Enter, then knock?
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Arye...@gmail.com
Oct 2, 2008, 11:24:40 PM10/2/08
to iChabura
I asked two very prominent talmidei chochamim this question and they
did not know the answer so I throw it out to you to help.
Why in Aveinu Malkeinu do we first say "kabeil b'rachomim uvratzon es
tefilaseinu" and THEN say "pesach shaarei shamayim lisfeilaseinu?"
Shouldn't the order be switched?
did not know the answer so I throw it out to you to help.
Why in Aveinu Malkeinu do we first say "kabeil b'rachomim uvratzon es
tefilaseinu" and THEN say "pesach shaarei shamayim lisfeilaseinu?"
Shouldn't the order be switched?
Chanan Liss
Oct 3, 2008, 10:20:57 AM10/3/08
to iChabura
I once heard (I don't remember from where) the question asked as to
why "p'sach shaarei shamayim" isn't the first avinu malkeinu. In
fact, some siddurim insert that phrase before the avinu malkeinus
anyway, but l'masseh it's not officially there. The answer I heard
was that first we want to send up several tefillos to the shaarei
shamayim and have them wait there, then we ask Hashem "p'sach shaarei
shamayim lisfilaseinu" with the hopes that out tefillos that are
waiting at the gate will burst through and make a big impact.
(L'mashal, the high school football team that comes running through
the big sign when they come out onto the field, makes quite an impact,
no?) So the first half of avinu malkeinu is domeh to us knocking on
the shaarei shamayim and then we say "p'sach shaarei shamayim
lisfilaseinu", asking Hashem to let them in. So perhaps when we say
"kabeil b'rachomim u'vratzon es tefilaseinu" it fits into the same
idea, that we're standing at the gate and asking HKB"H to please let
us in and accept our tefillos that we've been outside saying, and to
finish that off we say "p'sach shaarei shamayim lisfilaseinu". Please
Hashem, we've been outside begging, please let us in.
why "p'sach shaarei shamayim" isn't the first avinu malkeinu. In
fact, some siddurim insert that phrase before the avinu malkeinus
anyway, but l'masseh it's not officially there. The answer I heard
was that first we want to send up several tefillos to the shaarei
shamayim and have them wait there, then we ask Hashem "p'sach shaarei
shamayim lisfilaseinu" with the hopes that out tefillos that are
waiting at the gate will burst through and make a big impact.
(L'mashal, the high school football team that comes running through
the big sign when they come out onto the field, makes quite an impact,
no?) So the first half of avinu malkeinu is domeh to us knocking on
the shaarei shamayim and then we say "p'sach shaarei shamayim
lisfilaseinu", asking Hashem to let them in. So perhaps when we say
"kabeil b'rachomim u'vratzon es tefilaseinu" it fits into the same
idea, that we're standing at the gate and asking HKB"H to please let
us in and accept our tefillos that we've been outside saying, and to
finish that off we say "p'sach shaarei shamayim lisfilaseinu". Please
Hashem, we've been outside begging, please let us in.
Message has been deleted
Arye...@gmail.com
Oct 3, 2008, 4:41:31 PM10/3/08
to iChabura
If anyone has any other answers I would still love to hear it.
Meanwhile, another question I have never gotten an answer to (though,
I admittedly have not done too much research): What do dreams and
birchas kohanim have to do with each other?
Rav Schachter told me that Maharsha says that birchas kohanim has 60
letters and a dream is 1/60 of death. He then told me that he has
never counted the letters but he does not think that this is even 1/60
of the answer.
Any thoughts?
Meanwhile, another question I have never gotten an answer to (though,
I admittedly have not done too much research): What do dreams and
birchas kohanim have to do with each other?
Rav Schachter told me that Maharsha says that birchas kohanim has 60
letters and a dream is 1/60 of death. He then told me that he has
never counted the letters but he does not think that this is even 1/60
of the answer.
Any thoughts?
Arye...@gmail.com
Oct 4, 2008, 9:08:15 PM10/4/08
to iChabura
Oops! I mistaked. Sleep is 1/60 of death, a dream is 1/60 of nevuah!
