Another Image of Churchill
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Terry Reardon
Jul 16, 2015, 3:53:25 PM7/16/15
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We clearly know the opinion of Winston and Clementine on the Graham
Sutherland painting, but what was their opinion of the “Roaring Lion” photograph
by Yousuf Karsh?
While to the best of my knowledge Winston Churchill is not on record as
having given an opinion, we do have his reaction by way of Clementine. As
I said in my book (take every opportunity!) on Churchill & Mackenzie
King, the diary of King of May 6, 1944 recorded a conversation with Clementine.
“She (Clementine) does not like the Karsh picture, neither does Churchill
himself. She said ‘He really has a more playful expression about his mouth.’”
Now I wonder if Adolph Hitler ever commented on it!
Terry Reardon
Terry Reardon
Jul 16, 2015, 3:57:35 PM7/16/15
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OOPS!
Before someone comments - of course it should be Adolf.
Terry Reardon
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Antoine Capet
Jul 16, 2015, 4:47:32 PM7/16/15
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Dear Terry,
No harm done in anglicising Adolf - except that the custom among historians is to anglicise the (first) names of kings, emperors
and popes : perhaps too great an honour for "that man".
On a more serious note :
I was struck when recently reading the late Sir Martin's masterpiece, _ In Search of Churchill_ (by the way, many thanks to the
List Members who wrote it was priority reading - they were absolutely right) that he said why he had rejected that world-famous
portrait in favour of a warmer one (albeit also by Karsh at the same session) for the photograph on his dust cover. Was he
influenced by Clementine's opinion (which he no doubt knew) ? - that will remain forever an interesting question.
Best,
A.C.
==================
No harm done in anglicising Adolf - except that the custom among historians is to anglicise the (first) names of kings, emperors
and popes : perhaps too great an honour for "that man".
On a more serious note :
I was struck when recently reading the late Sir Martin's masterpiece, _ In Search of Churchill_ (by the way, many thanks to the
List Members who wrote it was priority reading - they were absolutely right) that he said why he had rejected that world-famous
portrait in favour of a warmer one (albeit also by Karsh at the same session) for the photograph on his dust cover. Was he
influenced by Clementine's opinion (which he no doubt knew) ? - that will remain forever an interesting question.
Best,
A.C.
==================
PatFinn1940
Jul 17, 2015, 2:53:22 PM7/17/15
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I have that 'warmer' photo by Karsh on my copy of Sir Martin's one-volume Churchill biography (it was the first book Sir Martin sent me, after we began our correspondence in 2006). It's one of my favorite Churchill photos. I wonder how Karsh got him to smile for it, after the 'scowling lion' one was taken?
And you are right about 'In Search of Churchill' being a 'masterpiece'. It helped a lot with the background of how the young Martin Gilbert became the 'official' biographer after Randolph Churchill's death. And the stories of how he tracked down so many of Churchill's colleagues were both very amusing--and something of a 'spy novel'!
(Ms.) Pat Finnegan
And you are right about 'In Search of Churchill' being a 'masterpiece'. It helped a lot with the background of how the young Martin Gilbert became the 'official' biographer after Randolph Churchill's death. And the stories of how he tracked down so many of Churchill's colleagues were both very amusing--and something of a 'spy novel'!
(Ms.) Pat Finnegan
Sandy Finlayson
Jul 17, 2015, 3:32:52 PM7/17/15
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I couldn’t agree more with the comments regarding In Search of Churchill. It is quite simply among the best books on WSC.
Sandy
--------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Sandy Finlayson
Director of Library Services &
Professor of Theological Bibliography
Westminster Theological Seminary
Philadelphia, PA
"Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers.
A librarian can bring you back the right one."
~ Neil Gaiman
Antoine Capet
Jul 17, 2015, 4:01:06 PM7/17/15
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Dear Ms Finnegan,
When you write "the stories of how he tracked down so many of Churchill's colleagues were both very amusing--and something of a
'spy novel'!" I do not know which is your favourite.
For my part, I was left speechless when I read how he had "tracked down" the estate agent (realtor, I think, in American English)
who negotiated the transaction for Chartwell - so many years after the event !
This is definitely my favourite story in the book.
Best wishes,
A.C.
=====
When you write "the stories of how he tracked down so many of Churchill's colleagues were both very amusing--and something of a
'spy novel'!" I do not know which is your favourite.
For my part, I was left speechless when I read how he had "tracked down" the estate agent (realtor, I think, in American English)
who negotiated the transaction for Chartwell - so many years after the event !
This is definitely my favourite story in the book.
Best wishes,
A.C.
=====
Pat Finnegan
Jul 17, 2015, 4:19:36 PM7/17/15
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Hello, Professor Capet--
I think there was one story about how Sir Martin tracked down a man who had secretly given Churchill some reports about what Hitler and the Nazis were doing during the 1930s--without PM Chamberlain's knowledge. The man was afraid that he would be killed--or at least seriously injured--if the truth came out.You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "ChurchillChat" group.
