Message about CL451 crib session

[Nimish Kulkarni]

You can check your End-Sem marks on 30.04.15 according to slots mentioned below:

Group 1= 3:00-15 pm
Group 2= 3:20-35
Group 3= 3:40-55
Group 4= 4:00-15
Group 5= 4:20-35
Group 6= 4:40-55
Group 7= 5:00-15
Group 8= 5:20-35
Group 9= 5:40-55
Group 0= 6:00-15

Groups are same as project groups.

Venue: CAD Centre

Students should come a bit early and see solutions on display. 

Check the endsem papers for totaling mistakes and ensure that all written answers in your paper are corrected. No questions/cribs on marks given to a particular answer will be entertained as papers have been corrected with great care.

Students can check the total score in mid sem, endsem, all quizes and project. 

Grades will not be revealed.

[Pritish Shardul]

Sir cancelled the crib session..

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[Nimish Kulkarni]

We have a situation.

I just spoke with one of the TA. sir told them to check all the answer sheets (all four questions) once again with very tough grading scheme. They all sat together and finished rechecking all the papers. He told me that on average each student have lost about 10 marks after rechecking. sir is very angry and grading is most likely to be tough.

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-Nimish Kulkarni

Fourth Year Undergraduate,

Chemical Engineering Department,

IIT Bombay.

[Nimish Kulkarni]

In the afternoon, I sent an apology mail to sir on which he replied 'its alright' and told me that he will upload the grades in 2-3 days (No crib now).

[Akshay Saxena]

why is he angry?

[Abhinay Korukonda]

Yeah man, why is he angry? Can you please make sure that he won't give FRs like last time ? Can something be done about it?

[Nimish Kulkarni]

There was a issue during crib of group 2. There was some argument between students and TA. He heard that and told you are not supposed to crib. We already gave you more marks than you deserve and got angry.

[Rahul Kumar]

Why should all other students suffer just because of two students' misbehavior??

Warm Regards,

Rahul Kumar
Fourth Year UG

Chem. Engg. IIT Bombay

[Khushal Melana]

What I have heard is that Prof. himself gave wrong solution of 1st question to TAs, for them to check the copies with (something on the lines whether the feed would go through the reactor or SMB).

It was quite natural for the students to argue over it (so it isn't something any other group wouldn't have done) and TA was adamant on not giving any credit. I heard a lady TA wasn't even listening to what students were trying to tell, and instead was shouting on them which created all the ruckus.

[Pritish Shardul]

Two students..?? 

Pritish Shardul,
4th year UG,
Chemical Engineering,
IIT Bombay, Mumbai.
+91-9892923751

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Khushal Melana <khushal...@gmail.com> wrote:

What I have heard is that Prof. himself gave wrong solution of 1st question to TAs, for them to check the copies with (something on the lines whether the feed would go through the reactor or SMB).

It was quite natural for the students to argue over it (so it isn't something any other group wouldn't have done) and TA was adamant on not giving any credit. I heard a lady TA wasn't even listening to what students were trying to tell, and instead was shouting on them which created all the ruckus.

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[Akshay Saxena]

If what Melana is saying is correct, we should first confirm this with Prof. Mohrir when he has a cool head and talk him out of doing what we all know he is going to do. If he does not entertain us, we have no choice but to involve the dean. I know he doesn't have any power. But if he is on our side, we can make a better case. I don't think we have a better option anyway. People who get an FR will have to wait  during summer (IF the course runs). This can be very harmful if you have a Univ admit and your joining is before July. There are high chances that the course does not run at all and we have to wait for a year. This will create problems for people who are going for a job as well. The stakes for us are really high, and sitting back can be very dangerous.

[Mohit Jain]

+1 to Akshay.

But before that it would be better if someone from group 0/1/2 could confirm whether the argument with the TAs was regarding the solution as mentioned by Melana or just a personal crib. Prof. will obviously talk to the TA again regarding this matter and in case if they contradict with what we report to the prof this will just make the situation more worse.

