Comparing the Eagle to the S2C
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Mark Barker
May 11, 2012, 11:53:41 AM5/11/12
to Christen-Eagle
I am working on a check out in a Pitts S2C, getting ready to fly my
Eagle for the first time. I would love to hear comments about the
differences in take offs, approaches, landing, and the roll out.
After a life time of Alaska wheel landings in 185s, cubs, and Beavers,
(and usually wheel landings) --- it is a lot of work to get this Pitts
figured out, but it is slowly coming. If you have flown both I would
love to hear your thoughts, or a description of you techniques in your
Eagle.
thanks
Mark
Eagle for the first time. I would love to hear comments about the
differences in take offs, approaches, landing, and the roll out.
After a life time of Alaska wheel landings in 185s, cubs, and Beavers,
(and usually wheel landings) --- it is a lot of work to get this Pitts
figured out, but it is slowly coming. If you have flown both I would
love to hear your thoughts, or a description of you techniques in your
Eagle.
thanks
Mark
cjw77090
May 11, 2012, 1:43:51 PM5/11/12
to Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
Hi,
I have no Eagle experience, I have a lot of Pitts S-1T, some S-2B experience and I used to own a 185.
As a, pilot, CFI and an engineer with relevant experience I would expect the Eagle to perform on landings somewhere between S-1T and S-2B(C). In either of the above cases I recommend to do NO WHEEL LANDINGS, other than in exceptional conditions, preferably on the mild weather side, for practice only, AND only when the pilot is very confident and experienced in his plane.
On extremely light, fast landing planes with bungee gears like the above mentioned planes, the standard, recommended landings are three wheel landings with very decisive 'locking' of the stick all the way back immediately upon the landings. In crosswind conditions the stick control is upwind and as much downwind rudder as required to control weather-vaning.
The above is consistent with the teaching of those specialized flight schools I am aware of.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
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I have no Eagle experience, I have a lot of Pitts S-1T, some S-2B experience and I used to own a 185.
As a, pilot, CFI and an engineer with relevant experience I would expect the Eagle to perform on landings somewhere between S-1T and S-2B(C). In either of the above cases I recommend to do NO WHEEL LANDINGS, other than in exceptional conditions, preferably on the mild weather side, for practice only, AND only when the pilot is very confident and experienced in his plane.
On extremely light, fast landing planes with bungee gears like the above mentioned planes, the standard, recommended landings are three wheel landings with very decisive 'locking' of the stick all the way back immediately upon the landings. In crosswind conditions the stick control is upwind and as much downwind rudder as required to control weather-vaning.
The above is consistent with the teaching of those specialized flight schools I am aware of.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
<texting disabled>
Sent from my iPad
> To post to this group, send email to: Christe...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe, send email to: Christen-Eagl...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit: http://groups.google.com/group/Christen-Eagle?hl=en
>
> Christen Eagle II Website:
> http://www.musclebiplane.org/htmlfile/eaglehm.htm
>
> Page Downloads:
> https://groups.google.com/group/christen-eagle/download?hl=en&s=pages
> File Downloads:
> https://groups.google.com/group/christen-eagle/download?hl=en&s=files
> .
cjw77090
May 11, 2012, 3:28:41 PM5/11/12
to cjw77090, Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
Oops, I mean three point landings. And, by the way, tail wheel first is infinitely ubetter than is tail-wheel last.
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
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Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
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Sent from my iPad
Pete
May 11, 2012, 7:15:11 PM5/11/12
to cjw77090, Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
Chris,
I would like offer a little bit of additional information. The Eagle is
basically a much more comfortable Pitts S-2A. The Eagle will not drop out
of the sky like the heavier S-2B and S-2C. It also lands a little slower
than the S-2B and S-2C due to having the same wing area, but less gross
weight.
I have about 100 hours in the Pitts series, with most of it in the S-2A
(mine), the S-1S (mine), the S-2C and lastly, the S-2B. The Eagle flies
very much like the S-2A. I have about 3 flights in the Eagle. The Eagle I
flew in was an Oshkosh award winner, so it was VERY NICE. I only flew the
Eagle down to a really low approach, The visibility seemed better to me,
thus making approach and landing less of a mystery. The "cone of
invisibility" seemed smaller than in the Pitts. The big difference between
the Pitts family and the Eagle is the landing gear. I can't speak to the
differences in "feel."
I always 3-point landed the Pitts. I have only seen I person do a wheel
landing in a Pitts, and that was Curt Langenhorst at Chandler Air Service.
