Clarification needed

[Ginger Corley]

I am just coming back from whelping pups and one of our once-every-few-months power outtages so I may be missing emails.  Can someone bring me up to speed please?  I show no emails to this list for a couple weeks then all of a sudden there is discussion about North Wind Riki being Nortth Wind Kodiac’s sire.  Has there been DNA confirmation of this?  Did Rick Strle allow this group access to NW Riki of Bear Creek’s (that is how we filled out his UKC registration papers and I know because I was there with him when he filled out the papers the same day we did Riki’s OFA x-rays and I mailed them into UKC for him to make sure they got there) DNA?  In the last two weeks has that DNA been compared to NW Kodiac’s and some of the other North Wind dogs?

 

I don’t want to come into the middle of a conversation and hopefully we are getting the full picture in this group and not having to jump around to multiple places.  If I’m missing emails, please let me know.  I got five on Thursday (yesterday) and prior to that had not received any since February 26^th.

 

I’d like to hear the “story” for lack of a better term of what has been discovered and if someone could tell me where I can find the information that I’ve been missing, I would appreciate it.  If there is discussion going on in personal emails, that’s fine as long as the parties will update this list frequently so we’re all on the same page.  I’m glad that progress is being made but this is a group project that involves a lot of people.  I hope I’m not the only one sitting at their computer going, “Huh, what did I miss?”  Since this is critical to the Foundation Sires of my bloodlines, I’m especially interested.  Specially how could Riki be the sire of Kodiac when Riki was only seven months old at the time they would have been bred?

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

-

 

 

 

 

 

[Karen Hinchy]

Hi Ginger, 

I don't think you are missing emails.  There is no discussion I'm aware of in the last few days except what has been on hte list.  Susan asked a question, and I replied.  To date, we haven't heard from anyone else.

The discussion first came up a couple of weeks ago, in an email Susan Bragg sent to the list on 2/21 titled:  

Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

It included an excerpt of an email she had from Rick Strle noting that Riki was over 6 months old when he was transferred from Ron to Rick, AND that Ron had "been trying" to breed Riki to Sheena (this is a bit of an inference, but a fair one - at a minimum you can conclude from the email that Ron told Rick he (Ron) was trying to breed Riki).  In addition, I shared a document from the COA archives from Rick Strle from Riki's SDR application that notes Riki was transferred to Rick Strle a couple of weeks-ish after Sheena would need to have been bred for her second litter.  Subsequent emails outlined the math and discussed the point that we had the incorrect birthday of Riki in CPP (he was in the second litter born on October instead of the first NW litter in February).  Per the CPP protocol, we reviewed the new information and it was agreed to change Riki's name (which previously was noted as Rikki per his UKC registration!) and his birthdate to match the birthdate on the transfer document.

You replied to Susan's original email on 21 Feb.

That exchange a few weeks ago led to the more recent one a couple of days ago about the potential for Riki to be the unknown sire of the second NW litter.  Which not only matches date-wise, and with the info Rick shared that Ron told him, but also with the genetic analysis that noted a startlingly similar dna in Tia and Nome, which would be expected in a potential mother/son pairing.  A full DNA analysis of the dogs has obviously not been completed in two weeks.  The UKC has been asked repeatedly in the past to do some analyses and been unable to comply with the requests, so I am not sure if/when they will do so with this most recent request.  Rick Strle has been asked repeatedly for Riki's DNA information, and/or to release the UKC to give it to us, and unfortunately there there's been nothing back. 

Let's remember the NW dogs are popular sires in Chinook land, and therefore are not any particular foundation dogs, they are in pretty much everyone's pedigrees.  Right now, the UKC pedigrees are pretty much the most incorrect version possible, with Tia and Nome being Open and Kiska, Hoonah, and Kodiac being noted as Cygnus/Sheena.  The AKC pedigrees are Cygnus/Sheena for all, and the actual DNA, well, there is nothing but dispute about that.  IF Riki WERE the sire of Tia and Nome (big if), it actually ties the historical information we have from Rick Strle and the transfer document with the historical DNA results.  Ties into a rather bizarrely tidy package, really.  

