u of c image change: night life coming to hyde park?
gil b643
a "fun" place in order to compete for a diminishing pool of students.
as i understand, the university of chicago has been instrumental in
keeping bars, and other night spots out of hyde park. i wonder if the
new initiative will be to get night spots into hyde park. if liquor
licence laws are changed then it would be a sure sign that such is the
plan.
one thing that i didnt' get was the marketing plan to change the
sobriquet associated with the university based upon the belief that
"university of chicago" sounds too much like the name of a public
university. the plan is to colloquially call it "chicago" because
all of the other top tier institutions have a single name
nickname (e.g. harvard, yale, berkeley, &c.).
my first observation is that the people at the university of chicago
apparently haven't heard of the massachusetts institute of technology
which goes by the sobriquet "m.i.t.", which i think is sort of a
'top tier' school.
my second observation is that to call the school "chicago" makes it
seem *more* like a public institution. the single name private
instutions tend to be named after people: harvard, yale, stanford,
&c, not after the city in which the institution is located (granted
the mailing address for stanford university is stanford, california
but the place was a horse farm owned by leland stanford, and he put
a school there and named it after his adopted son after he died).
berkeley is a public institution, so following that naming convention
"chicago" would suggest the university of illinois at chicago, it
would not suggest the name of a private university.
as i understand, the university of chicago is planning to hire a
marketing person to work the school's image...maybe they could get
one of their business school faculty members to do it.
anyway, back to the night life/hyde park theme. i've personally got
somewhat mixed feelings about this. one of the things that i liked
about hyde park when i lived there was that there *wasn't* a lot of
action there, it is a fairly quiet place. it's nice to have action
in the area - places like lincoln park, &c., but i wouldn't want to
*live* in the middle of a lot of action, and have people stumbling
out of the bars and urinating in your yard. more night life would
bring a better variety of restaurants to the area, along with other
businesses which would be good for the area, though. this would
work well with the renovation currently going on in the north kenwood
area.
--
__ ______ __ / __/ |
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/ .
nothing ever happens to us except what happens in our own minds.
-eleanor roosevelt
Jerome Jahnke
<ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> i guess university of chicago is trying to change its image to being
> a "fun" place in order to compete for a diminishing pool of students.
> as i understand, the university of chicago has been instrumental in
> keeping bars, and other night spots out of hyde park. i wonder if the
> new initiative will be to get night spots into hyde park. if liquor
> licence laws are changed then it would be a sure sign that such is the
> plan.
The article was a bit odd, what they are trying to do is attract more
undergrads, which in turn will beef up the bottom line, dunno if the U of
C needs it, but if they have had a flat profit curve I guess putting a bit
of bounce into it won't hurt. Personally I am for the idea if they
continue to provide a good education to the incoming undergrads, if they
just wanna pimp the name of the school off to pass off a bad "product" I
am against it, kinda hard to win back a repuation.
> one thing that i didnt' get was the marketing plan to change the
> sobriquet associated with the university based upon the belief that
> "university of chicago" sounds too much like the name of a public
> university. the plan is to colloquially call it "chicago" because
> all of the other top tier institutions have a single name
> nickname (e.g. harvard, yale, berkeley, &c.).
Yea, I thought that was odd too, apparently there are folks sitting in
offices at the U of C with WAAAAAYYYYY too much time on their hands.
Personally anyone who knows what the U of C means is worth talking to
aboutit. Given the only place U of C has been confused with in my mind has
been California who all call them UC, I don't see it as a big problem. The
idea that you can reduce it to the name of a huge city like Chicago is,
well batty, when people ask you where you went to school Chicago will
always mean one of quite a few schools no matter how much money they sink
down the Chicago rathole. Why not call it "Hyde Park?"
> anyway, back to the night life/hyde park theme. i've personally got
> somewhat mixed feelings about this. one of the things that i liked
> about hyde park when i lived there was that there *wasn't* a lot of
> action there, it is a fairly quiet place. it's nice to have action
> in the area - places like lincoln park, &c., but i wouldn't want to
> *live* in the middle of a lot of action, and have people stumbling
> out of the bars and urinating in your yard. more night life would
> bring a better variety of restaurants to the area, along with other
> businesses which would be good for the area, though. this would
> work well with the renovation currently going on in the north kenwood
> area.
I guess I could go either way on this issue, lots of people feel that
living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance. Personally I don't get
out much, but when I do, there isn't a hell of a lot to do here. I dunno I
am more worried that they aer messing with the underlying cirriculum which
really isn't something you take as lightly as they seem to be.
Jer,
pot@o
>apparently haven't heard of the massachusetts institute of technology
>which goes by the sobriquet "m.i.t.", which i think is sort of a
>'top tier' school.
sure they have. they just won't admit it! ;)
>my second observation is that to call the school "chicago" makes it
>seem *more* like a public institution. the single name private
oh come on now. unbelievably, people in the real world recognize the
chicago name (at least, those that you'd *want* to recognize it, i.e.
prospective employers).
>businesses which would be good for the area, though. this would
>work well with the renovation currently going on in the north kenwood
>area.
pray tell, what renovation? i remember some condominium activity ...
d
--
===============================================================================
//a n d r e a s . r i n g s t a d//
===============================================================================
pot@o
Jerome Jahnke <j-ja...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <36B53F49...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
><ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>
>living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance. Personally I don't get
>out much, but when I do, there isn't a hell of a lot to do here. I dunno I
>am more worried that they aer messing with the underlying cirriculum which
>really isn't something you take as lightly as they seem to be.
i'd like to add this bit of info:
amidst the uproar over changing/debasing the core and thereby 'selling
out' the university, no one has bothered to note that economic
considerations played a role in establishing the core curriculum. I quote
from "The Crisis of Democratic Theory" by E. Purcell (Kentucky: 1973):
"As a university president [Robert Maynard Hutchins, remembered popularly
as the father of the core] was responsible for securing the money to
support Chicago's educational program. By 1932 the depression was
beginning to cramp such fund-raising severely. In response to the
financial difficulties he argued that the schools, whose main purpose was
the advancement of knowledge, could save needed revenue by streamlining
their curricula and abandoning the 'nursing function' they had developed.
He suggested pruning practical and vocational training from the university
and leaving only the strictly 'intellectual' subjects such as the
humanities and 'pure' science. The difficulty of soliciting funds led
Hutchins in another more important direction. If the universities were to
get the money they needed, he decided, they must have a clearer idea of
their purpose and a rational defense of their activities. The average
person did not even understand what a college or university was ..."
btw, the purcell book is *really* interesting.
dmet
Jahnke) wrote:
>In article <36B53F49...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
><ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> one thing that i didnt' get was the marketing plan to change the
>> sobriquet associated with the university based upon the belief that
>> "university of chicago" sounds too much like the name of a public
>> university. the plan is to colloquially call it "chicago" because
>> all of the other top tier institutions have a single name
>> nickname (e.g. harvard, yale, berkeley, &c.).
>
>Yea, I thought that was odd too, apparently there are folks sitting in
>offices at the U of C with WAAAAAYYYYY too much time on their hands.
>Personally anyone who knows what the U of C means is worth talking to
>aboutit. Given the only place U of C has been confused with in my mind has
>been California who all call them UC, I don't see it as a big problem.
If you tell people you attended Chicago, the ones who matter know
exactly what is meant. Why mess with a good thing? There is a big
difference in saying you attended Chicago vs "school in Chicago."
When it comes to recruiting students still in high school, rather than
messing with the name, the admissions office should identify the top
high schools in the country and invite the senior advisors to the campus
at University expense to show them exactly what is there - put on a nice
dog and pony show, including having current University students from the
invited high schools present to talk with the high school counselors.
>> anyway, back to the night life/hyde park theme. i've personally got
>> somewhat mixed feelings about this. one of the things that i liked
>> about hyde park when i lived there was that there *wasn't* a lot of
>> action there, it is a fairly quiet place. it's nice to have action
>> in the area - places like lincoln park, &c., but i wouldn't want to
>> *live* in the middle of a lot of action, and have people stumbling
>> out of the bars and urinating in your yard. more night life would
>> bring a better variety of restaurants to the area, along with other
>> businesses which would be good for the area, though. this would
>> work well with the renovation currently going on in the north kenwood
>> area.
There used to be plenty of public urination on 53rd and/or 55th street -
has it changed since I left.
North Kenwood? Once you get North of 47th street, it really does not
much matter for most University students - those of us with houses
between 47th and 51st were all for pushing back the decay.
>I guess I could go either way on this issue, lots of people feel that
>living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance. Personally I don't get
>out much, but when I do, there isn't a hell of a lot to do here. I dunno I
>am more worried that they aer messing with the underlying cirriculum which
>really isn't something you take as lightly as they seem to be.
Did something happen to Jimmy's? For me, that was enough night life for
Hyde Park - a quick trip down the outer drive to the near North side
took care of my other needs - At least, it worked for me :-)
Hyde Park/Kenwood is a gem - at times a bit rough but worth preserving
in my not so humble and very biased opinion.
Dennis Metcalfe
Kenneth Burns
gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>one thing that i didnt' get was the marketing plan to change the
>sobriquet associated with the university based upon the belief that
>"university of chicago" sounds too much like the name of a public
>university. the plan is to colloquially call it "chicago" because
>all of the other top tier institutions have a single name
>nickname (e.g. harvard, yale, berkeley, &c.).
Seems to me that people, especially academics, already refer to it
colloquially as Chicago, though perhaps not as often as U of C. On the
other hand, undergrads almost always refer to it as U of C; at least that
is my recollection.
K
Rahsaan Saleem
Jerome Jahnke wrote:
>
> The article was a bit odd, what they are trying to do is attract more
> undergrads, which in turn will beef up the bottom line, dunno if the U of
> C needs it, but if they have had a flat profit curve I guess putting a bit
> of bounce into it won't hurt. Personally I am for the idea if they
> continue to provide a good education to the incoming undergrads, if they
> just wanna pimp the name of the school off to pass off a bad "product" I
> am against it, kinda hard to win back a repuation.
>
It's interesting...some of the better schools in this country are in bad
neighborhoods...Saint Louis University was rated the most dangerous campus in
the US...and the school sued the publishers for the story
Guess the truth hurts, eh?
And while we're at it, let's not forget UIC....ummm...I don't know...going
south of Roosevelt late at night isn't very appealing....
Rahsaan
Jerome Jahnke
<syca...@primary.net> wrote:
While your observations are true (you augtha cruise my Cornell someday) I
don't see how my comments sparked such an observation. I don't think the
neighborhood turns folks off, as a matter of fact most first and second
year undergrads seem to live in student housing, which is as well run as
any other student housing.
Jer,
Jerome Jahnke
dm...@flatoday.infi.net wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 01:58:04 -0600, j-ja...@uchicago.edu (Jerome
> Jahnke) wrote:
>
> >In article <36B53F49...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
> ><ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >> one thing that i didnt' get was the marketing plan to change the
> >> sobriquet associated with the university based upon the belief that
> >> "university of chicago" sounds too much like the name of a public
> >> university. the plan is to colloquially call it "chicago" because
> >> all of the other top tier institutions have a single name
> >> nickname (e.g. harvard, yale, berkeley, &c.).
> >
> >Yea, I thought that was odd too, apparently there are folks sitting in
> >offices at the U of C with WAAAAAYYYYY too much time on their hands.
> >Personally anyone who knows what the U of C means is worth talking to
> >aboutit. Given the only place U of C has been confused with in my mind has
> >been California who all call them UC, I don't see it as a big problem.
>
> If you tell people you attended Chicago, the ones who matter know
> exactly what is meant. Why mess with a good thing? There is a big
> difference in saying you attended Chicago vs "school in Chicago."
Given I graduate this summer with an MSc I guess I will get to see the
theory in action.
> When it comes to recruiting students still in high school, rather than
> messing with the name, the admissions office should identify the top
> high schools in the country and invite the senior advisors to the campus
> at University expense to show them exactly what is there - put on a nice
> dog and pony show, including having current University students from the
> invited high schools present to talk with the high school counselors.
It doesn't seem to me as though they have problems attracting the
students, I wonder if they actually care about undergrads. I know lots of
faculty do enjoy teaching undergrad and core cirriculum classes, but even
more would rather not see undergrads. Unless this issue is addressed, and
unless they actually work hard to teach these incoming students the plan
will only damage the reputation of the school.
> >I guess I could go either way on this issue, lots of people feel that
> >living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance. Personally I don't get
> >out much, but when I do, there isn't a hell of a lot to do here. I dunno I
> >am more worried that they aer messing with the underlying cirriculum which
> >really isn't something you take as lightly as they seem to be.