Curt is the chief flight instructor there and has more time inverted in a
left turn than I have total time. Curt taught me to fly aerobatics and he
always said to 3-point land the Pitts. In the Great Lakes, we did both
3-point and Wheel landings.
Another really good resource is Budd Davisson. Budd is a friend and he
teaches people to land the Pitts. You might ask him:
http://www.airbum.com/Pitts/PittsFlightTraining.html
My semi-educated guess is that if you trained in an S-2C, the Eagle would be
easier due to a lower sink rate and better visibility.
I hope this was worth the time it took you to read it.
Pete Rouse
I would like offer a little bit of additional information. The Eagle is
basically a much more comfortable Pitts S-2A. The Eagle will not drop out
of the sky like the heavier S-2B and S-2C. It also lands a little slower
than the S-2B and S-2C due to having the same wing area, but less gross
weight.
I have about 100 hours in the Pitts series, with most of it in the S-2A
(mine), the S-1S (mine), the S-2C and lastly, the S-2B. The Eagle flies
very much like the S-2A. I have about 3 flights in the Eagle. The Eagle I
flew in was an Oshkosh award winner, so it was VERY NICE. I only flew the
Eagle down to a really low approach, The visibility seemed better to me,
thus making approach and landing less of a mystery. The "cone of
invisibility" seemed smaller than in the Pitts. The big difference between
the Pitts family and the Eagle is the landing gear. I can't speak to the
differences in "feel."
I always 3-point landed the Pitts. I have only seen I person do a wheel
landing in a Pitts, and that was Curt Langenhorst at Chandler Air Service.
Curt is the chief flight instructor there and has more time inverted in a
left turn than I have total time. Curt taught me to fly aerobatics and he
always said to 3-point land the Pitts. In the Great Lakes, we did both
3-point and Wheel landings.
Another really good resource is Budd Davisson. Budd is a friend and he
teaches people to land the Pitts. You might ask him:
http://www.airbum.com/Pitts/PittsFlightTraining.html
My semi-educated guess is that if you trained in an S-2C, the Eagle would be
easier due to a lower sink rate and better visibility.
I hope this was worth the time it took you to read it.
Pete Rouse
Bruce Green
May 11, 2012, 7:39:57 PM5/11/12
to christe...@googlegroups.com
Mark,
I echo the comments of Chris and Pete regarding the wheel landings. I have never done one in the Eagle or in my Skybolt. With these planes you have complete control authority even below stall speed, so it isn't like a cub where you want to carry extra speed on a gusty day just so you have enough control authority to keep the plane upright.
I can't speak to the differences to an S2C, but I think he visibility is better in the Eagle when you are solo, with a passenger, I think the pitts has a little better visibility. But bottom line, it is like any other taildragger, keep it straight and land with the stick in your gut and you will be ok. I am at 90 over the fence and less than 80 when I get to the runway. I know some others advocate carrying a little power and flying down to the runway at 70-75. That probably works nicer, but I like being used to no power just in case, well just in case there is no power.
Bruce Green
Eagle N110GM
cjw77090
May 11, 2012, 8:32:09 PM5/11/12
to Pete, Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
Mark,
You can see that Pete, myself and our previous instructors all agree: 3 point landings. My original instructor used to ask me 'to feel for the runway' with the tail wheel. That was a great advice.
My S-1T glides slightly easier than the S-2B does, the approach to landing is 5 to 10 mph slower and the 'visibility cone' is much narrower than it is in the S-2B. The engine in the S-1T - AEIO-360-A1E (200HP) is the same as that in the Eagle, and that is the reason for the latter similarity.
I have only once seen somebody wheel landing the S-2B, it was Jordan Schultz, last year, near San Antonio, TX. He did a very good job, I was flying with him in his plane.
I have about 900 hrs in my S-1T, about 40 in S-2Bs. I have just recovered my S-1T (Aviat's N49330) and she is now probably one of the lightest S1Ts that fly - empty weight 883 lb.
My 185 and other tail-dragger experience do not count. The early stick (or yoke) back technique is similar to that used in landing floatplanes.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
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You can see that Pete, myself and our previous instructors all agree: 3 point landings. My original instructor used to ask me 'to feel for the runway' with the tail wheel. That was a great advice.
My S-1T glides slightly easier than the S-2B does, the approach to landing is 5 to 10 mph slower and the 'visibility cone' is much narrower than it is in the S-2B. The engine in the S-1T - AEIO-360-A1E (200HP) is the same as that in the Eagle, and that is the reason for the latter similarity.
I have only once seen somebody wheel landing the S-2B, it was Jordan Schultz, last year, near San Antonio, TX. He did a very good job, I was flying with him in his plane.
