New Information: Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees

[Karen Hinchy]

Hi all, 

It's probably time I provided an update on some interesting facts that have come to light about Chinook genetic heritage and what it means for our pedigrees.  

The Embark genetic panel test that some have been "trying out" for fun mostly, also traces Maternal and Paternal heritage by tracking some specific genes that are only inherited through the direct sire and dam line.  For more information, you can scroll down to "Where your dog's ancestors came from"  https://embarkvet.com/ancestry.

What we know now:

• Our pedigrees are not correct, likely in the areas of controversy from the 80s/early 90s that have been drama in the community for decades.  
  
• North Wind Nome and North Wind Kodiac do not have the same sire, supporting DNA evidence on paternal lineage from years ago.
• Both North Wind Nome and North Wind Kodiac do not descend from the same sire line as Benjamin's Kuska/Winterset Tonka Treadwell/WoodsRunner Duncan

From the current pedigrees we have agreed to, Chinooks *should* have a single sireline- all males descend from Perry Greene Riki 1968's sireline.  The other males in the famous "four dog bottleneck", Perry Greene Raluk 1970 and Perry Greene Eric 1968 are only represented in the modern dogs via female descendants, so their sireline contribution, if different from Riki's, is lost.  

Also from the current pedigrees, most Chinooks should have a single damline, from Perry Greene Tatla 1970.  She was the only female to move foward to today in that four dog bottleneck.  We know the ones that could have a variant damline as female descendants of known non-Chinooks - there are only two dogs that are still in the breeding population and they are female damline descendants of Glendon's Sweetie.  The results we  have from Embark show all Chinooks have common damline haplogroup and haplotype - while this doesn't define that the descend from the same dog, it is likely our pedigrees are correct and they do.

Embark, however, has thus far found three different sirelines in Chinooks.  When I queried thema bout this, they note "They did see three paternal lineages in purebred Chinooks. Two of the three haplotypes are in the same haplogroup, so they're evolutionarily close (but given the mutation rate of the Y likely not the last 40 years). The third is in a different haplogroup, so definitely a different origin. It's fair to say, that there are multiple sires in their history. ".

Hmmm.  Fascinating.  The tested males so far are a Benjamin's Kuska sireline descendant (via WoodsRunner Duncan), a North Wind Nome grandson, and I believe a North Wind Kodiac son. Here's a summary of the results we have: 

	Haplogroup	Haplotype
North Wind Kodiac son	A1a	H1a.7
North Wind Nome grandson	A1a	H1a.8
Benjamin's Kuska g-g-g grandson	A2b	Hc.9

I've spoken with some of you, and we are in the process of sending additional samples of male Chinooks to Embark to be tested.  This includes:

• Sireline descendant of North Wind Kiska
  
• Sireline descendant of Benjamin's Tekoa
  
• Additional sireline descendant of Benjamin's Kuska
  

It will be fascinating to see what these results come back as in a couple of months. 

When the additional results come back, I intend to open discussion on the CPP pedigrees based on the results.  If you have any additional ideas of dogs that could/should be tested to help solve any mysteries, please let me know.

We may have a real opportunity to address some of the mysteries that have long plagued our ability to have a clean, accurate pedigree database.  Yes, it was a long time ago, but I would be thrilled to "close the case" for the breed if possible.  

--

Karen Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

[Ginger Corley]

I have several direct male descendants of North Wind Kiska.  Too bad we were never able to get North Wind Riki’s direct male bloodline bred beyond his son.  That would have been interesting as well since he looked exactly like North Wind Kodiac on steroids since he was in such great shape even into his old age.

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

 

---Original Message---

<snip>

[Karen Hinchy]

There is a NW Kiska great-grandson being tested, but additional tests never hurt.  :)

I really really wish we had some of Ford's Mac or NW Riki's sireline still here to test.  The things we could learn!

