ComEd At It AGAIN!
Bloody Viking
As I type this, I'm enduring yet another blackout, with computer running on
battery power. Good thing I have about a "full tank of gas" showing on my gas
gauge voltmeter. Fucking idiots at ComEd.
It sure would be nice to have reliable power instead of having to
blackout-proof your place. But that's asking too much I suppose. If I was a
homeowner, I'd have a generator or two up and running instead of messing with
UPSes and batteries as I do now.
But in the mean time, until ComEd ever gets its act together, there will
always be the need to be able to go on ship's power when shore power fails.
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
Lokari
>As I type this, I'm enduring yet another blackout, with computer running on
>battery power. Good thing I have about a "full tank of gas" showing on my gas
>gauge voltmeter. Fucking idiots at ComEd.
Do you know what the cause of this blackout was? If it's an actual
ComEd failure, that's one thing, but if it's because someone smashed
their car into a pole, that's quite another.
--
www.enteract.com/~lokari
"No one of consequence"
gigawatt
Bloody Viking...
> It sure would be nice to have reliable power instead of having to
> blackout-proof your place. But that's asking too much I suppose. If I was
a
> homeowner, I'd have a generator or two up and running instead of messing
with
> UPSes and batteries as I do now.
>
> But in the mean time, until ComEd ever gets its act together, there will
> always be the need to be able to go on ship's power when shore power
fails.
> majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
My daughter and her husband live in the Texas Valley... and they had
a rain the day before yesterday... it wan't a violent rain storm, just some
rain... and it knocked power off for her house and other locations.... and
the power was off for almost a full 24 hours, and didn't get back on until
yesterday morning.... My daughter and her family were to the point of
going to a motel, rather than endure another night of darkness...
She wants to set up her house similar to mine, so that her family is less
dependent on grid power during emergencies... that area of Texas can
be hit by severe hurricanes...and other violent storms...and on occasion,
severe power outages have become a way of life down there...
Anyway... the point of this missive, is not to beat up on Central Power
and Light (CPL)... but... that such a small rain storm caused power
outages that were almost 24 hours in duration... I only wonder if a
larger storm would cause some serious damage to an already over-
loaded grid system...
Gig
wmbjk
"gigawatt" <giga...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:164553D32EBE5FD6.2508EA19...@lp.airnews.net...
>
> My daughter and her husband live in the Texas Valley... and they had
> a rain the day before yesterday... it wan't a violent rain storm, just
some
> rain... and it knocked power off for her house and other locations.... and
> the power was off for almost a full 24 hours, and didn't get back on until
> yesterday morning.... My daughter and her family were to the point of
> going to a motel, rather than endure another night of darkness...
>
> She wants to set up her house similar to mine, so that her family is less
> dependent on grid power during emergencies... that area of Texas can
> be hit by severe hurricanes...and other violent storms...and on occasion,
> severe power outages have become a way of life down there...
>
> Anyway... the point of this missive, is not to beat up on Central Power
> and Light (CPL)... but... that such a small rain storm caused power
> outages that were almost 24 hours in duration... I only wonder if a
> larger storm would cause some serious damage to an already over-
> loaded grid system...
>
> Gig
>
Here's a story about a beaver taking out the grid.
Alberton, PEI - A beaver's busy teeth plunged a large part of Prince Edward
Island into darkness Friday.
The resourceful rodent put the lights out in the western part of Prince
County for 6,500 Maritime Electric customers by dropping a tree on the main
transmission line. The incident occurred in a swamp about 100 kilometres
northwest of Charlottetown.
The power outage lasted from 3 a.m. to 7 a.m., causing the local school
board to delay classes by one hour.
Angus Orford, the utility's public relations officer, said "a very
industrious, diligent beaver" brought down a tree with a 20-centimetre
diameter.
He said it took crews some time to find the cause of the outage but once
they did, it was a simple matter of sawing away at the downed tree with
chainsaws.
Wayne
Bloody Viking
Lokari (lok...@mediaone.net) wrote:
: Do you know what the cause of this blackout was? If it's an actual
: ComEd failure, that's one thing, but if it's because someone smashed
: their car into a pole, that's quite another.
It was a half-hour nuisance blackout, the type of blackout I built my
machinery for. I posted during the blackout! And of course I'm charging
batteries back up... for the NEXT nuisance blackout. Kind of funny to wake up
to a blackout... with fan running anyways.
And I intentionally put together a machine that serves as a blackout-proof
alarm clock. That's what car inverters and small lead batteries are for.
