine in terms of a safe
> timeframe to transplant the trees.
I don't think slit planting is ideal for fruit trees. Foresters can
probably accept higher losses and less-than-optimum conditions than
orchardists.
Dick Dunn
> We're just getting ready to plant out our Maiden Whips from their Nursery beds to their final orchard locations. We've got around 500 trees to move and wondered if anyone could recommend any equipment to make the job a bit quicker (and easier on our backs!).
>
Even if you don't have a tractor (per your exchange with Andrew), it is
well worth hiring some sort of mechanical help for that many trees. As
you said in your later note, it will be tempting to cut corners in some
way after you start to tire.
What I've done in the past with a lot of holes to dig was to have someone
with a skid steer and front auger dig them. If you've got your locations
for planting holes all measured out and flagged, it takes less than a
minute per hole! The front auger is faster than a tractor rear auger
because the driver can see the spot directly and a skid steer can wiggle
to get an accurate position.
Andrew's concern about "glazing" the side of the hole with a mechanical
auger is valid, particularly where you have a heavy clay soil. Thoughts
on mitigating that:
Don't try to dig the holes when the soil is very dry.
Talk to the operator; explain the concern. Have him dig the holes as
quickly as possible--that is, push the auger in as fast as possible
without bogging down. That avoids spinning the auger and "polishing"
the sides.
Use a large enough auger, and the edge of the hole will be out far enough
that the tree roots won't reach it for a year or two. IIRC, the holes I
had dug were with a 16" or 18" auger. It did mean extra time backfilling,
but that's easy compared to digging.
Charlotte Traynor
Trenching sounds like a pretty good option, will have a word with our man and see if it's plausible.
Charlotte
Andrew Lea
> Thanks again Andrew,
>
> Trenching sounds like a pretty good option, will have a word with our man and see if it's plausible.
A lot will depend on local conditions and timing. You don't want a
furrow that dries out for a month and becomes unworkable before you use
it (but you might be able to lay polythene sheet on the top of it in
partial mitigation). And it requires more effort to back fill, because
the entire row has to be filled in, not just each hole.
Good luck. Whatever you choose, I agree with Dick that getting the
digging part done by a contractor with a machine is the way to go.
Vigneron Rowland
firstly, buy or bottle some beer/cider/wine, and lots of it. Then get
as many people to help you as you possible can. Throw a planting
party. Just make sure you have lots of extra shovels cause people
will break them. And also remember that if you keep the transplants
well watered then you can transplant them throughout the year, so you
can get as many done as you can before the buds break, then wait till
they are in full leaf and continue transplanting with heavy watering
every few days depending on weather. Do you have an irrigation system
in place? Pond/well, pump, leader pipes, and drip line? summer 2010 I
hand watered over 400 trees with 5 gallon buckets out of several 30
gallon bins in the back of my pickup truck that I had filled from a
stream across the property with the 5 gallon buckets. Of course they
were all in a tight nursery bed. Or you could do half now and half in
the autumn.
Charlotte Traynor
Don't try to dig the holes when the soil is very dry.
I think your best option is to do it the old fashion way. That is,
firstly, buy or bottle some beer/cider/wine, and lots of it. Then get
as many people to help you as you possible can. Throw a planting
party.
And also remember that if you keep the transplants
well watered then you can transplant them throughout the year, so you
can get as many done as you can before the buds break, then wait till
they are in full leaf and continue transplanting with heavy watering
every few days depending on weather.
Do you have an irrigation system
in place?
Dick Dunn
> Thanks for the info Dick,
>
> I've not seen or heard of a skid steer before, but having a quick google of it has told me all; looks like a godsend.
>
> A bit worried about the price tag that comes with it...we're on a budget and are paying to progress to the next stage of the project as we earn the money for it....nevertheless it's something I will look into as there is a definite balance to be struck between saving money and using up all of your available time.
You need to hire about one long day of work on the skid steer for your 500
holes. Ask around! You might be surprised. Tho I can see, being on the
Isle of Man restricts the possibilities to what's there--couldn't afford
to bring one in from outside.
Steve Bonney
> I think your best option is to do it the old fashion way. That is,
> firstly, buy or bottle some beer/cider/wine, and lots of it. Then get
> as many people to help you as you possible can. Throw a planting
> party. Just make sure you have lots of extra shovels cause people
> will break them.
attended a few field days at organic apple farms in the Great Lakes area
of the U.S. The orchards that plant several hundred trees do so at high
density rates using a deep ripper shank to open the soil and planting
dwarf trees on 2 foot centers. The organic guys usually put a little
compost in the slit at the planting sites. In my orchard, I dig holes
with a backhoe or an auger and plant trees on G11 rootstocks at 7'
centers on berms because my drainage is seasonally very poor.