And finally, to the specific question on how could Riki be the sire of Kodiac when Riki was only 7 months old at the time they would have been bred.... are you asking how a dog that age could be fertile?  Because I thought it was common knowledge that studs can be fertile younger than 6 months.  In fact, the AKC notes on its responsible breeding page:  

On average, however, males become fertile after six months of age and reach full sexual maturity by 12 to 15 months. Healthy stud dogs may remain sexually active and fertile to old age. Adult males are able to mate at any time.

http://www.akc.org/dog-breeders/responsible-breeding/

Just a couple of Chinook examples from the CPP data- Good News Coco's first litter was born when he was 10 months old (bred at 8ish), and Aspencreek's Kobi's first litter was born when he was 9 months old (bred at 7 months).  

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Karen Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

[Susan E Bragg]

Thanks for replying, Karen.  Soon as I feed my living here; I need to read this too, aye.  best, Susan

---

From: Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: Clarification needed

[Susan E Bragg]

"Ties into a rather bizarrely tidy package, really."

Well put, Karen H, THANKS.  Ties in too well to ignore further; As further compared to continued documentation(s) (1996-2016) & real DNA (1995-2000), etc.

Which then further ties in to Kodiac again/finally.  So if we peg a date of transfer to Joyce on Kodiac, I intend to hit the files again here, to make any and every further conceivable vetting to Karen H & ALL on whether or not we are beyond validating full parentage on him(Kodiac). 

So far; I'm not personally ready to give up just yet then.  Especially if Ginger can indeed repeg date we need next.  Thanks, Susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Clarification needed

[Susan E Bragg]

Meanwhile; my own dbase Peds on NW dogs remain sitting as--

NW Hoonah, Kiska, Riki (SW Cygnus x G Sheena) as CPP Validated
NW Kodiac (SW Cygnus x OPEN)
NW Nome, Tia (NW Riki or Rikki [of Bear Creek] x G Sheena)

(I can handle what the added OPEN behind Kodiac does to the also litter COIs, aye.  For I need to work with the more in fact peds & percent blood(s) now, given degrees inbreedings down from NW dogs themselves still within 4Gen peds, etc.  Thanks.) 
best, Susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Clarification needed

[Ginger Corley]

So there is still no DNA proof that Riki has sired any litters beyond the one he sired for Rick, which produced rick’s dog Jake and Tracy Reinmiller / Joyce Robertson’s Brandy and the second that he sired for me.  According to Rick these are the only two litters he ever sired.  It sounds to me like the theory that Riki sired Kodiac is simply a theory until we can get ahold of his DNA.

 

FYI, after many years of friendship with Rick, all of it totally dog based, his wife insisted that I never contact them again, that my friendship with him was “ruining their marriage” (which was crazy since we only talked about every six months at the most and we only met in person twice in all the years we knew each other).  Sylvia HATED Rick’s dogs and wanted him to get rid of all of them but Rick wanted to keep enough for a small team.  I don’t think Rick ever knew that when I called him one day, Sylvia got on the phone and literally screamed all this at me.  I never called or wrote him again.  I wasn’t going to be the scapegoat in anyone’s divorce.  Sylvia had been exceptionally kind to me when I had stayed overnight with them when I delivered Jenna back to them so I never understood her turning into witchy-poo.  Life is too short to take crap from a woman I barely knew who was obviously having some issues with her husband.

 

He and I were good friends for many years and I know some things that might induce him to release Riki’s DNA.  Would it take anything beyond a letter that he signs and forwards to UKC?  I’m all in favor of getting this resolved and if you’d like, I’m willing to email him and personally ask him to do so.  Let me know.  Getting Rick to do any paperwork is like pulling teeth which is why I did Riki’s OFA nd UKC registration paperwork then just had Rick sign it when he came to pick up his stud fee puppy.  I handled all the paperwork on his Chinooks after that.  It was just easier that way.  Perhaps that’s part of what pissed off Sylvia.

 

Let me know if you want my help to get it.  I would need his current email address.

[Karen Hinchy]

Hi Ginger, 

No, there is no DNA proof that Riki is the sire of the second North Wind litter.  .  

 

  ....one he sired for Rick, which produced rick’s dog Jake and Tracy Reinmiller / Joyce Robertson’s Brandy and the second that he sired for me.  According to Rick these are the only two litters he ever sired. 

