NW Nome and Tia dna peds

[Susan E Bragg]

I think we did exclude NW Kiska finally as sire of either, if memory serves. 

I'm ready to Vet/Validate either NW Rikki or G Bonehead, as their sire, as out out of G Sheena, the second litter (Oct 1986), whenever others are.  I'm also ready to accept a top statistical probability on that, by Karen H/Carol B even, aye.  WHATEVER is safer to the also GENOME, the living ref pop, aye.  best, susan

[Karen Hinchy]

At least based on the allele sets that I have seen for Georgianna's Sheena, Kiska, Nome, and Tia, Kiska can be excluded as the sire of Tia and Nome.  He can be directly excluded as a parent for Tia, and excluded for Nome based on Sheena as the other parent.  

There is a separate issue in that we validated Rikki as coming from the second North Wind litter.  But Susan, you found the paper transferring Rikki to Rick Strle, signed by breeder Ron McJunkin, which was dated about 6 weeks prior the second litter being born.  Using that and the pedigree signed by Ron McJunkin, it would seem we incorrectly assigned Rikki to the second litter when he was in fact part of the first litter.  We do have validated an unnamed male - North Wind Cygnus/Sheena Male -- in the first litter (dob 2/28/86).  I suspect this male is in fact Rikki.

Based on the timing of Rikki's transfer to Rick Strle, Rikki could indeed be the (or perhaps, a) sire of the second North Wind litter.  It would explain the rather remarkable homogeneity of Nome and Tia's known alleles.  It is also interesting that Rikki was transferred to Rick Strle about a week or so after Sheena would have been bred to produce her second litter.... :)

At a minimum we should move Rikki from the second North Wind litter to the first - Susan, could you send the photo of the NW Peidgree and Ron's transfer document for Rikki to this list?  

At this time - I'm not sure what to do about Nome and Tia's pedigrees.  The Sheena that was DNA tested is consistent with her siblings, etc, so it is likely she really was the right Sheena.  That would mean our pedigrees for Nome, Tia, and Kodiac, which are now all set to Cygnus x Sheena, are probably incorrect in CPP.

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:54 PM, 'Susan E Bragg' via Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I think we did exclude NW Kiska finally as sire of either, if memory serves. 

I'm ready to Vet/Validate either NW Rikki or G Bonehead, as their sire, as out out of G Sheena, the second litter (Oct 1986), whenever others are.  I'm also ready to accept a top statistical probability on that, by Karen H/Carol B even, aye.  WHATEVER is safer to the also GENOME, the living ref pop, aye.  best, susan

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Karen Hinchy

Bashaba Chinooks
www.bashabachinooks.com

[Susan E Bragg]

yupyup, you read my mind with regards to the also transfer date out of NW on Rikki.  Docs are buried in my digi files here still, but will make this a priority in morn over java.  Thank you.  For I think we got Sheena and Kiska right, and don't even mention the homogeneity on nome and tia again, because that's what some of my living remain also suffering hereby in cold this month.  dysplasia within homogeneity, and how wow.  One of mine is also at 100% COR as peds sit if Rikki is sire of 2nd NW litter, aye.  Stevie, too young to be also dysplastic.  I have no xray, but I don't really need one when another 8yo starts 'thinking' about HOW to come up stairs.  Meanwhile, Sampson is holding his own, but I expect his hips are as dicey as T-Bone(s), aye.  Sigh.  susan  

[Ginger Corley]

I know based on many, many conversations with Rick Strle that he did not breed Riki to any of Ron McJunkin’s females.  He bred him once to a Chinook Cross bitch that Harry sent him but as he told me, “the bitch was crazy and ate almost all of her newborn pups,” So he sent her back to Harry.  Harry sent him a second Chinook Cross bitch that he bred to Riki but a workman on his property went into the kennel with the pups.  When Rick asked him what he was doing in there, the man told Rick, that he was, “sad because his dog had just died of parvo and he wanted to see the puppies just to cheer up.”  All of the litter except one, Jake, contracted parvo and died.  However, Jake, despite being a wonderful weight puller like Riki, was bit by a rattlesnake and died when he was two years old.  It was shortly after Jake’s death that I called Rick to ask him about breeding Holly to Riki and our friendship began.

