Mistakes that people make
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Arye...@gmail.com
May 30, 2008, 12:18:33 PM5/30/08
to iChabura
Everyone feel free to add to this short list of common, basic
(possible) errors that are widely practiced and accepted.
1. Asking at a meal, "Anyone wanna make their own kiddush?"/ Each
couple making a separate kiddush at an aufruf (for example)
Aruch HaShulchan (273:6) stresses that it is better for one person to
make a kiddush for everyone because of rov am hadras melech. He goes
on to say that you should prevent people from making separate
kiddushes and teach them that it is a bigger mitzvah to have kavanah
and listen to one person's kiddush (hence, this post).
2. Using Kos from bentching of the 3rd Shabbos meal for Havdala
Shulchan Aruch (499:4) poskens that if 3rd meal goes into the night,
you should finish the meal, bentch al hakos, and USE A SECOND KOS TO
MAKE HAVDALA (if you have a second kos). (MB and others discuss if
you are makpid on kos shel bracha [read #3] then you should even drink
from the kos after bentching and before havdala.) Shmeiras Shabbos
(59:16) explains the proper procedure: bentch al hakos, daven maariv,
fill another kos, make havdala and drink from the new kos, then the
mavdil or someone else should drink at least maleh lugmav from the
bentching kos (if someone else is drinking it, he is yotzei with the
mavdil's hagafen). SS does mention that the minhag is to use the same
kos for bentching and havdalah and suggests in footnote that maybe it
is because of ain ovrein al hamitzvos (How does one weigh ain ovrein
vs, mitzvos chavilos chalios?).
3. Not bentching al hakos
Pesachim (105b) says that we need to be mevarchin (birchas hamazon) al
hakos. Tur (supported by Rashbam, Rabbeinu Yechiel and others) says
that birchas hamazon requires a kos, even when bentching alone. He
goes so far to say that if it is possible to get a kos and you do not
have one now then you shouldn't even eat a seudah now like we say
about eating before havdala. Kal Bo says that since even a yachid
requires a kos, if 2 people eat together EACH ONE will require a kos
(brought down in SA).
Tosafos (Pescahim 105b) bring different opinions and say that the
minhag ha-olam is only to bentch al hakos when you have a zimun.
Rambam (Berachos 7:16) says that bentching does NOT require a kos.
What happened to the gemara in Pesachim? Rabbeinu Manoach says that
Rambam may hold that it is not miakeiv but is still a mitzvah min
hamuvchar. Alternatively, he suggests that Rambam was only referring
to a yachid but would admit that a zimun would require a kos.
SA (181:1) basically quotes the Tur. Then, yeish omreim: only need if
you have 3, then yeish omreim: don't need even if you have 3. Rema
qualifies this and says, even according to this last opinion, it is
still a mitzvah min hamuchar to do it. Mishnah Berura (4) qualifies
this Rema by saying it is only a mitzvah min hamuvchar if you have
wine in your house. He points out that it is minhag ha-olam to be
meikil and not make sure to have a kos shel bracha and it is
especially meikil with a yachid. However, if there is wine (or chamar
medina) in the house it is certainly a mitzvah min hamuvchar to use
kos she bracha. (Bear in mind, these halachos are NOT in hilchos
Shabbos. In theory, this should always be true).
Piskei Teshuvos says that Chazon Ish and Rav Yaakov were not makpid on
having a kos shel bracha, even on Shabbos, and even with 3 people.
He asks why we are seemingly not so careful about this, especially
during the week, even when we eat with 3 or even 10 people?
Seemingly, we hold like the yeish omreim that it is not a chiyuv (just
a mitzvah min hamuvchar) and in previous generations wine was very
expensive and scarcely available so the minhag became to be meikil
with it. (Rav Pilagi holds that this is only true if there is no wine
on the table at the time of bentching; if there is, then it is a
chiyuv gamur to bentch al hakos, so if you cannot afford it then you
should be makpid to remove it from the table first.) He says that he
is only trying to be melamed zechus on the minhag because Aruch
HaShulchan says, now all yarei Shamayaim should do it now that there
is so much cheap wine (and grape juice) available.
(possible) errors that are widely practiced and accepted.
1. Asking at a meal, "Anyone wanna make their own kiddush?"/ Each
couple making a separate kiddush at an aufruf (for example)
Aruch HaShulchan (273:6) stresses that it is better for one person to
make a kiddush for everyone because of rov am hadras melech. He goes
on to say that you should prevent people from making separate
kiddushes and teach them that it is a bigger mitzvah to have kavanah
and listen to one person's kiddush (hence, this post).
2. Using Kos from bentching of the 3rd Shabbos meal for Havdala
Shulchan Aruch (499:4) poskens that if 3rd meal goes into the night,
you should finish the meal, bentch al hakos, and USE A SECOND KOS TO
MAKE HAVDALA (if you have a second kos). (MB and others discuss if
you are makpid on kos shel bracha [read #3] then you should even drink
from the kos after bentching and before havdala.) Shmeiras Shabbos
(59:16) explains the proper procedure: bentch al hakos, daven maariv,
fill another kos, make havdala and drink from the new kos, then the
mavdil or someone else should drink at least maleh lugmav from the
bentching kos (if someone else is drinking it, he is yotzei with the
mavdil's hagafen). SS does mention that the minhag is to use the same
kos for bentching and havdalah and suggests in footnote that maybe it
is because of ain ovrein al hamitzvos (How does one weigh ain ovrein
vs, mitzvos chavilos chalios?).
3. Not bentching al hakos
Pesachim (105b) says that we need to be mevarchin (birchas hamazon) al
hakos. Tur (supported by Rashbam, Rabbeinu Yechiel and others) says
that birchas hamazon requires a kos, even when bentching alone. He
goes so far to say that if it is possible to get a kos and you do not
have one now then you shouldn't even eat a seudah now like we say
about eating before havdala. Kal Bo says that since even a yachid
requires a kos, if 2 people eat together EACH ONE will require a kos
(brought down in SA).