Bloody Viking
gigawatt (giga...@nospam.com) wrote:
: My daughter and her husband live in the Texas Valley... and they had
: a rain the day before yesterday... it wan't a violent rain storm, just some
: rain... and it knocked power off for her house and other locations.... and
: the power was off for almost a full 24 hours, and didn't get back on until
: yesterday morning.... My daughter and her family were to the point of
: going to a motel, rather than endure another night of darkness...
There was no storm to cause the half-hour nuisance blackout. It's just
classical ComEd. But I weathered it just great. It was just enough to test my
machinery, which ran just fine. I posted during the blackout!
: She wants to set up her house similar to mine, so that her family is less
: dependent on grid power during emergencies... that area of Texas can
: be hit by severe hurricanes...and other violent storms...and on occasion,
: severe power outages have become a way of life down there...
One thing's for sure. I'm a homepower addict. Even if I moved to a
neighbourhood without the blackouts, I'd end up being about as ready as an
apartment dweller can get.
: Anyway... the point of this missive, is not to beat up on Central Power
: and Light (CPL)... but... that such a small rain storm caused power
: outages that were almost 24 hours in duration... I only wonder if a
: larger storm would cause some serious damage to an already over-
: loaded grid system...
I'm sure that as time goes by, things in general will get worse with the grid
being overloaded. I might well be one of the pioneers among apartment dwellers
and homepower. I know I was one of the first UPSers who went public about it
on the net. I think it was my adventures in homepower that gave you the idea.
I got into it from my time in the Navy, with having operated powerplant
equipment and learning about subs too. The Navy is a practitioner of
"homepower" on a larger scale than normal homepower.
Still, it's always nicer to be on "ship's power" at home than be with _no_
power at all. You use "shore power" to charge batteries for the next blackout!
ComEd's slogan should be "What do you do during your blackouts?". ANSWER: I
post to the net anyways!
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
gigawatt
> County for 6,500 Maritime Electric customers by dropping a tree on the
main
> transmission line. The incident occurred in a swamp about 100 kilometres
> northwest of Charlottetown.
>
> The power outage lasted from 3 a.m. to 7 a.m., causing the local school
> board to delay classes by one hour.
>
> Angus Orford, the utility's public relations officer, said "a very
> industrious, diligent beaver" brought down a tree with a 20-centimetre
> diameter.
>
> He said it took crews some time to find the cause of the outage but once
> they did, it was a simple matter of sawing away at the downed tree with
> chainsaws.
Nice story Wayne... and as the grid grows into a more complex
network... I think most all the people on the grid will be a little
vunerable to random blackouts....
Gig
John Hines
>And I intentionally put together a machine that serves as a blackout-proof
>alarm clock. That's what car inverters and small lead batteries are for.
Technology will be you're downfall.
I got tired of resetting the clocks, and got a rooster. Problem solved,
and I don't even have to adjust for the DST. :)
gigawatt
> I got into it from my time in the Navy, with having operated powerplant
> equipment and learning about subs too. The Navy is a practitioner of
> "homepower" on a larger scale than normal homepower.
I had you in mind when I set up my Solar and Independent Living
web page logo.... that one apartment that still has lights, on in the Logo
Image, is your apartment.. :-D
http://geocities.com/solarliving
Gig
Bloody Viking
gigawatt (giga...@nospam.com) wrote:
: Nice story Wayne... and as the grid grows into a more complex
: network... I think most all the people on the grid will be a little
: vunerable to random blackouts....
Yeah, like Chicago and ComEd.
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
Atomic Punk
>
>As I type this, I'm enduring yet another blackout, with computer running on
>battery power. Good thing I have about a "full tank of gas" showing on my gas
>gauge voltmeter. Fucking idiots at ComEd.
>
>It sure would be nice to have reliable power instead of having to
>blackout-proof your place. But that's asking too much I suppose. If I was a
>homeowner, I'd have a generator or two up and running instead of messing with
>UPSes and batteries as I do now.
>
>But in the mean time, until ComEd ever gets its act together, there will
>always be the need to be able to go on ship's power when shore power fails.
Classic ComEd...
I was working at the Seneca plant in Belvidere IL in 1998 during that
hotter than hell summer when the power went out. Now Seneca being a
fairly large operation out there they had a means of contacting
Commonwealth to find out when the power would be restored, hundreds of
tons of bean and corn products at -30F is alot of money to loose when
the temp rises. The answer that was given is as follows:
We have diverted electric power to the Rockford and Northpark grids
because of higher than normal demands.
Lee, the guy I was working with literally exploded on the telephone to
ComEd and demanded the power be returned, ComEd refused to budge an
inch. Reason? The shitheads in that Northpark area would run the risk
of sweating slightly and making wrinkles in their silk suits and ties.
