Fruit from an ungrafted MM106 rootstock for cider

[Michael Davidson]

Has anyone on here harvested fruit from an ungrafted MM106 rootstock and evaluated it for use in cider? The question came up on the North American Fruit Explorers forum and no one seems to have an answer. There is apparently an obscure article existing making the claim, but we're seeking independent verification.

[Mark Shipperlee]

That would be very interesting - as it would suggest certain root-stocks are influencing more than just the vigour of growth on the grafted scion. I have heard of this but great if someone has got some written research on it. It is quite surprising as it would mean that the cider influence is passed up through the cambium layer in the xylem and phloem - remarkable, but not impossible, I guess

Looking forward to hearing more!

Mark

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[Eric Tyira]

Interesting thought.  Talking out of my arse, cider is based on the chemistry of the juice and thus the apple.  If the rootstock affects more than the health or vigor of the tree, could it thus affect the chemistry of the apple?  If we change how we eat, and more specifically change the quantities of certain foods we eat, they will surely affect us one way or the other.  Is the same to be said for how apples are fed from the tree from the rootstock?  All the nourishment comes from the ground, yes?  Perhaps different rootstocks feed different amounts of nutrients and you end up with different results.

It would be easy enough to analyze if someone has the same apple growing on different rootstock and were to have the resulting fruits analyzed for nutrient content.  A controlled experiment could be done with cider making from the different fruit but conditions would have to be strict and identical.

Reading his question below, I thought he was asking more about letting an MM106 rootstock grow into a tree and using the apples from that tree to make cider.

[goet...@gmail.com]

Can you cite the article? Wouldn’t it be ironic for those of us hurriedly planning grafting combinations if simply planting some rootstock garnered great results?

[Brian Drake]

There’s a great deal of research and care that has been applied to wine grape cultivation for optimal juice characteristics.  For cider, seems we have a frontier to explore - makes me happy to see these sort of questions!

Beyond rootstock alone, consider the management practices that may accompany a rootstock selection.  MM106 has a much more extensive rooting network than say a dwarf MM or Bud9 dwarf.  Dwarf trees require more intensive fertilization and irrigation as a result.  Does this result in differences in apple/must/cider quality? 

Fungicide spray applications (copper as well as conventional OP) likely have some interactions with tree physiology and chemistry, as well as on the fungal network on the trees and especially in the soil.  Apples have sparse roots and rely heavily on ectomycorrhizal relationships for nutrition.  

We don’t understand much of this, at least in terms of how these specifically affect cider quality and characteristics, but I personally believe this is our craft’s inevitable evolution even if still many years off.

Cheers!

Brian 

OOLLC

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018, <goet...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you cite the article? Wouldn’t it be ironic for those of us hurriedly planning grafting combinations if simply planting some rootstock garnered great results?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 18 décembre 2018 13:00:11 UTC-5, Eric Tyira a écrit :

Reading his question below, I thought he was asking more about letting an MM106 rootstock grow into a tree and using the apples from that tree to make cider.

Yes in effect this was the original question...

I have also heard about the fact MM-106 would yield acceptable fruit for cider making.

I haven't seen or tasted the apples of 106 though, so I can't tell more.

I doubt however that it could be on par with the the good cider varieties - otherwise I think someone would know about it!

Claude

[Michael Davidson]

Let's see if I can make this work.
http://www.suttonelms.org.uk/mm106.html?fbclid=IwAR0xPY8H3_jIy2_4xhenLv9qcQ1HNtFxNnerUioGz_hz7pf-Rv3ypZrrJ3I

That should link to the article. I have a 106 rootstock I planted three years ago that deer killed the graft but the rootstock survived. I went out and checked and it has flower buds on it. It was slated to turn into a Mammoth Blacktwig next spring but now I'm not so sure about that.

[Richard Torrens (lists)]

In article <84b0fd4a-1b9d-4f64...@googlegroups.com>,

Michael Davidson <mdvd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let's see if I can make this work.
> http://www.suttonelms.org.uk/mm106.html?fbclid=IwAR0xPY8H3_jIy2_4xhenLv9qcQ1HNtFxNnerUioGz_hz7pf-Rv3ypZrrJ3I

http://www.suttonelms.org.uk/mm106.html
is all you need.