Tosafos (Pescahim 105b) bring different opinions and say that the
minhag ha-olam is only to bentch al hakos when you have a zimun.
Rambam (Berachos 7:16) says that bentching does NOT require a kos.
What happened to the gemara in Pesachim? Rabbeinu Manoach says that
Rambam may hold that it is not miakeiv but is still a mitzvah min
hamuvchar. Alternatively, he suggests that Rambam was only referring
to a yachid but would admit that a zimun would require a kos.
SA (181:1) basically quotes the Tur. Then, yeish omreim: only need if
you have 3, then yeish omreim: don't need even if you have 3. Rema
qualifies this and says, even according to this last opinion, it is
still a mitzvah min hamuchar to do it. Mishnah Berura (4) qualifies
this Rema by saying it is only a mitzvah min hamuvchar if you have
wine in your house. He points out that it is minhag ha-olam to be
meikil and not make sure to have a kos shel bracha and it is
especially meikil with a yachid. However, if there is wine (or chamar
medina) in the house it is certainly a mitzvah min hamuvchar to use
kos she bracha. (Bear in mind, these halachos are NOT in hilchos
Shabbos. In theory, this should always be true).
Piskei Teshuvos says that Chazon Ish and Rav Yaakov were not makpid on
having a kos shel bracha, even on Shabbos, and even with 3 people.
He asks why we are seemingly not so careful about this, especially
during the week, even when we eat with 3 or even 10 people?
Seemingly, we hold like the yeish omreim that it is not a chiyuv (just
a mitzvah min hamuvchar) and in previous generations wine was very
expensive and scarcely available so the minhag became to be meikil
with it. (Rav Pilagi holds that this is only true if there is no wine
on the table at the time of bentching; if there is, then it is a
chiyuv gamur to bentch al hakos, so if you cannot afford it then you
should be makpid to remove it from the table first.) He says that he
is only trying to be melamed zechus on the minhag because Aruch
HaShulchan says, now all yarei Shamayaim should do it now that there
is so much cheap wine (and grape juice) available.
Jacob Lewin
Jun 1, 2008, 6:20:27 PM6/1/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
I have more to add, but one thing that really fries my bacon:
people refer to someone who decides to be the שליח ציבור or גבאי when there is no one else in shul as doing something "במקום שאין איש". The mishnah is clearly: "במקום שאין אנשים השתדל להיות איש."
more to come...
people refer to someone who decides to be the שליח ציבור or גבאי when there is no one else in shul as doing something "במקום שאין איש". The mishnah is clearly: "במקום שאין אנשים השתדל להיות איש."
more to come...
Dani Schreiber
Jun 1, 2008, 10:30:42 PM6/1/08
to iChabura
Kind petty small things, but just for the sake of public knowledge:
In general, when we do something, we are supposed to try to do it with
our right side first. We use our right hand , our right foot first,
turn to our right. Much of this is based on a mishna in Zevachim about
the kohanim turning to their right when they go around the mizbe'ach.
Examples in real life:
1. When starting and finishing Shemoneh esrei, step back with your
left foot first (two steps then together), and then forward with your
right foot first.
2. Hagba should be done by doing a 360 to your right.
3. Put on your right shoe first, but tie the left one first (based on
a Zohar, I know, but you all heard that story with the helicopter
pilot, and the explosion, and the thing...right?)
4. Shita Mekubetzet says that the time when a child should start
putting on tsitsit is when he knows to put them on with his right hand
and take them off with his left (same thing should be done by tefillin
- i assume the shel rosh).
Exception - when finishing shemoneh esrei, bow to your left first -
why? - Hatam Sofer (in Toras Moshe) explains because we're bowing to
Hashem's right side first and then to His left side.
On Jun 1, 6:20 pm, "Jacob Lewin" <lewin.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have more to add, but one thing that really fries my bacon:
>
> people refer to someone who decides to be the שליח ציבור or גבאי when there
> is no one else in shul as doing something "במקום שאין איש". The mishnah is
> clearly: "במקום שאין *אנשים* השתדל להיות איש."
> > is so much cheap wine (and grape juice) available.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
In general, when we do something, we are supposed to try to do it with
our right side first. We use our right hand , our right foot first,
turn to our right. Much of this is based on a mishna in Zevachim about
the kohanim turning to their right when they go around the mizbe'ach.
Examples in real life:
1. When starting and finishing Shemoneh esrei, step back with your
left foot first (two steps then together), and then forward with your
right foot first.
2. Hagba should be done by doing a 360 to your right.
3. Put on your right shoe first, but tie the left one first (based on
a Zohar, I know, but you all heard that story with the helicopter
pilot, and the explosion, and the thing...right?)
4. Shita Mekubetzet says that the time when a child should start
putting on tsitsit is when he knows to put them on with his right hand
and take them off with his left (same thing should be done by tefillin
- i assume the shel rosh).
Exception - when finishing shemoneh esrei, bow to your left first -
why? - Hatam Sofer (in Toras Moshe) explains because we're bowing to
Hashem's right side first and then to His left side.
On Jun 1, 6:20 pm, "Jacob Lewin" <lewin.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have more to add, but one thing that really fries my bacon:
>
> people refer to someone who decides to be the שליח ציבור or גבאי when there
> is no one else in shul as doing something "במקום שאין איש". The mishnah is
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jacob Lewin
Jun 1, 2008, 11:27:34 PM6/1/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Another example...
