Old Chinese Office documents in Mac OS X?

[Ant]

Hello.

Is there a way to use old Chinese TTF files (also, where to get them?)
from old Windows (98 SE, 2000, and XP) in Mac OS X (e.g., 10.5.8 and
10.8.3)? In an updated Mac OS X 10.8.3 with updated Mac Office 2011,
it seems to have problems showing Chinese characters (none -- just
garbled symbols and letters) in very old files (e.g., Word .doc files
from Y2K). It seems like the fonts (e.g., Chn UKai M TT) are missing
according to Office? I believe these fonts were from TwinBridge
software and don't support Macs :(

Thank you in advance. :)

[John Delacour]

On 23/03/2013 21:44, Ant wrote:

> Is there a way to use old Chinese TTF files (also, where to get them?)
> from old Windows (98 SE, 2000, and XP) in Mac OS X (e.g., 10.5.8 and
> 10.8.3)?

If you can save the documents as plain text documents on the original
system then there is no problem. It is not the fonts (which you can
forget) that you are concerned with but the obsolete character sets, ie.
big5 for traditional Chinese and gb-2312 for simplified. The documents
need to be converted to Unicode UTF-8.

If you have an old text document written in big5 encoding, you can open
it in TextWrangler or BBEdit specifying this encoding and it will
display correctly. You can then change the encoding to UTF-8 and save
it. After that it can be opened in any text editor or word processor
and the (Unicode) fonts and formatting changed to what you want.

The word processor Nisus Writer will allow you to choose the encoding of
documents you open but whether it will open such documents as you are
talking of and preserve formatting I rather doubt.

JD

[Henry Leperlier 羅維文]

The trial version of Wenlin lets you do this as well by dropping the file onto its icon.

It lets then you see different encodings and allow you to see which encoding your file has.

Henry Leperlier

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[Ant]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:39:10AM +0000, John Delacour wrote:
>
> >Is there a way to use old Chinese TTF files (also, where to get them?)
> >from old Windows (98 SE, 2000, and XP) in Mac OS X (e.g., 10.5.8 and
> >10.8.3)?

> If you can save the documents as plain text documents on the
> original system then there is no problem. It is not the fonts
> (which you can forget) that you are concerned with but the obsolete
> character sets, ie. big5 for traditional Chinese and gb-2312 for
> simplified. The documents need to be converted to Unicode UTF-8.

I don't have the old systems anymore, but I do have their old HDDs. I
might need to make a virtual machine (VM) with the old OSes and
softwares, but that will be tedious and might not have them. :/
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[Ant]

Is there a freeware of this tool to ID? I tried Terminal's file command
on a doc file (changed the names):

"test.doc: CDF V2 Document, Little Endian, Os: Windows, Version 4.10,
Code page: 1252, Title: ?鸨?j?D?D?P????, Author: First Last, Template:
Normal.dot, Last Saved By: First Last, Revision Number: 6, Name of
Creating Application: Microsoft Word 9.0, Total Editing Time: 06:00,
Last Printed: Mon Jul 31 04:43:00 2000, Create Time/Date: Sun Sep 17
05:07:00 2000, Last Saved Time/Date: Sun Sep 17 05:13:00 2000, Number of
Pages: 1, Number of Words: 602, Number of Characters: 3437, Security: 0"

I hope that helps for clues?

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 08:53:28AM +0800, Henry Leperlier 羅維文 wrote:
> The trial version of Wenlin lets you do this as well by dropping the file onto its icon.
>
> It lets then you see different encodings and allow you to see which encoding your file has.
>
> Henry Leperlier
>
>
> On 24 Mar 2013, at 08:39, John Delacour <johnde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 23/03/2013 21:44, Ant wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a way to use old Chinese TTF files (also, where to get them?)
> >> from old Windows (98 SE, 2000, and XP) in Mac OS X (e.g., 10.5.8 and
> >> 10.8.3)?
> > If you can save the documents as plain text documents on the original system then there is no problem. It is not the fonts (which you can forget) that you are concerned with but the obsolete character sets, ie. big5 for traditional Chinese and gb-2312 for simplified. The documents need to be converted to Unicode UTF-8.
> >
> > If you have an old text document written in big5 encoding, you can open it in TextWrangler or BBEdit specifying this encoding and it will display correctly. You can then change the encoding to UTF-8 and save it. After that it can be opened in any text editor or word processor and the (Unicode) fonts and formatting changed to what you want.
> >
> > The word processor Nisus Writer will allow you to choose the encoding of documents you open but whether it will open such documents as you are talking of and preserve formatting I rather doubt.