--
Richard Torrens, Burwell, Cambs, UK.

[Raglan Cider Mill]

This article indicates that the  MM106 produces a decent dessert apple.  It doesn’t appear to say anything about its cider making qualities unless I’m missing something.

Sally

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[Michael Davidson]

No, you didn't miss anything. However the question on the NAFEX thread is regarding its usefulness for cider. That is the basic question we are trying to find an answer to.

[CiderSupply.com]

I have sevral MM-106 where just left alone because the grafts diddnt take that have fruited. The apples were junk cider apples in my book. Low brix about 11 at best. Were on the acidic side with not even any real aromatics. Midseason ripening.

Best regards
Chris Rylands
Renaissance Orchards
Ferndale, WA

[Claude Jolicoeur]

On the subject of fruiting rootstocks,

Has anyone seen/tasted/tried in cider the fruit of the B-118 rootstock?

This rootstock has reddish wood and bronze leafes, indicating a Malus Niedzwetzkyana parentage. It would then probably have redflesh apples.

Claude

[richard....@idyll-acres.com]

I have several fruiting Bud.9 rootstocks. Apples are deep red, almost purple, and plum-shaped. Flesh is red-pink and (as I recall) becomes more white towards the core. Tastes acidic. Never tried in cider, but maybe could get some rosé color effects from it?

[Dick Dunn]

(sub-thread shifting from MM-106 to Bud-118)

Claude - The information I have on Bud-118 (via Treco's rootstock book)
doesn't indicate any Niedzwetzkyana background. Rather, they say:
"Bud 118 comes from a cross of Moscow Pear (a very winter hardy scion
cultivar) and a mixture of M-8 and M-9 pollen...[with a credit to Dr
Budagovski]"

On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 07:29:26AM -0800, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
> On the subject of fruiting rootstocks,
> Has anyone seen/tasted/tried in cider the fruit of the B-118 rootstock?
> This rootstock has reddish wood and bronze leafes, indicating a Malus
> Niedzwetzkyana parentage. It would then probably have redflesh apples.
> Claude

...
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Yes Dick, I had seen this.

However... Moscow Pear is seed parent - do we know anything about this variety? Could it be redfleshed?

For pollen parent, they are not sure really. Probably M-8 and M-9 were the closest trees and the breeder has assumed one of the two provided the pollen, but there could have been a redflesh tree just a bit further that may actually have provided the pollen.

Now we know for sure there was a variety called Krasnij Standart somewhere around, as this variety is credited to be parent of B-9, and B-9 is redflesh. The word Krasnij is related to red (krasny means red and beautiful in Polish). I would assume this Krasnij Standart could be a Niedzwetzkyana cross or selection.

Or maybe B-9 could have been pollen parent?

Claude

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Just on a side note, all of my Bud-118 have a heavy pink-colored vascular cambium very indicative of red fleshed apples.

 

Best regards

Chris Rylands

Renaissance Orchards

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 10:57 AM
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Fruit from an ungrafted MM106 rootstock forcider

 

Yes Dick, I had seen this.

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 21 décembre 2018 16:10:58 UTC-5, CiderSupply.com a écrit :

Just on a side note, all of my Bud-118 have a heavy pink-colored vascular cambium very indicative of red fleshed apples.

Yes, and also bronze leafes, another indication of Niedzwetzkyana parentage.

In any case I am leaving one ungrafted, so I'll know in a few years...

Claude

[Dick Dunn]

Claude - You seem focused on Niedzwetzkyana in particular, as opposed to a
more general idea of a red-fleshed parent. Why?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 21 décembre 2018 19:43:08 UTC-5, Dick a écrit :

Claude - You seem focused on Niedzwetzkyana in particular, as opposed to a
more general idea of a red-fleshed parent.  Why?

Dick, I'll try to explain my line of thought...

As far as I know, all apples that are redflesh, combined with the other characteristics like bronze foliage, red bloom and red cambium have some Niedzwetzkyana parentage. Actually, pure M. niedzwetzkyana is probably a M. sieversii (or a mutation), as it occurs naturally in the Tian Shan mountains of Kazakhstan and Kirghistan, in the wild forests of M. sieversii. It was discovered there by the Russian botanist Niedzwetzky. In 1897, Hansen got its hands on it while travelling to Russia and brought it in the US. From there on it was used by many breeders in Canada and in the US and has been the genetic source of the redflesh characters in most/all North American redflesh apples that we now know. It was also used as a parent in Russia by Michurin to breed redflesh varieties in Europe. One variety used by cidermakers in Germany called Weirouge comes from this Michurin program. And I suspect the red characters we see in some of the Bud rootstocks come from this line of Russian/Michurin breeding of Niedzwetzkyana.