(where is Book when you need him? The answer is Gruss.)
Anyway, for all of you ichabura old skoolers, Ben Pomper pointed out
to me that piskei Teshuvah quotes Noam Elimelech who says that since
dreams are 1/60 of a nevuah, birchas kohanim, which is full nevuah
(since the Shechinah rests upon them) can come and be mevateil the
dreams (1:60 ratio so it is batel b'shishim).
Book can tell yall about how 6/60/600 etc. represents complete and
wholeness.
On a simpler level, the kohanim are giving us the berochos of
shmeirah, for example, so we are davening that all our dreams turn out
ok and that we are protected.
In another hock, Rav Schachter said that he does not say the yehi
ratzon after the 3rd set of birchas kohanim because it was just
something that chassidim added into the machzor. Instead, he says the
Rebono shel Olam tefillah again. This actually seems like pashtus in
MB and there don't seem to be any other mekoros quoted in the
Chassidishely authored piskei teshuvos [other than saying BOTH Ribon
shel Olam AND yehi ratzon] (as Benjy also pointed out to me).
(where is Book when you need him? The answer is Gruss.)
Anyway, for all of you ichabura old skoolers, Ben Pomper pointed out
to me that piskei Teshuvah quotes Noam Elimelech who says that since
dreams are 1/60 of a nevuah, birchas kohanim, which is full nevuah
(since the Shechinah rests upon them) can come and be mevateil the
dreams (1:60 ratio so it is batel b'shishim).
Book can tell yall about how 6/60/600 etc. represents complete and
wholeness.
On a simpler level, the kohanim are giving us the berochos of
shmeirah, for example, so we are davening that all our dreams turn out
ok and that we are protected.
In another hock, Rav Schachter said that he does not say the yehi
ratzon after the 3rd set of birchas kohanim because it was just
something that chassidim added into the machzor. Instead, he says the
Rebono shel Olam tefillah again. This actually seems like pashtus in
MB and there don't seem to be any other mekoros quoted in the
Chassidishely authored piskei teshuvos [other than saying BOTH Ribon
shel Olam AND yehi ratzon] (as Benjy also pointed out to me).
Arye...@gmail.com
Oct 7, 2008, 10:54:33 PM10/7/08
to iChabura
I was zocheh to have Book call me from ארץ ישראל yesterday. So, of
course I couldn’t let the phone call pass without asking about some of
the recent iChabura inyanim. I asked him the question about Aveinu
Malkeinu and he suggested an answer in literally about .8 seconds.
Yeshayah (65:24)—The pasuk we say in aneinu on a fast day--says
וְהָיָה טֶרֶם-יִקְרָאוּ, וַאֲנִי אֶעֱנֶה; עוֹד הֵם מְדַבְּרִים,
וַאֲנִי אֶשְׁמָע
“And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer, and
while they are yet speaking, I will hear.”
This pasuk clearly discusses the possibility that ה' will answer us
before we even ask. Metzudas Zion says that the context of this pasuk
is, lo and behold, teshuva. So, perhaps the mekabeil line in Aveinu
Malkein is imploring ה' to answer us before we even have to ask and
then, if that fails, open up the shaarei Shamayim for our tefillos
that we do say.
course I couldn’t let the phone call pass without asking about some of
the recent iChabura inyanim. I asked him the question about Aveinu
Malkeinu and he suggested an answer in literally about .8 seconds.
Yeshayah (65:24)—The pasuk we say in aneinu on a fast day--says
וְהָיָה טֶרֶם-יִקְרָאוּ, וַאֲנִי אֶעֱנֶה; עוֹד הֵם מְדַבְּרִים,
וַאֲנִי אֶשְׁמָע
“And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer, and
while they are yet speaking, I will hear.”
This pasuk clearly discusses the possibility that ה' will answer us
before we even ask. Metzudas Zion says that the context of this pasuk
is, lo and behold, teshuva. So, perhaps the mekabeil line in Aveinu
Malkein is imploring ה' to answer us before we even have to ask and
then, if that fails, open up the shaarei Shamayim for our tefillos
that we do say.