>
> Did something happen to Jimmy's? For me, that was enough night life for
> Hyde Park - a quick trip down the outer drive to the near North side
> took care of my other needs - At least, it worked for me :-)
No, but if I am gonna eat snack foods drink beer and watch TV I can do
that in the privacy of my own home... To each his own I suppose. I am not
23 anymore, 33 is closer and it seems rare that an event I want to attend
is anywhere near Hyde Park. This is not to say there isn't anything here,
but I drive a lot to go do things.
> Hyde Park/Kenwood is a gem - at times a bit rough but worth preserving
> in my not so humble and very biased opinion.
I love living here personally, it has a wonderful feel to it, there is
nothing like a university neighborhood, I have lived in more than one of
them and this is the nicest thus far.
Jer,
gil b643
>
> I guess I could go either way on this issue, lots of people feel that
> living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance.
>
i never noticed that sentiment. i assume it comes mostly from
university of chicago students. i probably would feel that way
if i didn't have a car. while mass transit into and out of hyde
park is great during the weekdays, it's useless for going out on
weekends.
gil b643
>
> If you tell people you attended Chicago, the ones who matter know
> exactly what is meant.
>
but there is much to be said for going to a school that is well known
to the public in general. when i got into m.i.t. i thought that i was
a big deal. but some of my friends had never heard of the place. i
grew up in north carolina, the awareness problem didn't exist when i
traveled around in the northeast. on one occasion i stopped by an
athletic goods shop in my hometown that i frequented when i lived there.
it was run by your basic southern good ol' boy types. one of the people
asked "whar 'bouts you going to school at?" when i told him he asked
where the school was. i didn't want to assume that he was familiar with
cambridge so i said "boston" thinking that everyone knew about boston.
the guy's reply was "boston north carolina?"
there wouldn't have been an awareness problem had i gone to harvard...
gil b643
>
> It doesn't seem to me as though they have problems attracting the
> students, I wonder if they actually care about undergrads. I know lots of
> faculty do enjoy teaching undergrad and core cirriculum classes, but even
> more would rather not see undergrads. Unless this issue is addressed, and
> unless they actually work hard to teach these incoming students the plan
> will only damage the reputation of the school.
>
as i recall, most of the students at the university of chicago are
graduate students...
but the fact of the matter is, while the u of c touts its nobel prize
winners, you're not going to see them teaching undergraduates. the
reason why they are able to bag these prizes is that they spend their
time doing research, not teaching basics to undergraduates. that kind
of stuff is relegated to graduate students and junior faculty. that
doesn't hurt admissions because the prizes and awards bring prestige
to the school which helps them to recruit students.
> I love living here personally, it has a wonderful feel to it, there is
> nothing like a university neighborhood, I have lived in more than one of
> them and this is the nicest thus far.
>
i agree on hyde park; i was really sorry to leave. that said, the
best place i have lived in cambridge, massachusetts. i don't like
boston, or new england in general but cambridge was a great place;
it's the ultimate university town. palo alto california, another
place in which i have lived, blows but it is still better than
pasadena. berkeley california also left a good impression upon me;
i'd put it second after cambridge. boulder colorado is a pretty nice
place too. the place i *least* liked living was the 2 years, 2 months,
and 2 weeks that i spent living in texas [if i ever get convicted of
a crime i feel that i should get that amount of time off my sentance]
but even still, i found austin to be halfway tolerable - i probably
would have liked it a lot more had it not been in texas.
vbui...@tribune.com
haven't already read the article
AT U. OF C., C STANDS FOR CHUCKLES
http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,
1051,ART-22575,00.html
As a current U of C student one thing I do know,
though it doesn't merit a name change, is that when I
tell people I go to U of C, it is often confused with
UIC or then Chicago State. Call it ignorance?
Possibly...
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
Tommy the Terrorist
syca...@primary.net writes:
>It's interesting...some of the better schools in this country are in bad
>neighborhoods...Saint Louis University was rated the most dangerous campus in
>the US...and the school sued the publishers for the story
Hmmm... and East Saint Louis is legendary for having the absolute worst
public schools in the entire U.S. I'm beginning to see a pattern here...
>Guess the truth hurts, eh?
The general appeal of having a campus in a "bad" neighborhood is that it's
cheap to buy more land, and it's easy to have the state force the owners
to sell at that cheap price.
Additionally, campuses often get their start (as with UIC) in the
destruction
of "bad neighborhoods". Whether they call it renewal, redevelopment, or
whatever, the #1 TOP priority of every city in America is to Get The
Niggers
OUT!, and a great way to do it is to bulldoze a dozen square blocks to
create a campus (and lots of athletic fields and "green space", the more
the better!), or to make a stadium and LOTS of horizontal parking all
around
it. You notice these things aren't laid out to use a minimum amount of
land, but they still take it all by eminent domain...
The dirtier half of the process has to do with clearing the land. You
notice
that in Bad Neighborhoods they don't really bother to keep the sidewalk
unbroken, or not falling in, or not having big patches of grass and weeds
growing up in it. This general lack of services, redlining by banks, and
refusal to "encourage" businesses as in other parts of the city is all
done
for some sort of a reason. That reason might be that the university wants
to get the land as cheaply as possible. Or it might be that the local
alderman
and notably corrupt real estate speculator who has a tendency to get his
$40 million dollar loans written off by the governor for $10 million have
various side projects to "develop" land right nearby at the same time,
seizing it from its "owners" by eminent domain at fire-sale prices fitting
land in a desolate ghetto, then putting up pretty condominiums next to a
brand new University extension...
>And while we're at it, let's not forget UIC....ummm...I don't know...going
>south of Roosevelt late at night isn't very appealing....
Oh, but just wait! They've torn down the Maxwell Street neighborhood
to put up some lovely full-size athletic fields and lots of nice big
parking lots, and right next to that the local alderman has something
like a hundred new housing units going up on land from newly torn
down housing projects, and the rest of the Maxwell Street neighborhood
will be developed by this guy Cellini who the University picked because
he was well connected with the governor... they've torn down huge
sections of that neighborhood already, and they're not finished yet.
By the time they finish they'll have dropped everything from HALSTED
to OAKLEY (west of Damen!), from Roosevelt south to the rail tracks
north of 18th street.
phu...@enteract.com
> if i didn't have a car. while mass transit into and out of hyde
> park is great during the weekdays, it's useless for going out on
> weekends.
Or at night. I'm certainly glad I got out. It's a great neighborhood,
but it's in a terrible location.
Jerome Jahnke
Katman) wrote:
> In article <j-jahnke-010...@dapple.sopori.org>,
> j-ja...@uchicago.edu (Jerome Jahnke) wrote:
>
> > In article <36B53F49...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
> > <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > > one thing that i didnt' get was the marketing plan to change the
> > > sobriquet associated with the university based upon the belief that
> > > "university of chicago" sounds too much like the name of a public
> > > university. the plan is to colloquially call it "chicago" because
> > > all of the other top tier institutions have a single name
> > > nickname (e.g. harvard, yale, berkeley, &c.).
> >
> > Yea, I thought that was odd too, apparently there are folks sitting in
> > offices at the U of C with WAAAAAYYYYY too much time on their hands.
> > Personally anyone who knows what the U of C means is worth talking to
> > aboutit. Given the only place U of C has been confused with in my mind has
> > been California who all call them UC, I don't see it as a big problem. The
> > idea that you can reduce it to the name of a huge city like Chicago is,
> > well batty, when people ask you where you went to school Chicago will
> > always mean one of quite a few schools no matter how much money they sink
> > down the Chicago rathole. Why not call it "Hyde Park?"
> [snip]
>
> You don't spend much time on the phone, do you? I recall about 50% of the
> time I would say "that's the University of Chicago" and the person on the
> other line would say "oh yea, University of Illinois at Chicago - great
> place"
You know I don't, hell I don't even answer the phone most of the time. If
folks gotta talk to me they can come do it face to face, or send me
e-mail. Phones suck.
Jer,
dho...@webley.com
I used to work at UIC and when I'd say UIC, about half the people heard UofC.
And that wasn't even over the phone.
Unless UofC makes a dramatic change they'll always have their name confused.
And if they are going to change their name, let me suggest "Don". Short,
to-the-point, easy to spell, and it connotes quality.
-dh
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Scott Wilson
gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>Jerome Jahnke wrote:
>>
>> It doesn't seem to me as though they have problems attracting the
>> students, I wonder if they actually care about undergrads. I know lots of
>> faculty do enjoy teaching undergrad and core cirriculum classes, but even
>> more would rather not see undergrads. Unless this issue is addressed, and
>> unless they actually work hard to teach these incoming students the plan
>> will only damage the reputation of the school.
>
>winners, you're not going to see them teaching undergraduates. the
>reason why they are able to bag these prizes is that they spend their
>time doing research, not teaching basics to undergraduates. that kind
>of stuff is relegated to graduate students and junior faculty. that
>doesn't hurt admissions because the prizes and awards bring prestige
>to the school which helps them to recruit students.
That is not necessarily true. Back when Leon Ledermann (sp?) taught
physics here, he not only continued teaching undergrads as long as
possible, he insisted on teaching Physics for Poets.(the common core
physics designed for non-science majors)
Of course... the administration said that he was too old at some point, so
now IIRC he teaches at IIT.
--
Scott Wilson
swi...@mcs.net
Payton Chung
prison sentence. (I grew up in Cary, N.C. - a suburb of
Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill - and life in a sleepy provincial Southern
suburb is more akin to a medium-security prison. Life in a small town in
the South is like San Quentin.)
Part (okay, a big part) of my rationale for attending college in a large
city with the continent's second-largest transit fleet was that I'd be
able to get places and never have to see the interior of a car ('two ton
steel death trap/solitary confinement cage/personal global climate
change agent with bonus internal air toxifier' to me) while I was in
college. Cities and cars don't mix,* and I chose the city over the car.
Hyde Park is more and more of an car-suburb with every passing year (the
big box stores have invaded; the university increasingly treats the rest
of the city as an exotic, faraway tourist destination, as if Oakland was
some sort of frightening tropical rainforest; the CTA cuts its night
service relentlessly), and that's precisely what I hate most about it.
It doesn't have the vitality or energy of a real city neighborhood.
Some of my classmates love Hyde Park. They're the ones, though, who
never leave, the ones who might as well have gone to Oberlin or Williams
or Dartmouth or some other tiny college town. These are also usually
people who were happy with their suburban childhoods.
* this I say without any qualification whatsoever, though I've got a
bibliography if anyone cares.
regards -PC
gil b643 wrote:
> Jerome Jahnke wrote:
> > I guess I could go either way on this issue, lots of people feel
> > that living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance.
> i never noticed that sentiment. i assume it comes mostly from
> university of chicago students. i probably would feel that way
> if i didn't have a car.
--
(Payton Chung opines for himself * visit http://happyzoo.bourgeois.com)
| 'Rather than witnessing the dawn of a human rights "golden age", |
| the 21st century will be ushered in by hunger, poverty, intolerance |
| and violence. After 50 years of human rights achievement, the |
| greatest challenges are yet to come.' --Sir Zelman Cowen, Australia |
Payton Chung
> Additionally, campuses often get their start (as with UIC) in the
> destruction
> of "bad neighborhoods". Whether they call it renewal, redevelopment
> The Niggers OUT!
In Chicago, it's usually been a process of containment within set 'Black
Belts' -- 'keep the niggers out', not get 'em out. In UIC's case, the
neighborhood was Italian and Greek before it was razed for what I
consider the worst/best example of Corbusian 'grandeur' in this city.
(Robert Taylor Homes comes close.) It's a moot point, tho; in the end,
poor people got shafted (and continue to get shafted in our late
capitalist moment, albeit with a slightly happier face). As if anything
else was new...
Most large university campuses in this country (I venture) were built
many decades before urban renewal (removal) was a priority for
governments -- most campuses get their start on cheap land, alright, but
usually that's because it's suburban or semirural or downright rural.
The resulting 'urban renewal' associated with university/college
campuses tends to be associated with campus expansions into 'blighted'
urban neighborhoods. (Yale, MIT, Columbia, Chicago are all textbook cases)
Just some clarifications...
regards -PC
Payton Chung
perhaps it's because campus neighborhoods (in cities, that is) are
surrounded by low-cost student rental housing and have high turnover
rates? Large amounts of rental housing and turnover = 'social
disorganization' = easily 'blighted' neighborhood.
The rooming-house districts of yore (think Old Town, Uptown) suffered
from the same factors. I wonder why one gentrified quickly, while the
other is still 'up and coming' after all these years...
regards -PC
Rahsaan Saleem wrote:
> It's interesting...some of the better schools in this country are in
> bad neighborhoods...Saint Louis University was rated the most
> dangerous campus in the US...