I am not aware of any other genetic source for these characters - maybe there are, in which case I'd be happy to learn about it.

The so-called Surprise apple is a source of pink flesh but not of the other characters (bronze leafes and red wood), and this probably would be some other genetic origin. This one was used by Etter in his breeding that produced such apples as Pink Pearl. Also by Fred Janson in Canada who obtained Pink Princess. However these pink flesh apples have no red/purple/bronze leaves nor reddish cambium. And the juice doesn't have enough pigments to make a rosé cider.

Claude

[CiderSupply.com]

Claude, the Pendragon i grow is almost identical to to Niedzwetzkyana in the ways you describe, even with the dark colored bark, but has the deepest and far most red flesh than all of the ones i grow, moreso than Niedzwetzkyana. The Pendragon dates back in England at least 800 years and is also available in the US. However with that said, it is a different shaped apple. So you may want to include this cultivar in your research. attached are a couple of photos.

[Andrew Lea]

This article is quite helpful i think.  It confirms that nearly all red fleshed apples have Niedwtzkyana parentage.  

http://eacademic.ju.edu.jo/drnihad/Lists/Published%20Research/Attachments/5/Genetic.pdf

Of course not all the apples would have been specifically bred or crossed. Many of these eg the UK Beauty of Bath, could be from wildlings that incorporate Niedwetzkyana parentage. It is only a sport or variety of Sieversii after all. 

Btw I know nothing of the Pendragon variety that Chris mentions. I never heard of it in the UK and it isn’t in our National Collection at Brogdale AFAIK. If it’s been grown here for 800 years that would be news to many of us! Perhaps it acquired its rather romantic name after importation to American shores?

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Andrew Lea]

Sounds as if Pendragon was discovered as a single (seedling?) tree in Cornwall (hence the name) only 30 years ago.  See http://www.suttonelms.org.uk/pendragon.html

There is a newspaper article (Daily Telegraph) claiming an 800 year old history but no evidence is provided for that statement. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I think we need to make a distinction between:

1- Niedzwetzkyana taken as a variety or a cultivar that is propagated by grafting and whose picture was shown by Chris earlier. This is doubtless from the material that was brought in the US by Hansen in 1897, either identical or a cross from that material and very close genetically.

2- Malus Niedzwetzkyana taken as a species, or rather as a sub-species of Malus sieversii. (Note that I have also read about it as being a subspecies of M. pumila). I am not a botanist, but I believe this would formally be written as Malus sieversii ssp niedzwetzkyana (or something similar).

When the species is considered, there would be a lot more genetical diversity than in the variety. The variety is just one particular individual taken from the whole population of the species. And this might be the reason why Dick raised the question yesterday as to why I was focused on Niedzwetzkyana. Confusion might have occured, as I was considering the species, while Dick was probably considering the variety?

Claude

P.S. Andrew, I can't reach the link you gave earlier, I get a msg saying server too busy...

http://eacademic.ju.edu.jo/drnihad/Lists/Published%20Research/Attachments/5/Genetic.pdf

[Andrew Lea]

Yes I think your point is valid, but the paper also seemed to imply no distinction (genetically) between Hansen’s material and other red fleshed varieties which long pre-date it.  I seem to remember reading elsewhere that the intensity of pigment is simply due to the number of copies of the “anthocyanin gene” (though it certainly isn’t just one simple enzyme that’s expressed).

Here is a link just to the abstract https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10681-011-0579-7

But I did manage to download the whole paper earlier today.  I found it via Google Scholar. 

Try again later perhaps?

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[jitd...@aol.com]

Pendragon probably crossed the Atlantic with Brendon in his coracle!