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[Susan E Bragg]

GOOD Post/Update, Karen, THANKS again from me too.  As you know; It all feels premature yet; until you gain those needed results on Kissy, Toes, & 2nd Ku sire line descendants, aye.  For if I've learned 1 thing these past 25 yrs, it's to make NO FURTHER ASSUMPTIONS unless & until absolutely necessary this genome!  For we NONE of us (including Joyce) EVER PROVED NW KODIAC was KODIAC; or NOME was NOME, from all 1995-2015 researches combined, exactly.  So there remains THAT to further consider too; since they both 'came thru/via also ND kennels'.  As did Kissy, Hoonah & Tia & other 'NW' dogs, as you know.

VERY GOOD works to date then, steady as you go.  Lander remains fit too as I type, yep.  So depending on what next batch results reveal to Embark & you; I still think a combo of Lander sire line PLUS NW Hoonah DAM line descendant test(s) can give you fuller final nearness to Georgianna's Boney & Sheena blood too.  Which, as we all know; remains primary to NW dogs & the continued 6 Gen genome.  So those my continued thoughts as you go.  Kissy sire line result plus Toes/Ku comparisons may land you in a much clearer space next then, however, or so I too will hope :)  best, susan

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[Ginger Corley]

You have Harry, a direct male descendant of NW Kiska there in New England, which would be more accessible than my males in the West.  Ed is always willing to assist with these studies.  Any of the sons of Rodion are also direct male descendants.  Bob and Connie have one; I think their Robin is from Rodion via Raferty.

 

Ginger

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Karen Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

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[Karen Hinchy]

I have a coupon code for Embark if anyone is interested.  They are running a $40 off on the breeder test, so it's $139.

On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Ginger Corley <Gin...@hughes.net> wrote:

You have Harry, a direct male descendant of NW Kiska there in New England, which would be more accessible than my males in the West.  Ed is always willing to assist with these studies.  Any of the sons of Rodion are also direct male descendants.  Bob and Connie have one; I think their Robin is from Rodion via Raferty.

 

Ginger

 

 

[Karen Hinchy]

Hi all, 

Just wanted to say that we’ve received information on the genetic testing results of the Kiska sire line.  We are still waiting on information from the Bonehead and Toes sirelines, which I think will complete the picture. 

As noted in the chart below, Kiska’s sireline and Kodiac’s sireline share the same haplogroup and type.  This means they cannot be excluded as descending from the same sire — although this is not proof that they have the same sire.

We do know based on other results that Kodiac/Kiska descend at some point from a different male than Nome and Kuska.  Once we have the other results, I’ll be getting back to you and we can have what I am sure will be a robust discussion about what to do with historical pedigrees.  In the meantime, you may want to brush up on the other DNA information we already have about these dogs (in the groups’ prior messages).

  

Haplogroup	Haplotype
North Wind Kodiac son & Kiska g-grandson	A1a	H1a.7

North Wind Nome grandson	A1a	H1a.8
Benjamin's Kuska g-g-g grandson	A2b	Hc.9

[Britain Hill]

Thanks, Karen.

Britain

[Susan E Bragg]

Good works, steady as we go, woo woo! I've attached my brother & then Tullibardine Farm Chinooks partner's, Jack Murray's original dbase Archival/Record notes on North Wind Kiska. In case they have not already been shared hereon & others desire to chew on those too.

For this is about where we came in to the early/mid 1990s CCOA to COA 'mix' of dogs, in general. And I don't want Connie J or others here thinking I have too many secrets in 2018. Spilled most all of them by 2015, in fact, when we realized we needed MARS OS/genoscoper soonest, etc. Meanwhile, I'll pray to the gawds and dawgs the remaining results will indeed further inform us without needing a full/final DAM line(s) set of screenings subsequent.

As my gut already fear's it's probable, for the also full Reality Check 2018. But for today, me too, won't borrow more trouble, double woo woo! best, seb

Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/21/18, Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com" <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 21, 2018, 9:08 AM

Hi
all, 
Just wanted to say that
we’ve received information on the genetic testing results
of the Kiska sire line.  We are still waiting on
information from the Bonehead and Toes sirelines, which I
think will complete the picture. 
As noted in
the chart below, Kiska’s sireline and Kodiac’s sireline
share the same haplogroup and type.  This means they cannot
be excluded as descending from the same sire — although
this is not proof that they have the same
sire.
We do know based on other
results that Kodiac/Kiska descend at some point from a
different male than Nome and Kuska.  Once we have the other
results, I’ll be getting back to you and we can have what
I am sure will be a robust discussion about what to do with
historical pedigrees.  In the meantime, you may want to
brush up on the other DNA information we already have about
these dogs (in the groups’ prior
messages).  