Effy Unterman
Oct 10, 2008, 5:11:56 PM10/10/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
This is a nice answer to the original question: how can G-d answer us before we ask Him to?
But I have some further questions. First, don't we have 20 lines of asking for things before we even get to the one that was troubling us? Why do we ask for things before asking Him to listen to us? Isn't listening to us the whole premise of asking Him things?
For that matter, why put שמע קולנו at the end of the שמונה עשרה - wouldn't it be more appropriate as a precursor to all the other requests?
For that matter, שמע קולנו is broken up into a couple lines in אבינו מלכנו. So are many other ברכות from ש"ע. But they're out of order. Why is that?
Of course, our עמידה has an overall order that we're pretty familiar with, and שמע קולנו is a nice catch-all at the end of the "Requests" section. The problem is that אבינו מלכנו doesn't seem to follow any ostensibly discernible organization. I don't have time to analyze the whole thing right now, but I have a hunch that a key to understanding the פתח שערי שמים line is to first understand the big picture organization of the אבינו מלכנוs, and then it will be easier to understand individual lines.
Have a great Shabbos,
--Fe
But I have some further questions. First, don't we have 20 lines of asking for things before we even get to the one that was troubling us? Why do we ask for things before asking Him to listen to us? Isn't listening to us the whole premise of asking Him things?
For that matter, why put שמע קולנו at the end of the שמונה עשרה - wouldn't it be more appropriate as a precursor to all the other requests?
For that matter, שמע קולנו is broken up into a couple lines in אבינו מלכנו. So are many other ברכות from ש"ע. But they're out of order. Why is that?
Of course, our עמידה has an overall order that we're pretty familiar with, and שמע קולנו is a nice catch-all at the end of the "Requests" section. The problem is that אבינו מלכנו doesn't seem to follow any ostensibly discernible organization. I don't have time to analyze the whole thing right now, but I have a hunch that a key to understanding the פתח שערי שמים line is to first understand the big picture organization of the אבינו מלכנוs, and then it will be easier to understand individual lines.
Have a great Shabbos,
--Fe
2008/10/7 <Arye...@gmail.com>
Arye...@gmail.com
Oct 11, 2008, 11:55:36 PM10/11/08
to iChabura
Well F-E, a few things. First, I do not really understand what it
means for HaShem to answer us before we ask but it certainly was a
theme of a few of the final selichos at neillah, as well.
Second, my brother mentioned this to me and I confirmed it kinda in
the Rav Hirsch siddur that apparently some commmunities did not have
the pesach shaarei shamayim line, so I guess that would answer that.
Third, I agree the whole organization of Aveinu Malkeinu is confusing
but I am not sure understand its basic structure will help us
understand this particularly difficulty. Here is R' Hirsch's attempt
at understanding the overall structure (in brief; see 623-627 in his
siddur for a fuller, better elaboration):
• Chatanu lefanecha: because of our sins that we have not yet
overcome, we are still in galus. This leads into “Ain lanu melech
eleh atah,”that despite our continued sinning and remaining in galus,
You are still guiding our lives and destinies. Therefore, “Aseh imanu
leman shemecha,” we rely on no one but ה' and His loving-kindness and
we ask for a “shanah tova” which implies all of our hopes and desires
for the future. Now, we specify the specific wishes.
• The first specific wish is the removal of “gezeiros kashos” all
troubles that inhibit any of our growth for good. We then ask for
bateil, hafeir, kaleh, and sitom of specific evil perils delivered by
hostile peoples. Only after this do we add kaleh, mina, and shelach
physical and social troubles that are not necessarily directed at בני
ישראל.
• Now, why does our asking for “hachazireinu b’teshuva” come now and
not before the previous section since we know our lot here is
determined significantly by our spiritual states? We ask for all of
these before we ask for ה' to help us be chozeir b’teshuva because
history has shown that oppression actually BENEFITS the spiritual
state of בני ישראל because it “serves as a challenge to our people to
muster all its spiritual and moral grandeur…it has been mostly in
times of economic disaster and social catastrophe that we resolved to
sin no more.” The prayer for teshuva was put after the request for
the betterment of our material and spiritual situation to warn us to
rid ourselves, once and for all, of this moral weakness (of higher
spiritual state being dependent on poorer circumstances). Now, comes
the teshuva requests.