 

But he did NOT breed Riki to any of Ron McJunkin’s females.  He thought Ron was somewhat pathetic and was glad to hear that he wasn’t breeding any longer.  He tried to get him involved in sledding but wasn’t successful.

 

You would also have had to have Rick Strle up in Oregon when he was actually down in the southern California desert running his HVAC business.

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

-

[Karen Hinchy]

You would also have had to have Rick Strle up in Oregon when he was actually down in the southern California desert running his HVAC business.

Actually Ginger, I didn't say Rick Strle might have bred Rikki to Sheena (Ron McJunkin's female and Rikki's mother, for those following along at home).  I said Rikki could indeed be the (or perhaps, a) sire of the second North Wind litter.  

Let me try to clarify - according to the document Ron signed, Rikki was transferred to Rick Strle in mid August- around the 12th or so.  Sheena's second litter was whelped on October 4 - which means she would have been bred in early August (around the 2nd).  So.... if those records are accurate, young Rikki was at North Wind with Sheena in early August when she was bred.  Before Rick even owned Rikki.  

Couple of things- 1 we have Rikki validated in the wrong North Wind litter, he couldn't have been born in the October litter if he was transferred to Rick Strle in August.  We should fix this.  2 I don't KNOW that Rikki sired the second North Wind litter, but apparently he was on the same property as the bitch when she would have been bred, we know that Nome and Tia have strikingly homogeneous allele sets from their DNA analysis.  This COULD be consistent with a mother - son mating.  Might not be, but could be.  

Here are the dates, for those that like the details:

• 2/28/06 First North Wind LItter born (purportedly to Singing Woods Cygnus x Georgianna's Sheena)
  
•  We validated Hoonah, Kenai, Kiska, Kodiac, Koyuk and Unnamed Male from this litter.
• 8/2/86     Georgianna's Sheena was bred again (date back-calculated from whelping date...give or take a day or two)
  
• 8/12/86??  Rikki transferred from Ron McJunkin to Rick Strle per signed transfer paperwork.  Can't remember the exact date but know it was the week or so after Sheena would have been bred for the second litter.  Susan, can you send the document through?
• 10/4/86 Second North Wind LItter born (purportedly to Singing Woods Cygnus x Georgianna's Sheena)
  

Now, if we had Rikki's DNA profile, we could quickly compare it to Nome and Tia to include or exclude him as a sire.  

[Ginger Corley]

According to Rick Strle though, he had Riki as a puppy, well before he was six months old.  He talked to me about seeing Kiska when Kiska was six months old and how the two pups didn’t look alike but had the same desire to pull when he did some initial harness training on Kiska for Ron McJunkin when Ron had sent Kiska to him for training.  So the date of the receipt doesn’t seem to correlate with the date I was told that he got Riki.  Something doesn’t jive here.  Rick Strle had no reason to tell me he got Riki as a pup unless he did.

 

Riki’s DNA is on file with UKC.  If anyone ever wants to use it to verify his relation to the rest of the litter, they simply have to ask UKC.  Since I don’t have any ownership of him, I never received a copy of the results.

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

-

 

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Karen Hinchy
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 3:06 PM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

 

 

You would also have had to have Rick Strle up in Oregon when he was actually down in the southern California desert running his HVAC business.

--

[Corine Lindhorst]

I’m working on that Ginger, it may not be so simple.

 

Corine

High Plains Chinooks
Home of the working lap dogs

---

[Susan E Bragg]

Thanks Karen H, for also weighing in, I will attend from here to also Rikki again soon as windchill comes above 0F again, which might not be until Sat, but hopeTHAT's wrong too.  Rikki and Kiska and Bonehead were likely all still at NW at the time of mating of Sheena for her Oct 1986 whelps, aye.  Kiska is exluded, Bonehead may be included, and Rikki may remain most likely culprit yet, as oops sire of that same Oct 1986 litter, inclusive of Nome and Tia, correct.  I really DO need ma nature to give me further break here before I can get lost again in my digi and material files.  best, susan

[Susan E Bragg]