People always stand whenever the ארון קודש is open. Even though this is a nice practice, the only דין כבוד which is required to give to a ספר תורה by standing is when a ספר תורה is being carried, transported--when it is stationary there is no need to stand. This is found in Shulchan Orech YD 282:2; the נושאי כלים point out that this דין is an example of the דין קימה which is needed for a תלמיד חכם, etc.
Moreover, on Aryeh's idea that the כוס used for bentching at שלש סעודות shouldnt be used for הבדלה, I wanted to give a possible support and justification of the practice. To spare all the details, R'Schachter in ארץ הצבי ד:א -ב discusses an idea from גר"ח: the ברכת הגפן which is done for הבדלה is fundamentally different than the ברכת הגפן for קידוש. For קידוש, the הגפן is considered part and parcel of the מצוה of קידוש, unlike for הבדלה where the הגפן is really only considered a ברכת הנהנין and not really a part of the מצוה of הבדלה. This, R'Schachter says, fits very well with the comment of the מג"א או"ח רצו:י that if one doesn't hear the ברכת הגפן from the person making הבדלה, one can still be יוצא.
Coupled with this idea, R'Schachter says in ארץ הצבי ד:ח that the main issue with עושין מצות חבילות חבילות is that one is doing two מצוות on one חפצא. In this scenario, one is not really doing two מצוות with one חפצא because the wine is not really part of the מצוה of הבדלה and is really on a ברכת השבח. Thus, in the scenario where one uses the כוס for both שלש סעודות and הבדלה the כוס של יין is not being used for two מצות.
People always stand whenever the ארון קודש is open. Even though this is a nice practice, the only דין כבוד which is required to give to a ספר תורה by standing is when a ספר תורה is being carried, transported--when it is stationary there is no need to stand. This is found in Shulchan Orech YD 282:2; the נושאי כלים point out that this דין is an example of the דין קימה which is needed for a תלמיד חכם, etc.
Moreover, on Aryeh's idea that the כוס used for bentching at שלש סעודות shouldnt be used for הבדלה, I wanted to give a possible support and justification of the practice. To spare all the details, R'Schachter in ארץ הצבי ד:א -ב discusses an idea from גר"ח: the ברכת הגפן which is done for הבדלה is fundamentally different than the ברכת הגפן for קידוש. For קידוש, the הגפן is considered part and parcel of the מצוה of קידוש, unlike for הבדלה where the הגפן is really only considered a ברכת הנהנין and not really a part of the מצוה of הבדלה. This, R'Schachter says, fits very well with the comment of the מג"א או"ח רצו:י that if one doesn't hear the ברכת הגפן from the person making הבדלה, one can still be יוצא.
Coupled with this idea, R'Schachter says in ארץ הצבי ד:ח that the main issue with עושין מצות חבילות חבילות is that one is doing two מצוות on one חפצא. In this scenario, one is not really doing two מצוות with one חפצא because the wine is not really part of the מצוה of הבדלה and is really on a ברכת השבח. Thus, in the scenario where one uses the כוס for both שלש סעודות and הבדלה the כוס של יין is not being used for two מצות.
Michael Weinblatt
Jun 1, 2008, 11:17:15 PM6/1/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Hey Guys -- new to the chabura (thanks Jake).
1) This one bothers me every time:
In Kabbalas Shabbos, the second paragraph, the chazzan always says "Yismachu Hashamayim, v'sagel ha'aretz... ki va lishpot ha'aretz, yishpot TEYvel b'tzedek (with the emphasis on the "tey" instead of the correct emphasis on the end of the word "vel").
What's the difference? Actually, quite a big one. The Torah, in several places when discussing the arayos (and sleeping with an animal) uses the word TEYvel to discribe it "TEYvel hu, mos yumas" -- TEYvel is an abomination/perversion.
TeyVEL, with the emphasis on the end of the word, means world. "Yishpot teyVEL b'tzedek -- Hashem judges the world with justice -- not those that pervert the world.
Same thing goes for the 4th paragraph.
--- On Sun, 6/1/08, Dani Schreiber <big...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jacob Lewin
Jun 2, 2008, 8:44:18 AM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
I am not sure if so many people make this mistake, but I have noticed people who are not careful about it:
When a person gets an aliyah, Shulchan Orech OC 141:7 says that a person should take the quickest route to "ascend" to get an aliyah and a person should take the longer route back to his seat. Mishnah Brurah says that there are two reasons for this: Kavod Ha Tzibur and Kavod Ha Torah. I often notice that people do not "descend" taking the longer route and just go back the same way they came up.
Just to note, Shulchan Orech (ibid) says that if the route to ascend and descend are equal, then one should ascend on the right side and descend on the left--see Dani's post about "rights before lefts in halacha" for more examples.
When a person gets an aliyah, Shulchan Orech OC 141:7 says that a person should take the quickest route to "ascend" to get an aliyah and a person should take the longer route back to his seat. Mishnah Brurah says that there are two reasons for this: Kavod Ha Tzibur and Kavod Ha Torah. I often notice that people do not "descend" taking the longer route and just go back the same way they came up.
Just to note, Shulchan Orech (ibid) says that if the route to ascend and descend are equal, then one should ascend on the right side and descend on the left--see Dani's post about "rights before lefts in halacha" for more examples.
AFri...@gmail.com
Jun 2, 2008, 2:08:32 AM6/2/08
to iChabura
Loved your post! I have especially been bothered why no one does Al
Hakos during the week and do on Shabbos? Similiarly many people make
the same mistake with Mayim Achronim and only do so on Shabbos!?
In terms of Kiddush Brov Am, I discussed it with a prominent Rav who
told me that he only will listen and not make his own when the one
making it will pronounce it slowly and be audible to him. This would
probably be then a reason to make your own at a big shul kiddush
versus let's say a home meal.
Lastly to add to the list of common mistakes, after extensive research
I am pretty certain that the minhag of saying Goel Yisrael quietly
that many people do is a mistake as most poskim in fact conclude.