• Finally, see this post: "With teary eyes, we seek revenge"
http://groups.google.com/group/Chabura/browse_thread/thread/2e76d50c19668a96/0557cce7b785b0f1?lnk=gst&q=smash#0557cce7b785b0f1
because R’ Hirsch has a relevant quote on the line “nikom liaineinu
nikmas dam avdecha hashafuch” which seems to strengthen the question
posed there. “The one motive which, more than anything else, has
protected Israel from the base impulses of vengefulness, is
represented by the recital of these portions of our prayer book which
teaches us that we must commit to none other than Gd all vengeance and
retribution for the hurt we may sustain at the hands of others…It is
due only to our trust of the truth in these promises (that ה' will
punish ever hurt we suffered at hands of foes) that we have found the
strength to submit to murder without ever becoming murderers
ourselves, [and] to bear strangling without becoming hangmen ourselves…
These appeals to Gd have helped us remain human and kind in the midst
of the inhumanity round us.”
On Oct 10, 5:11 pm, "Effy Unterman" <feiro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a nice answer to the original question: how can G-d answer us before
> we ask Him to?
>
> But I have some further questions. First, don't we have 20 lines of asking
> for things before we even get to the one that was troubling us? Why do we
> ask for things before asking Him to listen to us? Isn't listening to us the
> whole premise of asking Him things?
>
> For that matter, why put שמע קולנו at the end of the שמונה עשרה - wouldn't
> it be more appropriate as a precursor to all the other requests?
>
> For that matter, שמע קולנו is broken up into a couple lines in אבינו מלכנו.
> So are many other ברכות from ש"ע. But they're out of order. Why is that?
>
> Of course, our עמידה has an overall order that we're pretty familiar with,
> and שמע קולנו is a nice catch-all at the end of the "Requests" section. The
> problem is that אבינו מלכנו doesn't seem to follow any ostensibly
> discernible organization. I don't have time to analyze the whole thing
> right now, but I have a hunch that a key to understanding the פתח שערי שמים
> line is to first understand the big picture organization of the אבינו
> מלכנוs, and then it will be easier to understand individual lines.
>
> Have a great Shabbos,
>
> --Fe
>
> 2008/10/7 <AryehS...@gmail.com>
means for HaShem to answer us before we ask but it certainly was a
theme of a few of the final selichos at neillah, as well.
Second, my brother mentioned this to me and I confirmed it kinda in
the Rav Hirsch siddur that apparently some commmunities did not have
the pesach shaarei shamayim line, so I guess that would answer that.
Third, I agree the whole organization of Aveinu Malkeinu is confusing
but I am not sure understand its basic structure will help us
understand this particularly difficulty. Here is R' Hirsch's attempt
at understanding the overall structure (in brief; see 623-627 in his
siddur for a fuller, better elaboration):
• Chatanu lefanecha: because of our sins that we have not yet
overcome, we are still in galus. This leads into “Ain lanu melech
eleh atah,”that despite our continued sinning and remaining in galus,
You are still guiding our lives and destinies. Therefore, “Aseh imanu
leman shemecha,” we rely on no one but ה' and His loving-kindness and
we ask for a “shanah tova” which implies all of our hopes and desires
for the future. Now, we specify the specific wishes.
• The first specific wish is the removal of “gezeiros kashos” all
troubles that inhibit any of our growth for good. We then ask for
bateil, hafeir, kaleh, and sitom of specific evil perils delivered by
hostile peoples. Only after this do we add kaleh, mina, and shelach
physical and social troubles that are not necessarily directed at בני
ישראל.