Regards,

Mohit Jain,

Chemical Engineering,

IIT Bombay

[ajay kumar]

I think we should wait till grades are out. You will make him more furious ( if he is already angry ) with class. You can't just tell him about "what you know he is going to do"

Ajay Kumar 

Chemical Engineering Undergraduate 

IIT Bombay, India 

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 11:43 PM, Akshay Saxena <akshay.i...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ajay kumar]

Akshay, your point is positive but we don't know about how prof. will perceive your (or others) conversation with him. He can it in negative way. Last time he gave 32 FRs , this time that number may surge to 50 

Ajay Kumar 

Chemical Engineering Undergraduate 

IIT Bombay, India 

[Akshay Saxena]

Ajay bhai grade ke baad sabka reply ek he rahega, "what's done is done, ma chudao ab" 

I have neither attempted the question nor studied for it and therefore can't convince the professor of what's right or wrong. Getting a bad grade which terribly hurts your CPI is better than failing your friends. Among the people who were arguing with the TA, someone please come forward and try to explain to sir in an extremely humble tone. If at all he is adamant and disagrees with you, just stop arguing and agree with him.

I am going to the professor tomorrow, around 12 pm. Anyone who wants to join can join. All good negotiators, this is the time to use your skills for the good of your friends. 

I am totally helpless, I can't afford an FR. And there is no way I am going to raise my voice against the professor tomorrow. There is no need for you to worry that I will make the situation any worse. All I am going to tell him is what is the stake for us and remain very humble while doing this. 

Besides, I hear that everyone below 40 marks is getting an FR. In the class, when it was told, the number was 30. This will be my last argument if everything is fruitless.

[Pritish Shardul]

This is what happened..

Solution and marking scheme were displayed in the sitting area outside the lab (Sir's cabin is inside lab) in CAD centre. Students were supposed to look at the answer key outside only and then check the paper inside. 

Group 1 came and went. I don't know why they didn't point out the inconsistency in the given solutions. When I was checking my answer sheet, I found out that they have deducted marks in the Heat Exchanger Network design question (Q.3.) if people have not used the approximation of delT=1 deg C (in streams where only latent heat comes in play). 

As the TA's were present there, I asked them about it. They said that's how the question is solved. I told them that considering delT=1, is just an approximation and yielding same results without the approximation should be the better answer. The TA's were adamant and asked me to write down my crib. That's when sir arrived. After talking with sir, he told the TA's that not considering delT = 1 is also a valid solution. That was the first mistake corrected.

Sir also asked the TA to curtail 2 marks from the student who argue (Which itself doesn't make sense) and went in cabin. As the TA's were blindly following sir's answer key, any talk with them was converted to argument initiated by them only. After pointing out a mistake in the solution, sir should have realised that there are errors in the answers and students should be allowed to clear their doubts.

Later chaitanya (cp) asked the TA's about question 1. Me and potti (and pranshul I guess) backed him and asked them why sending the feed through SMB first is given wrong when it is yielding better results. The female TA (Anshu Shukla) said 'the feed is always sent through reactor first. What's the point of using SMB first. Please see the marking scheme and solution outside. Don't argue. etc.' (Whatever she said throughout the scene was at a decibel level much more than required).

Again sir came, we asked sir the same. Sir was like - how can you send a pure A feed through SMB first. That's when we told him that the feed was equimolar and not pure A. Sir asked for question paper to check it and realised that whatever solution he had made was for Pure feed. Sir said to the TAs that we'll re-evaluate Q.1. again for the entire batch. That was the second mistake in the answer key.

He went back to cabin, then pranshul was explaining his solution to the lady TA in a polite way (I guess he had represented the same answer in a different way or something) when suddenly she started shouting (a perfect analogy would be the shouting in street fights). Anybody would tell that it was deliberate! Completely unnecessary.