On Jun 2, 6:17 am, Michael Weinblatt <letsgomet...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey Guys -- new to the chabura (thanks Jake).
>
> 1) This one bothers me every time:
>
> In Kabbalas Shabbos, the second paragraph, the chazzan always says "Yismachu Hashamayim, v'sagel ha'aretz... ki va lishpot ha'aretz, yishpot TEYvel b'tzedek (with the emphasis on the "tey" instead of the correct emphasis on the end of the word "vel").
>
> What's the difference? Actually, quite a big one. The Torah, in several places when discussing the arayos (and sleeping with an animal) uses the word TEYvel to discribe it "TEYvel hu, mos yumas" -- TEYvel is an abomination/perversion.
>
> TeyVEL, with the emphasis on the end of the word, means world. "Yishpot teyVEL b'tzedek -- Hashem judges the world with justice -- not those that pervert the world.
>
> Same thing goes for the 4th paragraph.
>
> --- On Sun, 6/1/08, Dani Schreiber <biga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Hakos during the week and do on Shabbos? Similiarly many people make
the same mistake with Mayim Achronim and only do so on Shabbos!?
In terms of Kiddush Brov Am, I discussed it with a prominent Rav who
told me that he only will listen and not make his own when the one
making it will pronounce it slowly and be audible to him. This would
probably be then a reason to make your own at a big shul kiddush
versus let's say a home meal.
Lastly to add to the list of common mistakes, after extensive research
I am pretty certain that the minhag of saying Goel Yisrael quietly
that many people do is a mistake as most poskim in fact conclude.
On Jun 2, 6:17 am, Michael Weinblatt <letsgomet...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey Guys -- new to the chabura (thanks Jake).
>
> 1) This one bothers me every time:
>
> In Kabbalas Shabbos, the second paragraph, the chazzan always says "Yismachu Hashamayim, v'sagel ha'aretz... ki va lishpot ha'aretz, yishpot TEYvel b'tzedek (with the emphasis on the "tey" instead of the correct emphasis on the end of the word "vel").
>
> What's the difference? Actually, quite a big one. The Torah, in several places when discussing the arayos (and sleeping with an animal) uses the word TEYvel to discribe it "TEYvel hu, mos yumas" -- TEYvel is an abomination/perversion.
>
> TeyVEL, with the emphasis on the end of the word, means world. "Yishpot teyVEL b'tzedek -- Hashem judges the world with justice -- not those that pervert the world.
>
> Same thing goes for the 4th paragraph.
>
mordy
Jun 2, 2008, 11:10:38 AM6/2/08
to iChabura
(L'kavod Yom Yerushalayim)
people love repeating words in halel...mah lecha hayom (ma lecha ha
yom) ki sanus (ki sanus) v'chulu... apparanetly unaware that one must
refrain from doing so.
aaron leibtag
Jun 2, 2008, 2:34:07 PM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
you are correct- this is not the accepted custom. ALthough we are trained to do this from our childhood days in fact the Shulchan Aruch does not mention it. It is one of the times that two halachos interfere with each other. On the one hand a person can't be מפסיק and should be סומך גאולה לתפילה- however one also must be weary about a brachah l'vatlah. We find a similar occurence in Maariv when one msut be careful to not pause in between teh brachah of oheiv amo yisrael and shema yet the chazzon says a brachha which requries an amen.
There are two possilbities. First, one could just say גאל ישראל wth the chazzan or second one could jsut start shemonei esrie earlier
aaron leibtag
Jun 2, 2008, 2:37:30 PM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Here is another good grammatical mistake.
MOst people are not careful about a shvah na and shva nach- mainly when a shva should start a new syllable or end an arelady existing syllable. MOst of the times there is not such a different in the meaning of the word= although that is the proper way to lein- but there are times where the lack or one could cause a real problem in the meaning of the words. in parshas vayetzei yaakov has a dream and the pasuk says ויקץ יעקב משנתו and there is a shvah in teh shin of משנתו. msot people jsut lein it "mish-naso" which means that yaakov got up from his learning. While he might have been learning we know that he was as well sleeping and the only way the word means that is it is read "mee-shinaso". with a new break in teh shin.
On 6/2/08, AFri...@gmail.com <AFri...@gmail.com> wrote:
Tzvi Hagler
Jun 2, 2008, 2:44:14 PM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
the other famous shav nah and shav nach iss ue i the torah is by yosaef's wife. her name is aSInas(t) not asnas(t). it doesnt hae different meanings, but it just isnt her name--
Tzvi Hagler
516-316-2718
tzvi....@gmail.com
Tzvi Hagler
516-316-2718
tzvi....@gmail.com
aaron leibtag
Jun 2, 2008, 3:05:38 PM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
once we are discussing tefillah oriented chazan mistakes- here is a good one.
When being the shliach tzibbur one says birchas kohanim. However, it should be ready Elokeinu...hameshuleshes. STOP. Then say "batorah haksuvah". Otherwise, if you read it like many do "hamesulehes bakasum batorah" you are saying that there is a meshuleshes that is written in the torah.
aaron leibtag
Jun 2, 2008, 3:07:15 PM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
However, when it comes to the parsha of sotah the mapik hey (the dot in the letter hey) makes a big difference . The torah is talking about the man's wife and if it ready with a mapik hey the word אשה becomes his wife. however, if the word is read and the proper annunciation of hte mapik hey is lacking the word is simply just "a woman". big difference.
Dani Schreiber
Jun 2, 2008, 3:21:25 PM6/2/08
to iChabura
Another hazzan/kehilla one. My father likes to point out that on
Shabbos many times the shaliach tzibbur will sing out the final "ve-
imrruuuuuuuuuu aaaaaaaaaaaamen," causing the kehal to say "amen" along
with him. This is not the end of the world, but as you know, we
usually say the amen after the chazan says it (because he's telling us
to say it) and it's no different for that one.