Haplogroup HaplotypeNorth Wind Kodiac son & Kiska

[Ginger Corley]

Will this project be able to ascertain if they (Kodiac and Kiska) descend from the same dam?

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

 

 

 

[Karen Hinchy]

Well, there’s already DNA evidence that Kodiac and Kiska don’t descend from the same dam. 

But at this point, I haven’t been able to figure out a way to further explore that with the dogs that we have alive right now. 

Sent from my iPad

--

[Ginger Corley]

There are corrections to you’re the information in brother's note. When Harry let Bob and Connie take Kiska for the show in 1994, they bred him to their purebred bitch, WoodsRunner Ningo. It was a year later that the Jones bred Kiska to both my gray and tan bitch Holly (which set your brother off on quite a tirade) and to their cross bitch Timba within the same week.

I believe, from what Rick Strle told me, that he may have "harness broke" Kiska in Oregon at Ron McJunkin's place or close to him in the nearby Cascades since most of us live at low elevations and travel to the mountains to run our dogs. I don't think Ron actually sent Kiska to Rick. I didn't discuss this detail with Rick specifically; this is just the impression I got based on discussing Kiska with Rick.

You need to ensure that what you put forth as "fact" is truly such.

Ginger Corley
Rain Mountain Chinooks
established 1988
www.rainmountain.net

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[Ginger Corley]

But there is also DNA that shows they are from the SAME dam.  Bob and Connie paid for that DNA out of their own pockets, testing dogs that Harry identified to them.  That was the basis of the UKC studbook in the early 1990s.

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

 

 

 

 

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hinchy

Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 1:50 PM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com

 

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[Karen Hinchy]

I’ve seen no DNA evidence that Kodiac and Kiska have the same dam. If there is some, I’d love to see it. 

I’ve seen DNA evidence from multiple sources that says Kodiac is excluded from being Sheena’s pup whereas Kiska is included as having Sheena as his dam. 

And then I’ve seen claims that the Sheena tested might not be Sheena then....all dating after the results came back surprising people.  Which is concerningly like trying to make facts fit a theory instead of updating a theory to reflect facts. 

[Ginger Corley]

This goes back to Harry identifying two different dogs as Sheena.  First the one that Jones did DNA on originally for the UKC stud book then later when the Murrays did their DNA challenge.  No one ever asked to see the original DNA that was used.  But because Harry identified a different dog as Sheena, after he had told people that Sheena had died, there is different DNA on file now for a dog that was purported to be Sheena as well as the original Sheena.  That is how the whole debacle started.  That is why I believe that the dogs do have the same dam.  I believe the original DNA.  Not the DNA that was pulled from the second dog after the original Sheena died.

[Karen Hinchy]

Those are definitely some of the claims.  :) There are others, too, from those that, unlike you and I, were actually there.  Makes me wish we had video, and / or DNA banked from all the dogs back then.  Since we don’t, we’re stuck trying to piece together what we can with the DNA from years ago and the DNA we can get from today.  It will be an incomplete picture at best.

[Susan E Bragg]

G's factoids are further confused, as it was Joyce which knee jerked & said Sheena couldn't be Sheena, when DNA lab CLEARLY EXCLUDED her as his Dam!  Others played further in to AP Sheena's reality.  BUT HARRY nor others were ever confused.  JOYCE also then reported G Sheena dead, prematurely, NOT HARRY.  She was still sleeping on Harry's bed when Joyce made that claim too, if memory serves (grin;).