This is inaccurate.  According to Rick, Ron was actively trying to breed Riki prior to Rick taking ownership.  Please see Susan's email from Rick Strle with his commentary on Riki's age and Ron's breeding attempts.  Perhaps Rick said the litter where Riki sired Jake and Brandy, and the litter with Holly were the only two litters Riki sired while Rick owned him?  But Rick CLEARLY states that Ron was attempting to breed Riki prior Rick to taking ownership.  

 

It sounds to me like the theory that Riki sired Kodiac is simply a theory until we can get ahold of his DNA.

Yes, Riki being a sire of the second North Wind litter it is a theory, just like ALL pedigree possibilities for that litter are theories at this point.  But it has documentation to back it up - including the transfer document and Rick's statement that Ron was breeding Riki.  This is, in fact a better documented history of the second North Wind litter than what we have now, which led to the decision to provide Cygnus /Sheena pedigrees to both North Wind litters.  And this theory actually supports what DNA evidence we DO have from Kiska, Hoonah, Tia and Nome.  

So, in fact there is a case to be made it is a better theory than that which is behind the current pedigrees.

As a side note, the theory does not relate to Riki being the sire of Kodiac.  As far as I know, Kodiac was purported to be in the first North Wind litter, which would make Riki his full sibling.  Riki's DNA, if we ever get it, could help corroborate that. 

[Susan E Bragg]

And you are correct the Posits here to date remain a more solid case than those which support continued UKC peds as they stand.  Well said, Karen H.  Best, susan

--

[Ginger Corley]

The whelping box necessitates moving around all the furniture in my office so the files I need access to are ones I can’t get to right now.  So you will have to be patient until the irish Revolutionaries are out of the nursery / office before I can get into my file cabinet and get to that file.  My niece is bugging me for a piece of human family history that is located in the same file cabinet.  Until then, you will have to take my word for it that Joyce had custody of North Wind Kodiac in 1987 / 1988 when she had her first litter and I got my first Chinook from Harry.  He was NOT at Northdown when I was there summer of 1988.

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

 

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:20 PM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Clarification needed

 

Especially if Ginger can indeed repeg date we need next.  Thanks, Susan

.

[Susan E Bragg]

No rush, Ginger. Zoogen has already proven the NW pedigrees themselves remained faulty (since 1996). So the dog which Harry later sold to Joyce had already come to him from RON as Undocumented even, so far as I'm aware. No one has countered me, here or privately. And your docs will also not prove the 1986 NW Kodiac's origin(s), if it's just another later COA Litter record & adendum, etc. I have already said here how I too have some 1988/89 CCOA/COA litter records where Kodiac was set within the NW litter record(s), aye. But right from Summer 1986, seems the real NW to ND transfers docs themselves never surfaced/resurfaced on Kodiac.

So whatever happened in also 1987/88 will not impact these NW pedigrees now, frankly. Again; We have now exhausted ALL attempts to recover also REAL NW generated pedigree(S) on NW Kodiac, from April of 1986 on (when Harry was said to have rec'd Hoon & the 3 white Males together, at 8wks old).

So my Second of today on Karen H's posit(s) remains good to go. Because it does indeed match what Zoogen later scientifically affirmed for Kodiac. Waiting is just a mis-Admin still then, and we've already waited too long (since 1996) on his ped with NO further useful documentation(s). Joyce herself is gone already 3.5yrs. So time to set this and the other NW peds to rights. Best, Susan

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 3/28/16, Ginger Corley <Gin...@hughes.net> wrote:

Subject: RE: Clarification needed
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, March 28, 2016, 4:49 PM

#yiv4044413879
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#yiv4044413879 The whelping box necessitates

moving around all the furniture in my office so the files I
need access to are ones I can’t get to right now.  So you
will have to be patient until the irish Revolutionaries are
out of the nursery / office before I can get into my file
cabinet and get to that file.  My niece is bugging me for a
piece of human family history that is located in the same
file cabinet.  Until then, you will have to take my word
for it that Joyce had custody of North Wind Kodiac in 1987 /
1988 when she had her first litter and I got my first
Chinook from Harry.  He was NOT at Northdown when I was

there summer of 1988.  Ginger CorleyRain Mountain Chinooksestablished 1988www.rainmountain.net  From:

chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:20 PM
To:
chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Clarification
needed  Especially if
Ginger can indeed repeg date we need next.  Thanks,
Susan.