North Wind Pedigrees - new theory? was Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

[Karen Hinchy]

Thanks for sharing this Susan, as I think your recent correspondence with Rick Strle (and I can verify I have seen the email in its entirety from Rick) is absolutely critical and transformative in our assessment of the NW pedigrees. 

In addition to this, I have reviewed some info from the COA Registrar's file for North Wind Riki's UKC SDR application.  In there is signed Certificate of Transfer for Riki, signed by Ron McJunkin (breeder).  The certificate notes Riki's birthdate (2/28/86) and date of transfer to Rick Strle (8/12/86).  This certificate would have gone from Ron to Rick Strle to the COA - neither it nor Riki have been implicated in the multiple transfers that some of the other North Wind dogs experienced.  This transfer is, as far as I know, an unimpeachable resource, particularly when it is supported by the recent email from Rick to Susan.

So, as we have every reason to believe the Certificate of Transfer there are a couple of implications.

1) we have incorrectly noted Riki's birthdate as 10/04/86 in CPP - this should be changed to the earlier litter (2/28/86) AND 

2) Riki was a young intact male with Ron McJunkin when Georgianna's Sheena was bred for her second litter.  Might he be the mystery sire of NW Tia and Nome?

This latter bit is simple math- Sheena's second litter was born on October 4th.  Breeding would have been 63 days prior to that, give or take a day or two.  The breeding window for Sheena would have been 7/30-8/4 ish.  Per Ron and Rick's own documents Riki was with Ron during this time, and (suspiciously?) not transferred to Rick until a week or so later (8/12).  

When you also remember that the genetics company that did the analysis on the NW dogs noted that Tia and Nome were remarkably homozygous, which you would expect in a mother/son mating, you start to see a reasonable theory emerging here.  That Riki is the sire of the second NW litter, which would match the DNA results for the dogs we have (Tia, Nome, Kiska, Hoonah, Sheena).

*First note- I will ask the COA Board for permission to share publicly Riki's transfer doc as it is critical to this discussion*

Does anyone have any information that would either impeach the documentation from Rick/Ron, or dispute the theory?

....

Also; long stories short; if it's also TRUE your Riki was 6mos old or so when Ron placed him with you; Then turns out he COULD be the also mystery/missing SIRE of the second North Wind litter, born Oct 1986, including Nome and Tia (which many of my dogs remain also descended from).  Since 1996-2000 DNA ID/pedigree results affirmed the NW dogs were NOT ALL full siblings, in short!   This is true – Ron mentioned he was trying.

Riki also sired 1 liter in his elder years , in California ; I will look for that info as well.

....

--

Karen Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

[Susan E Bragg]

And thank you, Karen.  I have no further info to refute Richard's or your own below statements, aye. 

For as many here may also recall; The early ND-PGK/CCOA/CWW Litter Record on NW Litters (in Harry's own handwriting) did list/Named Riki clearly within first (28 FEB 1986) Litter/whelps, aye.  I still have that Registry Record here too, which I already revisited today before deciding to Post Richard's recent comments here, aye.  I have another old CCOA litter record this litter which also had Riki therein, with someone's seeming later confusion as if his and Kiska's reg no(s) had been switched.  But impossible to note who made that second record, there were so many hands on also early CCOA records.  Which is why I too yet value most the Original ND Registry in Harry's hand.  It's a cleaner doc still than many in interim(s) these NW dogs.

So I must agree the SOURCE docs do yet hang together, so far as I can yet tell. 

Otherwise; I too remain open/interested in what else others can share here, to either corroborate or refute. 
Thanks again,  Susan

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From: Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 2:18 PM
Subject: North Wind Pedigrees - new theory? was Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

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[Susan E Bragg]

A(s) to Q(s) in G's post just now you can also find by reviewing my email(s) with Strle, Karen H, tx.  Susan

[Susan E Bragg]

Yes, we have now proven how the Beta 1996 COA SDR program too remained not without it's flaws.  However; because that too is no 'crime' in 2016 finally; BEAUTY today remains--
our NEXT STEP here is again clear.  That is-

We Revalidate DOB on NW Rik(k)i as 28 FEB 1986, since Strle/McJunkin/CCOA original reg & transfer DOC do match Strle's continued statements of source fact(s) on this/that DOB.  ALL of which Docs COA has remained in possession of since acceptance of the also CWW/CCOA source docs as combined with COA SDR docs, aye.  Which is exactly WHY I went out again to gain Strle's verbal corroboration(s), which we have now received on this/that much, and more, aye. 