The local media had reported a transmission line failure and the
station we were listening to had said "The heat was so intense it had
made the resistance inside the transmission lines so high that power
could not pass through it" does this sound like ComEd and Illinois
propaganda? I dont remember the station but it was a talk format
All said and done the power was returned 4 hours later and we lost a
days worth of work. I made sure Seneca billed ComEd for my time
sitting idle and they did eventually pay along with the lost stock
that was nearest the walls in the frozen warehouse.
To give you and idea of the cooling in that plant
12 count 350Hp ammonia (R717) compressors
6 count 175Hp ammonia compressors
All fed at 4160 VAC and the incoming service is 33.6KV with a plant
distribution primary at 13.8Kv and 4160
Somewhere the priorities have been a little screwed up by Commonwealth
Edison... Do you see the end of the name commonWEALTH?
AP
Bloody Viking
Bloody Viking
Atomic Punk (no...@mars.com) wrote:
: I was working at the Seneca plant in Belvidere IL in 1998 during that
: hotter than hell summer when the power went out. Now Seneca being a
: fairly large operation out there they had a means of contacting
: Commonwealth to find out when the power would be restored, hundreds of
: tons of bean and corn products at -30F is alot of money to loose when
: the temp rises. The answer that was given is as follows:
: We have diverted electric power to the Rockford and Northpark grids
: because of higher than normal demands.
Can't have yuppie shitheads sweat in their business suits. It doesn't dawn on
them to wear less clothing in summer, what a concept. But then again, looks
are everything.
: made the resistance inside the transmission lines so high that power
: could not pass through it" does this sound like ComEd and Illinois
: propaganda? I dont remember the station but it was a talk format
That's a crock of shit all right. To raise resistance of wire, it would have
to be REAL hot. 100F doesn't cut it.
: All fed at 4160 VAC and the incoming service is 33.6KV with a plant
: distribution primary at 13.8Kv and 4160
Ouch. Some heavy duty juice.
: Somewhere the priorities have been a little screwed up by Commonwealth
: Edison... Do you see the end of the name commonWEALTH?
And we wouldn't have an incompetent utility to bash. And I'd hate to see the
UPS and battery pack all that refrigeration equipment would require. That
would be The Mother Of All UPSes.
Bloody Viking
gigawatt (giga...@nospam.com) wrote:
: I had you in mind when I set up my Solar and Independent Living
: web page logo.... that one apartment that still has lights, on in the Logo
: Image, is your apartment.. :-D
That's funny. You could imagine if I lived in a condo in the John Hancock
building and a blackout happened. The whole city would notice!
Bloody Viking
Bobby McGhee (spmp...@nooosapam.org) wrote:
: I used to work for an electric utility....Take my word for it when I say they
: all suck these days. None of them want to put a dime into infrastructure or
: maintenance anymore.
And it's easy to see why they spend as little as possible. After all, the
stockholders want to squeeze blood out of a turnip. With deregulation, things
can only get worse.
In the case of that large warehouse with the massive fridge, what good is
buying power from elsewhere when it still has to be sent over ComEd's lines?
ComEd's incompetence will still leave you in the dark. (unless you have a hell
of a UPS for that place!)
Big_Don
Bloody Viking wrote:
> Atomic Punk (no...@mars.com) wrote:
>
> : made the resistance inside the transmission lines so high that power
> : could not pass through it" does this sound like ComEd and Illinois
> : propaganda? I dont remember the station but it was a talk format
>
> That's a crock of shit all right. To raise resistance of wire, it would have
> to be REAL hot. 100F doesn't cut it.
There is a *real* limiting condition here with temperature.
As more current flows thru the lines, they heat up.
(It's called I-squared-R losses). These temperature
increases *combine* withh the already hot-day temperature.
Thermal expansion then lengthens the wires slightly.
It doesn't take much to cause very significant *sag*
from the extra length. At certain locations, wires can
sag too low near to obstacles which would be short
circuit or safety hazards.
This limits ability to deliver power in certain grid areas,
rather than sheer generation capacity limits at the plant(s).
Not that ComEd isn't bullshitting you in this instance.....
Big Don
No IQ-75 Megawattz ~~~!@!~~~
Maggie Newman
>
>Lee, the guy I was working with literally exploded
And they say nuclear power plants are safe...
Maggie "don't you believe it" Newman
gigawatt
>I used to work for an electric utility....Take my word for it when I say
they
>all suck these days. None of them want to put a dime into infrastructure or
>maintenance anymore.
Deregulation has done that... it is called unrecovered cost... and means
that the former 'Monopoly Regulated Utility Companies' do not want to
make major investment (often in the Multi-Billions of Dollars) to provide
their customers with better service... because of the fear that competition
will erode their profits later on...
