cider clarifying as it relates to bottle conditioning

[hammerstone]

Hi All,

I've posted a few times here, and consider myself a simple cider maker.  i try to do it as simply as possible, although in the past have ventured into some more complicated areas. 

Background:  My typical cider year is to press juice one or two weekends in the fall, and fill from 2-7 carboys (5 gal to 7.5 gal) with the juice.  I typically pitch it with yeast fairly quickly after pressing.  My apples are all picked from "donor" orchards or backyard trees, so mostly red and golden delicious with some romes, granny, and a few other varieties.  I mix the apples so the juice is also a mix.  I typically get a starting gravity of 1.06 +/- 0.005.

For the last several years, i've had to clarify the fermented juice using keiselsol and chitosan, which works great.  Why i've had to clarify recently (the past 5 years) is another conversation, but for now my question stems from an inability to bottle condition.  I add sugar during the bottling (3/4 cup per 5 gallons) and have not been successful in getting very much carbonation (sometimes a small bit, sometimes nothing). I typically rack once after a few months, but this year two of my Edinburgh Ale yeasts (White labs liquid) are tasting nice and are at 1.008 SG (starting from 1.055).  I'm tempted to bottle them and just keep them cool after bottling.  That is assuming i'm able to get some bottle conditioning going, leading to the questions below.

So the questions are:

1. could the clarifying agents be completely settling out the yeast, so there is none available for the bottle conditioning?

2.  If that is the case should i add a small amount of dry yeast at bottling?  Nutrient needed too? I assume yeast would need to be added to each individual bottle in order to have a chance to work, or i would need to add it to the carboy after the clarifying had been done, and then wait some time for it to start growing.

3. Assuming there is still yeast in the cider that gets racked off to the bottling bucket, what is the worst case?  Say all of that sugar (from 1.008 down to 1.000) was converted, what would the pressure be in the bottles, and would it be enough to blow them?  I am using the standard 22 oz brown beer bottles, which are not too heavy.

4.  i assume that with 1.008 sugar there is no need to add sugar at the bottling step?

Your thanks in advance.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Vince Wakefield]

Hi,

 

I make bottle conditioned cider and it always has a nice fizz, if I detail my method you might be able to see if any of it would help you.

 

Press apples, ( sulphite at 50% with ref to ph)

 

Come back between 6 to 9 months later, test for sg, if above 0.998 come back in another couple of months.

 

When it is finished fermenting (sg 0.998 or not dropping over a couple of months of warm weather) Rack into a clean container. It is always clear at this point no filtering or agents are needed.

 

Add 8g/L of sugar (making sure it is dissolved) I then add some re-hydrated EC1118 yeast, mix well and bottle.

 

This is normally in the summer and after 3 to 4 weeks it has a nice fizz. If done in cold weather it will take a lot longer to get a fizz if at all.

 

Others will have different methods and their own reasons for doing it that way, this works for me, I also use apples from peoples gardens so the juice should be very similar.

 

Just for reference I press around 7,000L a year, around 500 to 1000L I make fizzy.

 

Hope this helps

Vince

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/9f51aa30-fd6a-4e91-a871-56408ad143ecn%40googlegroups.com.

[hammerstone]

Hi Vince, thank you for your input.  7000L a year is a lot?  i do about 250 gallons (1000L) per year, but that is with a group of other people, and for myself i freeze about 15 gallons (~50l)

My process is similar, but some major differences are:

i typically only ferment for 2-5 months.  I am bottling early this year, because I have had some trouble with the cider going to vinegar, and attribute that to the racking process introducing too much oxygen (i try to top up the carboys after racking, but sometimes still have the problem).  So to avoid that i'm going to bottle without a racking, just waited until the fermentation slowed way down.  I am at 1.008 SG now.

I typically don't re-yeast, but rely on the yeast in the cider.  Perhaps i should take your advice and add yeast.  that was the basis of my question regarding the yeast being pulled to the bottom by the clarifying agent.  do you add any nutrient when bottling?

8 g/L is (if my conversion is correct) about 1 ounce/gallon, which is what i typically use.  Since this cider is only down to 1.008, i was considering not using any sugar. 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 20 novembre 2022 à 12:51:44 UTC-5, hammerstone a écrit :

So the questions are:

1. could the clarifying agents be completely settling out the yeast, so there is none available for the bottle conditioning?

This is not liklely, but you can add a tiny bit of yeast just to make sure - I may add 5 to 10 ppm of dry yeast, which makes a very small amount.

2.  If that is the case should i add a small amount of dry yeast at bottling?  Nutrient needed too? I assume yeast would need to be added to each individual bottle in order to have a chance to work, or i would need to add it to the carboy after the clarifying had been done, and then wait some time for it to start growing.

Yes, adding to a transfer tank where you rack the clear cider is the best way to go in my opinion - and after a little while (a few hours to maybe next day), stir this tank and bottle from it. Adding a tiny bit of DAP doesn't hurt.