[Ant]

I just got this e-mail reply from Twinbridge's support:

"FYI, Chn UKai M TT is the ANSI Double-Byte None-Unicode Chinese font. 
It is very different from today’s Unicode font.  The Chn font requires
the running of TwinBridge Chinese Partner as a display engine.  The Word
file must be in None-Unicode format, example Word 97 and earlier version
running in Windows 98 and earlier version.  This is the only way to
display the None-Unicode Chinese file correctly.

We do have a tool to switch between None-Unicode and Unicode Chinese
file, it is called the Super Code Converter in the TwinBridge Chinese
Partner package.  You need to use this tool to convert your old ANSI Chinese
file to current Unicode standard file, which can be display in any Windows
and applications now..."

[Nien-Po Chen]

You may try Neo Office
<www.neooffice.org>

I find it very useful to open old excel files (in Big 5 encoding) and convert the encoding to UTF-8. You can save your files in a newer format after the conversion.

I think you can give your old WORD files a try.

Hope this may help.

[Ant]

I tried an older version of NeoOffice and Office (2008 version) on
another 2008 MacBook Pro with its Mac OS X 10.5.8 and its Chinese
inputs. They could not open it with the same results (symbols, garbages,
etc.). Same for English Office 2000 SR3 and English Debian/Linux's
LibreOffice v3.5.4.2. :(

I think I need to get that TTF font copy and/or make a virtual machine
(VM) with old software. :(

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 06:30:12PM -0700, Nien-Po Chen wrote:
> You may try Neo Office
> <www.neooffice.org>
>

> Hope this may help.
>
> On Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:44:29 AM UTC+8, Ant wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Is there a way to use old Chinese TTF files (also, where to get them?)
> from old Windows (98 SE, 2000, and XP) in Mac OS X (e.g., 10.5.8 and
> 10.8.3)? In an updated Mac OS X 10.8.3 with updated Mac Office 2011,
> it seems to have problems showing Chinese characters (none -- just
> garbled symbols and letters) in very old files (e.g., Word .doc files
> from Y2K). It seems like the fonts (e.g., Chn UKai M TT) are missing
> according to Office? I believe these fonts were from TwinBridge
> software and don't support Macs :(

--
Quote of the Week: "Even the ant has his (her) bite." --Turkish

[isjacob]

Try the ConvertZ in PC to convert the document into UTF-8.
There is a similar tool in Mac but it is not as powerful as ConvertZ.

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:44:29 AM UTC+8, Ant wrote:

[TenThousandThings]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:32:59 PM UTC-4, Ant wrote:

I think I need to get that TTF font copy and/or make a virtual machine
(VM) with old software. :(

Ant, I think this statement shows you still don't have a good conceptual grasp of the problem. Getting the original font won't solve it. You need a code conversion tool. The "CHN" designation of the TwinBridge font tells us that you have a Big5-encoded Word document. You need to convert it from Big5 to Unicode.

Several tools have been suggested. My choice for this kind of thing is Jedit X. You could even use TextEdit, which is pretty good at opening ancient Word documents. Sometimes these programs can automatically "sniff" the encoding and convert it, but in your case that does not seem to be happening, so you will have to manually tell the program what the encoding of your document is. How to do that varies from program to program, but usually you open the document and then change the encoding to Big5. This should make the text readable -- if it doesn't, try another encoding (there may be more than one choice for "Traditional Chinese" or "Big5"). Then save the document as Unicode (UTF-8, for example).

In TextEdit, I think you can set the encoding in the File > Open... dialogue, but you may have to customize the encodings list to get to the right one.

Eric

[Ant]

What's the latest version? 8.0.2 from
http://www.bumpersoft.com/Education-and-Science/Languages/ConvertZ-12649.htm
?

[Phillip Pi]

For kicks, I fiddled with this Windows tool but it looks like my
documents are unsupported if I am using it correctly?
http://i.imgur.com/g1I3GPg.gif for a screen shot/capture. I used an
updated Windows XP Pro. SP3 VM.