Payton Chung
[on how I hate Hyde Park]
> It doesn't have the vitality or energy of a real city neighborhood.
This passage from Jane Jacobs (The Death and Life of Great American
Cities, Random House, 1961, pp. 44-5) might be of interest. It's amazing
how timeless this is, especially since books on cities written five or
six years ago are now pitifully out of date.
‘The gray areas’ pitifully few and thinly spaced patches of brightness
and life are like the visible corridors at Blenheim Houses. They do
attract strangers. But the relatively deserted, dull, blind streets
leading from these places are like the fire stairs at Blenheim Houses.
These are not equipped to handle strangers and the presence of strangers
in them is an automatic menace.
‘The temptation in such cases is to blame the balconies—or the commerce
or bars that serve as a magnet. A typical train of thought is
exemplified in the Hyde Park-Kenwood renewal project now under way in
Chicago. This piece of gray area adjoining the University of Chicago
contains many splendid houses and grounds, but for thirty years it has
been plagued with a frightening street crime problem, accompanied in
latter years by considerable physical decay. The "cause" of Hyde
Park-Kenwood’s decline has been brilliantly identified, by the planning
heirs of the bloodletting doctors, as the presence of "blight." By
blight they mean that too many of the college professors and other
middle-class families steadily deserted this dull and dangerous area and
their places were often, quite naturally, taken by those with little
economic or social choice among living places. The plan designates and
removes these chunks of blight and replaces them with chunks of Radiant
Garden City designed, as usual, to minimize use of the streets. The plan
also adds still more empty spaces here and there, blurs even further the
district’s already poor distinctions between private and public space,
and amputates the existing commerce, which is no great shakes. The early
plans for this renewal included a relatively large imitation-suburban
shopping center. But the thoughts of this brought a faint reminder of
realities and a glimmer of apprehension in the course of the planning
process. A large center, larger than that required for the standard
shopping needs of residents in the renewal district itself, "might draw
into the area extraneous people," as one of the architectural planners
put it. A small shopping center was thereupon settled on. Large or small
matters little.
‘It matters little because Hyde Park-Kenwood, like all city districts,
is, in real life, surrounded by "extraneous" people. The area is an
embedded part of Chicago. It cannot wish away its location. It cannot
bring back its one-time condition, long gone, of semisuburbia. To plan
as if it could, and to evade its deep, functional inadequacies, can have
only one of two possible results.
‘Either extraneous people will continue to come into the area as they
please, and if so they will include some strangers who are not at all
nice. So far as security is concerned, nothing will have changed except
that the opportunity for street crime will be a little easier, if
anything, because of the added emptiness. Or the plan can be accompanied
by determined, extraordinary means for keeping extraneous people out of
this area, just as the adjoining University of Chicago, the institution
that was the moving spirit in getting the plan under way, has itself
taken the extraordinary measure, as reported in the press, of loosing
police dogs every night to patrol its campus and hold at bay any human
being in this dangerous unurban inner keep. The barriers formed by new
projects at the edges of Hyde Park-Kenwood, plus extraordinary policing,
may indeed keep out extraneous people with sufficient effectiveness. If
so, the price will be hostility from the surrounding city and an ever
more beleaguered feeling within the fort. And who can be sure, either,
that all those thousands within the fort are trustworthy in the dark?
[The University's response was, of course, number 2: to patrol Hyde
Park-Kenwood with its mini-army.]
regards -PC
Rahsaan Saleem
Jerome Jahnke wrote:
> While your observations are true (you augtha cruise my Cornell someday) I
> don't see how my comments sparked such an observation.
Oh, but it did...in a good way. The area around SLU has been undergoing rehab for
several years now...thanks to a LOT of SLU dollars...the neighborhood is slowly
becoming "fashionable." I wonder if Hyde Park will become that way.
*ponders sending a grad school app to UC*
Rahsaan
dmet
wrote:
>dmet wrote:
>>
>> If you tell people you attended Chicago, the ones who matter know
>> exactly what is meant.
>>
>
>but there is much to be said for going to a school that is well known
>to the public in general. when i got into m.i.t. i thought that i was
>a big deal. but some of my friends had never heard of the place. i
>grew up in north carolina, the awareness problem didn't exist when i
>traveled around in the northeast. on one occasion i stopped by an
>athletic goods shop in my hometown that i frequented when i lived there.
>it was run by your basic southern good ol' boy types. one of the people
>asked "whar 'bouts you going to school at?" when i told him he asked
>where the school was. i didn't want to assume that he was familiar with
>cambridge so i said "boston" thinking that everyone knew about boston.
>the guy's reply was "boston north carolina?"
>
>there wouldn't have been an awareness problem had i gone to harvard...
Funny story but truth be told, other than Harvard, many folks,
especially those who have not been to college, have little idea about
any college or university other than what is in their immediate area
(unless the place has a nationally ranked football or basketball team :)
Geez, I grew up in Aurora, IL - I doubt 2 out of a 100 had any idea
what the University of Chicago was. Probably still the same.
Speaking of how well schools are known - the first time I saw a
transcript with "Leland Stanford Jr. University" across the top I
quickly had to verify that it was indeed THE Stanford in Palo Alto.
Dennis Metcalfe
gil b643
>
> In article <36B68F68...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
> <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>
> > but the fact of the matter is, while the u of c touts its nobel prize
> > winners, you're not going to see them teaching undergraduates.
>
> winner, Becker? And there must have been a few other people who took the
> course too.
>
there are always exceptions to every rule, so let me put it this way:
you *generally* don't see nobel prize winners teaching undergraduates.
gil b643
>
> On Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:38:48 -0600, gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >as i recall, most of the students at the university of chicago are
> >graduate students...
>
> when I was there.
>
that is *really* high. the 3:1 ratio is over twice that of m.i.t. or
caltech.
gil b643
>
> Funny story but truth be told, other than Harvard, many folks,
> especially those who have not been to college, have little idea about
> any college or university other than what is in their immediate area
> (unless the place has a nationally ranked football or basketball team
>
funny thing about harvard; you see people wearing "harvard" apparel
who have no connection to the place - it wouldn't suprise me if some
of the people wearing such clothing couldn't even read the word
"HARVARD" plastered on their chests if you asked them. :-)
around the chicago area whenever i ask people (wearing such apparel)
if they went to harvard, i generally get an embarrassed look from the
person and some explanation about how a 'friend' bought it for them.
Jerome Jahnke
<ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> Lee Katman wrote:
> >
> > In article <36B68F68...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
> > <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> >
> > > but the fact of the matter is, while the u of c touts its nobel prize
> > > winners, you're not going to see them teaching undergraduates.
> >
> > I know at least one undergrad who took a course with that recent Econ.
> > winner, Becker? And there must have been a few other people who took the
> > course too.
> >
>
> there are always exceptions to every rule, so let me put it this way:
> you *generally* don't see nobel prize winners teaching undergraduates.
You *generally* don't see nobel prize winners... Given the Econ Facutly
has what 6 of em odds are good you do generally see them teaching
undergrads. Just being pedantic here.
Jer,
Jerome Jahnke
<ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> dmet wrote:
> >
> > Funny story but truth be told, other than Harvard, many folks,
> > especially those who have not been to college, have little idea about
> > any college or university other than what is in their immediate area
> > (unless the place has a nationally ranked football or basketball team
> >
>
> funny thing about harvard; you see people wearing "harvard" apparel
> who have no connection to the place - it wouldn't suprise me if some
> of the people wearing such clothing couldn't even read the word
> "HARVARD" plastered on their chests if you asked them. :-)
>
> around the chicago area whenever i ask people (wearing such apparel)
> if they went to harvard, i generally get an embarrassed look from the
> person and some explanation about how a 'friend' bought it for them.
Well there ya are then, all the U of C has to do to raise the bottom line
is start their own clothing line. Those Fubu jokers seems to make some
serious change...
Jer,
gil b643
>
> Just a random theory...
> perhaps it's because campus neighborhoods (in cities, that is) are
> surrounded by low-cost student rental housing and have high turnover
> rates? Large amounts of rental housing and turnover = 'social
> disorganization' = easily 'blighted' neighborhood.
>
you're *definitely* wrong about this. hyde park is not a "blighted"
neighborhood; and hyde park rents are the second highest for a lake
front community in chicago. the area around stanford university
(ok, the leland stanford jr. univeristy) is also not blighted, and
rents there are high also.
the reason why urban campuses are near "blighted" areas is that in
big cities *everybody* is near a blighted area. that's just the nature
of big cities versus suburbs.
gil b643
>
> Jerome Jahnke wrote:
> >
> > I guess I could go either way on this issue, lots of people feel that
> > living in Hyde Park is akin to a prison sentance.
> >
>
> i never noticed that sentiment. i assume it comes mostly from
> university of chicago students.
>
now that i think about it, i do recall hearing a couple of u of c
students talking at the apartment in which i used to live in hyde
park, and one was telling the other how he didn't like the area
and was looking to blow the scene. kind of wonder, though, why
people like that don't live in the near north, or even printer's
row area and take the metra train to campus - it's not like it's
hard to do.
gil b643
>
> In chi.general gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> > while mass transit into and out of hyde
> > park is great during the weekdays, it's useless for going out on
> > weekends.
>
> Or at night.
>
at night on weekends, but this statement is not true during the week.
the jeffrey express runs from the loop to hyde park until 10:30 pm or
so.
gil b643
>
> Part (okay, a big part) of my rationale for attending college in a large
> city with the continent's second-largest transit fleet was that I'd be
> able to get places and never have to see the interior of a car ('two ton
> steel death trap/solitary confinement cage/personal global climate
> change agent with bonus internal air toxifier' to me) while I was in
> college. Cities and cars don't mix,* and I chose the city over the car.
>
actually, if you really wanted to avoid using a car you should have
gone to a city with a high population density - namely the north
east. notwithstanding the population of the city of chicago, it's
population density is much lower than that of places like new york,
boston, and probably philiadelphia. in new york and boston, many
people don't bother with cars - the driving distances are too short,
and when you get to where you are going you spend so much time trying
to find a place to park, it would have been quicker to use mass transit.
that is not the case in chicago - the city is more spread out than
the abovementioned places. you can certainly get around without a
car in chicago - especially compared to the southeast where mass
transit is not so popular. there, people tend to assume that if
you ride the bus it's because you can't afford a car.
> Hyde Park is more and more of an car-suburb with every passing year (the
> big box stores have invaded; the university increasingly treats the rest
> of the city as an exotic, faraway tourist destination,
>
well, you know, kenwood was originally developed for rich people
as a place away from the city. the put in the rail line to make
it convenient for them to get to downtown. hyde park housing got
a boost from the world columbian exposition. you'll notice that
there's a lot more rental housing in hyde park than in kenwood.
> as if Oakland was
> some sort of frightening tropical rainforest;
>
hyde park is very much of an economic anomaly in that area. the crime
rate is low, but you'll notice that there are 3 "security" groups that
patrol the area:
1. city of chicago police
2. university of chicago police
3. various private security agencies hired by apartments
when i was living in hyde park, i was very aware of the difference
between hyde park and the neighborhoods around hyde park.
> the CTA cuts its night
> service relentlessly), and that's precisely what I hate most about it.
> It doesn't have the vitality or energy of a real city neighborhood.
>
i think that hyde park has more of a neighborhood feel than the
comparatively transient and sterile streeterville, loop, or near north
areas - they didn't seem like neighborhoods at all to me: at least
not places where real people would want to live.
> Some of my classmates love Hyde Park. They're the ones, though, who
> never leave, the ones who might as well have gone to Oberlin or Williams
> or Dartmouth or some other tiny college town. These are also usually
> people who were happy with their suburban childhoods.
>
its certainly a true statement that living in hyde park is like living
in the city but yet not living in the city; you weren't in the middle
of all of the action, but were close enough to it that it wasn't a
major effort to get to the action.
gil b643
>
> In article <36B7D8B3...@nospam.tezcat.com>, gil b643
> <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>
> > there are always exceptions to every rule, so let me put it this way:
> > you *generally* don't see nobel prize winners teaching undergraduates.
>
> You *generally* don't see nobel prize winners... Given the Econ Facutly
> has what 6 of em odds are good you do generally see them teaching
> undergrads. Just being pedantic here.
>
ok, if you take the *pool* of nobel prize winners (and reknowned
academics) from across university faculties, you generally don't
see them teaching undergraduates.
dmet
wrote:
<snip>
>as i recall, most of the students at the university of chicago are
>graduate students...
I recall there were three times as many grad students as in the college
when I was there.
>but the fact of the matter is, while the u of c touts its nobel prize
>winners, you're not going to see them teaching undergraduates.