 

3. Assuming there is still yeast in the cider that gets racked off to the bottling bucket, what is the worst case?  Say all of that sugar (from 1.008 down to 1.000) was converted, what would the pressure be in the bottles, and would it be enough to blow them?  I am using the standard 22 oz brown beer bottles, which are not too heavy.

4.  i assume that with 1.008 sugar there is no need to add sugar at the bottling step?

I aim for a drop of 4 to 5 SG points in bottle to obtain a nice fizz. It can be a bit more - 6 points gives more sparkle, but is getting close to the limit where you start to have some gushing at opening.

As of the ideal SG at bottling, it depends on if you want a bone dry cider or one that retains some residual sugar. For my part, I like my ciders to finish at around SG 1.006 to 1.008. Hence I'll bottle at around 1.010 to 1.012. For this I'll make sure the cider is well stabilized at that SG by doing rackings until the nutrients are exhausted. I also want the cider to be well clarified as to minimize the amount of deposits in the bottle, and I may do a fining (same Chitosan and Kieselsol) if necessary. I don't add sugar, but I do add a micro-dosage of DAP and/or dry yeast. For example, 10 ppm DAP plus 5 ppm dry yeast usually works fine to provide just the right fizz and not too much.

[Vince Wakefield]

I don’t add nutrient, I don’t do anything other than what I put in my post, I don’t add yeast at pressing either.  if you want it clear give it time.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/9b2f7285-c710-47b6-bc99-65fabcfad9f6n%40googlegroups.com.

[hammerstone]

Hi Claud, thank you for the reply.  I am very interested in your last comment, but need some more explanation if possible.

I'm quite confused on the whole issue of nutrients.  I have some comments below, but first:

In addition to understanding more about yeast and nutrients, i have a 6 and 7.5 gallon carboys of cider that are clear (keiselsol and chitosan), at 1.008, and would like to get them bottled.  I have an 11 g packet of dry Lallemand "Yeast for cask and bottle conditioning", 1/3 teaspoon of yeast energizer (DAP, yeast hulls, magnesium sulphate, Vit B), and a vial (~40 g) of "Wyeast Beer Nutrient Blend".  I have about 8 hours of time remaining to get these two bottled before bedtime and work tomorrow.  Can you comment on my plan below?

6 gallon carboy:

Siphon cider from carboy to bottling bucket

Add the whole packet of Lallemand yeast to the bucket (after preparing in a sugar solution at 35C as recommended by Lallemand)

add the 1/4 teaspoon of yeast energizer and mix (or use some of the Wyeast Nutrient  instead.  how much?)

cover and wait 2 hours

stir and bottle

7.5 gallon carboy - same as above but split the yeast energizer and priming yeast between the two batches or:

extract a few millilters of "sludge" from the bottom of the carboy in a syringe (assuming this will contain enough yeast to inoculate the cider in the bottle), and mix this in the bottling bucket. 

If you have additional time, perhaps  you could help educate me on yeast and yeast nutrients.  see below, and please correct me/interject below where appropriate.

What are nutrients?  I've read that a major one is nitrogen, what else?

It seems most people say there is no way for the average homemaker to measure nutrients; is that true?

when nutrient levels become too low, the yeast will die.

Nutrients come from the apples themselves.  Apples from an orchard that is not fertilized, or where the trees are old, have low levels of nutrients.

Your last comment below that starts with "I aim for a drop..." says you do rackings until the nutrients are exhausted; this implies that ALL THE NUTRIENTS are located on the bottom.  Is this true only for a cider that has clarified in the carboy?  If the cider is still cloudy, then the nutrients are still "floating", and in this case racking would NOT remove the nutrients?  Also, if the first is true and all the nutrients are on the bottom, does that mean all the yeast are on the bottom too, and there is some kind of buoyancy driven convection current that keeps the cider mixed so you don't end up with low SG on the bottom near the yeast and high SG at the top where there is no yeast? 

Your last comment has this statement " I also want the cider to be well clarified as to minimize the amount of deposits in the bottle, and I may do a fining (same Chitosan and Kieselsol) if necessary."  That implies that my assumption above is incorrect, and the racking of a cloudy cider does somehow reduce the overall amount of nutrients (i'm not clear on how that could work, unless it is just that MANY of the nutrients have settled to the bottom, and those are being eliminated from the pool available to the yeast), and you would do the clarification later but only for the benefit of clarifying, not to "settle" the nutrients to the bottom so they can be collected/removed by racking.

I appreciate yours (and others) comments.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 20 novembre 2022 à 15:10:29 UTC-5, hammerstone a écrit :

6 gallon carboy:

Siphon cider from carboy to bottling bucket

Add the whole packet of Lallemand yeast to the bucket (after preparing in a sugar solution at 35C as recommended by Lallemand)

add the 1/4 teaspoon of yeast energizer and mix (or use some of the Wyeast Nutrient  instead.  how much?)

cover and wait 2 hours

stir and bottle

In my opinion, this will make your cider drop to bone dry quite rapidly. You might end-up with a 8 to 10 points drop of SG (depending on if your dry cider goes to 1.000 or to 0.998) which I think is risky for gushing.