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk>
To: cider-workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 10:55
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Red fleshed apple [was Fruit from an ungrafted MM106 rootstock forcider]


Sounds as if Pendragon was discovered as a single (seedling?) tree in Cornwall (hence the name) only 30 years ago.  See http://www.suttonelms.org.uk/pendragon.html


There is a newspaper article (Daily Telegraph) claiming an 800 year old history but no evidence is provided for that statement. 

Andrew


Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 22 Dec 2018, at 07:45, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:







This article is quite helpful i think.  It confirms that nearly all red fleshed apples have Niedwtzkyana parentage.  
http://eacademic.ju.edu.jo/drnihad/Lists/Published%20Research/Attachments/5/Genetic.pdf


Of course not all the apples would have been specifically bred or crossed. Many of these eg the UK Beauty of Bath, could be from wildlings that incorporate Niedwetzkyana parentage. It is only a sport or variety of Sieversii after all. 


Btw I know nothing of the Pendragon variety that Chris mentions. I never heard of it in the UK and it isn’t in our National Collection at Brogdale AFAIK. If it’s been grown here for 800 years that would be news to many of us! Perhaps it acquired its rather romantic name after importation to American shores?

Andrew




Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 22 Dec 2018, at 01:23, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:



Le vendredi 21 décembre 2018 19:43:08 UTC-5, Dick a écrit :
Claude - You seem focused on Niedzwetzkyana in particular, as opposed to a
more general idea of a red-fleshed parent.  Why?



Dick, I'll try to explain my line of thought...

As far as I know, all apples that are redflesh, combined with the other characteristics like bronze foliage, red bloom and red cambium have some Niedzwetzkyana parentage. Actually, pure M. niedzwetzkyana is probably a M. sieversii (or a mutation), as it occurs naturally in the Tian Shan mountains of Kazakhstan and Kirghistan, in the wild forests of M. sieversii. It was discovered there by the Russian botanist Niedzwetzky. In 1897, Hansen got its hands on it while travelling to Russia and brought it in the US. From there on it was used by many breeders in Canada and in the US and has been the genetic source of the redflesh characters in most/all North American redflesh apples that we now know. It was also used as a parent in Russia by Michurin to breed redflesh varieties in Europe. One variety used by cidermakers in Germany called Weirouge comes from this Michurin program. And I suspect the red characters we see in some of the Bud rootstocks come from this line of Russian/Michurin breeding of Niedzwetzkyana.


I am not aware of any other genetic source for these characters - maybe there are, in which case I'd be happy to learn about it.


The so-called Surprise apple is a source of pink flesh but not of the other characters (bronze leafes and red wood), and this probably would be some other genetic origin. This one was used by Etter in his breeding that produced such apples as Pink Pearl. Also by Fred Janson in Canada who obtained Pink Princess. However these pink flesh apples have no red/purple/bronze leaves nor reddish cambium. And the juice doesn't have enough pigments to make a rosé cider.



Claude

[Andrew Lea]

I did manage to download (and save!) the paper again this morning (UK time). Perhaps Claude you will be lucky too!

Now that I read it more carefully, it’s not so clear to me that the traditional large fruited partially red fleshed varieties from the UK such as Beauty of Bath actually do have Niedwetskyana parentage. It appears that may only be true of the more modern red varieties which were bred as ornamentals. The way the paper is written seems slightly equivocal to me.  Not being a geneticist, I find I’m floundering slightly on its precise meaning!

I think what I’m beginning to understand maybe is that there is an “anthocyanin gene” which is present to a high degree in all Niedwetskyana apples and their progeny, but which is present to a lesser extent in other red fleshed cultivated apples which may have originated from parallel varieties of Sieversii.  It’s as if the true Niedwetskyana and its derivatives are at one end of a continuum as far as red flesh is concerned, with other red fleshed cultivars of a more traditional sort being somewhere in the middle.  There are several papers on red fleshed cultivars and Niedwetskyana via Google Scholar but it would take a while to read and understand them all. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 23 décembre 2018 05:15:40 UTC-5, Andrew Lea a écrit :

I did manage to download (and save!) the paper again this morning (UK time). Perhaps Claude you will be lucky too!

I was able to get it yesterday evening. Trying to find time to read it...

Claude

[Claude Jolicoeur]

And by the way there is an interesting article on the work of Etter and a bit on Hansen here

http://www.appleluscious.com/albert_etter_article/albert_etter_article_intro.html