In fact, the Magen Avraham writes about this kaddish (it's a hard one
to find - I had to search high and low [or first right, then left] for
it) that IF the hazzan sings it out then the kehal should say it along
with him to avoid a hefsek, but lehat'hila he should just say it and
let the kehal respond.
I think the best thing is what my dad does, which is to combine the
"ve-imru amen" into the tune of what most people use for "ve-
imeruuuuu" so that the kehal responds amen like they normally do. It's
almost impossible to describe it better than that (classic Rupture and
Reconstruction example).
On Jun 2, 3:07 pm, "aaron leibtag" <aleib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, when it comes to the parsha of sotah the mapik hey (the dot in the
> letter hey) makes a big difference . The torah is talking about the man's
> wife and if it ready with a mapik hey the word אשה becomes his wife.
> however, if the word is read and the proper annunciation of hte mapik hey is
> lacking the word is simply just "a woman". big difference.
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Shabbos many times the shaliach tzibbur will sing out the final "ve-
imrruuuuuuuuuu aaaaaaaaaaaamen," causing the kehal to say "amen" along
with him. This is not the end of the world, but as you know, we
usually say the amen after the chazan says it (because he's telling us
to say it) and it's no different for that one.
In fact, the Magen Avraham writes about this kaddish (it's a hard one
to find - I had to search high and low [or first right, then left] for
it) that IF the hazzan sings it out then the kehal should say it along
with him to avoid a hefsek, but lehat'hila he should just say it and
let the kehal respond.
I think the best thing is what my dad does, which is to combine the
"ve-imru amen" into the tune of what most people use for "ve-
imeruuuuu" so that the kehal responds amen like they normally do. It's
almost impossible to describe it better than that (classic Rupture and
Reconstruction example).
On Jun 2, 3:07 pm, "aaron leibtag" <aleib...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, when it comes to the parsha of sotah the mapik hey (the dot in the
> letter hey) makes a big difference . The torah is talking about the man's
> wife and if it ready with a mapik hey the word אשה becomes his wife.
> however, if the word is read and the proper annunciation of hte mapik hey is
> lacking the word is simply just "a woman". big difference.
>
> On 6/2/08, Tzvi Hagler <tzvi.hag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > the other famous shav nah and shav nach iss ue i the torah is by yosaef's
> > wife. her name is aSInas(t) not asnas(t). it doesnt hae different
> > meanings, but it just isnt her name
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > the other famous shav nah and shav nach iss ue i the torah is by yosaef's
> > wife. her name is aSInas(t) not asnas(t). it doesnt hae different
> > meanings, but it just isnt her name
>
> > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:37 PM, aaron leibtag <aleib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Here is another good grammatical mistake.
> >> MOst people are not careful about a shvah na and shva nach- mainly when a
> >> shva should start a new syllable or end an arelady existing syllable. MOst
> >> of the times there is not such a different in the meaning of the word=
> >> although that is the proper way to lein- but there are times where the lack
> >> or one could cause a real problem in the meaning of the words. in parshas
> >> vayetzei yaakov has a dream and the pasuk says ויקץ יעקב משנתו and there is
> >> a shvah in teh shin of משנתו. msot people jsut lein it "mish-naso" which
> >> means that yaakov got up from his learning. While he might have been
> >> learning we know that he was as well sleeping and the only way the word
> >> means that is it is read "mee-shinaso". with a new break in teh shin.
>
>
> >> Here is another good grammatical mistake.
> >> MOst people are not careful about a shvah na and shva nach- mainly when a
> >> shva should start a new syllable or end an arelady existing syllable. MOst
> >> of the times there is not such a different in the meaning of the word=
> >> although that is the proper way to lein- but there are times where the lack
> >> or one could cause a real problem in the meaning of the words. in parshas
> >> vayetzei yaakov has a dream and the pasuk says ויקץ יעקב משנתו and there is
> >> a shvah in teh shin of משנתו. msot people jsut lein it "mish-naso" which
> >> means that yaakov got up from his learning. While he might have been
> >> learning we know that he was as well sleeping and the only way the word
> >> means that is it is read "mee-shinaso". with a new break in teh shin.
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Chanan Liss
Jun 2, 2008, 4:43:24 PM6/2/08
to iChabura
Learned this one from Cantor Beer when I had to take a Belz music
class to get one credit to graduate: On shabbos when we say
"uv'makalos rivavos" most people (really all) end off "al kol divrei
shiros v'sishbachos, dovid ben yishai avdecha mishichecha." However,
it should be read "al kol divrei shiros v'sishbachos dovid ben yishai,
avdecha mishichecha" because the "divrei shiros v'sishbachos" belong
to Dovid.
class to get one credit to graduate: On shabbos when we say
"uv'makalos rivavos" most people (really all) end off "al kol divrei
shiros v'sishbachos, dovid ben yishai avdecha mishichecha." However,
it should be read "al kol divrei shiros v'sishbachos dovid ben yishai,
avdecha mishichecha" because the "divrei shiros v'sishbachos" belong
to Dovid.
Jacob Lewin
Jun 2, 2008, 11:15:43 PM6/2/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Ok, this is a real mistake and not some dikduk or havara mistake:
People often dont realize that there are only certain times when food can be "returned/put on" the blech on shabbos.
Avoiding all issues of hot-plates and platas, people often put food items on the blech itself on shabbos without realizing that it is sometimes assur. One is allowed, based on the Rama (OC 253:5) to put food that was on the blech from before shabbos back onto the blech on shabbos day provided that other hachzara conditions--grufa/ketuma, fully cooked, cold but not wet. There are some shitos (see Magen Avraham cited in MB) which do not allow for hachzara for a cold-food, even though it is dry. Nevertheless, based on the Rama, one can take food that was on the blech on friday night, put in the fridge and put it back on the blech on shabbos day.