I have about 900 hrs in my S-1T, about 40 in S-2Bs. I have just recovered my S-1T (Aviat's N49330) and she is now probably one of the lightest S1Ts that fly - empty weight 883 lb.
My 185 and other tail-dragger experience do not count. The early stick (or yoke) back technique is similar to that used in landing floatplanes.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
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Cr...@craiggifford.com
May 11, 2012, 10:14:23 PM5/11/12
to cjw77090, Pete, Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
I dunno guys - go to YouTube, search on austinaviator, watch the Christen
Eagle Aerobatics video for a wheel landing at the end. I actually prefer
it - better visibility throughout landing, less bouncing on the aluminum
gear, and believe it or not shorter landing length because not floating
waiting for speed to bleed down to 50mph.
Craig
N726SM
Eagle Aerobatics video for a wheel landing at the end. I actually prefer
it - better visibility throughout landing, less bouncing on the aluminum
gear, and believe it or not shorter landing length because not floating
waiting for speed to bleed down to 50mph.
Craig
N726SM
cjw77090
May 11, 2012, 11:07:28 PM5/11/12
to Cr...@craiggifford.com, Pete, Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
Thanks for comments, Craig. Some good flying.
According to Tom Adams, who had a Pitts S-1T converted to aluminum gear, all landings on spring gear are a great deal easier than are those on a standard gear with bungees.
The 3 point landing is a standard landing in all conditions, any kind of a gear. At H&R (La Porte, TX) they do not allow solo wheel landings, even on a Decathlon or Citabria, which may be a bit too safe. In a Pitts it is not too safe, it is O.K., and less people get into trouble.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
<texting disabled>
Sent from my iPad
According to Tom Adams, who had a Pitts S-1T converted to aluminum gear, all landings on spring gear are a great deal easier than are those on a standard gear with bungees.
The 3 point landing is a standard landing in all conditions, any kind of a gear. At H&R (La Porte, TX) they do not allow solo wheel landings, even on a Decathlon or Citabria, which may be a bit too safe. In a Pitts it is not too safe, it is O.K., and less people get into trouble.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
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Sent from my iPad
Christy Lichtenstein
May 11, 2012, 11:36:31 PM5/11/12
to christe...@googlegroups.com
I don't see a problem with a Pitts or Eagle driving around on less than 3 wheels...
Wheel Landing with broken tailwheel (at 2:11):
Pitts Wheelie:
More Pitts Wheelies:
Christen Eagle standing standing on 2 wheels (at 1:30)
Christen Eagle wheel landing (at 1:15):
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: cjw77090 <cjw7...@airmail.net>
To: Mark Barker <mba...@gci.net>
Cc: Christen-Eagle <christe...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, May 11, 2012 3:34:11 PM
Subject: Re: Christen-Eagle Comparing the Eagle to the S2C
Hi,
I have no Eagle experience, I have a lot of Pitts S-1T, some S-2B experience and I used to own a 185.
As a, pilot, CFI and an engineer with relevant experience I would expect the Eagle to perform on landings somewhere between S-1T and S-2B(C). In either of the above cases I recommend to do NO WHEEL LANDINGS, other than in exceptional conditions, preferably on the mild weather side, for practice only, AND only when the pilot is very confident and experienced in his plane.
On extremely light, fast landing planes with bungee gears like the above mentioned planes, the standard, recommended landings are three wheel landings with very decisive 'locking' of the stick all the way back immediately upon the landings. In crosswind conditions the stick control is upwind and as much downwind rudder as required to control weather-vaning.
The above is consistent with the teaching of those specialized flight schools I am aware of.
Regards
Christopher J Wajnikonis PE CEng
phone: +1(281)497-2299
fax: +1(281)661-1234
E-mail: cjw7...@airmail.net
<texting disabled>
Sent from my iPad
On May 11, 2012, at 10:53, Mark Barker <mba...@gci.net> wrote:
> I am working on a check out in a Pitts S2C, getting ready to fly my
> Eagle for the first time. I would love to hear comments about the
> differences in take offs, approaches, landing, and the roll out.
>
> After a life time of Alaska wheel landings in 185s, cubs, and Beavers,
> (and usually wheel landings) --- it is a lot of work to get this Pitts
> figured out, but it is slowly coming. If you have flown both I would
> love to hear your thoughts, or a description of you techniques in your
> Eagle.
> thanks
> Mark
>
David Wolf
May 12, 2012, 12:18:41 AM5/12/12
to christe...@googlegroups.com
I usually decide after touchdown. If the mains hit first I do a wheel landing. Otherwise a 3 point.