<snip>
That certainly was not true with the economists in the GSB or dept of
Economics - many undergraduates took courses from some very well known
names, both before and after their prizes were awarded. In fact, some
senior faculty enjoyed teaching intro courses so that people new to the
field would discover how interesting the field could be.
Granted, some people are not very good teachers - they are better off
left doing their research and running a couple of graduate seminars.
The most famous person in the world, if s/he cannot teach, should not be
inflicted on newcomers to the field - what a way to end curiosity.
Dennis Metcalfe
Adam H. Kerman
Tommy the Terrorist <may...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>Additionally, campuses often get their start (as with UIC) in the destruction
>of "bad neighborhoods". Whether they call it renewal, redevelopment, or
>whatever, the #1 TOP priority of every city in America is to Get The Niggers
>OUT!, and a great way to do it is to bulldoze a dozen square blocks to
>create a campus (and lots of athletic fields and "green space", the more
>the better!), or to make a stadium and LOTS of horizontal parking all around
>it. You notice these things aren't laid out to use a minimum amount of
>land, but they still take it all by eminent domain...
The neighborhood that was bulldozed for UIC was filled with second and third
generation Italians and Greeks who didn't want to leave. It was originally
called Chicago Circle Campus (named after the interchange) before it merged
with the separate Medical School/Hospital campus a few blocks west.
Tommy, do you know Bill Wendt?
Dan Hartung
>Speaking of how well schools are known - the first time I saw a
>transcript with "Leland Stanford Jr. University" across the top I
>quickly had to verify that it was indeed THE Stanford in Palo Alto.
Wasn't there an old joke about what a "Jr. University" was?
David J. Craven
>> Or at night.
>>
>at night on weekends, but this statement is not true during the week.
>the jeffrey express runs from the loop to hyde park until 10:30 pm or
>so.
It depends on your definition of "at night". 10:30 is too early to get you
home from the Opera, some Symphony concerts, a later showing at a Movie
Theater, a baseball game, a basketball game or a hockey game at the Stadium,
certain jobs and so forth. For many of us, the 10:30 cutoff time is
ridiculously early. And how late do the 151 and 22 run? Even though they are
paralell and never more than a mile apart for the duration of their route?
Tommy the Terrorist
pay...@populus.net writes:
>In Chicago, it's usually been a process of containment within set 'Black
>Belts' -- 'keep the niggers out', not get 'em out. In UIC's case, the
>neighborhood was Italian and Greek before it was razed for what I
>consider the worst/best example of Corbusian 'grandeur' in this city.
>(Robert Taylor Homes comes close.) It's a moot point, tho; in the end,
>poor people got shafted (and continue to get shafted in our late
>capitalist moment, albeit with a slightly happier face). As if anything
>else was new...
Well, actually, the UIC demolition apparently started _all the way at
the south end of the Maxwell St. neighborhood_ and moved NORTH. That's
why there were all those fenced-in empty blocks in between the streets
that the Maxwell Street Market was being held on. So it covered more
than just the Italian/Greek neighborhood; it's just that they only
actually bothered to BUILD anything on the north end of it. The rest just
sat empty from the 70's to the 90's, which is how the city wanted it...
think about it. They actually eminent-domained and leveled nearly
twice the area they needed, and didn't bother to put so much as parking
lots on huge segments of it for 20 years. Interesting, eh?
Brian Ward
|at night on weekends, but this statement is not true during the week.
|the jeffrey express runs from the loop to hyde park until 10:30 pm or
|so.
The Metra Highliners run until around midnight on weekdays and on weekends
(Saturday schedule is similar to weekday schedule, on Sundays the trains are
a little more sparse.) They're also usually on schedule.
Eric Holeman
Payton Chung <pay...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In UIC's case, the
>neighborhood was Italian and Greek before it was razed for what I
>consider the worst/best example of Corbusian 'grandeur' in this city.
>(Robert Taylor Homes comes close.)
Nah. For the total Corbusier overload, you'd have to hit one of the
superblocks on the west side--ABLA or Rockwell, I think.
--
-----
Eric Holeman Chicago, Illinois USA
"I am uniquely positioned and prepared to be president."
--J. Danforth Quayle
Eric Holeman
gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>ok, if you take the *pool* of nobel prize winners (and reknowned
>academics) from across university faculties, you generally don't
>see them teaching undergraduates.
Just keep on qualiifying, Ron, and eventually you'll come up with
something that's true.
Eric Holeman
Payton Chung <pay...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>This passage from Jane Jacobs (The Death and Life of Great American
>Cities, Random House, 1961, pp. 44-5) might be of interest. It's amazing
>how timeless this is, especially since books on cities written five or
>six years ago are now pitifully out of date.
Jane kicks ass.
>選t matters little because Hyde Park-Kenwood, like all city districts,
>is, in real life, surrounded by "extraneous" people. The area is an
>embedded part of Chicago. It cannot wish away its location. It cannot
>bring back its one-time condition, long gone, of semisuburbia.
Tell that to Mayor Mini-mall, or to Valerie "amputate-the-el" Jarrett.
David J. Craven
>The Metra Highliners run until around midnight on weekdays and on weekends
>(Saturday schedule is similar to weekday schedule, on Sundays the trains are
>a little more sparse.) They're also usually on schedule.
Metra does run a bit later, but you are looking at two fares unless coming
from downtown AND they still don't run that late... And how late does the
Howard line, the 151 and the 22 run... and how often are they ever more than
one mile apart?
Yes, one could go to 55th/Garfield and take the 55 bus, but that can be of
questionable safety late at night...
The transit to Hyde Park, while some of the best on the South Side, still is
terrible when compared to the transit service to the North and Northwest
Sides...
Eric Holeman
David J. Craven <Ple...@no.spam.to.enteract.com> wrote:
>Metra does run a bit later, but you are looking at two fares unless coming
>from downtown AND they still don't run that late... And how late does the
>Howard line, the 151 and the 22 run...
151 doesn't run after 1 am north of Lawrence.
> and how often are they ever more than one mle apart?
Nowhere, from what I can tell.
>Yes, one could go to 55th/Garfield and take the 55 bus, but that can be of
>questionable safety late at night...
Why's that?
David J. Craven
>>Yes, one could go to 55th/Garfield and take the 55 bus, but that can be of
>>questionable safety late at night...
>Why's that?
Well.. I know a number of people who have been mugged while waiting...
Greg Whitman
I know one person who was mugged and beat up there, but, to
contribute more anecdotal reports, I've been there dozens of
times late at night (midnight - 3 am) and never got hurt or
robbed. Of course I'm one badass m~th~f~ker so people just
leave me alone. The most hassle I ever got at that stop was
from people asking for change.
That being said, I think there should be another route to HP.
Even the Indiana/Hyde Park has been eliminated on weekends!
The CTA service at night and on weekends is more pathetic
now than it's ever been.
--
"So, for the first time of my life I saw what
weightlifting was (I had never heard of it before!!! It's crazy!)"
--- Maryse Turcotte
gil b643
>
> In article <36B7E37A...@nospam.tezcat.com>,
> gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>
> >ok, if you take the *pool* of nobel prize winners (and reknowned
> >academics) from across university faculties, you generally don't
> >see them teaching undergraduates.
>
> Just keep on qualiifying, Ron, and eventually you'll come up with
> something that's true.
>
it's getting to the point where it's starting to feel like i'm writing
a piece of legislation instead of just making an observation.
gil b643
>
> In article <36B7DDE0...@nospam.tezcat.com> gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> writes:
>
> >at night on weekends, but this statement is not true during the week.
> >the jeffrey express runs from the loop to hyde park until 10:30 pm or
> >so.
>
> home from the Opera, some Symphony concerts, a later showing at a Movie
> Theater, a baseball game, a basketball game or a hockey game at the Stadium,
> certain jobs and so forth. For many of us, the 10:30 cutoff time is
> ridiculously early. And how late do the 151 and 22 run? Even though they are
> paralell and never more than a mile apart for the duration of their route?
>
very good point. as much as i liked living in hyde park some of the
inconveniences, such as the one that you pointed out were somewhat of
a drag. i think that problem with hyde park is that it's somewhat of
an island.
gil b643
>
> gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> writes:
> |at night on weekends, but this statement is not true during the week.
> |the jeffrey express runs from the loop to hyde park until 10:30 pm or
> |so.
>
> (Saturday schedule is similar to weekday schedule, on Sundays the trains are
> a little more sparse.) They're also usually on schedule.
>
the metra electric line runs too infrequently to be useful; if you
miss one train you've got a one hour wait for another train - and
on sundays that becomes a two hour wait.
as david craven pointed out, mass transit into hyde park isn't very
useful for the person who is going out on the town - but it is great
for people using it to get back and forth from work.
gil b643
>
> In article <36B7D95D...@nospam.tezcat.com>,
> gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> > dmet wrote:
> >
> > that is *really* high. the 3:1 ratio is over twice that of m.i.t. or
> > caltech.
> >
>
> 10,000 grad students.
>
here are the statistics from this year's m.i.t. application for
freshman admission package:
undergraduate: 4,381
graduate: 5,499
ratio: 1.25:1
> You said that you were admitted to MIT - did you go?
> What year did you graduate?
>
i went there from 1975-1982. the current ratio is slightly higher
than when i went there - the student body was about 8,000 then, with
a ratio of about 1.1-1.15:1.
> What course were you?
>
vi-1 undergrateduate/vi graduate
> When compared to Boston/Cambridge, Chicago/Hyde Park just doesn't. Cambridge
> is an awesome place to live, whereas Hyde Park... seems like most people want
> to get out.
>
actually this statement is *very* wrong in general. hyde park is far
from a transient neighborhood as most people are long time residents.
even in the apartment that i lived there were a lot of people who had
been living there for a very long time...keep in mind, this is an
apartment about which i'm speaking. the fact is that most people
living in hyde park actually *like* hyde park. it has some definite
benefits, it's in the city, it's quiet, it's got a low crime rate,
you can take reasonably quiet walks along the lakefront - especially
during the week when there are few other people around. the
comparatively high rents, real estate costs, and new housing in the
neighborhood do not indicate a neighborhood of which "most people want
to got out".
> As far as nightlife in Hyde Park - there's Jimmy's, the Falcon Inn, the Cove,
> and of course, the Pub in Ida Noyes.
>
i wouldn't call any of these places "nightlife".
> My main gripe with living in Hyde Park
> is that it takes a lot of effort to get to the fun parts of the city, and so
> people are discouraged from going out.
>
if you've got a car it's not that hard to get around. i mean you're
only 5 or 6 miles away from nightlife. even if you don't have a car
you can still use cabs. try doing that if you went to school at a
place like caltech, or even stanford.
wsl...@alum.mit.edu
gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> dmet wrote:
>
> that is *really* high. the 3:1 ratio is over twice that of m.i.t. or
> caltech.
>
Actually, the ratio at MIT is between 2:1 and 3:1 - about 4500 undergrads and
10,000 grad students. You said that you were admitted to MIT - did you go?
What year did you graduate? What course were you?
When compared to Boston/Cambridge, Chicago/Hyde Park just doesn't. Cambridge
is an awesome place to live, whereas Hyde Park... seems like most people want
to get out.
As far as nightlife in Hyde Park - there's Jimmy's, the Falcon Inn, the Cove,
and of course, the Pub in Ida Noyes. My main gripe with living in Hyde Park
is that it takes a lot of effort to get to the fun parts of the city, and so
people are discouraged from going out. Of course, my friends are all
starving grad students with no money to spend. Hmm.... maybe that's a good
thing after all. ;-)
Shon
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Adam H. Kerman
gil b643 <ron...@tezcat.com> wrote:
>it's getting to the point where it's starting to feel like i'm writing
>a piece of legislation instead of just making an observation.
Who'd let you draft legislation? You won't use your shift key.
Adam H. Kerman
>gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> writes:
>>at night on weekends, but this statement is not true during the week.
>>the jeffrey express runs from the loop to hyde park until 10:30 pm or so.
>It depends on your definition of "at night". 10:30 is too early to get you
>home from the Opera, some Symphony concerts, a later showing at a Movie
>Theater, a baseball game, a basketball game or a hockey game at the Stadium,
>certain jobs and so forth. For many of us, the 10:30 cutoff time is
>ridiculously early.
The last Metra Electric leaves Randolph St. at 12:50 am. Is that late enough
for you?
>And how late do the 151 and 22 run? Even though they are
>paralell and never more than a mile apart for the duration of their route?
The 22 (Clark St.) runs all night. The 151 no longer runs all night to
Rogers Park; it turns back in Uptown. (The N201 serves Sheridan Rd. north of
Devon from Granville, though.)