So I now SECOND Karen H's posit we Revalidate DOB on NW Rik(k)i.  While at same time recollating/aligning whatever Rikis' CPP Name is too with continued UKC Name of Record on him, please, thanks.  (I forget if UKC added the second 'k' [I think they did?], and believe there remains no 'of Bear Creek' on also UKC reg name?  Anyway; COA Registrar could recheck that, & I will recheck all my UKC foundations NAMES on Riki again here this hour, share here, aye. 

best, susan

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From: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
To: 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: North Wind Pedigrees - new theory? was Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

[Susan E Bragg]

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Susan E Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>
To: Susan E Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: North Wind Pedigrees - new theory? was Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

re: NW Rik(k)i NAMING(s) history

After quick review of earliest Source Docs my archives here; Looks to me like this is the Studbooks Name change history--

North Wind Riki  CCOA (Katy/Harry GRAY Registry) Reg No 86-106
North Wind Riki COA (Joyce MALEY COA Register) Reg No C86-0503
North Wind Rikki COA/UKC (SDR) No P228-733 DNA-P

So I propose we UPDATE also CPP NAME to match UKC Name of Record, simultaneous to corrected/revised DOB to 28 FEB 1986. 

And/or if the AKC Record on Rikki includes an also 'of Bear Creek', we can add it within CPP too.  (For I have NOT done a NAME search within AKC studbook today, no time to slow down to do it this hour yet either, etc.).  But if not, I propose we 'fall back' with CPP Name record to straight UKC Name of Record in 2016. 

For it will be made clearer as we continue thru the also DOCS and DNA vettings/Validatings this Conversation now, I think.  Fact is-  This remains one and same North Wind Rikki DOB 28 FEB 1986 now, aye.

Unless someone wants to petition UKC to also revise the name to remove the second 'k'.  But seems to me that's 'overkill', unless UKC chooses.  My thoughts as we progress then.
Thanks, Susan

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From: Susan E Bragg <ross...@yahoo.com>
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 10:31 AM

Subject: Re: North Wind Pedigrees - new theory? was Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

[Karen Hinchy]

I agree at a minimum we should change Riki's birthdate to match the pedigree provided by his breeder to his new owner.  Not to mention the date of transfer to Rick Strle is actually before the current DOB we have for Riki.  

I'm hopeful no one has issues with changing the DOB?

On name - I'm mindful that Rick Strle referred to the dog as Riki (one 'k').  The AKC name is North Wind Riki.  I believe the UKC name has two 'k's, but I think that is incorrect.  I would propose we use North Wind Riki (of Bear Creek) as the CPP name.  We have several dogs that have callnames, etc in parentheses after their registered name.  I'm less concerned about what AKC and UKC have, and more concerned about what the dog's owner feels his name was!!

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[Leslie Donais]

I agree to use one ‘K’ in his name and to use the February birthdate.

Leslie Donais
Granite Hill Chinooks

www.granitehillchinooks.net

[Susan E Bragg]

Ditto, me too now, since AKC Record carried the also original Name spelling, to match NW/Strle's, etc.  I'll rest further then with Karen H's reasoning(s) below to keep CPP one 'k' as well as suffix in parens.  And I still agree need to Update DOB to February 1986 NW litter dob, exactly.  Thanks all, Susan

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From: Leslie Donais <granitehi...@comcast.net>
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 12:43 PM

[Karen Schiller]

So I now SECOND Karen H's posit we Revalidate DOB on NW Rik(k)i.  While at same time recollating/aligning whatever Rikis' CPP Name is too with continued UKC Name of Record on him, please, thanks.  (I forget if UKC added the second 'k' [I think they did?], and believe there remains no 'of Bear Creek' on also UKC reg name?  Anyway; COA Registrar could recheck that, & I will recheck all my UKC foundations NAMES on Riki again here this hour, share here, aye.

Susan, for what it's worth, our boy Hurricane Finnegan's pedigree has the dog in question listed as North Wind Rikki.

Karen Schiller

[Susan E Bragg]

Thanks, Karen S; Understood the UKC record carries the second 'k'.  But AKC Record does not.  And neither did NW or Strle or CCOA Records, that I'm aware.  So Karen H advises we stick with the original North Wind Riki within CPP dbase.  I'm cool with that since it at least matches one of the 2 major U.S. Studbook Registers (which matches the Source docs).  All as clear as MUD, I'm sure, but really, seems UKC record added the 'k' either by COA or their own error(s) during SDR process in 1996 or thereabouts. 

Rest assured, however; I believe we made studied sure the UKC DNA Form Provided Strle does still carry the UKC Reg name: North Wind Rikki 

For as tired as I am in 2016; I do still try to always match studbook requests with the real corresponding reg name that Register, so as not to further confuse them as well.  No muss no fuss then, or so that's the hope (grin :). 

But I'm still listening close here too; So please say more if you have further concerns for any variance(s) as we go.  I'm just feeling easy, so long as we also get the dobs, peds, & relationships correct finally.  I'm truly COOL as long as we match UKC or AKC Record.  So this can be also COA's 'call' for all of me, if you need to have further consult with the also SDR Record, etc.    best, susan