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 06:47:53AM -0700, Ant wrote:

> What's the latest version? 8.0.2 from
> http://www.bumpersoft.com/Education-and-Science/Languages/ConvertZ-12649.htm
> ?
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 01:26:11AM -0700, isjacob wrote:
>
> > Try the ConvertZ in PC to convert the document into UTF-8.
> > There is a similar tool in Mac but it is not as powerful as ConvertZ.
> >
> > On Sunday, March 24, 2013 5:44:29 AM UTC+8, Ant wrote:
> >
> > Is there a way to use old Chinese TTF files (also, where to get them?)
> > from old Windows (98 SE, 2000, and XP) in Mac OS X (e.g., 10.5.8 and
> > 10.8.3)? In an updated Mac OS X 10.8.3 with updated Mac Office 2011,
> > it seems to have problems showing Chinese characters (none -- just
> > garbled symbols and letters) in very old files (e.g., Word .doc files
> > from Y2K). It seems like the fonts (e.g., Chn UKai M TT) are missing
> > according to Office? I believe these fonts were from TwinBridge
> > software and don't support Macs :(

--
Quote of the Week: "Even the ant has his (her) bite." --Turkish

/\___/\ Phil./Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)

[Ant]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 04:21:33AM -0700, TenThousandThings wrote:
>
> Ant, I think this statement shows you still don't have a good conceptual
> grasp of the problem. Getting the original font won't solve it. You need a
> code conversion tool. The "CHN" designation of the TwinBridge font tells
> us that you have a Big5-encoded Word document. You need to convert it from
> Big5 to Unicode.

Ah OK.

> Several tools have been suggested. My choice for this kind of thing is
> Jedit X. You could even use TextEdit, which is pretty good at opening
> ancient Word documents. Sometimes these programs can automatically "sniff"
> the encoding and convert it, but in your case that does not seem to be
> happening, so you will have to manually tell the program what the encoding
> of your document is. How to do that varies from program to program, but
> usually you open the document and then change the encoding to Big5. This
> should make the text readable -- if it doesn't, try another encoding
> (there may be more than one choice for "Traditional Chinese" or "Big5").
> Then save the document as Unicode (UTF-8, for example).
> In TextEdit, I think you can set the encoding in the File > Open...
> dialogue, but you may have to customize the encodings list to get to the
> right one.

I tried TextEdit (e.g., detected *.doc as Word 97) in updated Mac OS X
10.7.5 and 10.8.3 on two Macs at work, but none of the encoding worked.
I tried all the default ones and Chinese ones (defaults and added from
custom list). I also tried Jedit X r2.3.6, and it was the same results
too.

I forgot to mention that these documents have both English and Chinese
together in them. I did notice something else. I do see Chinese
characters in the last three lines of the document (didn't scroll to the
bottom in the past) in updated Office Mac 2011's Word, TextEdit, etc.

I wonder if these files are partially corrupted. I still need to find
the original softwares and try in old Windows in a VM to see if they
can even read them correctly. :(

--
Quote of the Week: "Even the ant has his (her) bite." --Turkish

/\___/\ Phil./Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)

[Ant]

> > Several tools have been suggested. My choice for this kind of thing is
> > Jedit X. You could even use TextEdit, which is pretty good at opening
> > ancient Word documents. Sometimes these programs can automatically "sniff"
> > the encoding and convert it, but in your case that does not seem to be
> > happening, so you will have to manually tell the program what the encoding
> > of your document is. How to do that varies from program to program, but
> > usually you open the document and then change the encoding to Big5. This
> > should make the text readable -- if it doesn't, try another encoding
> > (there may be more than one choice for "Traditional Chinese" or "Big5").
> > Then save the document as Unicode (UTF-8, for example).
> > In TextEdit, I think you can set the encoding in the File > Open...
> > dialogue, but you may have to customize the encodings list to get to the
> > right one.
>
> I tried TextEdit (e.g., detected *.doc as Word 97) in updated Mac OS X
> 10.7.5 and 10.8.3 on two Macs at work, but none of the encoding worked.
> I tried all the default ones and Chinese ones (defaults and added from
> custom list). I also tried Jedit X r2.3.6, and it was the same results
> too.
>
> I forgot to mention that these documents have both English and Chinese
> together in them. I did notice something else. I do see Chinese
> characters in the last three lines of the document (didn't scroll to the
> bottom in the past) in updated Office Mac 2011's Word, TextEdit, etc.

Interesting. On my office's 64-bit W7 EE machine with Office 2010 Pro.
Plus, it also show the same last three lines in Chinese characters with
everything else in garbages and a few English words.