Also mean time; It WOULD BE BEST if Corine could in fact gain and share with you/Karen H, Rikki's UKC dna allele set, yes.  Waiting any longer on that is not best for the also living genome, hope that too goes without saying.  best, susan

[Susan E Bragg]

Ginger; Do you have no old UKC/MMI or other genomics Parent Evaluation Table on any of your also Rikki offspring DNA VIP reports of old, say?  That you could share Rikki's Allele set with Karen H for comparisons (with Nome and Tia)?  Just a thought.  I have shared a LOT of my old VIP kids PETs with also Karen H already this project to also get us thus far within need for better NW and ND dna peds, aye.  thanks, susan

[Susan E Bragg]

And/or that goes for anyone here with an also UKC DNA VIP offspring of NW Rikki, can you recheck your DNA files on them to see if UKC provided you a cert PLUS ParentageEvaluationTable, which might yet carry Rikki's also allele(s) thereon ?  If so, fwd to Karen H and/or Corine L?  Thanks much.  Susan

[Ginger Corley]

I may have Jenna’s (Riki x Holly) around somewhere but it would take a few days of looking to find it.  We did a dual sire breeding with her and Tamanawas Tahoma and WoodsRunner Rorik for her first litter (all the pups were Rorik’s) so the whole litter and Jenna had DNA done.

 

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

-

 

 

 

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 8:50 AM
To: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

 

Ginger; Do you have no old UKC/MMI or other genomics Parent Evaluation Table on any of your also Rikki offspring DNA VIP reports of old, say?  That you could share Rikki's Allele set with Karen H for comparisons (with Nome and Tia)?  Just a thought.  I have shared a LOT of my old VIP kids PETs with also Karen H already this project to also get us thus far within need for better NW and ND dna peds, aye.  thanks, susan

[Susan E Bragg]

Thanks, Ginger, if you would start a dig for it, as every hour UKC doesn't also simply haul up their dbase and verbally provide Corine with Rikki's allele set even, or just fax her a report of it, etc.; Is honestly giving me Nugget DNA Challenge ptsd episodes here.  As I just related to Karen, UKC blamed their own President's death and funeral as the 'cause' for 'loss' of our first entire packet sent and received by UKC then.  We had to stop payment, plus reproduce the entire challenge 2mos after they attempted to deep six it this way, frankly.  Which we did.  But they only took notice when they rec'd second packet more inclusive than the first, plus same money they tried to throw away the first time, frankly. The studbooks are not interested in the also genomes which feed them, sad but true.  Every time in past I have given them also benefit of the doubt(s); It too proves they were simply running interference all along.  Again, this is not slander; As it's been my real factual experience for WAY too long this genome.  I do still abhor the day COA went UKC offically too then, way back when.  A lot of wasted resources, not to mention good dogs now gone.  best, susan

[Susan E Bragg]

OK, Karen H should be in possession of the Rikki transfer doc/ped.  I'm not going to upload it here, frankly; As it may also further exacerbate WW III with ghost of Joyce or Harry.  Which I agree we do not yet need to wage here or elsewhere; before Rikki's also dna profile is further compared with Nome, Tia, and G Sheena, & others if need be, aye.  Suffice it to say; How I believe everything Karen H has stated below remains to date true and correct, by both my own research, as well as consistent with Jack's prior, all the way back to 1996 at least.  It's just I believe also more already, but admittedly ahead of the generation(s) game here yet then, understood.

OR; If we are AT the point where it's more expedient than ever to reVet/Validate Nome and Tia as Rikki x Sheena; Plus Kodiac as sired by Bonehead x OPEN dam, say; I'm yet willing and perhaps ready; Depending on what probabilities Karen H is feeling, and/or whether Corine feels she is likely to come up with Rikki profile (or NOT).

I am still afraid there may be further unknown Kodiac and Rikki sibling (full or half) statuses then.  And I DID also need to restate that here, for the also CPP discourse/records atleast.  But Karen H has and is still also making some good sense, genetically, with regards to the also living genome down from all these NW dogs, I know.  So today I'm back to wondering whether Probabilities indicate it's safe to Validate Nome and Tia, and find a way to help me stop fretting how to also revalidate Kodiac without need of complete 'OPEN'. 