On the south side, the 55 Garfield runs all night AND waits for the Dan Ryan
"L" for a convenient connection. The 4 Cottage Grove runs all night from the
Loop for no transfer. So your campus has two all-night bus routes, while
Loyola in Rogers Park has none (the "L" runs all night). Northwestern
students in Evanston must transfer to the bizarre N201 at Howard after 1 am.
It seems like Hyde Park has better transit options late evening and overnight
than other neighborhoods.
Adam H. Kerman
Greg Whitman <te...@xochi.tezcat.com> wrote:
>That being said, I think there should be another route to HP.
There are two routes: 55 Garfield and 4 Cottage Grove. If you want additional
service, I'd rather see the Metra Electric run a lot more frequently, and
all night.
Payton Chung
granted, however...
> Cambridge is an awesome place to live,
I'm kinda ambivalent vis-a-vis Cambridge -- I've seen it compared to
Hyde Park on several occasions, but it's hardly a fair comparison given
the scales involved. (Hyde Park has something like 50,000 residents,
Cambridge has near 100,000.)
Some parts of Cambridge are interesting, others aren't. Cambridge was
far more interesting a few years ago (I'm thinking summer '94) than it
was this past summer, having spent most of my summers there. The chaos
of gentrification has utterly killed off many interesting parts of
Cambridge (Harvard Square; Central Square), and made other parts
(Kendall Square, Alewife/Fresh Pond area) even more impossibly mind
numbingly dull.
Even Davis Square in Somerville (Somerville!) is beginning to look like
part of StarbucksWorld.
oh well.. the point is, you can't quite compare the two. (I think it'd
be neat to have Communist bookstores, in any case - Chicago has a better
architectural bookstore, tho. Decisions, decisions!)
> whereas Hyde Park... seems like most people want to get out.
This I don't dispute.
regards -PC
--
(Payton Chung opines for himself * visit http://happyzoo.bourgeois.com)
| 'Rather than witnessing the dawn of a human rights "golden age", |
| the 21st century will be ushered in by hunger, poverty, intolerance |
| and violence. After 50 years of human rights achievement, the |
| greatest challenges are yet to come.' --Sir Zelman Cowen, Australia |
Payton Chung
be around the same, since I usually make 3-5 roundtrips from Hyde Park
on CTA/Metra weekly) -- it's just that I don't make anywhere near
$40,000 a year!
(and I likely won't for many years after graduation)
($1000 a month one bedroom * 3 or 4 = $3000-4000 a month income * 12
months = $36,000 to $48,000 annual income. 25-33% of one's gross income
can be spent on housing, or at least that's what I've been told)
Near North average 1 bedroom rents are around $1250/month, and I'm not
affording that any day soon.
regards -PC
gil b643 wrote:
> now that i think about it, i do recall hearing a couple of u of c
> students talking at the apartment in which i used to live in hyde
> park, and one was telling the other how he didn't like the area
> and was looking to blow the scene. kind of wonder, though, why
> people like that don't live in the near north, or even printer's
> row area and take the metra train to campus - it's not like it's
> hard to do.
Jerome Jahnke
<ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
> i guess university of chicago is trying to change its image to being
> a "fun" place in order to compete for a diminishing pool of students.
> as i understand, the university of chicago has been instrumental in
> keeping bars, and other night spots out of hyde park. i wonder if the
> new initiative will be to get night spots into hyde park. if liquor
> licence laws are changed then it would be a sure sign that such is the
> plan.
Welp, the U of C spammed me with this nice letter from Hugo Sonneschein,
apparently the Administration were not too fond of the story the trib ran.
Since apparently he intends this to go far and wide I feel no remorse
about posting it here, it isn't like ole Hugo and I swap e-mail on a
personal basis. If you do decide to mail bomb him though keep my name out
of it.
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:25:24 -0600 (CST)
Sender: Hugo Sonnenschein <bou...@college.uchicago.edu>
Precedence: bulk
Subject: Response Letters to Chicago Tribune
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
The attached is a letter that I have written to the Chicago
Tribune in response to its front-page story of January 31.
Obviously, the tone and approach of this story and other
recent coverage have been extremely disappointing to all of
us.
=====
(From Hugo Sonnenschein)
To the Editor:
In several recent newspaper articles, the University of
Chicago has been characterized as attempting to become a
"fun" school. The University of Chicago has, of course,
always been a "fun" school in the sense that, for serious-
minded students, teachers, and scholars, our distinctive
commitment to intensive debate, uninhibited and robust
inquiry, and rigorous learning are, in themselves, a joy.
More than any other institution of higher learning, the
University of Chicago is dedicated to "the life of the
mind." That is who we are, and it is who we will continue
to be. It is the magnet that attracts outstanding students
and faculty.
The modest changes approved by the College faculty fully
preserve the fundamental characteristics of Chicago's
traditional core curriculum. This series of ambitious and
highly demanding interdisciplinary courses, taught in small
classes largely by regular members of the faculty, differs
profoundly from the conventional introductory courses found
in the distribution requirements of other institutions.
Again, this is who we are and who we will continue to be.
A great university must provide opportunities for students
that complement "the life of the mind." Our kinds of
students make their choices based first and foremost on
academic reputation. But they also seek more, and they are
right to do so. The ancient Greeks respected a sound mind
in a healthy body; for the first time in 60 years, we are
building a new athletics center on campus. Our new
Community Service Center, expanded Career and Placement
Services Office, and bus service to Chicago's cultural and
social attractions help our students develop a sense of
community and a deep commitment to our city and our world.
I particularly like these comments about the University of
Chicago from an oft-read College guide: "If you're up for
the challenge of a lifetime, consider the University of
Chicago.... You have never worked harder, done more, or
slept less, but you will never learn as much or be so
greatly rewarded." Again, that is who we are and who we
will continue to be. Our dedication to academics first,
coupled with appropriate attention to a variety of
complementary initiatives, strengthens our tradition and
moves us forward as the University most deeply committed to
"the life of the mind," to a serious undergraduate
education, to dynamic graduate programs, and to the most
creative and daring research. Our students, faculty, and
alumni deserve no less.
Sincerely,
Hugo F. Sonnenschein
dmet
Jahnke) wrote:
<snip>
>Welp, the U of C spammed me with this nice letter from Hugo Sonneschein,
>apparently the Administration were not too fond of the story the trib ran.
>
>Since apparently he intends this to go far and wide I feel no remorse
>about posting it here, it isn't like ole Hugo and I swap e-mail on a
>personal basis. If you do decide to mail bomb him though keep my name out
<snip>
Not a bad letter actually - it certainly is much better written than a
letter I saw a few years back that went out under Hannah Gray's name -
some staffer had written a hasty explanation to one of the alumni about
why his offspring had not been admitted to one of the graduate programs.
If a copy of that letter had not come from the administration building,
you might have concluded the letter was a joke, written by an illiterate
Of course the Sonneschein letter is meant for public consumption so more
care may have been taken in crafting it.
This reminds me of an old Limelighter's song (or was it The Kingston
Trio) in which they say "clean mind, clean body - take your pick :)
Dennis Metcalfe
dho...@webley.com
pay...@uchicago.edu wrote:
> Oh, I'd love to live in Printer's Row (my commuting costs would actually
> be around the same, since I usually make 3-5 roundtrips from Hyde Park
> on CTA/Metra weekly) -- it's just that I don't make anywhere near
> $40,000 a year!
> (and I likely won't for many years after graduation)
> ($1000 a month one bedroom * 3 or 4 = $3000-4000 a month income * 12
> months = $36,000 to $48,000 annual income. 25-33% of one's gross income
> can be spent on housing, or at least that's what I've been told)
> Near North average 1 bedroom rents are around $1250/month, and I'm not
> affording that any day soon.
So get a roommate. There are 2BR apartments south of North Avenue renting for
ca $1200/month. Divide by 2 and run through your formula and you can get by
making 21-28K/year. IIRC, there are 2BRs in Printers Row that also rent for
about that much. I've seen 3BRs in 60610 for $1500 if you're willing to have
two roommates. Go beyond the glossy web sites, trib classifieds etc & you can
find something in your price range.
-dh
Brian Ward
|Metra does run a bit later, but you are looking at two fares unless coming
|from downtown
Until they see that the rest of the known universe has a unified fare system
and get the notion in their heads that it's more attractive to tourists than
flowerpots in streets, you're going to be caught in a maze of fares.
My own strategy is just to avoid the CTA as much as possible. Weekends are
nice, you can get the pass and get out of town if you want, and although the
other Metra lines are far less dense, I've seen worse (shades of MARC come
to mind).
|AND they still don't run that late...
Sigh. Late running is very unpopular with transit systems over the globe.
|Yes, one could go to 55th/Garfield and take the 55 bus, but that can be of
|questionable safety late at night...
"If the hoods don't get you, the monoxide will" :-)
|The transit to Hyde Park, while some of the best on the South Side, still is
|terrible when compared to the transit service to the North and Northwest
|Sides...
If you call that of the CTA "service." (Yes, I think they suck. I'm just too
used to the Wiener Verkehrsbetriebe, I suppose.)
Brian Ward
|the metra electric line runs too infrequently to be useful;
For the sloppy.
Greg Whitman
What do you mean there are two routes, #55 and #4? The #55 doesn't
come from downtown. The #4 runs along the west border of HP -- and
sure, you can transfer to #55, but I'm not sure I'd like to hang
out at the corner of 55th & Cottage late at night any more than I'd
like to hang out at 55th and the Dan Ryan... At least the #1 runs
from downtown all the way through HP, when it's running.
I like riding the Metra too, but I don't think $1.95 compared to
20 cents is much of a deal.
Seth Tisue
>"L" for a convenient connection. The 4 Cottage Grove runs all night from the
>Loop for no transfer. So your campus has two all-night bus routes, while
>Loyola in Rogers Park has none (the "L" runs all night). Northwestern
>students in Evanston must transfer to the bizarre N201 at Howard after 1 am.
>
>It seems like Hyde Park has better transit options late evening and overnight
>than other neighborhoods.
I find your reasoning very strange and your conclusion false.
First of all, Loyola (where I lived for several years, until last
week) doesn't *need* an all-night bus line -- it's right on the Red
Line, which runs 24 hours. You mention this in passing as if it
were an insigificant point. The convenience of being right on the
Red Line almost can't be overstated.
Secondly, the Loyola area actually does have an all-night bus to/from
parts south, namely the Clark Street bus. Yes, it only goes within
four blocks of campus, but in Hyde Park, the Garfield bus is four or
more blocks away from much of the U of C campus.
Thirdly, what's so bizarre about the N201? I've taken it, it's a
reasonable substitute for the Purple Line after the Purple Line stops
running. You don't have to catch it at Howard; you can catch it at
Loyola or Granville, which are safer places to wait.
I've lived/studied for several years in Hyde Park, and I've also lived
near Loyola and studied at Northwestern for several years, and I can
definitely say that I felt far more stranded and constrained,
transit-wise, in Hyde Park than I ever have around Loyola or
Northwestern.
Really, I love Hyde Park, but trying to claim that it has just as good
access to public transportation as north side lakefront neighborhoods
do is a far stretch.
--
== Seth Tisue <s-t...@nwu.edu> http://www.cs.nwu.edu/~tisue/
"Did you ever see Star Wars? It was very accurate." - Sun Ra
Seth Tisue
>As far as nightlife in Hyde Park - there's Jimmy's, the Falcon Inn, the Cove,
>and of course, the Pub in Ida Noyes.
Ciral's! Ciral's!
Eric Holeman
Seth Tisue <ti...@cs.nwu.edu> wrote:
>Ciral's! Ciral's!
Are you a former maroonie, or is it just NUers who have this odd thing for
the Tacky Tiki?
Eric Holeman
Seth Tisue <ti...@cs.nwu.edu> wrote:
>Thirdly, what's so bizarre about the N201? I've taken it, it's a
>reasonable substitute for the Purple Line after the Purple Line stops
>running.
What's bizarre about the N201 is that it runs at all, instead of the
perfectly good El service that useta run along the line.
>You don't have to catch it at Howard; you can catch it at
>Loyola or Granville, which are safer places to wait.
Safer than the Howard platform before the service cuts?
Seth Tisue
Eric Holeman <eh...@enteract.com> wrote:
>In article <79d119$1kq$1...@Godzilla.cs.nwu.edu>,
> Seth Tisue <ti...@cs.nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>>Ciral's! Ciral's!
>
>Are you a former maroonie, or is it just NUers who have this odd thing for
>the Tacky Tiki?
The former (a former).
Never appreciated Hyde Park's bars so much until I saw Evanston's...
Tushar Samant
>Eric Holeman <eh...@enteract.com> wrote:
>> Seth Tisue <ti...@cs.nwu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Ciral's! Ciral's!
>>
>>Are you a former maroonie, or is it just NUers who have this odd thing for
>>the Tacky Tiki?
