Fwd: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed

[Susan E Bragg]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Susan E Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>
Date: Mar 11, 2016 5:33 PM
Subject: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed
To: kccroar <kcc...@gmail.com>
Cc:

It may be fair to wonder if UKC seeks no such proof(s), since this prior investigation too was closed prematurely, aye.  They make no secret how intent they are to close an investigation for 'good', hell or high water(s), understood.

And I do not have permission for you to share Strle's email outside Karen H and COA Registrar, thanks.

So far as I'm aware; There is NO theory Riki also sired Kodiac.  

But Strle did affirm I was correct Riki may have been involved in the second litter which produced Nome & Tia, which Karen H has again outlined here.

And if Ginger can find her documented proofs on Kodiac date of transfer, then we'll also know how to proceed further with him, beyond reOpening his dam, aye.  best, susan

On Mar 11, 2016 5:17 PM, Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ginger, 

No, there is no DNA proof that Riki is the sire of the second North Wind litter.  .  

 

  ....one he sired for Rick, which produced rick’s dog Jake and Tracy Reinmiller / Joyce Robertson’s Brandy and the second that he sired for me.  According to Rick these are the only two litters he ever sired. 

This is inaccurate.  According to Rick, Ron was actively trying to breed Riki prior to Rick taking ownership.  Please see Susan's email from Rick Strle with his commentary on Riki's age and Ron's breeding attempts.  Perhaps Rick said the litter where Riki sired Jake and Brandy, and the litter with Holly were the only two litters Riki sired while Rick owned him?  But Rick CLEARLY states that Ron was attempting to breed Riki prior Rick to taking ownership.  

 

It sounds to me like the theory that Riki sired Kodiac is simply a theory until we can get ahold of his DNA.

Yes, Riki being a sire of the second North Wind litter it is a theory, just like ALL pedigree possibilities for that litter are theories at this point.  But it has documentation to back it up - including the transfer document and Rick's statement that Ron was breeding Riki.  This is, in fact a better documented history of the second North Wind litter than what we have now, which led to the decision to provide Cygnus /Sheena pedigrees to both North Wind litters.  And this theory actually supports what DNA evidence we DO have from Kiska, Hoonah, Tia and Nome.  

So, in fact there is a case to be made it is a better theory than that which is behind the current pedigrees.

As a side note, the theory does not relate to Riki being the sire of Kodiac.  As far as I know, Kodiac was purported to be in the first North Wind litter, which would make Riki his full sibling.  Riki's DNA, if we ever get it, could help corroborate that. 

--

Karen Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

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[Susan E Bragg]

re: NW Kodiac
Looks to me like Joyce UKC registered him first, sometime on or before 17 Nov 1992, at same time she reg'd her offspring of him and Ayla too, etc.  (Then I think Hoonah and Kiska were UKC reg'd by Mar 1994, if memory serves.  I think it may have been Martha K which then reg'd Nome & Tia, in also 1994 or thereabouts.) 

Then during/after the NW dna investigations; Riki came in finally too, via the new SDR program Joyce helped to usher in. Again; I have no clue why his DNA profile was not then further compared to his Dam of record within UKC DNA dbank at least.  I too have no idea who got Riki's Name and DOB incorrect during same SDR process, etc.  (For sure, an opportunity missed by both UKC & COA then, but I digress.)

Point today remaining; Joyce likely did own Kodiac prior to Nov 1992, at least.  Because I do recall Harry advising us he'd refused to sign ANY UKC reg forms which Joyce completed for him early on, sometime either side of 1990, if memory serves.  He told me instead he threw those forms in his trash; After lecturing Joyce on how NON pure the breed both DID remain as well as NEEDED to remain then, vs whole hog UKC pb show breed so soon, etc. 

But 1992 remains still a far cry from 1987/88, aye.  Why again, we need the real timeline again on Kodiac, between ND and Hurricane.  IF we can find it too finally.  (BIG if, understood.)  best, susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 7:40 PM
Subject: Fwd: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed

[Susan E Bragg]

re: Nome & Tia UKC Peds

Ya, they were also UKC Reg'd prior to June 1994, as it was on 13 June 1994 when Joyce/COA Registrar contested those same Registrations (which I believe Martha K had earlier effected). 

North Wind Nome  UKC# P188-273
North Wind Tia  UKC# P188-273A

best, susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed

[Susan E Bragg]

Just another NOTE to Add this NW discourse; Since I ran across this date here too... 