> summer 2010 I
> hand watered over 400 trees with 5 gallon buckets out of several 30
> gallon bins in the back of my pickup truck that I had filled from a
> stream across the property with the 5 gallon buckets. Of course they
> were all in a tight nursery bed. Or you could do half now and half in
> the autumn.
That is a quite an effort, and accomplishment if the trees lived. I used
to do things like that, but I don't anymore because I can't keep up with
my former self. I usually plant from the nursery or pots into the
orchard in the fall season, to avoid the initial stress of spring and
summer bareroot planting.
Steve
Indiana USA
--
Steve Bonney
Sustainable Earth
a 501(c)3 not-for-profit membership organization
to promote sustainable farming and food systems
Rich Anderson
auger, however digging in winter clay soil is may leave you with glazed
holes making it difficult for the tree to extend it roots as it grows. An
alternative is to have a custom hire with a deep plow or subsoiler to do
each row. When we planted the rows were laid out and augured then
backfilled in the prior summer when the soils were dryer and worked better.
Planting was relative easy each tree requiring just several shovel scoops in
loose moist winter soils. I think with that many trees you are going to need
a tractor. I tell people that I got in to the cider business because I
wanted the tractor and needed an excuse to buy one.:)
Dave
will rollason
TREES ... optimum temp.... lol....
On Feb 15, 12:16 am, Dave <peasgoodnons...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Room temperature for me.
Tim
--
Dave
;)
Cheshire Matt
DISPENSE TEMPREATURE [sic]
Traditional draught ciders are best served at cellar temperature, 12 deg C / 54 deg F
Barry Eastwood wrote:
Raymond Blockley
Ray B
Andrew Lea
>
> The ciders were about 16C - 18C - going on room temp - and they tasted
> great and no one asked for ice (shudder!) or commented on them not being
> cool / cold enough.
> The cider & perry we'd put on tasted much, much better than they did at
> the 9C that my thermometer recorded during my final ABV calculations and
> blending.
>
I think this is generally true of UK craft ciders (as with beers) but as
you say the higher the temperature then often the more obvious the
faults. But it's worth bearing in mind that many commercial ciders will
be 'designed' to be drunk much cooler because they compete in the
chilled beer 'lager' market, not with ambient drinks. When I say
'designed' what I mean is that the target serving temperature will be
factored in during the 'product development' stage. This will especially
affect the chosen carbonation, sweetness and acid levels, whose
perception is markedly temperature dependent. Remember these types of
drinks are formulated to a consistent recipe just like a soft drink. But
even a craft maker, when blending, maybe needs to have in mind an
'optimum' consumption temperature.
I was recently sent some commercial cider made from dessert fruit by a
new small Australian producer. Because of its origin I assumed it should
be served at fridge temperature which is what I did for the first
bottle. I was hugely disappointed by its lack of flavour so I tried the
next bottle at room temperature. What a revelation - it actually tasted
of something (it was clean, so there were no faults to hide)! When I
discussed this with the producer he agreed but said his biggest problem
was to convince his fellow-countrymen not to drink it straight from the
fridge!
Raymond Blockley
I think this is generally true of UK craft ciders (as with beers) but as you say the higher the temperature then often the more obvious the faults. But it's worth bearing in mind that many commercial ciders will be 'designed' to be drunk much cooler because they compete in the chilled beer 'lager' market, not with ambient drinks. When I say 'designed' what I mean is that the target serving temperature will be factored in during the 'product development' stage. This will especially affect the chosen carbonation, sweetness and acid levels, whose perception is markedly temperature dependent. Remember these types of drinks are formulated to a consistent recipe just like a soft drink. But even a craft maker, when blending, maybe needs to have in mind an 'optimum' consumption temperature.
I was recently sent some commercial cider made from dessert fruit by a new small Australian producer. Because of its origin I assumed it should be served at fridge temperature which is what I did for the first bottle. I was hugely disappointed by its lack of flavour so I tried the next bottle at room temperature. What a revelation - it actually tasted of something (it was clean, so there were no faults to hide)! When I discussed this with the producer he agreed but said his biggest problem was to convince his fellow-countrymen not to drink it straight from the fridge!
Andrew
--
Ray B