>
>The former (a former).
Excuse me, Tiki is a fine place. Falcon Inn is lame and depressing.
Tushar Samant
>The 22 (Clark St.) runs all night. The 151 no longer runs all night to
>Rogers Park; it turns back in Uptown.
The Red Line is about three blocks away from the 151 route north of
Irving Park, and from Wilson on, the Red Line has stops every three
blocks or so, at least up to Loyola or Morse. So for that stretch,
the 151 route does seem kind of superfluous.
>(The N201 serves Sheridan Rd. north of Devon from Granville, though.)
>
>On the south side, the 55 Garfield runs all night AND waits for the Dan Ryan
>"L" for a convenient connection. The 4 Cottage Grove runs all night from the
>Loop for no transfer. So your campus has two all-night bus routes, while
>Loyola in Rogers Park has none (the "L" runs all night). Northwestern
>students in Evanston must transfer to the bizarre N201 at Howard after 1 am.
I don't see the difference between transferring to N201 and transferring
to the 55 Garfield bus. Moreover, I have never once seen the 55 waiting
for the train, and I do end up taking the route extensively, including
late at night. The Dan Ryan/Garfield journey also takes a long time,
somehow.
>It seems like Hyde Park has better transit options late evening and overnight
>than other neighborhoods.
There is actually one more way: 47th Street station, transfer to #28.
I have never taken it. I must say that psychologically, none of the
CTA options for Hyde Park feel "better". Maybe because they are
complicated or time-consuming or inconvenient. The Cottage Grove
bus leaves me far away from any place I'd want to go to. I find
55th and Garfield the best way.
I miss the #1 bus, personally; it landed you somewhat more in the
middle of Hyde Park without having to transfer any place. It was
also a very smooth ride, and everyone seemed to know everyone.
(@)(@)
Tushar Samant <scri...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>Excuse me, Tiki is a fine place. Falcon Inn is lame and depressing.
i understand that the Falcon is a (black) gay bar. any confirmation on
this?
d, who pulled up in front of the falcon inn once, took one look at the
three or four really buff, mean-looking dudes in leather pants, and went
to jimmy's for an mgd.
--
===============================================================================
//r i n g s t a d . a n d r e a s//
===============================================================================
Tushar Samant
>What do you mean there are two routes, #55 and #4? The #55 doesn't
>come from downtown. The #4 runs along the west border of HP -- and
>sure, you can transfer to #55, but I'm not sure I'd like to hang
>out at the corner of 55th & Cottage late at night any more than I'd
>like to hang out at 55th and the Dan Ryan...
55th and Dan Ryan generally has people waiting there, and you can
also wait in the station because you can see the bus coming from
pretty far away. 55th and Cottage Grove is lonely, dimly lit, and
has all the weight of Washington Park bearing on it. It is very
easy to feel unsafe there, and it probably IS very unsafe. And
the #55 isn't coming any time soon...
Tushar Samant
>In article <79dhcg$2...@masu.wwa.com>,
>Tushar Samant <scri...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>Excuse me, Tiki is a fine place. Falcon Inn is lame and depressing.
>
>i understand that the Falcon is a (black) gay bar. any confirmation on
>this?
First time I heard this.
>d, who pulled up in front of the falcon inn once, took one look at the
>three or four really buff, mean-looking dudes in leather pants, and went
>to jimmy's for an mgd.
This just doesn't sound right. My recollection (I haven't been for
a long time) is a bunch of depressed old people drinking and Kenny
G or something playing in the background.
(@)(@)
Tushar Samant <scri...@pobox.com> wrote:
>arin...@panix.com writes:
>>i understand that the Falcon is a (black) gay bar. any confirmation on
>>this?
>>three or four really buff, mean-looking dudes in leather pants, and went
>>to jimmy's for an mgd.
>
>This just doesn't sound right. My recollection (I haven't been for
>a long time) is a bunch of depressed old people drinking and Kenny
>G or something playing in the background.
could be totally off the mark. from the horse's mouth, tho (the horse
being an employee of k&g who works as a bouncer on weekend; he described
the situation in more colourful language than i'd ever be able to muster).
and then there were the really buff, mean looking guys in leather pants.
one doesn't easily forget a thing like that.
possible that there are different crowds there. like, i popped in there
one afternoon looking for the ever-popular John "T. is for Slum" McGarry
and the place seemed pretty much like you describe it: older, pretty
working class. should've asked McG when i talked to him. ratz.
d, who secretly indulged in Cholies pizza.
gil b643
>
> Ple...@no.spam.to.enteract.com (David J. Craven) writes:
> |Metra does run a bit later, but you are looking at two fares unless coming
> |from downtown
>
> Until they see that the rest of the known universe has a unified fare system
> and get the notion in their heads that it's more attractive to tourists than
> flowerpots in streets, you're going to be caught in a maze of fares.
>
metra used to offer a "link up" with monthly rail passes that,
for an additional $36 allowed you to use cta and pace bus service - and
you got it all with a single pass (as the link up was a sticker afixed
to the rail pass. then they cut back use of the cta to rush hour use
only (i assume this was the cta's doing) when the cta changed their
fare structure. i think this was a major step backwards because it
made the cta (and metra) a less attractive option. i would have been
willing to pay more for the link up but i wasn't willing to buy a metra
pass and then pay an additional $88 to get a separate cta pass.
gil b643
>
> > When compared to Boston/Cambridge, Chicago/Hyde Park just doesn't.
>
> granted, however...
>
> > Cambridge is an awesome place to live,
>
> I'm kinda ambivalent vis-a-vis Cambridge -- I've seen it compared to
> Hyde Park on several occasions, but it's hardly a fair comparison given
> the scales involved. (Hyde Park has something like 50,000 residents,
> Cambridge has near 100,000.)
>
i think this population comparison is not meaningful - hyde park is a
neighborhood within chicago, and while cambridge is a city it is
effectively part of boston. so a fair comparison would be to identify
a comparable area within cambridge - e.g. the harvard/m.i.t. area and
compare that to hyde park.
> Some parts of Cambridge are interesting, others aren't. Cambridge was
> far more interesting a few years ago (I'm thinking summer '94) than it
> was this past summer, having spent most of my summers there. The chaos
> of gentrification has utterly killed off many interesting parts of
> Cambridge (Harvard Square; Central Square), and made other parts
> (Kendall Square, Alewife/Fresh Pond area) even more impossibly mind
> numbingly dull.
>
i wasn't real keen of the harvard square reconstruction (quite) a few
years back, and it's been a while since i lived there but the harvard
square area was always kind of upscale as far as i could tell. i don't
ever recall fresh pond and davis square as being happening areas so
if they aren't interesting to you, i don't ever recall them as being
such. kendall square was *especially* a not much going on kind of
place; before they built the new office/commercial buildings starting
in the early 1980's the only night time occupants of kendall square
were homeless people. the only restaurant there was the f&t diner,
which was an interesting name to statisticians but it was closed at
night. central square was somewhat of an improvement but that was
because from m.i.t. you could get easy bus service and you could shop
at the purity supreme supermarket. there were also a few restaurants
there as well in additional to the late night staple restaurant:
'jack (off) in the box'. but when i was living there the harvard square
area was the main place for night life.
> Even Davis Square in Somerville (Somerville!) is beginning to look like
> part of StarbucksWorld.
> oh well.. the point is, you can't quite compare the two. (I think it'd
> be neat to have Communist bookstores, in any case - Chicago has a better
> architectural bookstore, tho. Decisions, decisions!)
>
is "revolution books" closed? darn that m.i.t. expansionism.
> > whereas Hyde Park... seems like most people want to get out.
>
> This I don't dispute.
>
i guess this is one of those "new yorker view of the world" things...
gil b643
>
> Oh, I'd love to live in Printer's Row (my commuting costs would actually
> be around the same, since I usually make 3-5 roundtrips from Hyde Park
> on CTA/Metra weekly) -- it's just that I don't make anywhere near
> $40,000 a year!
> (and I likely won't for many years after graduation)
>
oh really? in what are you majoring?
> ($1000 a month one bedroom * 3 or 4 = $3000-4000 a month income * 12
> months = $36,000 to $48,000 annual income. 25-33% of one's gross income
> can be spent on housing, or at least that's what I've been told)
>
i haven't been scanning the chicago reader for apartments so i'll take
your word for it on the rents even though my intuition is that the
figure that you cite sounds a bit high and that lower priced units
are available in the area.
that said, hyde park rents are probably artificially low to students
since i get the impression that some of the apartment buildings in
the area give discounts to students. but when i was a graduate student
i had roommates so i always split rents on two bedroom units.
> Near North average 1 bedroom rents are around $1250/month, and I'm not
> affording that any day soon.
>
when i was looking at apartments in the streeterville area 2 or 3 years
ago i was seeing rents of about $1400 for a 1000 s.f. unit. they jack
quite a premium on 2 bedroom units over 1 bedroom units so i'm pretty
sure that you could do better than $1250 for a one bedroom unit, but
as i said above, i haven't looked recently.
Adam H. Kerman
Seth Tisue <ti...@cs.nwu.edu> wrote:
>In article <79bit8$ql2$1...@chinet.chinet.com>,
>Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.chinet.com> wrote:
>>"L" for a convenient connection. The 4 Cottage Grove runs all night from the
>>Loop for no transfer. So your campus has two all-night bus routes, while
>>Loyola in Rogers Park has none (the "L" runs all night). Northwestern
>>students in Evanston must transfer to the bizarre N201 at Howard after 1 am.
>>It seems like Hyde Park has better transit options late evening and overnight
>>than other neighborhoods.
>I find your reasoning very strange and your conclusion false.
>First of all, Loyola (where I lived for several years, until last
>week) doesn't *need* an all-night bus line -- it's right on the Red
>Line, which runs 24 hours. You mention this in passing as if it
>were an insigificant point. The convenience of being right on the
>Red Line almost can't be overstated.
I used to live near Loyola myself. When I lived there, the 151 Sheridan still
had night-owl service to Howard, and Devon still ran all night. Sorry, but
with only the Red Line service running, you don't have a transit OPTION.
>Thirdly, what's so bizarre about the N201? I've taken it, it's a
>reasonable substitute for the Purple Line after the Purple Line stops
>running. You don't have to catch it at Howard; you can catch it at
>Loyola or Granville, which are safer places to wait.
At first, you COULDN'T catch it at Howard bus loop; you had to flag it
down westbound on Howard across from the terminal. No one realized that.
While it was well-publicized that the 151 was being withdrawn overnight,
it was NOT publicized that N201 would serve a portion of the 151 between
Devon and Howard. Those poor saps don't know about their stealth bus service.
Resonable substitute for the Purple Line? It is no such thing. Are you
aware that it's far more costly to run the bus than the "L"? And no one
would EVER have to change at Howard if the Evanston shuttle were eliminated
and some of the Howard trains were through-routed to Linden.
There is no operational reason for the Evanston shuttle.
The N201 exists solely for political reasons.
I conceed the point: that's not so bizarre in this town.
>I've lived/studied for several years in Hyde Park, and I've also lived
>near Loyola and studied at Northwestern for several years, and I can
>definitely say that I felt far more stranded and constrained,
>transit-wise, in Hyde Park than I ever have around Loyola or Northwestern.
You have the choice of using the Metra Electric to Hyde Park. The Metra
line to Evanston has less service, and is farther from much of the Loop
and where Northwestern students live. Hyde Parkers didn't have that
awful transfer at Howard St. Hyde Parkers have the 6, the ONLY express
bus that runs 7 days a week.
For local service, you still have the 4 Cottage from the Loop. Granted,
a lot of local service has been lost, especially overnight.
Stranded? No way.
>Really, I love Hyde Park, but trying to claim that it has just as good
>access to public transportation as north side lakefront neighborhoods
>do is a far stretch.
Yes, it could be better. I'd like to see a lot more service on the
Metra Electric. But Hyde Park residents still have transit choices, even
overnight. Rogers Park and Evanston residents have a single line running.
When the next round of service cuts is implemented, Hyde Park will actually
be in a better position to retain service than Evanston or Rogers Park!
Adam H. Kerman
Tushar Samant <scri...@pobox.com> wrote:
>a...@chinet.chinet.com writes:
>>The 22 (Clark St.) runs all night. The 151 no longer runs all night to
>>Rogers Park; it turns back in Uptown.
>The Red Line is about three blocks away from the 151 route north of
>Irving Park, and from Wilson on, the Red Line has stops every three
>blocks or so, at least up to Loyola or Morse. So for that stretch,
>the 151 route does seem kind of superfluous.
>>(The N201 serves Sheridan Rd. north of Devon from Granville, though.)