[Eric Rasmussen]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Ant <a...@zimage.com> wrote:
>> I forgot to mention that these documents have both English and Chinese
>> together in them. I did notice something else. I do see Chinese
>> characters in the last three lines of the document (didn't scroll to the
>> bottom in the past) in updated Office Mac 2011's Word, TextEdit, etc.
>
> Interesting. On my office's 64-bit W7 EE machine with Office 2010 Pro.
> Plus, it also show the same last three lines in Chinese characters with
> everything else in garbages and a few English words.

Is the Chinese text readable, and not gibberish?

[Ant]

Only the last three lines at the bottom of the document. Everything else
is gibberish or in readable English.

--
Quote of the Week: "Even the ant has his (her) bite." --Turkish

/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)

[Eric Rasmussen]

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Ant <a...@zimage.com> wrote:
>> Is the Chinese text readable, and not gibberish?
>
> Only the last three lines at the bottom of the document. Everything else
> is gibberish or in readable English.

Just to confirm -- the Chinese text is a sentence or something that
makes sense -- it's not random Chinese characters, right?

If so, that's a problem. Without seeing the actual file, it's hard to
comment further. The fact they are Word files complicates things.
Probably the virtual machine is the best approach -- do you have a
clear idea of what system and what version of MS Office was used to
create the documents?

Eric

[Ant]

> >> Is the Chinese text readable, and not gibberish?
> >
> > Only the last three lines at the bottom of the document. Everything else
> > is gibberish or in readable English.
>
> Just to confirm -- the Chinese text is a sentence or something that
> makes sense -- it's not random Chinese characters, right?

Hmm, good point. I will have to ask my Chinese client about that.

> If so, that's a problem. Without seeing the actual file, it's hard to
> comment further. The fact they are Word files complicates things.
> Probably the virtual machine is the best approach -- do you have a
> clear idea of what system and what version of MS Office was used to
> create the documents?

He used English Windows (98 SE, 2K, and XP Media Center 2005/Pro.) with
TwinBridge and Office (2000, 2002, and 2003 -- each version matched
the old OSes in order (e.g., 2000 on 98 SE).

--
Quote of the Week: "Even the ant has his (her) bite." --Turkish

/\___/\ Phil./Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)

[Ant]

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 02:51:43PM -0700, Ant wrote:

> > >> Is the Chinese text readable, and not gibberish?
> > >
> > > Only the last three lines at the bottom of the document. Everything else
> > > is gibberish or in readable English.
> >
> > Just to confirm -- the Chinese text is a sentence or something that
> > makes sense -- it's not random Chinese characters, right?
>
> Hmm, good point. I will have to ask my Chinese client about that.

My client said those last three rows of Chinese characters make sense
and not random.

[Eric Rasmussen]

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Ant <a...@zimage.com> wrote:
>> > > Only the last three lines at the bottom of the document. Everything else
>> > > is gibberish or in readable English.
>> >
>> > Just to confirm -- the Chinese text is a sentence or something that
>> > makes sense -- it's not random Chinese characters, right?
>

> My client said those last three rows of Chinese characters make sense
> and not random.

Okay, well then I think the best approach is what you've said, set up
a virtual machine. Not sure if you'll actually need TwinBridge, but
given how screwy the document is, I'm going to guess that you will
need it.

Let us know what happens.

Eric

[Ant]

Woohoo! Mostly success even though tedious and complex with TwinBridge's
e-mailed support instructions.

I used an updated Windows 98 SE (Internet Explorer v6) with updated
Office 2000 SR3 and TwinBridge CJK Partner v4.98 installed on a machine.
I used its Super Code Converter v5.0 -- 0630.98.

I tried the internal code defaults with saved .rtf (no doc supported?)
files. They seems to work even though the bottom lines/rows were
unreadable (not English and Chinese at all) on an old Mac OS X 10.5.8's
Mac Office 2008 (did not check the newer versions yet, but should
work?). My client said the document was mostly readable except the
bottom lines/rows. It wasn't perfect, but better than nothing!

I really wished there was Mac OS X converter to skip using Windows part.
Another reason to keep old softwares even if in virtual machines (VMs).
:(

Did anyone else have to go through with TwinBridge's Windows to Mac with
Chinese documents? :O I also found out he has an older HDD with Chinese
Windows 3.x! Yikes. I might have to deal with it in the future if he
needs those even older documents! Sheesh. :O

--
Jesus lives again! :)
/\___/\ Phil./Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)