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Antoine Capet
Jul 18, 2015, 6:03:36 AM7/18/15
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Dear Ms Finnegan,
Thanks to the excellent index, as usual, I was able to find the relevant passage almost immediately : it runs from p.131 to p.135.
Incidentally, reading that passage again, I noticed that Sir Martin suggests that Ralph Wigram died of polio (bottom of p.133).
But in the excellent TV series, _The Wilderness Years_* (for which I seem to remember that Sir Martin was historical adviser),
Ralph Wigram is shown as committing suicide.
Any lights from List Members on this apparent contradiction ?
Best wishes,
A.C.
*Easily available on DVD, and unreservedly recommended
===========
mailto:churchillchat%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com.
Thanks to the excellent index, as usual, I was able to find the relevant passage almost immediately : it runs from p.131 to p.135.
Incidentally, reading that passage again, I noticed that Sir Martin suggests that Ralph Wigram died of polio (bottom of p.133).
But in the excellent TV series, _The Wilderness Years_* (for which I seem to remember that Sir Martin was historical adviser),
Ralph Wigram is shown as committing suicide.
Any lights from List Members on this apparent contradiction ?
Best wishes,
A.C.
*Easily available on DVD, and unreservedly recommended
===========
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Richard M. Langworth
Jul 18, 2015, 9:47:15 AM7/18/15
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Terry Reardon modestly doesn't mention that he was responsible for unearthing all seven of the 1941 Karsh Ottawa photos. While Lady Soames (and presumably CSC) thought Karsh 2 ("Smiling Lion") a truer portrait, she said when I showed it to her that Karsh 3, with Mackenzie King (attached), was yet more accurate. All seven photos appeared on the cover and centerspread of Finest Hour 162.
Karsh 3 was published only once before, and the others never, as far as I know. Mr. Karsh preferred they be ignored so as not to detract from the first two. Of course the "Angry Lion" was the one that secured his fame. But I remember Martin Gilbert's excitement after choosing "Smiling Lion" for the U.S. jacket of Churchill a Life (1991). He agreed it was a truer portrait and thought it was the first time it had been used on a book jacket. He liked it so much that he later used it on In Search of Churchill (1994).
Karsh explained that the Smiling Lion #2 photo was snapped when WSC relaxed after the photographer had yanked his cigar out of his mouth for the first photo. He told Karsh: "You can even make a roaring lion stand still to be photographed." He then allowed Karsh to take five more. Only in the last did WSC get his cigar back....
Jonah Triebwssser
Jul 18, 2015, 1:34:51 PM7/18/15
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I had the pleasure of being a guest in Sir Martin's home for tea many years ago. The conversation turned to "The Wilderness Years. Sir Martin said that some characters were combined intio one, some events were compressed in time, and some events were pure fantasy. He was not happy with that. Regards-Jonah
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Antoine Capet
Jul 18, 2015, 2:49:52 PM7/18/15
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Dear Jonah,
Many thanks for this most useful indication, of considerable importance.
Horrible news, in fact - it means that though Sir Martin was the official historical adviser, the producers did not stick to the
facts which he no doubt gave them.
I wonder what other people and "events" are "pure fantasy" in this TV series which I rated highly until you told us what Sir
Martin himself thought of it.
I naïvely believed that, since Sir Martin had been the official historical adviser behind the series, everything in it was "true
to the facts" !
This is the eternal problem associated with liars : when can you trust them ? In other words, the rivetting episodes about the
Manchester cotton trade association and the India Bill might also be "pure fantasy" . . .
Why on earth do TV and film producers believe that they have a God-given right to take liberties with established facts ?
We all know the despicable meaning of "being creative with the truth" . . . !
Best wishes,
A.C.
========
Many thanks for this most useful indication, of considerable importance.
Horrible news, in fact - it means that though Sir Martin was the official historical adviser, the producers did not stick to the
facts which he no doubt gave them.
I wonder what other people and "events" are "pure fantasy" in this TV series which I rated highly until you told us what Sir
Martin himself thought of it.
I naïvely believed that, since Sir Martin had been the official historical adviser behind the series, everything in it was "true
to the facts" !
This is the eternal problem associated with liars : when can you trust them ? In other words, the rivetting episodes about the
Manchester cotton trade association and the India Bill might also be "pure fantasy" . . .
Why on earth do TV and film producers believe that they have a God-given right to take liberties with established facts ?
We all know the despicable meaning of "being creative with the truth" . . . !
Best wishes,
A.C.
