More PG Riki 1968 data 'wrap' fwiw-- was Re: More Updates on Genetic Testing...
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Susan E Bragg
Apr 17, 2018, 1:40:32 PM4/17/18
to chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
I had simply forgotten until further digi files reviews this morn how Les' good prior researches/gleanings also indicated PG Riki 68 litterbro TAIPAN Dale was labeled with CHD & short lived (died at 2yo). The litter data here again, fwiw, therefore.
"Savik x Ooma 4/27/68: 4 pups-Tara f-kennel, Riki m-kennel, Lanu (f) to kennel, Taipan Dale (m) of
Cleveland OH/Cape Neddick ME (sold by Smead) had CHD and died at age 2 (1970)"
For I read where CCA/AKC remains promoting the Bell/OFA approaches to these things CHINOOK HIPs too, etc. Point here is this-
I have no idea still whether to also trust Riki 68 Ped & breed(s) component(s) ITSELF, also based upon good newest EMBARK results.
No confidence in 2018, where he/this litter was also late SMEAD bred/pre RICHARDS bred, etc. Dunno. So I just say so, perhaps apropos to nothing until we also gain better CHD footing(s) via the remaining LIVING Ref Pop, agreed.
Forward marche, therefore, woo woo!
best, seb
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018, 4:10 PM
re: PG Riki 1968 DNA
To continue come perfectly clear-
IT WILL NOT BE ME which calls/emails
Pete A to ask if he yet owns Riki's beloved skeleton; And if
so, would he even consider subjecting it further to DNA
extraction(s), even IF there is a lab which could work with
him to also aid final Embark Sireline screening of DNA
extracted, etc.!
So I still LOVE DNA, but I don't have
that kind of audacity over bones as I do over the living, I
guess. Especially as it's NO LONGER NECESSARY to the
REMAINING LIVING in 2018; given MARS OS and Embark tools
already available to Mate remaining Ref Pop, imho.
It's wasted time, energy, $, etc.
The way I yet see it; there is damned little TIME left, NO
$, & breeder energies growing also thinner by the
litter(s), as the genome in fact extincts (as we knew it
could since also same 1998/9 UMO studies, etc.).
best, seb
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, 'Susan E Bragg' via
Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on Genetic
Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018, 3:55 PM
Basically, in further concise form-
UMO scientifically affirmed they had
ZERO confidence in our PEDS as
supplied within 1998/9 GSD.
Embark has scientifically affirmed we
are looking at at least 3 distinct
Sire line(s) for past 40
years or more, if I understand all
correctly.
Those 2 pro gleanings remain degrees
in
sync, therefore. Which is the good
news, imho.
Harder news is how to reset 6Gen peds
on today's remaining Ref Pop.
Because even if we OPEN
ALL 1981 RESCUE PEDS too finally (as
MANY have also
suggested thru the decades for variant
reason(s)); That too
may not hit all the add'l REAL IDd
variances at SW/Yokayo/AP
DOWNLINE(s) levels, in short.
Georgianna's/Benjamin's,
etc.
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, 'Susan E Bragg' via
Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on
Genetic
Testing and Historic Chinook
Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018,
3:39 PM
Questionable SIRE LINE(ages) are
not
quite
SAME as questionable
PARENTAGE(s)/SIRE(s), Carie.
POINT remains this hour, how ALL
of
these Sire line(s) remain
QUESTIONABLE
in RELATION to PG
Riki 1968.
Which rather means we need to
remove
ALL SIRE LINE(s) of ALL MALE
CHINOOK(s) at SOME linear
point(s), agreed.
I yet suggest we do it at NW,
Georgianna's/Benjamin's SIRE(s)
levels, for starters (as
outlined already in prior
posts).
For as the Embark sire
lineage(s)
plus
all prior DNA ID lineage(s)
continue
suggest;
There are AT LEAST 2 SW dogs in
question still (Nanook and
Cygnus); as
well as
2 Georgianna's dogs in question
(Bonehead & Sheena). That
remains the short
reality from where I too sit
today.
Because Y CHEENA is also duly
involved,
as well as
VICTORS(essentially AP)
female(s), as
well as perhaps further
BACKROADS
dogs, & the REAL list
of REAL VARIABLES does yet go on
SINCE
1995.
So since there is NO WAY to go
back
to
gain DNA on Nanook, Cygnus,
Bonehead
or Sheena themselves;
let alone ANY WAY to in fact
COMPARE
it to REAL DNA of PG
Riki 1968; what happened is we
are
sitting on a genome which
we lost ABILITY to DNA LINK to
1968.