So to my knowledge, all extant samples on G Sheena matched.  All 2 or 3 of them, yep.  best, seb

And G needs to stop blaming Harry for Joyce's own inability to accept the labs results on her dog, frankly.  best, seb 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Susan E Bragg]

re: how to Recheck dam lines
I was just going to ask you, Karen H, if you can roster here the remaining dam lines within the Reference Population, somehow?  THEN I CAN USE THAT ROSTER to back in to 1981 dam lines/peds too,, in case we need to.  SOME have ENDED, so will not be testable, correct.  I think NW Tia's is one, unfortunately, if so.  That said, what are the chances Amanda or others may have STRIPER DNA in cryo?  Likely a long shot, but just thought to mention it.  Since I'm sure the other HH females are long gone, etc.  Anyway, me too trying to figure out how to hit the mtDna lines analysis best.  BASICALLY, we need to keep EMBARK(ing) any dam lines possible; and/or any suspected for any reason(s) as variant from the other 1, so far.  Find out if there are more.  Then see how that plays in to this mix of Sire line(s).  susan

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Karen Hinchy]

All of the damlines in Embark have come out with the same haplogroup and type.  Exactly as we’d expect - to the best of my knowledge, there are only two damlines in the breed, the standard Chinook one going back to… PG Tatla?  The sole female in the 4 dog bottleneck, anyway.  And Sweetie.  

Based on my research, there’s nothing out there left of North Wind damlines.  Tia’s ended with Striper and Baboo.  Hoonah’s ends with NE Wind Otter Run, who has been tested and has the same maternal haplogroup and haplotype as all other Chinooks.  Doesn’t guarantee the same damline, but includes it, anyway.  That’s all we can test right now, unless anyone else has ideas.

[Susan E Bragg]

THANKS for that Update on also NW Hoonah damline then, understood.  I'm expecting nothing forward; Also because we still only expected ONE line back to PG Riki 68...CHINOOK still too, until Embark Informed us that too was an unfounded assumption.  

NW Tia mtDna would sure have helped right about now, imho, but gone is gone, also understood.  OK the, steady as we go then.  I could still test 1 of my Nugget dam line females, frankly, to make sure that mtDNA indeed remains a variant (G TASHA).  But that remains an extreme wild card, only necessary if things go further south on you/the genome as it lives within ref pop, agreed.  Good works, susan

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Corine Lindhorst]

So it seems then that we need to work on including some non Chinook females into the outcross program as well.

 

Corine

High Plains Chinooks
Home of the working lap dogs

---

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hinchy
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2018 6:55 PM
To: Susan E Bragg
Cc: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees

 

All of the damlines in Embark have come out with the same haplogroup and type.  Exactly as we’d expect - to the best of my knowledge, there are only two damlines in the breed, the standard Chinook one going back to… PG Tatla?  The sole female in the 4 dog bottleneck, anyway.  And Sweetie.  

--

[Susan E Bragg]

My 2 remaining Unregistered (yet part of the genome as well as UKC SDRable) DAM LINES here have already aged OUT of Ref Pop, Corine, aye. Both my remaining Gray/Northdown GLENDONS TASHA females (turned 10yo last Nov); And my Bragg/of Seppala DARKA of SEPPALA females (turned 8yo last Aug). The Glendon's line(s) remain more inbred as well as more challenged on the paw. But that's to be expected.

Anyway, my 2 add'l dam lines yet exist but only in EXTINCTING on the paw terms genomically already. Add to this/that how husband says he desires for me NOT to reintroduce the Male 'seppinook' litterbro within new COA program even. Simply as COA was so DISINTERESTED in him since 2011 forward, etc. Old news and socio-politics then, agreed. But that's how I got here today too this discourse, no more no less.

It's also not news we've needed new dam lines since Tufts 1998. It was only when the oddities within first subsequent UMO Genetic Diversity Study surfaced that many breeders got completely stalled in the head(s) again, over some of these same- WHICH PEDS CAN WE TRUST?! issues. More history, just for the 2018 Record forward then.