However, her shouts reached sir and he came storming out of his cabin, totally thinking that it was student's fault, he cancelled the crib. Said that he's not bound to show us marks. Got very angry. Said 'complaint to director, governor or the president, anybody you want'. Compared the event to last year and talked about tough grading, I don't know what exactly he said after coming out of the lab as I wasn't there as the moment.

I don't know why the TA reacted like that. Maybe because she was already turned down by prof/students on two answers or whatever. But that's where it triggered off sir.

Whatever happened there was immensely illogical and inappropriate. Anybody inside the LAB during the whole event can back me up on this. One cannot have the liberty of being wrong and stubborn at the same time. Arguments are bound to arise in these situations. 

Even if group 2 had went peacefully, this would have happened somewhere between group 3 to group 10 for sure. So students are not to blame here. This is what I think and it might differ from what you think.

However considering the delicacy of the situation we should decide what is to be done about this. Nobody wants their batch-mates to get FR, especially at this crucial time as saxena mentioned. We should do whatever it takes to contain the situation.

Thanks and Regards,

Pritish Shardul,
4th year UG,
Chemical Engineering,
IIT Bombay, Mumbai.
+91-9892923751

[Akshat Jain]

Can we speak to TAs and simplify the matter instead of directly speaking to Sir?

[Bhanu Nagpal]

i think tomorrow we should just apologize to sir about the whole matter even if it was not our mistake. If we start saying anything about TA it will only going to make the matter worse. TA will never gonna accept her mistake and again it will come to us. We should don't even think about talking to sir or TA about any question and just accept the solutions as it is.

I know what I said is not right but just think those who have less marks because of wrong solutions will not able to get any good marks after rechecking also( already on an average there is decrease in around 10 marks) but they can get passed if sir wants to pass them and decrease the marks for FR.

Also even if tomorrow sir is not ready to do anything then also don't go to dean as dean cant do anything about giving the grades, its totally decide by prof and by now i think we all know how sir is going to react if we try to involve dean in this matter. He will surely going to give more FRs. 

So tomorrow just apologise to sir for everything and accept that it was our mistake (even if it wasn't). 

Thanks & Regards

Bhanu Nagpal

[Rishi Vaishnav]

Ok  +1 to Bhanu

Guys Listen,

Even i am from group 2 and am very well aware about everything that during the crib.

There were cribs and it was obv because of wrong solutions and error on behalf of the TA.

So blaming any 2-3 people specifically doesn't make sense...

But Its high time that we all realize that not everything in such situation is logical!!

As akshay just pointed out that there is a lot at stake, however realize that we have a little say..

its dumb to take any step ahead that can have any subjective outcome. 

(with that i strongly oppose going to dean/complaining/cribbing about TA's etc..)

The only chance that we have is to just apologize and forget all cribs. 

Many of you might not agree with me, knowing that logically you gave a right ans and you deserve more marks

but open your eyes and look at what all has happened. Its better to get a 7/8 on your current total than getting a 4/5 on a higher total score.

I request all hot heads to stay away from this discussion (no offence meant, but for once leave it to ur batchmates)

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:03 AM, Akshat Jain <jainak...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Rishi Vaishnav
4th Year Undergraduate

Chemical Engineering
IIT Bombay
Phone: +91-8879490822

[Rishi Vaishnav]

Sorry for the long mail, main likh rha tha utne mein bhanu mc ne bhi post kr diya.

(Please take it lightly, just chilling...)

[Hersh Manek]

I agree with Rishi! 

And take it at face value, they have been lenient while checking, so you might not have got the marks in that particular question, but you were compensated elsewhere. Its sad that last year's incident happened and it doesnt make sense to drag it forward.

Let it go. And I agree with Bhanu, lets go apologize

Thank you

Regards

Hersh Manek

IIT Bombay

Ph- +91-9892437180

[nooruddin kapadia]

OK, seems legitimate, decide 4 people as representatives for this. And plz do it in absence of TAs only and no negotiation, just very short apology. 