"UKC Litter Registrations began December 1993"

best, Susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 10:38 AM

[Susan E Bragg]

Further Re: NW Kodiac ownerships/transfers dates/docs

I DID just find again the old fax from Joyce to Marra W on 28 June 1995; Which affirmed she(Joyce) owned (6) Chinooks then, just (2) Males; NW Kodiac and his son H MacKenzie.  Data she share on Kodiac this missive as follows--

North Wind Kodiac  M   UKC# P177-983   COA# 86-0102   DOB  28 FEB 1986


So even though this remains one of my earliest Documented ownership docs of Joyce's on Kodiac; It's an ever father cry from 1987/88 than 1993 is, admittedly.  So I keep digging and sharing, aye.  best, susan
 

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 1:02 PM

[Susan E Bragg]

Part of the reason(s) I'm also determined/persevering re also Kodiac origins/Ped here; Is because of how Joyce did also assign COA Xbred #s to all the dogs she documented then as also known crosses, circa June 1995.  NOT only the F1s sired by Top Gun then.  Point is; If I also add all those early COA registration #s on the also Kai-Sai cbs and others in to my dbase too finally; It too we become again a closer picture to 1987 also within all COA registrations & possibilities on sires/dams within corrected NW peds finally.  Maybe sounds as clear as Mud to all non researchers yet then, but it's enough to outline why I too have not given up hope on sourcing NW Kodiac.  tx, susan 

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 3:46 PM

[Susan E Bragg]

For instance; I DID just also recompare real DNA ID profiles on SW Chilkoot and NW Kodiac.  There are a full 4 real Exclusions between those 2, in 10 full & shared systems, when analyzing Chilkoot as Kodiac's potential sire this way.  So fair to say NW Kodiac was not an also mis-ID'd Backroads F1 sired by Chilkoot.  This may not be news, understood.  However,  I will keep re-comparing, with every also new document find, etc. 

For it DOES also AID to KNOW WHICH dogs both REMAIN potential Sire(s), as well as which were DNA compared/Excluded Sire(s) of others with OPEN sires.  (As we Noted within also F Mac and ND Nugget CPP records too, etc.  It never hurts to keep a short list then, as we go.)

So, re: NW Kodiac Sire
It seems to me again today; We can begin by Excluding SW Chilkoot.   

best, Susan

---

From: Susan E Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 4:37 PM

[Susan E Bragg]

"So, re: NW Kodiac Sire
It seems to me again today; We can begin by Excluding SW Chilkoot."

I think we can safely ADD Excluding (as potential sire(s) of NW Kodiac):

T Yukon Jack (based upon L10 Reconstruct on Jack from VARIANT Pro set of systems).
B Tekoa (based upon 2 systems exclusions [L9, L10] on a full 11 systems shared)
NW Kiska (based upon 1 system exclusions at L1 on a full 10 systems shared)

AND, for THOSE who feel Joyce may indeed NOT have taken POSSESSION on her NW Kodiac (same or variant stud she bred to in 1987 even) until AFTER Harry's subsequent RETURN from ALASKA; It does look like we CANNOT EXCLUDE: NW Nome himself as possible sire of NW Kodiac, odd but true.

THAT said; Kodiac was clearly NOT out of V Niki's Alaska LITTER then, NOR ND Timba's.  For I just reran VIPs on those 2 litter records & real DNA those dogs (Nome x Niki; Nome x Timba); And it's pretty clear Kodiac was not out of either of those Dams (Niki or Timba). 

Which DOES yet leave the question- Was he out of the 3rd Alaska litter then-  Y Cassie x Nome ? 

I don't know.  ALL I know still is; How Harry DID feel Nome too was part of the Siring(s) then in APR 1989 AK litters.  (Nome was clearly NOT Nugget's sire, aye.  However, doesn't mean he wasn't also others sire's then, as Gray-Terriault DID admit they hauled upwards to 20 PUPS also back home to PGK from Alaska then, of which Nugget was simply ONE of!).

So first; We'd have to also prove Joyce would not have know the difference between a yearling cream stud in 1987, and another yearling cream stud in 1990 or later (a paternal nephew of the one in 1987!).  Which may or may not be a stretch; AFTER we do find please, better TRANSFER docs on Kodiac (grin ;).  For this exercise too does OUTLINE further need for this Date on Joyce's Kodiac DNA profile from 1995/6.