• Now, why does our asking for “hachazireinu b’teshuva” come now and
not before the previous section since we know our lot here is
determined significantly by our spiritual states? We ask for all of
these before we ask for ה' to help us be chozeir b’teshuva because
history has shown that oppression actually BENEFITS the spiritual
state of בני ישראל because it “serves as a challenge to our people to
muster all its spiritual and moral grandeur…it has been mostly in
times of economic disaster and social catastrophe that we resolved to
sin no more.” The prayer for teshuva was put after the request for
the betterment of our material and spiritual situation to warn us to
rid ourselves, once and for all, of this moral weakness (of higher
spiritual state being dependent on poorer circumstances). Now, comes
the teshuva requests.
• Finally, see this post: "With teary eyes, we seek revenge"
http://groups.google.com/group/Chabura/browse_thread/thread/2e76d50c19668a96/0557cce7b785b0f1?lnk=gst&q=smash#0557cce7b785b0f1
because R’ Hirsch has a relevant quote on the line “nikom liaineinu
nikmas dam avdecha hashafuch” which seems to strengthen the question
posed there. “The one motive which, more than anything else, has
protected Israel from the base impulses of vengefulness, is
represented by the recital of these portions of our prayer book which
teaches us that we must commit to none other than Gd all vengeance and
retribution for the hurt we may sustain at the hands of others…It is
due only to our trust of the truth in these promises (that ה' will
punish ever hurt we suffered at hands of foes) that we have found the
strength to submit to murder without ever becoming murderers
ourselves, [and] to bear strangling without becoming hangmen ourselves…
These appeals to Gd have helped us remain human and kind in the midst
of the inhumanity round us.”
On Oct 10, 5:11 pm, "Effy Unterman" <feiro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a nice answer to the original question: how can G-d answer us before
> we ask Him to?
>
> But I have some further questions. First, don't we have 20 lines of asking
> for things before we even get to the one that was troubling us? Why do we
> ask for things before asking Him to listen to us? Isn't listening to us the
> whole premise of asking Him things?
>
> For that matter, why put שמע קולנו at the end of the שמונה עשרה - wouldn't
> it be more appropriate as a precursor to all the other requests?
>
> For that matter, שמע קולנו is broken up into a couple lines in אבינו מלכנו.
> So are many other ברכות from ש"ע. But they're out of order. Why is that?
>
> Of course, our עמידה has an overall order that we're pretty familiar with,
> and שמע קולנו is a nice catch-all at the end of the "Requests" section. The
> problem is that אבינו מלכנו doesn't seem to follow any ostensibly
> discernible organization. I don't have time to analyze the whole thing
> right now, but I have a hunch that a key to understanding the פתח שערי שמים
> line is to first understand the big picture organization of the אבינו
> מלכנוs, and then it will be easier to understand individual lines.
>
> Have a great Shabbos,
>
> --Fe
>
Aryeh Sova
Sep 13, 2018, 1:31:47 PM9/13/18
to iChabura
Happy 10 year anniversary to this post!
I believe in selicha 49 that we recited on Tzom Gedalya, there is support to this idea:
אמנת מאז ארשת ניב שפתים
בתפלה ובתחנון דפוק שערי דלתים
Artscroll translation:
You taught [us] from old how [our] lips should speak out,
with pray and supplication to knock on [Your] gates.
mordy
Sep 13, 2018, 5:32:53 PM9/13/18
to iChabura
A kernel of a homiletic approach:
I believe the only reference to שערי שמים in Tanach is
וַיִּיקַץ יַעֲקֹב מִשְּׁנָתוֹ וַיֹּאמֶר אָכֵן יֵשׁ יְקֹוָק בַּמָּקוֹם הַזֶּה וְאָנֹכִי לֹא יָדָעְתִּי
וַיִּירָא וַיֹּאמַר מַה נּוֹרָא הַמָּקוֹם הַזֶּה אֵין זֶה כִּי אִם בֵּית אֱלֹהִים וְזֶה שַׁעַר הַשָּׁמָיִם
Yaakov Avinu did not realize at first that he was in a place/position to offer prayers that could breach the heavenly gates
Maybe we have gone through the motions of tefilla and only come to the realization that we are in a place/position to have our prayers heard late in the game
The composer of the Avinu Malkeinu is hinting to us to look to Yaakov Avinu's prayer and know that it is not too late
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