All the rest is conjecture.
NO SENSE having a GUESSING GAME
WHICH
(IF ANY) of these 3 REAL SIRE
LINE(ages) indeed goes back to
PG RIKI 68.
For it's all just shadowing one
another
again, which remains harmful, to
both
the breeders and the
REALLY EXTINCTING GENOME
finally.
It's truly time to let go of
Riki
68/Chinook linkages,
therefore. To
also continue
clearly float better peds for
the new
Embark/MARS OS matings
tools, in short. That's
plenty
enough unless others
come up with real Riki 68
Generation
DNA. With those
Matings tools, we don't need to
KNOW
more than the also
continue Haplotype(s)/group(s),
frankly.
For I am NOT GOING to even ASK
those
I
know had dogs from 1968 gen(s)
if they
yet own their dog's
posthumous skeletons.
Too gross a proposition for me
still/even to ask folks to
begin
exhuming skeletons of their
beloveds in order to gain
further
REALITY check pre &
post RESCUE.
IF we had some of the also
PENDING
SW/Yokayo/AP DNA already,
maybe.
But likely not even then would I
be
one
to dig up old bones, let alone
ask
others to do so.
FOR I HAVE NO PROOF ANY of the
RESCUE
Kennels/PEDS too were accurate,
is
why. ZERO. In
fact, even Joyce once suggested
to me
how she too wondered
if SUKEE added a GSD, etc.
HellifIknow. Joyce
admitted she too was simply
CONJECTURING!
So I think it's better to just
admit
what we DON"T KNOW and likely
NEVER
WILL KNOW NOW the Sire
lines are already at 3 and
counting,
& NONE of them
remains in fact traceable to
Riki
68. Otherwise, it's
just breeders bickering for the
sake
of bickering,
imho. Again, been there, done
that,
sine 1997.
As you can see- it too didn't
much aid
this genome, in
fact.
best, seb
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl
Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, Carie Taylor
<chino...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on
Genetic
Testing and Historic Chinook
Pedigrees
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018,
2:09 PM
If DNA is showing
these dogs have questionable
parentage, then shouldn't
the pedigrees be changed to show
these
dogs as having
"open" parentage? No one
likes
having a big
question mark in a pedigree but
it is
better
than inaccurate
information.
Carie Taylor
Moonsong Chinooks
http://moonsongchinooks.blogspot.com
chino...@hotmail.com
moonson...@yahoo.com
From:
chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf
of Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018
12:13
PM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: More Updates on
Genetic
Testing and Historic
Chinook Pedigrees
Hi all,
Some additional information from
the
DNA tests on
Chinook sirelines from the 90s
has
come in, and it
is....puzzling. As noted
previously,
paternal haplogroups
and type come solely from the
sire.
Dogs that all descend
from the same ancestor (e..g,
Perry
Greene Riki 1968) in the
sireline should have the same
paternal haplogroup/type. So,
based
on our pedigrees we
would expect ALL Chinook males
to have
the same paternal
haplogroup/type as their
pedigrees go
back to Perry Greene
Riki 1968.
Embark (who did the testing)
confirmed
that these
results are evidence of
multiple
sirelines in the breed....
or in other words, our pedigrees
are
wrong and not all
sirelines go back to Perry
Greene Riki
1968. They further
noted this evidence identifies
at least three different
sirelines in the dogs tested,
as
even those in the same
haplogroup are
ridiculously unlikely
to have mutated in the
twenty-odd
years since the 90s.
The results/What it Means:
The CPP pedigrees are incorrect
-
either in the last
few generations (less likely)
or
somewhere further back in
the pedigrees than the sirelines
noted
(more likely).
North Wind Nome is not a full
sibling to North
Wind Kodiac & Kiska. North
Wind
Kodiac & Kiska
have the same sireline and
cannot be
excluded from sharing a
sire. Georgianna's Bonehead
and
Benjamin's Kuska & Tekoa are
not
full siblings -
they are excluded from sharing a
sire
(currently noted as
Singing Woods
Nanook)Georgianna's
Bonehead and
North Wind Nome have the same
sireline
and cannot be
excluded from sharing a sire
/paternal
ancestor.
I can't think of a way to
determine
which of
these sirelines actually goes
back to
Perry Greene Riki
1968, or if ANY of them do.
So. I leave this out for
people to
digest and ask
questions, and some time later
this
week will steer towards
a "so what do we do about it"?
It
sets badly
with me that we KNOW the
pedigrees are
incorrect.
We've long known this but been
in
denial with
the NW pedigrees....this
actually take it beyond that.