But, if a food wasnt on the blech on friday night (when shabbos started) putting on the blech is no longer hachzara it is hanacha lechatchila.
Often times, people will put food which was not on the blech on friday night and put it on the blech (even though it is fully cooked and dry) on shabbos day. R'Moshe says that one can do hanacha lechatchila onto the part of the blech which is not yad soledes bo, but Chazon Ish says that one cannot.
Either way, people often do not make this distinction and will put food on the blech (in inappropriate parts) on shabbos day which can be a big problem.
People often dont realize that there are only certain times when food can be "returned/put on" the blech on shabbos.
Avoiding all issues of hot-plates and platas, people often put food items on the blech itself on shabbos without realizing that it is sometimes assur. One is allowed, based on the Rama (OC 253:5) to put food that was on the blech from before shabbos back onto the blech on shabbos day provided that other hachzara conditions--grufa/ketuma, fully cooked, cold but not wet. There are some shitos (see Magen Avraham cited in MB) which do not allow for hachzara for a cold-food, even though it is dry. Nevertheless, based on the Rama, one can take food that was on the blech on friday night, put in the fridge and put it back on the blech on shabbos day.
But, if a food wasnt on the blech on friday night (when shabbos started) putting on the blech is no longer hachzara it is hanacha lechatchila.
Often times, people will put food which was not on the blech on friday night and put it on the blech (even though it is fully cooked and dry) on shabbos day. R'Moshe says that one can do hanacha lechatchila onto the part of the blech which is not yad soledes bo, but Chazon Ish says that one cannot.
Either way, people often do not make this distinction and will put food on the blech (in inappropriate parts) on shabbos day which can be a big problem.
AFri...@gmail.com
Jun 3, 2008, 5:07:04 AM6/3/08
to iChabura
I agree many people just don't know when they can use their blechs! I
believe an eitza to prevent this blech problem is to create a
situation similiar to a "Kdeira al gabei Kadeira".
So for example one can take a metal or tinfoil pan and turn it upside
down on the blech and then only on top of that place the food.
Am I correct about this?
believe an eitza to prevent this blech problem is to create a
situation similiar to a "Kdeira al gabei Kadeira".
So for example one can take a metal or tinfoil pan and turn it upside
down on the blech and then only on top of that place the food.
Am I correct about this?
Shamshi Szlafrok
Jun 3, 2008, 9:00:31 AM6/3/08
to iChabura
One of the things that always gets to me is the fact that people
always ignore this mefurash passuk in parshas Kedoshim of "lo selech
rachil b'amecha".I never really understood that one......(See hakdama
to sefer Chafetz Chaim where he talks abt it in much more serious and
grave terms.....).
On a more serious note, while er're on the topic of grammar mistakes
in laining, it is important to differentiate between past and present
when a word is spelled the same way in both tenses. An example of this
is when the Torah speaks of the death of Rachel. In parshas Vayishlach
(?) when speaking of her death in the present tense, the proper
prononciation is mei-SA, while in parshas Vayechi the proper
pronounciation is MEI-sa.
always ignore this mefurash passuk in parshas Kedoshim of "lo selech
rachil b'amecha".I never really understood that one......(See hakdama
to sefer Chafetz Chaim where he talks abt it in much more serious and
grave terms.....).
On a more serious note, while er're on the topic of grammar mistakes
in laining, it is important to differentiate between past and present
when a word is spelled the same way in both tenses. An example of this
is when the Torah speaks of the death of Rachel. In parshas Vayishlach
(?) when speaking of her death in the present tense, the proper
prononciation is mei-SA, while in parshas Vayechi the proper
pronounciation is MEI-sa.
Jacob Lewin
Jun 3, 2008, 12:29:11 PM6/3/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
yea...there are different opinions what to do. R'Shlomo Zalman says that one can do the upside-down pan but R'Willig says that one can only utilize the heter of Kadera al gabey kadera when the lower kadera is filled (kedera melaias).
Another way to allow for hanacha lechatchila is to use a hot plate. R'Willig is mechadesh that a hot plate is not, in any way, cooking the food becuase it is only designed to warm. Thus, there is no mechzi ke mevashel issues and as long as the dial on the hot-plate is covered there is sufficient grufa/ketuma and the shema yechata be gechalim issue is gone.
Some poskim, however, are cholek and say that the heat on the hot plate is enough to be "mevashel" so there would only be a heter of the hot plate is covered with something (like a pan, etc.)
Dani Schreiber
Jun 3, 2008, 1:58:27 PM6/3/08
to iChabura
Jake, my brother once told me that R Willig was giving a shiur in
Gruss when he said the thing about a hot plate not cooking and the
crowd basically said "yes, we do" and he said "really?" and they said
"yes." and he said "okay, then I guess it's cooking."
But I may be remembering it wrong, or that may have been only for
Israel. Someone should confirm before acting on it, though.
Gruss when he said the thing about a hot plate not cooking and the
crowd basically said "yes, we do" and he said "really?" and they said
"yes." and he said "okay, then I guess it's cooking."
But I may be remembering it wrong, or that may have been only for
Israel. Someone should confirm before acting on it, though.
Jacob Lewin
Jun 3, 2008, 2:48:48 PM6/3/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
That could be, but R'Willig discusses this in his sefer Am Mordechai on Shabbos (i do not have it in front of me and i forgot the exact siman, but the title is "ענין בלעך". He says this chiddush. Also, R'Willig said this in 4th Year Halacha Le Maaseh Chabura this year (shiur #6)--I think this is how he paskens lehalacha.