This has led to development of a secondary power market... like UPS
systems, or home generators, and PV setups, like mine... UPS could
be used in some home and apartment enviroments... when Generators
and PV setups are not practical... but... for those people who have
available space, Generators and PV's could also make a real difference
when Grid power fails...I am mostly off the Grid... and when my power
is out... I don't even know it...
I think the future of alternative power solutions will continue to develop,
as the Grid slowly goes the way of the railroads...
Gig
...
Bloody Viking
Big_Don (big...@eskimo.com) wrote:
: As more current flows thru the lines, they heat up.
: (It's called I-squared-R losses). These temperature
: increases *combine* withh the already hot-day temperature.
I'm more than aware of I square R losses. Pretty easy to take some 24-gauge
speaker wire and make a heated suit with 70 feet of it. (been there, done
that)
: Not that ComEd isn't bullshitting you in this instance.....
And it would be wasteful (and costly) to push the wiring to the edges of its
envelope in the first place. And the day in question wasn't even the 100F. And
if I square R was the culprit, why didn't the same happen on Jul 13 1995 when
it attained 106F?
Now, consider this. You have a 70 foot length of 24 gauge copper wire hooked
to a car battery. It'll get a little warm, perfect for a heated suit. Take
that same piece of wire with the car battery attached and expose to 100F.
Nope, it doesn't suddenly melt. For copper, the coefficient of temp and
resistance change is fairly small.
Why a FUSE would be more prone to failure in heat is becuse the metal alloy is
intended to mely at like 135F, so say at 70F you pass enough current to heat
it to 105F then move the fuse to a 100F space, presto it melts, breaking the
circuit. But would ComEd REALLY be using fuses instead of breakers? Given
ComEd's incompetence, anything's possible!
Bloody Viking
gigawatt (giga...@nospam.com) wrote:
: Deregulation has done that... it is called unrecovered cost... and means
: that the former 'Monopoly Regulated Utility Companies' do not want to
: make major investment (often in the Multi-Billions of Dollars) to provide
: their customers with better service... because of the fear that competition
: will erode their profits later on...
That's the problem with the grid. Nobody wants to put a dime into upgrading
it.
: This has led to development of a secondary power market... like UPS
: systems, or home generators, and PV setups, like mine... UPS could
: be used in some home and apartment enviroments... when Generators
: and PV setups are not practical... but... for those people who have
: available space, Generators and PV's could also make a real difference
: when Grid power fails...I am mostly off the Grid... and when my power
: is out... I don't even know it...
This is exactly what is happening. You now hear radio adverts for natural gas
generators on newsreadio stations. In my case I simply got fed up and took it
upon myself to play with the UPS gear. There was no "UPS as homepower .FAQ" at
the time I started, though there were normal UPS .FAQ files for computer
people.
The generator form of secondary power is more established than UPSin', though
solar and inverters are pretty established. But a lot of the good inverters
can be used as super-UPSes. What slows down solar and UPSin' is that more
people know about generators while stuff about batteries and inverters is not
widely known by lay people. Everyone knows you can buy a generator anf get an
electrician to hook it up. Meanwhile, the paradigm for apartment and condo
dwellers is "there's nothing you can do" until I challenged it for myself. But
the technology isn't widely known about. Even a lot of computer people never
think "Hey, if I hook an external battery bank to my UPS..." like I did.
: I think the future of alternative power solutions will continue to develop,
: as the Grid slowly goes the way of the railroads...
I think so too. But someone has to be the first! I'm sure there were other
UPSers of my type, but none of them ever posted about it. But look at
alt.energy.homepower since I first started posting about UPSin'. Now, it's a
fairly common topic. When I first came to the group it was mostly about
generators, and now it's more varied. I know my adventures have turned others
on to the idea, and in your case you went further with the PV which I can't
do.
Dan
>
> Big_Dope wrote:
>
> : As more current flows thru the lines, they heat up.
> : (It's called I-squared-R losses). These temperature
> : increases *combine* withh the already hot-day temperature.
>
> I'm more than aware of I square R losses. Pretty easy to take some 24-gauge
> speaker wire and make a heated suit with 70 feet of it. (been there, done
> that)
>
> : Not that ComEd isn't bullshitting you in this instance.....
>
> And it would be wasteful (and costly) to push the wiring to the edges of its
> envelope in the first place. And the day in question wasn't even the 100F. And
> if I square R was the culprit, why didn't the same happen on Jul 13 1995 when
> it attained 106F?
>
> Now, consider this. You have a 70 foot length of 24 gauge copper wire hooked
> to a car battery. It'll get a little warm, perfect for a heated suit. Take
> that same piece of wire with the car battery attached and expose to 100F.