Because I"M the one who feels he could be another also inbred vs CB chinook even.  If so; my gut says there are near SW/Yokayo/AP 'roots' to that.  But that's where the research too leaves off this hour.  I cannot say if a SW or AP dog was switched out at ND for also joyce's Kodiac. 

BUT Bonehead and Y Cheena were still 'there' with either NW or Benjamin's, when Kodiac was supposedly conceived at NW, according to the documents.  And the images of Hoonah, Kodiac, & their two 'white brothers' remain also crystal clear.  As do the docs which indicate those 4 were shipped direct from NW to ND, whoever they are, aye. 

So I'm still listening how you/we choose to proceed here yet too; With or without Rikki profile.  If Corine is meeting with also NO success, then I'm still listening too.  How to still validate better peds these dogs soonest, even without further Lay or PRO analyses.  I will resend Karen H the also litter doc/Note of Joyce's shows Bonehead transfer out to ND.  best, susan   

[Susan E Bragg]

Hi ALL,
In ongoing email discourse/exchanges with Richard Strle this Winter; There is this much to Report here; Which may indeed aid us in re-Validating NW Nome and Tia PEDS, should we so choose now. (NOTE:  I have purposely suppressed his reply header/email addy to protect his privacy, as well as removed further topical as well as personal content, unrelated to Nome/Tia peds.  But can also supply entire email to Karen H/CPP Project coordinator; and/or to COA Registrar yet too; Should we make further CPP Validations based hereon.)--

From: Susan E Bragg [mailto:ross...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2015 9:39 AM
To: Richard Strle
Subject: Re: NW Riki of Bear Creek CHINOOK dogs Inquiry - BEAR CREEK RACING
Hello Richard;

....

Also; long stories short; if it's also TRUE your Riki was 6mos old or so when Ron placed him with you; Then turns out he COULD be the also mystery/missing SIRE of the second North Wind litter, born Oct 1986, including Nome and Tia (which many of my dogs remain also descended from).  Since 1996-2000 DNA ID/pedigree results affirmed the NW dogs were NOT ALL full siblings, in short!   This is true – Ron mentioned he was trying.

Riki also sired 1 liter in his elder years , in California ; I will look for that info as well.

....

[Ginger Corley]

Has it ever occurred to anyone to call and ask Rick Strle to release his DNA?  You’ll get much further if it’s a male voice on the phone asking for it as his wife is the jealous sort that was sure I was out to ruin their marriage by talking to him about dogs.  (If that was ruining their marriage, it was in pretty bad shape before I ever showed up!  And in no way was I having an affair with Rick Strle; my personal rules are no fooling around with married men.  Plus his wife Sylvia is substantially bigger than I am.  Donald J didn’t raise an idiot for a youngest daughter.)   I bet if someone asked, Rick would share Riki’s DNA.  I have his address though no longer have his phone number.  The best way to reach his is at his business.  If anyone wants to take it on, I can help give you the basic info on Rick that you’ll need.

Ginger Corley

Rain Mountain Chinooks

established 1988

www.rainmountain.net

                                                                                                                                                                              

 

From: chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2016 11:07 AM
To: Chinook Pedigree Project <chinook-pedi...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: NW Nome and Tia dna peds

 

Hi ALL,

[Karen Hinchy]

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 11:15 PM, Ginger Corley <Gin...@hughes.net> wrote:

Has it ever occurred to anyone to call and ask Rick Strle to release his DNA?  

Um, yeah.  Of course Susan askedl Rick if he would release Riki's DNA certificate.  He's even been provided with a form to request a new certificate from UKC, and told the fee would be covered (hell, I'll pay it) if he hasn't kept all the records on a dog that has been dead for years.  

We have not heard back from Rick yet.  We may or may not ever hear from him.  We do have, however, some pretty compelling evidence short of Riki's actual DNA certificate, that would support the DNA evidence we have LONG had on the North Wind dogs.  Compelling evidence that includes source documents with undisputed chain of custody.  So....feels like it is worth a conversation at this point!