Tzvi Hagler
Jun 3, 2008, 4:20:30 PM6/3/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
I was in rav Willig's shiur and we did have a discussion regarding how hot the hot plate gets and whether people can cook on it. I believe Rav Willig holds that one ca use a hot plate. If I remember correctly, we said in shiur that even if the plate gets hot enough, people dont cook with it, therefore we may use it. Dot know for sure if that how the shiur ended off saying, but do remeber Rav Willif allowing use of a hot plate
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Dani Schreiber <big...@gmail.com> wrote:
AFri...@gmail.com
Jun 4, 2008, 6:00:25 AM6/4/08
to iChabura
I believe if I remember correctly the chiluk with the hotplate is as
follows (this may verify the diff versions heard from Rav Willig too):
It all depends on whether the hotplate is actually used to cook as Rav
Lewin mentioned. Therefore in Eretz Yisrael it seems to be more common
to actually cook with a hotplate (perhaps has to do with society,
people have less money etc...), in that case it would seem more
problematic. In fact I Rav Neuwirt in his actual haskama to Rav
Willig's sefer says everything is great, except the fact that you
allow hotplates! I was told that Rav Dovid Miller said that in the
Army they actually used them to cook. So it really seems to depend on
where you are in the world. In America where no one does, but just
uses these plates to heat up foods then there should in fact be no
problem.
-While we are still on the discussion of mistakes people make. What
does everyone think about when people actually bentch Al Hakos? Any
time three? Only when ten? Only on Shabbos? Some just never do it?
(I believe there is even a shita that holds that when even one alone
bentches he should bentch Al Hakos, eventhough we don't really hold
like this, I believe it displays it's significance)
follows (this may verify the diff versions heard from Rav Willig too):
It all depends on whether the hotplate is actually used to cook as Rav
Lewin mentioned. Therefore in Eretz Yisrael it seems to be more common
to actually cook with a hotplate (perhaps has to do with society,
people have less money etc...), in that case it would seem more
problematic. In fact I Rav Neuwirt in his actual haskama to Rav
Willig's sefer says everything is great, except the fact that you
allow hotplates! I was told that Rav Dovid Miller said that in the
Army they actually used them to cook. So it really seems to depend on
where you are in the world. In America where no one does, but just
uses these plates to heat up foods then there should in fact be no
problem.
-While we are still on the discussion of mistakes people make. What
does everyone think about when people actually bentch Al Hakos? Any
time three? Only when ten? Only on Shabbos? Some just never do it?
(I believe there is even a shita that holds that when even one alone
bentches he should bentch Al Hakos, eventhough we don't really hold
like this, I believe it displays it's significance)
Yosef Chaim Kassorla
Jun 17, 2008, 6:44:27 PM6/17/08
to iChabura
About Jake's "BeMakom She'ain Anashim"--- I think it would serve
everyone better to say Bar Kappara's much less known line (Berachos
63a) "Ba'atar d'leis g'var taman lah tehavei g'var" It sounds much
cooler
everyone better to say Bar Kappara's much less known line (Berachos
63a) "Ba'atar d'leis g'var taman lah tehavei g'var" It sounds much
cooler
Jacob Lewin
Jun 17, 2008, 10:45:14 PM6/17/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Another mistake that I often see:
On shabbos, large meals, etc. where one person is mevarech for everyone else, I sometimes see that the mevarech (and even people at the table) tend to hand the bread to someone's hands as opposed to placing it on the table and having them pick it up.
The source for this mistake is in Shulchan Orech (OC 167:18) where he says that when a person makes the bracha of hamotzi for a group, he (or she--depending on where you are) cannot hand the bread directly to the person unless that person is an avel.
Interestingly, Mishnah Brurah (167:89) says that a person shouldnt hand bread directly to an avel ON SHABBOS because this would be practicing avelus be farhesiah.
On shabbos, large meals, etc. where one person is mevarech for everyone else, I sometimes see that the mevarech (and even people at the table) tend to hand the bread to someone's hands as opposed to placing it on the table and having them pick it up.
The source for this mistake is in Shulchan Orech (OC 167:18) where he says that when a person makes the bracha of hamotzi for a group, he (or she--depending on where you are) cannot hand the bread directly to the person unless that person is an avel.
Interestingly, Mishnah Brurah (167:89) says that a person shouldnt hand bread directly to an avel ON SHABBOS because this would be practicing avelus be farhesiah.
YonatanF
Jun 17, 2008, 10:54:46 PM6/17/08
to iChabura
I'm not sure about this, but I seem to recall that the bread merely
has to hit the table at some point. Thus, if the one (I'm using vague
terminology because, as Jacob pointed out, it depends where you are)
cutting the challah would first put it on the table, you could then
pass it hand to hand thereafter. But again, I'm really not sure about
this, I just have a vague recollection that this is true...anyone else
have a more concrete idea?
On Jun 17, 10:45 pm, "Jacob Lewin" <lewin.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Another mistake that I often see:
>
> On shabbos, large meals, etc. where one person is mevarech for everyone
> else, I sometimes see that the mevarech (and even people at the table) tend
> to hand the bread to someone's hands as opposed to placing it on the table
> and having them pick it up.
>
> The source for this mistake is in Shulchan Orech (OC 167:18) where he says
> that when a person makes the bracha of hamotzi for a group, he (or
> she--depending on where you are) cannot hand the bread directly to the
> person unless that person is an avel.
>
> Interestingly, Mishnah Brurah (167:89) says that a person shouldnt hand
> bread directly to an avel ON SHABBOS because this would be practicing avelus
> be farhesiah.
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Yosef Chaim Kassorla <ykasso...@gmail.com>
has to hit the table at some point. Thus, if the one (I'm using vague
terminology because, as Jacob pointed out, it depends where you are)
cutting the challah would first put it on the table, you could then
pass it hand to hand thereafter. But again, I'm really not sure about
this, I just have a vague recollection that this is true...anyone else
have a more concrete idea?