> Nope, it doesn't suddenly melt. For copper, the coefficient of temp and
> resistance change is fairly small.
>
> Why a FUSE would be more prone to failure in heat is becuse the metal alloy is
> intended to mely at like 135F, so say at 70F you pass enough current to heat
> it to 105F then move the fuse to a 100F space, presto it melts, breaking the
> circuit. But would ComEd REALLY be using fuses instead of breakers? Given
> ComEd's incompetence, anything's possible!
Don't bring any of your bullshit statistics on this topic in here
Big_Dope. BV will tear your ass up worse than David does.
Yur friend,
Dan
Bloody Viking
Dan (d...@mc.net) wrote:
: Don't bring any of your bullshit statistics on this topic in here
: Big_Dope. BV will tear your ass up worse than David does.
Let's see Big_Dope (aka. Big_Don) try talking about electricity in the
homepower newsgroup. Any of us here would tear his arse up.
A fun question is whether ComEd would be quite incompetent enough to use fuses
instead of breakers. Breakers are pretty well temperature-immune for our
purposes as they trip when the current in the coil has enough of an
electromagnetic effect to trip it. And as a teen I made a homebrew breaker
just for fun. It was a solenoid, a magnet on top, a nail, and the wire making
contact with another. When the current was like 3 amps, the nail would be
pulled up, stick to the magnet and current stopped. A perfect demo of a
breaker. Becuse it works on magnetism, a breaker is about temperature-immune
at normal ranges.
In the post where I corrected Big_Dope I done described fuses, which are _not_
immune to ambient temperature.
danny burstein
>Dan (d...@mc.net) wrote:
>: Don't bring any of your bullshit statistics on this topic in here
>: Big_Dope. BV will tear your ass up worse than David does.
>Let's see Big_Dope (aka. Big_Don) try talking about electricity in the
>homepower newsgroup. Any of us here would tear his arse up.
>A fun question is whether ComEd would be quite incompetent enough to use fuses
>instead of breakers. Breakers are pretty well temperature-immune for our
>purposes as they trip when the current in the coil has enough of an
>electromagnetic effect to trip it. And as a teen I made a homebrew breaker
>just for fun. It was a solenoid, a magnet on top, a nail, and the wire making
>contact with another. When the current was like 3 amps, the nail would be
>pulled up, stick to the magnet and current stopped. A perfect demo of a
>breaker. Becuse it works on magnetism, a breaker is about temperature-immune
>at normal ranges.
Not quite. Standard alternating current circuit breakers have two modes of
action. The magnetic trip you discussed is used for instant trips which
come into play if the current draw is more than ?300%? or so.
However, there's also a thermal trip. This one works by slowly
(over)heating the unit... So if you're pulling 105% of rating you may be
ok for 15 minutes, but at 125% you'll trip in five. (Note these are NOT
the actual figures)
Anyway, the thermal portion is clearly reliant, in part, on ambient
temperature. If you place the breaker in a 10F wind, it'll never heat
up... Put it in the sun in Death Valley, and you've got another think
coming.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Bloody Viking
danny burstein (dan...@panix.com) wrote:
: Not quite. Standard alternating current circuit breakers have two modes of
: action. The magnetic trip you discussed is used for instant trips which
: come into play if the current draw is more than ?300%? or so.
: However, there's also a thermal trip. This one works by slowly
: (over)heating the unit... So if you're pulling 105% of rating you may be
: ok for 15 minutes, but at 125% you'll trip in five. (Note these are NOT
: the actual figures)
: Anyway, the thermal portion is clearly reliant, in part, on ambient
: temperature. If you place the breaker in a 10F wind, it'll never heat
: up... Put it in the sun in Death Valley, and you've got another think
: coming.
Oh, yeah, the old bimetallic strip trick like a thermostat. So a thermal
"slo-blo" breaker has the same problem as a fuse. Now, to settle the question,
we need to find out which type of breakers ComEd uses. All the evidence we
have is their word about a 90F day and a past event without the same problem
at 106F. In both cases, the load would be about the same with everyone running
the A/C at full blast. Actually the load would be more on the hotter day
becuse all the A/C compressors are working harder against the higher high-side
freon pressure.
In the application of outdoor equipment in a vildly varying temp climate,
having thermal breakers designed to hold the load at 100F could allow an
overload (say a shorted transformer or two) and damage the system. Designing
for cold leaves you with premature tripping in the heat. Also, becuse in a
large system like a power company, the load will be real steady without surges
except for lightning, transformer explosions, etc. It's most likely that they
use the magnetic "fast-blo" type breakers. This explains how the grid can be
fully loaded in summer, no massive load drops in winter from mishaps
overloading the system, and lightning causing the blackouts.