SO I guess in effect, last breeder to in fact ADD a DAM LINE which became also UKC/COA sanctioned forward; Remains also Gray / Northdown. Others can correct me here if I'm wrong. But basically, we are still hanging in here by his also additions of G TASHA then G SWEETIE (whose dam line THANKFULLY remains withIN the Ref Pop, if I understand Karen H correctly). For it was also HARRY which alerted breeders again (me included) how her dau. became further available as an adult, when GM took her on, etc.

Which also may help to secondarily explain why I wish others would at least stop blaming Gray for some of Maley's also weaknesses, simply put. I think Karen is hoping the next 2 Sire line Results will be enough for her to ask what PED adjustments are next necessary. Basically, after we do that, I too hope someone will indeed plant their own New FEMALE FOUNDER among this extremely tried genome since 1939. best, seb

Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/21/18, Corine Lindhorst <hip...@mt.net> wrote:

Subject: RE: Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 21, 2018, 11:51 PM


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So it
seems then that we need to work on including
some non Chinook females into the outcross program as
well.


 



Corine


High
Plains Chinooks

Home
of the working lap dogs

[Karen Hinchy]

I'm working on it, Corine.  :)  Maybe 2019.  Not as easy as adding a sireline.  

Right now, if our peds are right (and all testing thus far is proving out the damlines, anyway) 99% of Chinook females share a single female ancestor.  There are TWO intact females that come from Glendon's Sweetie that represent a different damline.  

[Cheryl Brown]

Is it possible to get DNA from UofMo?  A lot of Chinooks are in the seizure study. You can also request the test for ? that affects the rear. I tested my dogs from the samples and all were negative. 

Cheryl Brown

[Karen Hinchy]

Hi Cheryl, 

You'd have to ask UMO if they would send blood to another organization, I don't know.  The DM test (think that is what you are talking about) I'm pretty sure is done at UMO, so they don't have to send anything anywhere.

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[Susan E Bragg]

I think Nancy B remains coordinator that CHINOOK DNA Research, last I too checked. I'm admittedly too grumpy to email her today. But fact is, a lot MORE of my own DAM LINE(s) DNA may remain in storage there too, Dr J's lab at UMO. So if UMO is willing to release any of that direct to COA for further Sire & Dam Line Researches via Embark or other means yet too, I remain willing to request/Donate it direct to COA CBCP. I think they have some of my own remaining NW Hoonah lineage there, as well as a LOT of my remaining SWC (CHINOOK) dam line lineage there, etc. Anyway, if we all begin to tear our hair(s) out after next 2 Sire Line Embark Results, I am willing to ask Nancy & Dr J what they can do, if anything. But not today. I'm tired & grumpy already and it's only 10:30AM ;) best, seb

Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 1/22/18, Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees

To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, January 22, 2018, 9:32 AM

--
Karen
Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

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[Susan E Bragg]

THANK YOU again, Karen! Do THAT, yes, also in your 'sparetime'?! (big grin ;). But I will remain your also FAN when you do it! That CHINOOK Male/Stud will also become one lucky dude upon that F1 Mating too then, whoever he becomes, woo woo! best, seb

Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 1/22/18, Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com

Date: Monday, January 22, 2018, 9:14 AM

I'm
working on it, Corine.  :)  Maybe 2019.  Not as easy as
adding a sireline.  

Right now, if our peds are right (and all
testing thus far is proving out the damlines, anyway) 99% of
Chinook females share a single female ancestor.  There are
TWO intact females that come from Glendon's Sweetie that
represent a different damline.  

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at

12:51 AM, Corine Lindhorst <hip...@mt.net>
wrote:















So it
seems then that we need to work on including
some non Chinook females into the outcross program as
well.

 



Corine


High
Plains Chinooks

Home
of the working lap dogs

[Kay Lee Brown]

Frontier Rain Dancer McKenzie and BrownStone Willamette (Willy) were also in the seizure study as negative.

 

Kay Lee

BrownStoneChinooks.blogspot.com

 

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cheryl Brown
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 7:30 AM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees

 

Is it possible to get DNA from UofMo?  A lot of Chinooks are in the seizure study. You can also request the test for ? that affects the rear. I tested my dogs from the samples and all were negative.