On Jun 17, 10:45 pm, "Jacob Lewin" <lewin.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Another mistake that I often see:
>
> On shabbos, large meals, etc. where one person is mevarech for everyone
> else, I sometimes see that the mevarech (and even people at the table) tend
> to hand the bread to someone's hands as opposed to placing it on the table
> and having them pick it up.
>
> The source for this mistake is in Shulchan Orech (OC 167:18) where he says
> that when a person makes the bracha of hamotzi for a group, he (or
> she--depending on where you are) cannot hand the bread directly to the
> person unless that person is an avel.
>
> Interestingly, Mishnah Brurah (167:89) says that a person shouldnt hand
> bread directly to an avel ON SHABBOS because this would be practicing avelus
> be farhesiah.
>
Jacob Lewin
Jun 18, 2008, 12:17:43 AM6/18/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Another mistake, and Sova didnt think this happens so much, does happen and I actually saw it happen this past shabbos:
During Friday Night davening the chazan starts with the bracha of bracha achas meain shalosh and then the tzibur says magen avos. The chazan, writes Mishnah Brurah (268:22) should not say magen avos with the tzibur and then continue with the "Elokeinu..." rather the chazan should pause and wait for the tzibur and then say magen avos "בקול רם."
This past shabbos the chazzan where I was (dont worry, he's not on Ichabura) did not do this and just started with "Elokeinu..." right after the entire tzibur said magen avos. This wasnt the first time I have seen this, and I think it is a "mistake that people make."
During Friday Night davening the chazan starts with the bracha of bracha achas meain shalosh and then the tzibur says magen avos. The chazan, writes Mishnah Brurah (268:22) should not say magen avos with the tzibur and then continue with the "Elokeinu..." rather the chazan should pause and wait for the tzibur and then say magen avos "בקול רם."
This past shabbos the chazzan where I was (dont worry, he's not on Ichabura) did not do this and just started with "Elokeinu..." right after the entire tzibur said magen avos. This wasnt the first time I have seen this, and I think it is a "mistake that people make."
Ezra Goldschmiedt
Jun 18, 2008, 9:15:24 AM6/18/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Ok I got one - on Friday night, there's what to be said about saying
"v'shamru" before Sh'moneh Esrei, and whether or not it's mafsik
s'michas g'ula l't'filla. Whatever you may hold (minhag seems to be to
say it), NO ONE says you should say it twice - so when the chazzan
waits for everyone to say it and and then follows up with his own
Carlebach rendition or whatever, the tzibbur should not be singing it
along with him a second time. If the chazzan wants everyone to sing
along, he should break out the tune immediately after he finishes
hashkiveinu.
"v'shamru" before Sh'moneh Esrei, and whether or not it's mafsik
s'michas g'ula l't'filla. Whatever you may hold (minhag seems to be to
say it), NO ONE says you should say it twice - so when the chazzan
waits for everyone to say it and and then follows up with his own
Carlebach rendition or whatever, the tzibbur should not be singing it
along with him a second time. If the chazzan wants everyone to sing
along, he should break out the tune immediately after he finishes
hashkiveinu.
Jacob Lewin
Aug 5, 2008, 10:27:40 AM8/5/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Hey...
In an earlier post of this string I wrote:
People always stand whenever the ארון קודש is open. Even though this is a nice practice, the only דין כבוד which is required to give to a ספר תורה by standing is when a ספר תורה is being carried, transported--when it is stationary there is no need to stand. This is found in Shulchan Orech YD 282:2; the נושאי כלים point out that this דין is an example of the דין קימה which is needed for a תלמיד חכם, etc.
Although this seems like a mistake that people make, I was just shown the Sha'ar Ha Tzion (OC 146:18) which quotes ac comment of the Pri Megadim. Prim Megadim says that although there is no need to stand when the Aron is open there are people who nevertheless are noheg to do so for the hiddur of the sefer torah.
I am happy I was pointed in the direction of that SHaar Ha Tzion and I think we can scratch this off of the "mistakes that people make" list...
Jacob Lewin
Oct 4, 2008, 8:07:34 PM10/4/08
to Cha...@googlegroups.com
Hey,
On the issue of standing up when an ארון קודש is open, originally I thought it was a mistake and then I was pointed to the following (quoted in a previous post):
On the issue of standing up when an ארון קודש is open, originally I thought it was a mistake and then I was pointed to the following (quoted in a previous post):
Although this seems like a mistake that people make, I
was just shown the Sha'ar Ha Tzion (OC 146:18) which quotes ac comment
of the Pri Megadim. Prim Megadim says that although there is no need to
stand when the Aron is open there are people who nevertheless are noheg
to do so for the hiddur of the sefer torah.
This caused me to scratch that off of the "mistakes that people make" list.
Interestingly, the פסקי תשובות in הל' יום כיפור discusses the halachos regarding the opening of the ארון during נעילה. He happens to quote an even more extreme approach than that of the שער הציון הנ"ל. In the פתחי תשובה חו"מ פז:כב he quotes the חתם סופר who indicates that it is אסור to sit when the ארון קודש is open.
So, it looks like it's a mistake NOT to stand when a ארון קודש is open. But, this חתם סופר seems to be a little extreme and is probably not the generally accepted פסק.
Interestingly, the פסקי תשובות in הל' יום כיפור discusses the halachos regarding the opening of the ארון during נעילה. He happens to quote an even more extreme approach than that of the שער הציון הנ"ל. In the פתחי תשובה חו"מ פז:כב he quotes the חתם סופר who indicates that it is אסור to sit when the ארון קודש is open.
So, it looks like it's a mistake NOT to stand when a ארון קודש is open. But, this חתם סופר seems to be a little extreme and is probably not the generally accepted פסק.
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