But no matter what breakers they use, the grid still needs upgrading. As more
people live in the area, you need for the grid to be upgraded. Instead ComEd
took the cheap route of dispaching trucks to reset breakers.
idunno
thing or another? Or maybe one thing AND another?
idunno
in breakers or fuses?
...idunno if Bloody Viking sees the glass as half empty but
for an astute investor it could be half full
Bloody Viking
idunno (idu...@NOSPAM4ME.TrollAlert.com) wrote:
: If the pole were struck by a ComEd service truck, would that be one
: thing or another? Or maybe one thing AND another?
ComEd could in that case simply be showing incompetence with safety training
programmes for its drivers. OSHA would have fun with an accident like this,
and it would end up finding its way to the media.
No reason to think they would be competent with trucker safety with the lousy
track record of nuke safety... and blackouts for no reason.
ComEd: The utility that's always fun to bash...
Chicago Paddling-Fishing
: As I type this, I'm enduring yet another blackout, with computer running on
: battery power. Good thing I have about a "full tank of gas" showing on my gas
: gauge voltmeter. Fucking idiots at ComEd.
<snip>
Well, our UPS kicked in but it was a bit too windy to hurry up and put up
my windmill pole (I keep it down normally...) but we only had a short
outtage.
--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)
John Hines
>So considering the coming effects of global warming, should I buy stock
>in breakers or fuses?
Yes. :)
> ...idunno if Bloody Viking sees the glass as half empty but
> for an astute investor it could be half full
Electronic component parts is really a hot area right now. As much as
50 week lead times on some things as capacitors and resistors. They
don't care who wins the high-tech wars, their parts go into everyones
stuff.
We (the world) are not going to use less energy any time soon.
John Hines
>But no matter what breakers they use, the grid still needs upgrading. As more
>people live in the area, you need for the grid to be upgraded. Instead ComEd
>took the cheap route of dispaching trucks to reset breakers.
ComEd replaced a high tension line out west, one that runs along I-355,
connecting their substation at Roosevelt rd & I-355 to their main
complex along swift rd (between St Charles and North).
Replaced the old "erector set" towers with new ones, and a doubled
(twisted) wires.
That is in the last year, so they are upgrading things. The expansion
and upgrade work is done by contractors, Com Ed itself only does repairs
and small jobs.
Circuit breakers are only practical in a controlled environment, such as
a sub-station. Hi voltage and current breakers require maintenance and
attention. A fuse can work un-maintained for decades.
Lokari
>: Do you know what the cause of this blackout was? If it's an actual
>: ComEd failure, that's one thing, but if it's because someone smashed
>: their car into a pole, that's quite another.
>It was a half-hour nuisance blackout, the type of blackout I built my
>machinery for. I posted during the blackout! And of course I'm charging
>batteries back up... for the NEXT nuisance blackout. Kind of funny to wake up
>to a blackout... with fan running anyways.
>And I intentionally put together a machine that serves as a blackout-proof
>alarm clock. That's what car inverters and small lead batteries are for.
Ummm, ok. Not an answer to my question, but, ummm, ok.
--
www.enteract.com/~lokari
"No one of consequence"
Bloody Viking
Chicago Paddling-Fishing (j...@ripco.com) wrote:
: Well, our UPS kicked in but it was a bit too windy to hurry up and put up
: my windmill pole (I keep it down normally...) but we only had a short
: outtage.
Would be nice to be a homeowner to mount a windmill on top of the home like a
TV antenna. It'll work best in the same storm that causes the blackout! Of
course suburban zoning might prohibit windmills...
Dan
>
> So considering the coming effects of global warming, should I buy stock
> in breakers or fuses?
>
Idunno
Arargh!
wrote:
>nos...@ripco.com (Bloody Viking) wrote:
<snip>
>Circuit breakers are only practical in a controlled environment, such as
>a sub-station. Hi voltage and current breakers require maintenance and
>attention. A fuse can work un-maintained for decades.
Until, in the middle of winter, a squirrel gets cold, hops on the
transformer to get warm, and shorts out the wires. Bang. No more
fuse.
(true story)
--
arargh (at enteract period com) http://www.arargh.com
(Reply address points nowhere in an attempt to foil e-mail spammers.)
Dusty Rhodes
news:bsutrs43gekdb9t1g...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:41:29 -0500, John Hines <jbh...@newsguy.com>
> wrote:
>
> >nos...@ripco.com (Bloody Viking) wrote:
> <snip>
> >Circuit breakers are only practical in a controlled environment, such as
> >a sub-station. Hi voltage and current breakers require maintenance and
> >attention. A fuse can work un-maintained for decades.