>>On the south side, the 55 Garfield runs all night AND waits for the Dan Ryan
>>"L" for a convenient connection. The 4 Cottage Grove runs all night from the
>>Loop for no transfer. So your campus has two all-night bus routes, while
>>Loyola in Rogers Park has none (the "L" runs all night). Northwestern
>>students in Evanston must transfer to the bizarre N201 at Howard after 1 am.
>I don't see the difference between transferring to N201 and transferring
>to the 55 Garfield bus. Moreover, I have never once seen the 55 waiting
>for the train, and I do end up taking the route extensively, including
>late at night. The Dan Ryan/Garfield journey also takes a long time,
>somehow.
Sure, because you've missed a connection and don't have a sheltered
waiting area.
To be honest with everyone, I've never attempted this transfer overnight
myself. Let me just say that the Garfield bus is scheduled to layover
at the Dan Ryan station and wait for specific train connections.
If it isn't doing this, something is very wrong. Do me a favor. The next
time you attempt this, please write down the times you boarded the Dan Ryan
and got off at Garfield and the run number (in the motorman's window) and
what time the Garfield bus departed and its run number.
I'll compare it to the schedule and yell at the appropriate bureaucrat.
You do carry a Garfield and Dan Ryan schedule with you, right? At least
try to make the scheduled connections and see what happens.
>>It seems like Hyde Park has better transit options late evening and overnight
>>than other neighborhoods.
>There is actually one more way: 47th Street station, transfer to #28.
>I have never taken it.
Bear in mind that this route runs pretty late (till 1:30 am) but doesn't
resume till 4:30 am.
>I must say that psychologically, none of the CTA options for Hyde Park feel
>"better". Maybe because they are complicated or time-consuming or
>inconvenient.
Complicated? No. North siders must transfer to get to Evanston, why can't
south siders handle it?
Inconvenient? Yes, if CTA is blowing scheduled connections.
Please log this and let me know. I will get to the bottom of it.
>The Cottage Grove bus leaves me far away from any place I'd want to go to.
It is true that it only serves the west side of Hyde Park and it's a hike
to the lakefront.
>I find 55th and Garfield the best way.
I don't know where you live, so I don't know if I'd travel that way myself.
>I miss the #1 bus, personally; it landed you somewhat more in the
>middle of Hyde Park without having to transfer any place. It was
>also a very smooth ride, and everyone seemed to know everyone.
It never should have been cancelled since its ridership numbers seemed to
justify the service.
Why do you never use the Metra Electric?
Adam H. Kerman
In article <36BA7C77...@nospam.tezcat.com>,
gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>metra used to offer a "link up" with monthly rail passes that,
>for an additional $36 allowed you to use cta and pace bus service - and
>you got it all with a single pass (as the link up was a sticker afixed
>to the rail pass. then they cut back use of the cta to rush hour use
>only (i assume this was the cta's doing) when the cta changed their
>fare structure. i think this was a major step backwards because it
>made the cta (and metra) a less attractive option.
What ron writes with lower-case letters is correct. In some systems, like
Philadelphia, all local transit service within the zone of your commuter
rail pass is included. In Montreal, transfers are accepted on commuter rail.
In Melbourne, they offer a great variety of passes that are accepted on
all modes.
>i would have been willing to pay more for the link up but i wasn't willing to
>buy a metra pass and then pay an additional $88 to get a separate cta pass.
You and most other riders. There is quite a lot of revenue lost.
I must carry my CTA transit card, my Pace punch card (since Pace overcharges
on the CTA card), and my Metra punch card. I sure wish there were some
umbrella agency that would coordinate fares.
Tushar Samant
>>late at night. The Dan Ryan/Garfield journey also takes a long time,
>>somehow.
>
>Sure, because you've missed a connection and don't have a sheltered
>waiting area.
That could be it, but there is also the feeling that the train and the
bus are poking along forever. I wish I had data, though.
>To be honest with everyone, I've never attempted this transfer overnight
>myself. Let me just say that the Garfield bus is scheduled to layover
>at the Dan Ryan station and wait for specific train connections.
OK, in four years I have NEVER seen a #55 waiting, eastbound or westbound.
And when I have come in from further west (or gone there), the bus has
never waited at the L station. The bus would have arrived before the
train at least a few times, I'd think...
>If it isn't doing this, something is very wrong. Do me a favor. The next
>time you attempt this, please write down the times you boarded the Dan Ryan
>and got off at Garfield and the run number (in the motorman's window) and
>what time the Garfield bus departed and its run number.
OK.
>I'll compare it to the schedule and yell at the appropriate bureaucrat.
What is your relation with them?
>You do carry a Garfield and Dan Ryan schedule with you, right? At least
>try to make the scheduled connections and see what happens.
I don't carry a schedule. I generally just know what hour it is and
have some estimate of what my maximum wait should be, 5 minutes or
8 or 12...
>>There is actually one more way: 47th Street station, transfer to #28.
>>I have never taken it.
>
>Bear in mind that this route runs pretty late (till 1:30 am) but doesn't
>resume till 4:30 am.
Didn't know that.
>>I must say that psychologically, none of the CTA options for Hyde Park feel
>>"better". Maybe because they are complicated or time-consuming or
>>inconvenient.
>
>Complicated? No. North siders must transfer to get to Evanston, why can't
>south siders handle it?
Perhaps because they (Hyde Parkers) are comparing to the convenience of
the #1 or #6, and not to the inconvenience of the North siders.
>>I find 55th and Garfield the best way.
>
>I don't know where you live, so I don't know if I'd travel that way myself.
I live near Bryn Mawr, actually, on Sheridan. I visit friends in
Hyde Park from time to time.
>Why do you never use the Metra Electric?
Simply because I can't stick to a schedule, and I have a CTA pass.
When I lived in Hyde Park and worked downtown, I took the Metra
whenever I could.
flaccid erudition
>>
>>Well.. I know a number of people who have been mugged while waiting...
>
>I know one person who was mugged and beat up there, but, to
>contribute more anecdotal reports, I've been there dozens of
>times late at night (midnight - 3 am) and never got hurt or
>robbed. Of course I'm one badass m~th~f~ker so people just
>leave me alone. The most hassle I ever got at that stop was
>from people asking for change.
I have to me, too. I know one guy who was held up there, but only for
money. No beatings ensued. I have taken the 55 from Western, from Dan
Ryan, several times at whack late hours, and the worst that has
happened was that one time I got into a weird conversation with a dude
who was convincing me that the horrid reek of beer that exuded from me
(I had just been doused by a full Lowenbrau) was actually a pleasant
smell. The bus has been very good about hanging out a bit and waiting
for people to come off the red line. I doubt I would do this with the
green line.
Unlike Mr tert, though, I'm a pansyboy.
Though I don't fear Daddy's.
--m
--
<moacir p. de sa pereira> moa...@zuikis.uchicago.edu
I suspect 2 things of you: You...found the word "misogyny" in your thesaurus
and felt the need to use it over and over to show how smart you are, and you
are a first semester psychology student. --RuddF...@worldnet.att.net
gil b643
>
> I pitied the people who paid cash, though, on the MBTA because there
> aren't any rail/bus/commuter transfers. The system's cheap, tho, with
> rail 85c/ride and bus 60c/ride.
>
as i recall hearing, the cta is the most expensive transit system in
the nation. it's more expensive than new york.
Adam H. Kerman
>>I'll compare it to the schedule and yell at the appropriate [CTA] bureaucrat.
>What is your relation with them?
Just yelling.
>>You do carry a Garfield and Dan Ryan schedule with you, right? At least
>>try to make the scheduled connections and see what happens.
>I don't carry a schedule. I generally just know what hour it is and
>have some estimate of what my maximum wait should be, 5 minutes or
>8 or 12...
You need to start doing this. Get current schedules for both Dan Ryan
and the Garfield and take careful notes.
gil b643
>
> Building a rail line in a freeway median is a STUPID idea. Stupid,
> stupid, stupid. It's inconvenient, it's downright mean (unless the
> trains are faster than the cars, it emphasizes the rich/poor dichotomy
> that underlies transit service in the US), and it kills any opportunity
> for creating transit-friendly communities. No 'transit village' is ever
> going to sit astride a freeway.
>
i don't quite see your point here, other than i find it to be a
plausible one for a person from the southeast since many people
outside of the northeast corridor view mass transit ridership as
an indication that you can't afford a car. in the northeast
corridor, however, that sentiment would not be assumed.
as far as the advisiblity of putting a mass transit line in the
median of an expressway, i think that it makes a great deal of
sense to do so. i mean the freeway system is for transit anyway
so it uses what would otherwise be an empty median to place a
transit system. as far as the speed of trains relative to cars
you should ride them during rush hour when the cars are moving at
a snail's pace.
> Oh yes -- the only mention the University gives of the Dan Ryan/55
> option is that "it's dangerous. Don't try it, ever, since it's
> inherently unsafe." The university also pretends that the Green Line
> doesn't exist (and it doesn't on 63rd anymore, thanks to you know who!)
>
the university of chicago has a reputation to protect and doesn't
want students to be victims of crime; the minute the news reports
indicate that a university of chicago student was the victim of a
crime too often, people would begin to think of the campus as being
in a dangerous place. the fact is, campuses in general downplay
crime, even crimes on campus for this very reason - so that parents
won't be fearful of sending their sons & daughers there.
> I use the Metra to get to work and to play -- it's my third home,
> especially since both work and home are rather close by. For some
> reason, the University is under the mistaken notion that the last train
> is at 11:20.
> It's a real pain to wait an hour or an hour and a half for a train,
> though at least the Van Buren station has restrooms.
>
> However, I've missed that 12:50 train many times... usually, it's easier
> to stay out until the 5:15 train at that point than to try to get back
> to HP by CTA.
>
i think that it would be easier to take a taxi myself. but on your
point about the 12:50 departure; that train leaves too early to be
used by a person who is out on the town. if you are at a north side
night spot, you have to leave no later than midnight just to have a
chance to get to the station by 12:50. then you end up looking at
your watch while you're out and about.
then again, since you like the mbta system this is probably not a
problem for you. one of the big drawbacks to the mbta is that they
shut the whole system down at around midnight (or sooner, i don't
recall), so there wasn't an option of whether to take the metra
electric, or #4 (transferring to the #55) bus.
Payton Chung
> Payton Chung wrote:
> > make anywhere near $40,000 a year!
> > (and I likely won't for many years after graduation)
> oh really? in what are you majoring?
Public policy studies, as of two weeks ago.
I'll probably end up working in something completely different (well,
maybe tangentially related) by selling out, but I'm an idealist.
> i haven't been scanning the chicago reader for apartments so i'll
> take your word for it on the rents even though my intuition is that
> the figure that you cite sounds a bit high
Rent figures are from the Reader and the Tribune:
one 1BR apartment listed in ZIP code 60605 (South Loop) this week in the
Reader, 'incredible value at $1030'
12 1BR apartments listed in ZIP code 60611 (Michigan Avenue,
Streeterville, southern tip of Gold Coast) this week in the Reader,
$700-$1450 (excluding one ad for subsidized senior housing)
The Trib has a 'Chicago-area average rents' page at
http://cgi.chicago.tribune.com/homes/referenc/rents.htm/ which has
fairly accurate data.
regards -PC
--
(Payton Chung opines for himself * visit http://happyzoo.bourgeois.com)
| 'Rather than witnessing the dawn of a human rights "golden age", |
| the 21st century will be ushered in by hunger, poverty, intolerance |
| and violence. After 50 years of human rights achievement, the |
| greatest challenges are yet to come.' --Sir Zelman Cowen, Australia |
Payton Chung
[re: UIC]
> think about it. They actually eminent-domained and leveled nearly
> twice the area they needed, and didn't bother to put so much as
> parking lots on huge segments of it for 20 years. Interesting, eh?
Interesting, yes, but UIC was originally intended to be a commuter
campus. Lots of parking would be needed.
That's not to say, of course, that after spending however many hundreds
of millions on campus buildings and on that frightening interchange that
they couldn't have just built parking decks.
Payton Chung
> >> Dan Ryan "L" for a convenient connection.
Convenient? Every time I've waited for it, I've been stranded atop a
dark bridge twenty-odd feet above the Dan Ryan with a glorious view of
the Robert Taylor Homes, winds gusting around me (and unable to chat
with friends due to the expressway noise) and I've always been cold.
Very cold.
Building a rail line in a freeway median is a STUPID idea. Stupid,
stupid, stupid. It's inconvenient, it's downright mean (unless the
trains are faster than the cars, it emphasizes the rich/poor dichotomy
that underlies transit service in the US), and it kills any opportunity
for creating transit-friendly communities. No 'transit village' is ever
going to sit astride a freeway.