Meanwhile; I'm running ALL further possible combinations then between Kodiac and Nome x ?(available possible dam's real DNA profiles from ND kennels, from roughly 1986 thru 1993).  I'll shout if I come up with a 'hit'.  Because hellifIknow what Ron or Harry or Joyce really did then or when.  But I remain also determined to discover MORE of it again, this year.  IF we can, aye.  best, susan

[Susan E Bragg]

Honestly; I still think we're looking at an either North Star or Yokayo missing link on NW Kodiac 1995 profile, aye.  Can't yet prove it further either.  But I have emailed Intervale to ask her to recomb her notes from her prior Pete A interview, and see if he even MENTIONED then his also entire CB litter from 1986.  best, susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 3:13 PM

[Susan E Bragg]

OK, so because it remains conspicuously quiet on the also too long (since 1996) pending Genomic Admins here these issues;

I'm now adding a counter or parallel POSIT here we MOVE to REOPEN ALL NW dogs PEDIGREES with an also FROZEN applied COI of 50% on all. 

(Because Nome and Tia peds are indeed already running at 47% COI, and we know the others too remain as likely as NOT on average also genetic sibs, within full ancestry back to CHINOOK, at least, since ICB 2013/14 Analyses, etc.  Including for NW Kodiac, as we CANNOT exclude one or more Purebred CHINOOKS as having been his also correct sire, regardless of his still Missing Dam.  Which further means all his F3 descendants likely remain sufficiently homozygous & inbred on also PG Riki 1968/.../CHINOOK again, etc.). 

So even if the above Posit remains too 'lay' and not yet 'pro' enough in 2016; Let's VOTE on it; Or on PRIOR posits here; UP and/or DOWN soon, eh? 

Otherwise; What are we waiting for?  Are we going to Admin this genome still, or just talk about it?  Because we've already proven dog shows and celebrations do not for Admin(s) make.  Let's step UP to our PLATE again finally, these issues, 20yrs running.  Thanks, Susan

---

From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:08 PM

[Marleen Mandt]

Susan I’ve read this 3x’s I don’t know what your saying.  Can you break your email down to it’s simplest form without abbreviations or acronyms so I can understand the problem.  Thank you

Marlene

[Susan E Bragg]

Yes.  I now propose we effected necessary Re-validation(s) on ALL North Wind kennels dogs herein this Project dbase to--

OPEN (Sire) x OPEN (Dam) (with FIXED coefficients of Inbreeding Set to 50% on ALL). 

UNLESS others want to slow down, read, study, & weigh in on Karen H and/or my prior posits this discourse soon.  Thanks, Susan

P.S.  Because their also appears NO SOLID TRANSFERS or remaining anecdotal (oral or documented) evidences still prior to 1988/89 which in fact prove the 3 white pups originally sent from North Wind to Northdown in April 1986 or thereabouts were then also pedigreed North Wind pups.  ONLY evidences I'm yet aware of in 2016; Are the CCOA then COA early litter records on these also pups named therein.  But I too have NOTHING still by the way(s) of REAL 1986 transfers docs on those 3 Males, one of which was later reported to have been/remained Joyce's North Wind Kodiac.  I HAVE seen the REAL transfer docs on Hoonah and Kiska, yes.  As well as on Nome and Tia, yes.  And we all have finally seen the REAL transfer doc on Riki here this past month, thankfully.  Meanwhile; those 3 white Males which came east to ND with Hoonah, including Kodiac, were not then papered, so FAR as I can tell.  NOT before 1988/89.  Would LOVE it if others here could also finally prove me wrong.  But doing nothing for a 21st year is also not the way to really Admin-ing these also continued REAL population issues.  Thanks, seb

---

From: Marleen Mandt <mkm...@comcast.net>
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed

[Pawed]

I'm having a hard time understanding, too.

Britain

[Susan E Bragg]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Susan E Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>

Date: Mar 25, 2016 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed
To: Pawed <pa...@britainhill.com>
Cc:

It's OK All,
NW Kodiac was not out of G Sheena.  Although the others were.  This remains the short story since 1996. 

But too many would rather feign deer in headlights 20yrs on than dig further in to make a simple set of corrections as previously outlined with clarity(ies) even within correct confines this CPP. 

It's OK.  I've already set some of my own DNA docs back in to further motions again today these issues.  As always; Will report back any positive results therefrom.  For when the humans will not be budged, this doesn't mean I too need sit idle.  If I'd done that since also 1996, I'd still be thinking some of my cbs were pbs and pbs were cbs, agreed!  We've come a LONG WAY BABY, to get where we got to today!  So once again decided to trust my gut further again today.  As the Xtians remind; When a problem is too big; Give it over to (G)od, and get out of the way.  So that's what I too have done yet again in 2016.  Best, Susan

[Karen Hinchy]

Well, I for one think opening the pedigrees and fixing COI at 50% (if indeed there is a way to do that- off the top of my head I don't know how) is a bad idea.  The current CPP pedigrees match the AKC ones.  Even in the most inbred scenario imagined for some of them, COI isn't 50%.  Far better to reflect the best current thinking as to the actual heritage of these dogs with remains Cygnus x Sheena for Kiska and Hoonah, Sheena (and perhaps sired by NW Riki) for Tia and Nome, and probably a full open for Kodiac.  He's the one I have the least faith in any documented pedigree.  