--
Karen
Hinchy
Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com
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"Savik x Ooma 4/27/68: 4 pups-Tara f-kennel, Riki m-kennel, Lanu (f) to kennel, Taipan Dale (m) of
Cleveland OH/Cape Neddick ME (sold by Smead) had CHD and died at age 2 (1970)"
For I read where CCA/AKC remains promoting the Bell/OFA approaches to these things CHINOOK HIPs too, etc. Point here is this-
I have no idea still whether to also trust Riki 68 Ped & breed(s) component(s) ITSELF, also based upon good newest EMBARK results.
No confidence in 2018, where he/this litter was also late SMEAD bred/pre RICHARDS bred, etc. Dunno. So I just say so, perhaps apropos to nothing until we also gain better CHD footing(s) via the remaining LIVING Ref Pop, agreed.
Forward marche, therefore, woo woo!
best, seb
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on Genetic Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018, 4:10 PM
re: PG Riki 1968 DNA
To continue come perfectly clear-
IT WILL NOT BE ME which calls/emails
Pete A to ask if he yet owns Riki's beloved skeleton; And if
so, would he even consider subjecting it further to DNA
extraction(s), even IF there is a lab which could work with
him to also aid final Embark Sireline screening of DNA
extracted, etc.!
So I still LOVE DNA, but I don't have
that kind of audacity over bones as I do over the living, I
guess. Especially as it's NO LONGER NECESSARY to the
REMAINING LIVING in 2018; given MARS OS and Embark tools
already available to Mate remaining Ref Pop, imho.
It's wasted time, energy, $, etc.
The way I yet see it; there is damned little TIME left, NO
$, & breeder energies growing also thinner by the
litter(s), as the genome in fact extincts (as we knew it
could since also same 1998/9 UMO studies, etc.).
best, seb
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, 'Susan E Bragg' via
Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on Genetic
Testing and Historic Chinook Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018, 3:55 PM
Basically, in further concise form-
UMO scientifically affirmed they had
ZERO confidence in our PEDS as
supplied within 1998/9 GSD.
Embark has scientifically affirmed we
are looking at at least 3 distinct
Sire line(s) for past 40
years or more, if I understand all
correctly.
Those 2 pro gleanings remain degrees
in
sync, therefore. Which is the good
news, imho.
Harder news is how to reset 6Gen peds
on today's remaining Ref Pop.
Because even if we OPEN
ALL 1981 RESCUE PEDS too finally (as
MANY have also
suggested thru the decades for variant
reason(s)); That too
may not hit all the add'l REAL IDd
variances at SW/Yokayo/AP
DOWNLINE(s) levels, in short.
Georgianna's/Benjamin's,
etc.
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, 'Susan E Bragg' via
Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on
Genetic
Testing and Historic Chinook
Pedigrees
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018,
3:39 PM
Questionable SIRE LINE(ages) are
not
quite
SAME as questionable
PARENTAGE(s)/SIRE(s), Carie.
POINT remains this hour, how ALL
of
these Sire line(s) remain
QUESTIONABLE
in RELATION to PG
Riki 1968.
Which rather means we need to
remove
ALL SIRE LINE(s) of ALL MALE
CHINOOK(s) at SOME linear
point(s), agreed.
I yet suggest we do it at NW,
Georgianna's/Benjamin's SIRE(s)
levels, for starters (as
outlined already in prior
posts).
For as the Embark sire
lineage(s)
plus
all prior DNA ID lineage(s)
continue
suggest;
There are AT LEAST 2 SW dogs in
question still (Nanook and
Cygnus); as
well as
2 Georgianna's dogs in question
(Bonehead & Sheena). That
remains the short
reality from where I too sit
today.
Because Y CHEENA is also duly
involved,
as well as
VICTORS(essentially AP)
female(s), as
well as perhaps further
BACKROADS
dogs, & the REAL list
of REAL VARIABLES does yet go on
SINCE
1995.
So since there is NO WAY to go
back
to
gain DNA on Nanook, Cygnus,
Bonehead
or Sheena themselves;
let alone ANY WAY to in fact
COMPARE
it to REAL DNA of PG
Riki 1968; what happened is we
are
sitting on a genome which
we lost ABILITY to DNA LINK to
1968.
All the rest is conjecture.
NO SENSE having a GUESSING GAME
WHICH
(IF ANY) of these 3 REAL SIRE
LINE(ages) indeed goes back to
PG RIKI 68.
For it's all just shadowing one
another
again, which remains harmful, to
both
the breeders and the
REALLY EXTINCTING GENOME
finally.