========
Jon Lellenberg
Jul 18, 2015, 8:07:14 PM7/18/15
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I don't know what the truth is about Ralph Wigram's death, and would like to know. Wikipedia says:
Wigram's sudden death is somewhat mysterious. Again, sources disagree, on several points. For one, some say he was found dead at home, but a letter from Churchill says he died in Ava's arms.[8][9] His death certificate recorded the cause of death as pulmonary haemorrhage, but a letter from [British historian] Henry Pelling indicates he committed suicide while deeply depressed.[8][7] The fact that his own parents did not attend his funeral is cited as support for this theory (although Churchill and his family did attend, along with a number of others such as Robert Vansittart and Brendan Bracken).[8][7] Churchill's letters indicate (but only indirectly) that depression and suicide were the cause.[7] Polio has also been put forward as a cause by some sources.[5]
Source 8 is Thorpe, Vanessa (22 June 2002). "The man who told Churchill to take on Hitler". The Guardian. This about controversies over not The Wilderness Years, but Albert Finney's BBC production The Gathering Storm, and cites its scriptwriter (Hugh Whitemore) saying: "Churchill was a natural leader, with no self-doubt, and that was what the nation needed. But Wigram, he was just a normal man and not naturally brave, more like the rest of us. I don't think he could cope. His death certificate says he died of a pulmonary haemorrhage, but if I had to guess I would say it was suicide. His own parents did not attend his funeral." The entire article, which inspires little confidence in the issue of Wigram's death, can be read at http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/23/filmnews.film
Source 7 is William Manchester's The Last Lion, p. 193. I'm away from home and books, but this is apparently the Henry Pelling reference, and perhaps someone can let us know what it says.
Todd Ronnei
Jul 18, 2015, 8:12:44 PM7/18/15
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I've had the Karsh portraits on my site for some time:
http://www.ronnei.com/KarshWSC.html
-Todd Ronnei
http://www.ronnei.com/KarshWSC.html
-Todd Ronnei
Antoine Capet
Jul 19, 2015, 6:01:06 AM7/19/15
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Dear Jon,
Many thanks for these "leads".
I have Pelling's History of British Trade Unionism, but not his Churchill.
The good news, however, is that I have The Caged (not Last) Lion, and indeed there are several paragraphs on pages 192-193
discussing Wigram's death.
W. Manchester gives the Pelling quote : "depression overtook him and he committed suicide", and he accepts this as final : he does
not even mention the polio hypothesis. In fact, he then accuses WSC of being "less than generous" in blaming Wigram for having
"deserted his post in his country's hour of need". This is from an interpretation of his correspondence with CSC over this sad
event. W. Manchester also recalls Boothby's judgement that WSC could be cruel.
Incidentally, in "Herbert Henry Asquith", published in 1928 and reprinted in _Great Contemporaries_, WSC wrote about Gladstone's
saying that "a PM should be a good butcher", as applied by Asquith, who never spared his political friends. WSC concludes : "But
how else can States be governed?" thus supporting Boothby's judgement.
So the puzzle - why Sir Martin only spoke of polio - remains intact.
Best,
A.C.
============
mailto:mailto:churchillchat%252Buns...@googlegroups.com.
Many thanks for these "leads".
I have Pelling's History of British Trade Unionism, but not his Churchill.
The good news, however, is that I have The Caged (not Last) Lion, and indeed there are several paragraphs on pages 192-193
discussing Wigram's death.
W. Manchester gives the Pelling quote : "depression overtook him and he committed suicide", and he accepts this as final : he does
not even mention the polio hypothesis. In fact, he then accuses WSC of being "less than generous" in blaming Wigram for having
"deserted his post in his country's hour of need". This is from an interpretation of his correspondence with CSC over this sad
event. W. Manchester also recalls Boothby's judgement that WSC could be cruel.
Incidentally, in "Herbert Henry Asquith", published in 1928 and reprinted in _Great Contemporaries_, WSC wrote about Gladstone's
saying that "a PM should be a good butcher", as applied by Asquith, who never spared his political friends. WSC concludes : "But
how else can States be governed?" thus supporting Boothby's judgement.
So the puzzle - why Sir Martin only spoke of polio - remains intact.
Best,
A.C.
============
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Jon Lellenberg
Jul 19, 2015, 6:49:13 PM7/19/15
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Thanks very much. I certainly don't know the full answer, and it sounds like The Wilderness Years dramatization may have picked the possibility regarding Wigram's death that made for the most drama, but it doesn't sound like the script came up with suicide out of whole cloth.
Bob Allen
Jul 20, 2015, 10:18:52 AM7/20/15
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I remember reading (it may have been in William Manchester's "The Last Lion") that Karsh asked the great man to remove his cigar from his mouth prior to taking the photograph. Churchill declined, so Karsh simply reached out and removed it for him. Churchill scowled and Karsh snapped the first photo. A moment later, Churchill, realizing that he had been bested, smiled, and Karsh took the second shot.
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Cullen, Anthony
Jul 20, 2015, 12:37:17 PM7/20/15
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I like this story …
Anthony Cullen, MCSE, MCSA
Sr. Technical Support Specialist, Enterprise Informatics
Information Sciences Department
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901-595-3767 (Office)
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Finding cures, Saving Children
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