> Until, in the middle of winter, a squirrel gets cold, hops on the
> transformer to get warm, and shorts out the wires. Bang. No more
> fuse.
> (true story)
We get squirrels blowing plain old line fuses all the time down here in the
heart of Texas. Damned inconvenient when it happens on a 112 degree day like
it did last Monday just after sunset.
Apparently the fuse didn't blow quite quick enough. It started a cascade
that ended up taking down a fairly large transformer by UT campus, taking
down a fair sized chunk of central Austin.
Turns out *that* transformer was the backup. Took 'em more than 3 hours to
bring in and install a new one.
Turned out OK. A lot of my neighbors left their homes and gathered up at the
corner hub of the hood, some of them for the first time in years. The stores
and restaurants were closed, but the employees were with us, so we had the
keys.
We played silly drink or dare games for hours, which, lemme tell ya, is a
great way to spend a 100 degree night in a neighborhood full of lovely
co-eds. <tee-hee>
Cheers,
Dusty
idunno
>
> ComEd's incompetence will still leave you in the dark. (unless you have a hell
> of a UPS for that place!)
Hey, is it true that out of concern for bicyclists' safety ComEd is
powering some blinking yellow lights from your UPS (surreptitiously
wired when you were away)?
Arargh!
<te...@CANSPAMtexas.net> wrote:
<snip>
>We get squirrels blowing plain old line fuses all the time down here in the
>heart of Texas. Damned inconvenient when it happens on a 112 degree day like
>it did last Monday just after sunset.
I would think that the transformer mfg's would change the spacing on
the terminals so that small critters could not bridge the gap. But
that requires the ability think, and would probably cost 5 or 10 cents
more each.
>Apparently the fuse didn't blow quite quick enough. It started a cascade
>that ended up taking down a fairly large transformer by UT campus, taking
>down a fair sized chunk of central Austin.
>
>Turns out *that* transformer was the backup. Took 'em more than 3 hours to
>bring in and install a new one.
Probably faster than comed could do it.
>Turned out OK. A lot of my neighbors left their homes and gathered up at the
>corner hub of the hood, some of them for the first time in years. The stores
>and restaurants were closed, but the employees were with us, so we had the
>keys.
>
>We played silly drink or dare games for hours, which, lemme tell ya, is a
>great way to spend a 100 degree night in a neighborhood full of lovely
>co-eds. <tee-hee>
Sounds as if it may have been fun.
Arargh!
wrote:
<snip>
>Said fuse worked, and did its job. I don't think that a breaker,
Never said it didn't. Just annoyed at the stupid squirrel.
>exposed to the elements for decades, would work. Given the same case, a
>breaker would have popped also.
Maybe. Considering that that fuse was in place for 10-20 years, I
might expect that a breakers contacts might have welded together in
that time.
>Breakers are mechanical devices, they need periodic usage to keep from
>rusting up, that is the hard part.
>
>Mechanical devices, placed outside, on top of poles and along wires, all
>over creation, exposed to the elements, is not my idea of a reliability
>enhancement.
Depends. Properly built, encased, and maintained there should not be
a problem. But that would cost too much.
Arargh!
<nos...@spamsucks.org> wrote:
>On 12 Sep 2000 03:26:31 GMT, nos...@ripco.com (Bloody Viking) wrote:
>
>> Now, to settle the question,
>>we need to find out which type of breakers ComEd uses.
>
>The kind that are used in substations are two part affairs.
<snip>
>Any more questions, please ask!
I assume that this description for 10 or 20kv + circuits ?
It might be nice if there were a backup fuse somewhere along the way.
Electronic sensors have been known to get sick or fail.
Arargh!
<nos...@spamsucks.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:37:03 -0500, Arargh! <Inval...@arargh.com> wrote:
>
>>I assume that this description for 10 or 20kv + circuits ?
>
>Yes, even many 14.4 KV and up distribution circuits use some sort of
>electronically controlled breaker today.
>Yes, there are backup fuses on llocal distribution lines, you can see them on
>top of the poles, usually nearby a transformer (pole pig). Look for long
>tubular objects about 2" in diameter and maybe a foot long.
That is what the squirrel zapped.
>No, fuses are almost never used on the higher voltage circuits, 30 KV and up.
>Because when they blow, an arc from one end to the other would happen,
>endangering life and property. We're talking a large flame on the pole!
>With the conduction through the arc, the circuit never really opens until the
>fire goes out.
The flame I knew about. I was just thinking that with the breaker in
an oil bath, you could also include a fuse, say at 10% over, in the
same bath.