It's truly time to let go of
Riki
68/Chinook linkages,
therefore. To
also continue
clearly float better peds for
the new
Embark/MARS OS matings
tools, in short. That's
plenty
enough unless others
come up with real Riki 68
Generation
DNA. With those
Matings tools, we don't need to
KNOW
more than the also
continue Haplotype(s)/group(s),
frankly.
For I am NOT GOING to even ASK
those
I
know had dogs from 1968 gen(s)
if they
yet own their dog's
posthumous skeletons.
Too gross a proposition for me
still/even to ask folks to
begin
exhuming skeletons of their
beloveds in order to gain
further
REALITY check pre &
post RESCUE.
IF we had some of the also
PENDING
SW/Yokayo/AP DNA already,
maybe.
But likely not even then would I
be
one
to dig up old bones, let alone
ask
others to do so.
FOR I HAVE NO PROOF ANY of the
RESCUE
Kennels/PEDS too were accurate,
is
why. ZERO. In
fact, even Joyce once suggested
to me
how she too wondered
if SUKEE added a GSD, etc.
HellifIknow. Joyce
admitted she too was simply
CONJECTURING!
So I think it's better to just
admit
what we DON"T KNOW and likely
NEVER
WILL KNOW NOW the Sire
lines are already at 3 and
counting,
& NONE of them
remains in fact traceable to
Riki
68. Otherwise, it's
just breeders bickering for the
sake
of bickering,
imho. Again, been there, done
that,
sine 1997.
As you can see- it too didn't
much aid
this genome, in
fact.
best, seb
Susan E Bragg
Seppala Kennels & Atholl
Chinooks
http://seppalakennels.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 4/16/18, Carie Taylor
<chino...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: More Updates on
Genetic
Testing and Historic Chinook
Pedigrees
To: "chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com"
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018,
2:09 PM
If DNA is showing
these dogs have questionable
parentage, then shouldn't
the pedigrees be changed to show
these
dogs as having
"open" parentage? No one
likes
having a big
question mark in a pedigree but
it is
better
than inaccurate
information.
Carie Taylor
Moonsong Chinooks
http://moonsongchinooks.blogspot.com
chino...@hotmail.com
moonson...@yahoo.com
From:
chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
<chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
on behalf
of Karen Hinchy <kcc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018
12:13
PM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: More Updates on
Genetic
Testing and Historic
Chinook Pedigrees
Hi all,
Some additional information from
the
DNA tests on
Chinook sirelines from the 90s
has
come in, and it
is....puzzling. As noted
previously,
paternal haplogroups
and type come solely from the
sire.
Dogs that all descend
from the same ancestor (e..g,
Perry
Greene Riki 1968) in the
sireline should have the same
paternal haplogroup/type. So,
based
on our pedigrees we
would expect ALL Chinook males
to have
the same paternal
haplogroup/type as their
pedigrees go
back to Perry Greene
Riki 1968.
Embark (who did the testing)
confirmed
that these
results are evidence of
multiple
sirelines in the breed....
or in other words, our pedigrees
are
wrong and not all
sirelines go back to Perry
Greene Riki
1968. They further
noted this evidence identifies
at least three different
sirelines in the dogs tested,
as
even those in the same
haplogroup are
ridiculously unlikely
to have mutated in the
twenty-odd
years since the 90s.
The results/What it Means:
The CPP pedigrees are incorrect
-
either in the last
few generations (less likely)
or
somewhere further back in
the pedigrees than the sirelines
noted
(more likely).
North Wind Nome is not a full
sibling to North
Wind Kodiac & Kiska. North
Wind
Kodiac & Kiska
have the same sireline and
cannot be
excluded from sharing a
sire. Georgianna's Bonehead
and
Benjamin's Kuska & Tekoa are
not
full siblings -
they are excluded from sharing a
sire
(currently noted as
Singing Woods
Nanook)Georgianna's
Bonehead and
North Wind Nome have the same
sireline
and cannot be
excluded from sharing a sire
/paternal
ancestor.
I can't think of a way to
determine
which of
these sirelines actually goes
back to
Perry Greene Riki
1968, or if ANY of them do.
So. I leave this out for
people to
digest and ask
questions, and some time later
this
week will steer towards
a "so what do we do about it"?
It
sets badly
with me that we KNOW the
pedigrees are
incorrect.
We've long known this but been
in
denial with
the NW pedigrees....this
actually take it beyond that.
--
Karen
Hinchy
Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com
--
You received this message
because you
are subscribed to the
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