[Susan E Bragg]

BA has a mechanism, at least, for assigning/fixing COI on the also Open founders, if memory serves. Most dbase software worth is salt does. I too agree this is 'bad' choice, however; Beyond it being 'better' than doing nothing here forward these pedigrees. So thanks for your further reply here today.

I now SECOND your thoughts then, frankly. As I too have lost further faith in Kodiac even being sired by Cygnus. Although I think he may have remained at least an F1 Chinook, yes.

No one seemed to like my idea of assigning Boney as his sire, however, as it's TRUE how beyond COA docs & kitchen table dna analyses based upon an also Boney RECONSTRUCT; I can't yet prove it! It does remain a REAL posit, however dead ended, yes.

So I have pretty much exhausted my researches again here, for now, yes. And now SECOND your thoughts we Update/Re-Validate these peds on the NW dogs as such--

Hoonah, Kiska, Riki = Cygnus x Sheena

Nome, Tia = Riki x Sheena

Kodiac = Open x Open

And we can remove the other 2 'white' brothers of Kodiac from the 28 FEB 1986 NW litter to also Open x Open, by me. That could make some sense too, I guess. THINK that was Koyuk and either Kenai or the Unnamed Male? But if we keep all 3 of those wholly OPEN now, it will match the also paper and image trails at least to where they still 'dead end' then in 1986 between NW and ND/PGK, aye.

We've done our jobs well, agreed. I'll indeed feel like we can rest better again if we can Validate the above. Thanks.
best, susan

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/28/16, Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: NW Peds was Re: Clarification needed

To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, March 28, 2016, 10:24 AM

From:
'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March
15, 2016 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: NW
Peds was Re: Clarification needed


Honestly; I still think
we're looking at an either North Star or Yokayo missing
link on NW Kodiac 1995 profile, aye.  Can't yet prove
it further either.  But I have emailed Intervale to ask her
to recomb her notes from her prior Pete A interview, and see
if he even MENTIONED then his also entire CB litter from
1986.  best, susan

From: Susan E
Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14,
2016 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: NW
Peds was Re: Clarification needed


Part of the
reason(s) I'm also determined/persevering re also Kodiac
origins/Ped here; Is because of how Joyce did also assign
COA Xbred #s to all the dogs she documented then as also
known crosses, circa June 1995.  NOT only the F1s sired by
Top Gun then.  Point is; If I also add all those early COA
registration #s on the also Kai-Sai cbs and others in to my
dbase too finally; It too we become again a closer picture
to 1987 also within all COA registrations &
possibilities on sires/dams within corrected NW peds
finally.  Maybe sounds as clear as Mud to all non
researchers yet then, but it's enough to outline why I
too have not given up hope on sourcing NW Kodiac.  tx,
susan 

From:
'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14,
2016 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: NW
Peds was Re: Clarification needed


Further Re: NW Kodiac
ownerships/transfers dates/docs

I DID just find again the old fax
from Joyce to Marra W on 28 June 1995; Which affirmed
she(Joyce) owned (6) Chinooks then, just (2) Males; NW
Kodiac and his son H MacKenzie.  Data she share on Kodiac
this missive as follows--
North Wind Kodiac  M   UKC# P177-983   COA#
86-0102   DOB  28 FEB 1986


So even though this remains
one of my earliest Documented ownership docs of Joyce's
on Kodiac; It's an ever father cry from 1987/88 than
1993 is, admittedly.  So I keep digging and sharing, aye. 
best, susan
 

From:
'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 14,
2016 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: NW
Peds was Re: Clarification needed


Just another NOTE to Add this NW
discourse; Since I ran across this date here too... 

"UKC Litter
Registrations began December 1993"

best,
Susan

From:
'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, March 13,
2016 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Fwd: NW
Peds was Re: Clarification needed


re: Nome
& Tia UKC Peds

Ya, they
were also UKC Reg'd prior to June 1994, as it was on 13
June 1994 when Joyce/COA Registrar contested those same
Registrations (which I believe Martha K had earlier
effected). 

North Wind
Nome  UKC# P188-273
North Wind Tia  UKC#
P188-273A

best,
susan