<snip>
John Hines
>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:41:29 -0500, John Hines <jbh...@newsguy.com>
>wrote:
>
>>nos...@ripco.com (Bloody Viking) wrote:
><snip>
>>Circuit breakers are only practical in a controlled environment, such as
>>a sub-station. Hi voltage and current breakers require maintenance and
>>attention. A fuse can work un-maintained for decades.
>Until, in the middle of winter, a squirrel gets cold, hops on the
>transformer to get warm, and shorts out the wires. Bang. No more
>fuse.
>(true story)
Said fuse worked, and did its job. I don't think that a breaker,
exposed to the elements for decades, would work. Given the same case, a
breaker would have popped also.
Breakers are mechanical devices, they need periodic usage to keep from
Jerome Jahnke
>
> In the spring, buzzards like to roost on top of the transmission towers. I
> guess they like it because of the great view, and because they can take off
> by just jumping (very little effort). With certain transmission structures,
> the buzzards' wingspan is enough to reach between two phases and
> Bzzzztt...there is nothing left but a few feathers and the transmission line
> is locked out.
This used to be a REAL problem in Arizona, the Harris Hawks were getting
killed left and right by these powerlines. Eventually some laws forced
them to move the lines greater than 6 feet from each other on the
stuctures which cut down the number of Harris Hawk deaths considerably.
Jer,
BEECEM
In the late summer it is common for squirrels to start squirrelling <grin>
away nuts for the winter. They will climb all over the power lines,
substations and other equipment. Often they are the cause for small scale
outages (a few houses coming from a single pole-mounted transformer) or a
whole circuit (when they get into the substation). The last squirrel call I
saw, I got to the scene and the local small town police had "confiscated"
the fried critter. The only thing we saw was a large black, greasy spot
(about 6 inches in diameter) on the top of the pole.
In the spring, buzzards like to roost on top of the transmission towers. I
guess they like it because of the great view, and because they can take off
by just jumping (very little effort). With certain transmission structures,
the buzzards' wingspan is enough to reach between two phases and
Bzzzztt...there is nothing left but a few feathers and the transmission line
is locked out.
Bill.
wmbjk wrote in message ...
>
>"gigawatt" <giga...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:164553D32EBE5FD6.2508EA19...@lp.airnews.net...
>>
>> My daughter and her husband live in the Texas Valley... and they had
>> a rain the day before yesterday... it wan't a violent rain storm, just
>some
>> rain... and it knocked power off for her house and other locations....
and
>> the power was off for almost a full 24 hours, and didn't get back on
until
>> yesterday morning.... My daughter and her family were to the point of
>> going to a motel, rather than endure another night of darkness...
>>
>> She wants to set up her house similar to mine, so that her family is less
>> dependent on grid power during emergencies... that area of Texas can
>> be hit by severe hurricanes...and other violent storms...and on occasion,
>> severe power outages have become a way of life down there...
>>
>> Anyway... the point of this missive, is not to beat up on Central Power
>> and Light (CPL)... but... that such a small rain storm caused power
>> outages that were almost 24 hours in duration... I only wonder if a
>> larger storm would cause some serious damage to an already over-
>> loaded grid system...
>>
>> Gig
>>
>
>
>Here's a story about a beaver taking out the grid.
>
>Alberton, PEI - A beaver's busy teeth plunged a large part of Prince Edward
>Island into darkness Friday.
>
>The resourceful rodent put the lights out in the western part of Prince
>County for 6,500 Maritime Electric customers by dropping a tree on the main
>transmission line. The incident occurred in a swamp about 100 kilometres
>northwest of Charlottetown.
>
>The power outage lasted from 3 a.m. to 7 a.m., causing the local school
>board to delay classes by one hour.
>
>Angus Orford, the utility's public relations officer, said "a very
>industrious, diligent beaver" brought down a tree with a 20-centimetre
>diameter.
>
>He said it took crews some time to find the cause of the outage but once
>they did, it was a simple matter of sawing away at the downed tree with
>chainsaws.
>
>
>Wayne
>
>
Dan
>
> Two more animals to worry about:
> In the late summer it is common for squirrels to start squirrelling <grin>
> away nuts for the winter. They will climb all over the power lines,
> substations and other equipment. Often they are the cause for small scale
> outages (a few houses coming from a single pole-mounted transformer) or a
> whole circuit (when they get into the substation). The last squirrel call I
> saw, I got to the scene and the local small town police had "confiscated"
> the fried critter. The only thing we saw was a large black, greasy spot
> (about 6 inches in diameter) on the top of the pole.
Somebody go bail Pete out of jail.
This guy ain't seen his squirrel.
Dan