If it was me, I would only add (as mentioned in my previous post) 10 ppm DAP plus 5 ppm dry yeast, which for 6 US gallon (23 liters) amounts to 0.23 gram of DAP and 0.115 gram of dry yeast. This would most probably leave you with an off-dry cider at a SG of 1.003 when finished. As you can see this is way less than what you intend to use, and requires a precision scale...

7.5 gallon carboy - same as above but split the yeast energizer and priming yeast between the two batches or:

extract a few millilters of "sludge" from the bottom of the carboy in a syringe (assuming this will contain enough yeast to inoculate the cider in the bottle), and mix this in the bottling bucket. 

I would do the same as above.

If you have additional time, perhaps  you could help educate me on yeast and yeast nutrients.  see below, and please correct me/interject below where appropriate.

What are nutrients?  I've read that a major one is nitrogen, what else?

It seems most people say there is no way for the average homemaker to measure nutrients; is that true?

when nutrient levels become too low, the yeast will die.

Nutrients come from the apples themselves.  Apples from an orchard that is not fertilized, or where the trees are old, have low levels of nutrients.

All above I mostly agree...

Nitrogen is the main element here. When yeast population grows, available nitrogen is used by the yeast. N is roughly 20% of DAP and 10% of dry yeast in weight. For example, if you have 100 grams of dry yeast biomass, 10 of these grams are N and have been taken from the available nutrients. Similarly, adding 50 grams of DAP can provide an increase of yeast biomass of 100 grams. So when the yeast population is established, there is no more available nutrients left - all has been used to grow the population.

When yeast cells die, there is an autolysis and the N is gradually released back to the cider, it will be reused for feeding the yeast population.

Your last comment below that starts with "I aim for a drop..." says you do rackings until the nutrients are exhausted; this implies that ALL THE NUTRIENTS are located on the bottom. 

Actually, most of the nutrients (and N) are located in the yeast cells whether these are alive or dead. So when you do a racking, you eliminate nutrients by eliminating yeast cells in fact.

 

Is this true only for a cider that has clarified in the carboy?  If the cider is still cloudy, then the nutrients are still "floating", and in this case racking would NOT remove the nutrients?  Also, if the first is true and all the nutrients are on the bottom, does that mean all the yeast are on the bottom too, and there is some kind of buoyancy driven convection current that keeps the cider mixed so you don't end up with low SG on the bottom near the yeast and high SG at the top where there is no yeast? 

When you do a racking you eliminate yeast cells (and the N they contain) that are on the bottom, while keeping those that are in suspension in the cider. The clearer the cider, the greater the fraction that will be on the bottom, and less in suspension, hence a more efficient racking.

And when you do the final racking on a perfectly clarified cider, you can be pretty sure you are taking very little yeast cells and nutrients.

This is a reason keeved ciders are so easy to stabilize at high SG - as they are nicely clarified from the beginning, there are very few yeast cells in suspension in the cider, and rackings are then extremely efficient in eliminating the nutrients.

Hope this helps...

[Tomas]

Hammer,

Graft your own trees.  I am in NM and can show you how, plus I can supply scionwood from many cider, dessert, culinary, and multi-purpose varieties.  You would have to order a few rootstocks, but that is no problem.  Contact me offline if you are interested.

Tom

[Tomas]

Sorry, wrong thread.

[hammerstone]

Claud, thanks again for the explanation on nutrients, that helps.  you are right, my scale does only 1 gram increments.  I estimated the amounts to try to get the 10 ppm and 5 ppm you suggested.  I have 3 more carboys that are a month behind these, so i will probably order a higher resolution scale. 

I'll try to organize my thoughts and might post a few more questions on this topic, but i'm moving ahead with the bottling now.  it's been 2 hours for the first one so hope that is enough to distribute the yeast/DAP somewhat evenly.  I'll give it a stir and get going.  Thanks again to you and Vince for the responses.

[Miguel A. Pereda]

From my point of view things in sparkling cider production are not that simple and the process is quite complex.
There are several factors to consider:
1/ The type of apples you use.
2/ Whether or not MLF is carried out.
3/ The increase in VA caused by the racking you do to pre-clarify your cider.
4/ I am not sure whether an addition of DAP causes new cell growth or just a reactivation of existing yeasts.
5/ The type of residual yeasts you have in your bottle. If you have Brett yeasts in a certain proportion, you run the risk of reactivating them by adding DAP and they will spoil your cider.
6/ On occasion I have added DAP to my cider and my yeasts were not reactivated because they probably lacked other nutrients as well as N and were exhausted.
7/ From all this I deduce that in the champegnois method you have to add to a dry cider: new sugar, new yeasts, new nutrients and bentonite. Then the corresponding disgorging is carried out so that the cider is finally crystal .

Miguel A. Pereda

[mannp...@gmail.com]

On a side note:
1.008 equates to 20g/L of sugar, which fully fermented yields 5 bar pressure. That's champagne territory. Beer bottle will likely not hold up.

[gareth chapman]

Actually more if already fermented to that point, as  the alcohol produced reduces the density. 

Depending on where you started and thus the amount of alcohol produced, 0g/l sugar could be below an sg of 1.000