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Rishi Vaishnav <rishivai...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Regards

Nooruddin Kapadia

Undergraduate Chemical Engineer

IIT Bombay

[Prathamesh Gaitonde]

Its a holiday today (1st May). Sir wont be available in his lab. Nimish has already sent an apology mail. I knew the situation that had happened last year and from my experience, he is very adamant and wont listen to any personal apologies at this moment. Though if you all still want to give it a try, go ahead. It wont harm anyone but remember 'Dont speak rudely to him. Accept whatever he says and humbly try to convince him if you can,'

Its better to involve our FacAds and HOD (after he arrives from his vacation) at this moment and just make them aware of the situation so that necessary actions will be taken by them if needed in summers.

Prathamesh Gaitonde

Department General Secretary

Chemical Engineering Dept.

IIT Bombay

(M) 9757281297

[Himani Singhal]

I am in group 1 and I don't know about the copies in group 2. Also I didn't check the solutions outside. I have seen other copies as well in group 1 and I personally believe checking was lenient. I have also seen the overall marks sheet of whole batch n most of us are getting fr if 40 is passing marks. Marks in endsem were already very low. If on average 10 marks are being deducted I guess its best we apologize to sir. Also going to dean and ta is useless as the can't decide anything in this case. Its completely sir's decision. Best we apologize. And the argument that ta started n all should not be given. They were not ready to hear anything as they were instructed so strictly! I am ready to go if needed among 4 -5 people to apologize to sir.

[Hersh Manek]

I'll go as well. 

[ajay kumar]

+1 to Rishi 

Ajay Kumar 

Chemical Engineering Undergraduate 

IIT Bombay, India 

[ajay kumar]

Please, inform in this thread who all are planning to meet sir ( OR TAs), otherwise different people will go to meet sir/TA at different timings which may aggravate the situation 

Ajay Kumar 

Chemical Engineering Undergraduate 

IIT Bombay, India 

[Akshay Saxena]

I'll be there

[Nimish Kulkarni]

Lady TA's version: Students were bargaining for 0.5 marks which were not even there. Their answers were terrible but still marks given were very lenient. Students were talking very arrogantly. I have cooperated too much in this course. I even made sure that each group got decent marks in assignment by rechecking their submissions. 

Its true that if we complaint about TA to sir, it will be our word against TA's word. So definitely we are not going to do that. 
Yesterday I sent a long apology mail to sir, and he seemed calm in his reply. 
Last night all the papers were rechecked. Average 4 marks got reduced after rechecking. Very few student's marks got increased. (Other TA told me that avg 10 marks got reduced. but lady TA is more reliable from my past experience)
Rough grading is already done in excel. FR number is not as high as last year.
I requested TA to share the excel sheet but she refused. 
Before making any move or meeting with sir please let me know, don't go by yourself. Although I doubt that he will come to his office today.

[Himani Singhal]

I guess we should not complain about anyone bt only apologize and request to be lenient in grading.

[Rishi Vaishnav]

Hmmm,

So what i suggest is that since nimish has already dropped a couple of mails to say sorry on our behalf, now its better to not do it any further (baar baar sorry bolne se log irritate ho jaate h)

@Nimish Please drop a mail to sir, saying that 

"Sir, This is what the department has to say, We realise our mistakes, we were not able to realize and appreciate the amount of efforts that have been put in. Also we do understand that we should have done it in a more organised (and more sophisticated) way. We are students and sometimes we do get carried away in minute issues and make a complete blunder, we have realised that already and we are really sorry for inconvenience caused. We are final year students and will be graduating soon, We thank you for your patience, Efforts and your contribution towards our learning. 

Sorry for the series of apology mails, None of us will disturb you again in this regard. 

Thank You

-Chemical Dept 4thies" 

  

Isko edit kr k bhej dena

and ab kisi ko milne ki koi zaroorat nhi h (last days days, party hard!)

[Rishi Vaishnav]

*(last days guys,party hard!)