Dave
Cr...@craiggifford.com
May 12, 2012, 12:18:44 AM5/12/12
to Christy Lichtenstein, christe...@googlegroups.com
Gotta love 540 Eagles. His rolls faster than my stock ailerons.
Mine did ok at Nationals though.
I don't see a problem with a Pitts or Eagle driving around on less than 3
> wheels...
>
> Wheel Landing with broken tailwheel (at 2:11):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQkxlWPgG14
>
> Pitts Wheelie:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YB_4nzlIq8
>
> More Pitts Wheelies:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5UI6fHzr2g
>
> Christen Eagle standing standing on 2 wheels (at 1:30)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ES23vXQ6k
>
> Christen Eagle wheel landing (at 1:15):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQgslDlTLXY
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>> *From:* cjw77090 <cjw7...@airmail.net>
>> *To:* Mark Barker <mba...@gci.net>
>> *Cc:* Christen-Eagle <christe...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Fri, May 11, 2012 3:34:11 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Christen-Eagle Comparing the Eagle to the S2C
Mine did ok at Nationals though.
I don't see a problem with a Pitts or Eagle driving around on less than 3
> wheels...
>
> Wheel Landing with broken tailwheel (at 2:11):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQkxlWPgG14
>
> Pitts Wheelie:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YB_4nzlIq8
>
> More Pitts Wheelies:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5UI6fHzr2g
>
> Christen Eagle standing standing on 2 wheels (at 1:30)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ES23vXQ6k
>
> Christen Eagle wheel landing (at 1:15):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQgslDlTLXY
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>> *To:* Mark Barker <mba...@gci.net>
>> *Cc:* Christen-Eagle <christe...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Fri, May 11, 2012 3:34:11 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Christen-Eagle Comparing the Eagle to the S2C
mars...@yahoo.com
May 12, 2012, 10:19:31 AM5/12/12
to Cr...@craiggifford.com, cjw77090, Pete, Mark Barker, Christen-Eagle
I have to agee, I dont have an ENG degree, I'm not an instructor, just 600 hours in an S2B, about 50 in a C. I would not reccomend wheel landings till you are completely one with your plane. I three pointed for the first 200 hours. Definitely the way to start. But once you are competant you should not fear wheel landings.
One thing I noticed, with bungees and weight of big 540 it is easier to wheel land by touching one wheel slightly before the other. This eliminated the bounce and spring of the bungees.
Get safe and predictable with your 3pt landings first. And always respect and revere any tailwheel airplane on the ground from engine start to engine stop and you'll be ok.
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Cr...@craiggifford.com
To: cjw77090 <cjw7...@airmail.net>
Cc: Pete <pete-f...@kc.rr.com>, Mark Barker <mba...@gci.net>, Christen-Eagle <christe...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 02:15:07 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Christen-Eagle Comparing the Eagle to the S2C
> Sent from my iPad
Mark Barker
May 12, 2012, 6:58:47 PM5/12/12
to Christen-Eagle
Thanks to all of you for the great responses to my question. There
were also many more that were sent directly to my email.
Today finished the Pitts check out. I am by no means an expert, but it
really came together in the end. The IO540 on that thing was crazy
powerful, but fun.
I can't wait to do the Eagle and am glad I will be a llittle more
comfortable in it. It was fun to see how close some of these posts and
my emails were to what I was seeing in the Pitts.
I did my training with Micheal Blackstone at SkyTrills in Fullerton
California. He teaches the "bud style" so it was a great building
experience on my Bud flights of last year. If you are looking for
basic or acro training I highly recommend him. He also has a nice old
Waco he flys, and an Extra 300. His dad runs Air Combat USA out of the
same hanger. Check out his web site a www.skythrills.com
again thanks for all the great advice.
mark
were also many more that were sent directly to my email.
Today finished the Pitts check out. I am by no means an expert, but it
really came together in the end. The IO540 on that thing was crazy
powerful, but fun.
I can't wait to do the Eagle and am glad I will be a llittle more
comfortable in it. It was fun to see how close some of these posts and
my emails were to what I was seeing in the Pitts.
I did my training with Micheal Blackstone at SkyTrills in Fullerton
California. He teaches the "bud style" so it was a great building
experience on my Bud flights of last year. If you are looking for
basic or acro training I highly recommend him. He also has a nice old
Waco he flys, and an Extra 300. His dad runs Air Combat USA out of the
same hanger. Check out his web site a www.skythrills.com
again thanks for all the great advice.
mark
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