Oh yes -- the only mention the University gives of the Dan Ryan/55
option is that "it's dangerous. Don't try it, ever, since it's
inherently unsafe." The university also pretends that the Green Line
doesn't exist (and it doesn't on 63rd anymore, thanks to you know who!)
> You do carry a Garfield and Dan Ryan schedule with you, right?
A 55 schedule, yes, but the Red Line schedules are rather pointless.
(Leaves 95th at X, arrives Washington Y, arrives Howard Z. Gee, thanks.)
> Bear in mind that this route [28] runs pretty late (till 1:30 am) but
> doesn't resume till 4:30 am.
It used to run all night, but...
I prefer the 28 since it deposits me closer to home than the 55.
However, the transfer is messed up: you not only have to cross 47th
street, but the bus stands at LaSalle and 47th (right next to the exit
ramps), not at the bus stop across from the station. No shelter, nothing
to mark it except a mailbox.
> Why do you never use the Metra Electric?
I use the Metra to get to work and to play -- it's my third home,
especially since both work and home are rather close by. For some
reason, the University is under the mistaken notion that the last train
is at 11:20.
It's a real pain to wait an hour or an hour and a half for a train,
though at least the Van Buren station has restrooms.
However, I've missed that 12:50 train many times... usually, it's easier
to stay out until the 5:15 train at that point than to try to get back
to HP by CTA.
I'd love Metra even more if it offered transfers to the CTA (and not
just those Rush Hour Express $1 buses, either, or Metra Link-Up, since I
don't have a monthly pass)
Payton Chung
> like Philadelphia, all local transit service within the zone of your
> commuter rail pass is included. In Montreal, transfers are accepted
> on commuter rail. In Melbourne, they offer a great variety of passes
> that are accepted on all modes.
I loved my monthly pass in Boston -- any local (but no suburban express)
buses, any rail service including subway, light rail, and commuter rail
out to Zone B. Basically, any travel within the City of Boston and
Cambridge and their pre-WW2 suburbs, all for $46/month. All of the
transit service (except in the far outer suburbs) is by a unified state
agency, which makes doing something like that much much easier.
[wait a sec -- RTA is a unified agency, and CTA is part of them...]
I pitied the people who paid cash, though, on the MBTA because there
aren't any rail/bus/commuter transfers. The system's cheap, tho, with
rail 85c/ride and bus 60c/ride.
Aaron M. Renn
> as i recall hearing, the cta is the most expensive transit system in
> the nation. it's more expensive than new york.
The base fare in New York is $1.50, same as Chicago. There are some hefty
surcharges on some express bus routes. Commuter rail is significantly more
expensive than Chicago. But based on the overall cost of living, you are
probably right that Chicago has the most expensive transit system in
America. Don't forget though, that NYCTA has a higher farebox recovery
ratio than the CTA. But they carry a lot more passengers. Over 1 billion
people ride the subway there every year compared to only about 125 million
on the Chicago L.
--
Aaron M. Renn (ar...@urbanophile.com) http://www.urbanophile.com/arenn/
Greg Whitman
>> >>On the south side, the 55 Garfield runs all night AND waits for the
>> >> Dan Ryan "L" for a convenient connection.
>
>Convenient? Every time I've waited for it, I've been stranded atop a
>dark bridge twenty-odd feet above the Dan Ryan with a glorious view of
>the Robert Taylor Homes, winds gusting around me (and unable to chat
>with friends due to the expressway noise) and I've always been cold.
>Very cold.
You've got several other stops to choose from within a couple
of blocks either way. I have taken to standing by the gas
station on the West side of the Dan Ryan.
Aaron M. Renn
> as far as the advisiblity of putting a mass transit line in the
> median of an expressway, i think that it makes a great deal of
> sense to do so. i mean the freeway system is for transit anyway
> so it uses what would otherwise be an empty median to place a
> transit system. as far as the speed of trains relative to cars
> you should ride them during rush hour when the cars are moving at
> a snail's pace.
Justifying a rail line in the center of a freeway becuase it "would
otherwise be an empty median" doesn't strike me as a particularly strong
argument. Rail in freeway medians is bad for a whole host of reasons, many
of which Payton mentioned in his last message:
Greg Whitman
>te...@xochi.tezcat.com (Greg Whitman) posted:
>>>
>>>Well.. I know a number of people who have been mugged while waiting...
>>
>>I know one person who was mugged and beat up there, but, to
>>contribute more anecdotal reports, I've been there dozens of
>>times late at night (midnight - 3 am) and never got hurt or
>>robbed. Of course I'm one badass m~th~f~ker so people just
>>leave me alone. The most hassle I ever got at that stop was
>>from people asking for change.
>
>I have to me, too. I know one guy who was held up there, but only for
>money. No beatings ensued. I have taken the 55 from Western, from Dan
>Ryan, several times at whack late hours, and the worst that has
>happened was that one time I got into a weird conversation with a dude
>who was convincing me that the horrid reek of beer that exuded from me
>(I had just been doused by a full Lowenbrau) was actually a pleasant
>smell. The bus has been very good about hanging out a bit and waiting
>for people to come off the red line. I doubt I would do this with the
>green line.
>
>Unlike Mr tert, though, I'm a pansyboy.
I was kinda joking there, a bit, you know, about being a badass.
>Though I don't fear Daddy's.
Me neither.
Adam H. Kerman
Payton Chung <pay...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>You do carry a Garfield and Dan Ryan schedule with you, right?
>A 55 schedule, yes, but the Red Line schedules are rather pointless.
>(Leaves 95th at X, arrives Washington Y, arrives Howard Z. Gee, thanks.)
You've obviously never seen one, then. The Dan Ryan schedule does not
list the Howard side of the Red Line. If you obtained one and carried it
with you, you might discover that there are scheduled connections.
>>Bear in mind that this route [28] runs pretty late (till 1:30 am) but
>>doesn't resume till 4:30 am.
>It used to run all night, but...
>I prefer the 28 since it deposits me closer to home than the 55.
>However, the transfer is messed up: you not only have to cross 47th
>street, but the bus stands at LaSalle and 47th (right next to the exit
>ramps), not at the bus stop across from the station. No shelter, nothing
>to mark it except a mailbox.
I didn't know the sign was missing. It makes its loop east of the expressway
so it really doesn't pass by the station entrance like the 47th St. bus
does.
Do you want to help do something about this situation? Contact me.
>I'd love Metra even more if it offered transfers to the CTA (and not
>just those Rush Hour Express $1 buses, either, or Metra Link-Up, since I
>don't have a monthly pass)
Of course, Link-Up is valid at all times on Pace, but restricted to rush
hour on CTA. It wouldn't do you any good.
You want to work on this issue?
gil b643
because of some rich/poor dichotomy reason? as far as the transit
friendly thing goes, i don't know how "transit friendly" it would
be to have elevated trains running next to your window at all hours
of the day and night. when i was considering moving to another part
of chicago a few years ago i stayed *away* from places that were right
next to elevated tracks. some people may prefer such, but i certainly
don't.
the placement of tracks on a freeway median does mean that you are
likely to connect to a bus line to get to your home but then in
chicago bus service is the primary means of mass transportation anyway.
chicago does not have anywhere near the miles of rail that new york
has so the way to be "transit friendly" in chicago is going to rely
primarily upon bus service which is being cut back as has been
discussed time and again during this thread.
another issue with "transit friendliness" would be the placement of
rail stops. there is no benefit to having a rail running next to
your window if the stop is 1/2 mile away - then you're no better off
than if the rail line had been placed on a freeway median. but the
downside to frequent rail stops is that rapid transit becomes not so
rapid. this is a problem with the cta rapid transit system as pointed
out by richard belcaster a few years ago.
Adam H. Kerman
gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>as far as the transit friendly thing goes, i don't know how "transit
>friendly" it would be to have elevated trains running next to your window
>at all hours of the day and night.
Which is noisier, an expressway or an "L" line? (The lines on embankment,
in a cut, or at grade are very quiet. That's Howard north of Wilson,
Skokie Swift, Douglas and Ravenswood outer ends.)
>when i was considering moving to another part of chicago a few years ago
>i stayed *away* from places that were right next to elevated tracks.
You didn't move next to an expressway either, did you?
>the placement of tracks on a freeway median does mean that you are
>likely to connect to a bus line to get to your home
Why is that? Because it's damn difficult to WALK to these stations, given
the need to cross ramps and the extra distance involved. Expressways by
their very nature promote auto use, not transit use. So that means any
nearby development will be surrounded by vast parking lots. On the other
hand, a rail station tends to promote denser development with restaurants
and services to walk to.
There are always tradeoffs. Our iron and steel "L" structure makes transit
a bit noisy. There are tradeoffs. The residences immediately next to the
"L" got their property a little cheaper thanks to the noise, but they
benefit tremendously (with higher land values) by being within walking
distance of an "L" station.
The negative impact of expressways is far, far greater, and residential
land loses a lot of value next to one.
>another issue with "transit friendliness" would be the placement of
>rail stops. there is no benefit to having a rail running next to
>your window if the stop is 1/2 mile away - then you're no better off
>than if the rail line had been placed on a freeway median.
I'd agree with you, but given that there are no examples of this locally,
I don't know why you mention it.
>but the downside to frequent rail stops is that rapid transit becomes not so
>rapid.
It favors closer-in development. This is a benefit. However, the Green Line
lost nearly all of its closer-in stops in the 50's.
Tushar Samant
to go into at this point... But the last time I talked to someone at
the 55th/Dan Ryan stop, here's what happened. I just asked this guy
--he was about my age--if he knew where the hell the CTA had moved
the bus stop during construction. So we got talking. Then he says,
"You look like you are a poet".
I am like--hot damn, out of the mouths of the people themselves!
Obviously I am just brimming with the soul thing, and intensity
of perception and attunement to the tragic pitch of life itself.
So I say, "Thank you, that I am, that I am."
Dude: "Looks like you are pretty good too."
Me: "Oh, I do awlright, he he he"
Dude: "I try to write poetry too. But when I do my mind
just starts tripping man"
Me: (Wisdom of the Ages voice) "Hey, that's half the reason
to write. Be cool and don't worry too much about the
final product. I mean that's important too but--"
Dude: "I think you'll be interested in this book of POEMS
BY STREETWISE VENDORS."
*DAMN*
Well, I blew $5 on that book, probably the 15th lamer that day
to fall for the stratagem. But super-smoothness deserves a reward...
pete in chicago
> "You look like you are a poet"...<editing>
you sound like a poet - and a very good one
--
how's my mascara...?
gil b643
>
> In article <36BBEBD3...@nospam.tezcat.com>,
> gil b643 <ron...@nospam.tezcat.com> wrote:
>
> >as far as the transit friendly thing goes, i don't know how "transit
> >friendly" it would be to have elevated trains running next to your window
> >at all hours of the day and night.
>
> Which is noisier, an expressway or an "L" line? (The lines on embankment,
> in a cut, or at grade are very quiet. That's Howard north of Wilson,
> Skokie Swift, Douglas and Ravenswood outer ends.)
>
nice try, why don't you tell us what's *south* of these areas?
embankments running through the near north, lincoln park, lakeview, &c?
> >the placement of tracks on a freeway median does mean that you are
> >likely to connect to a bus line to get to your home
>
> Why is that? Because it's damn difficult to WALK to these stations, given
> the need to cross ramps and the extra distance involved. Expressways
>
i've taken the red line down the dan ryan and haven't found those
stations hard to walk to at all. the stations tend to be on overpasses.
you've got to walk up and down stairs but tell me of an elevated (or
subway) station where you don't have to do the same?
> by
> their very nature promote auto use, not transit use. So that means any
> nearby development will be surrounded by vast parking lots.
>
the red line stations on the dan ryan at which i've stopped have
shoppoing areas nearby. the only parking lots are the ones associated
with the shopping centers.
the situation that you describe is more characteristic of commuter
stations such as those on the blue line near o'hare airport, than
it is of in-city stations on the red line.
> >another issue with "transit friendliness" would be the placement of
> >rail stops. there is no benefit to having a rail running next to
> >your window if the stop is 1/2 mile away - then you're no better off
> >than if the rail line had been placed on a freeway median.
>
> I'd agree with you, but given that there are no examples of this locally,
> I don't know why you mention it.
>
you might want to look at the orange line if you want an example
(at least one that comes to my mind). it's been a while since i rode
the orange line, but the stations are more spaced out than on some of
the other lines.
dmet
wrote:
<snip>
>i think that it would be easier to take a taxi myself.
Actually, getting a taxi to go to Hyde Park at night is a very difficult
task even if you are dressed in a suit and are not a minority. The
drivers are fearful of the South side; many will come back empty rather
than pick up a fare down there after dark.
Dennis Metcalfe