Core Team Leader?

[Tim Badolato]

Do we have one? Is there an opening that should be announced?

[Tim Badolato]

Is there anyone left in leadership who can answer these questions? 

Who owns cfwheels.org and has control over the github repository? What is the plan for handing them off or delegating control for maintenance? 

I think for the sake of those of us who have invested into the platform we should have a discussion instead of just letting the project rot, lose interest and eventually disappear into complete obscurity.

Maybe instead of handing things off to another individual we could hand it off to an organization like TCFA or similar?

Just trying to figure out what the future of cfwheels looks like and I hope this conversation could help clarify and help everyone get on the same page.

[Yannick Morin]

I have the same concern as you Tim and I understand that the core team have more important responsibilities to handle but like Tim maybe they should think of trying to find an org that would take control and continue and the development.

Sadly I decided to move on to a new language and stop developing new apps in wheels because I can't develop an app if support could become obsolete.

Again I don't want anyone core or not feel like I'm not grateful for all the work and support provided but we have to think for the best of the framework because otherwise every other wheels coder will eventually migrate to some other language and we would lose all support from this amazing and friendly community.

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[Tim Badolato]

Well said Yannick, I totally agree!

Also I hope I am not coming across as ungrateful, I am truly grateful for all of the work and sacrifice that went in to this project. My gratefulness is driving me to start this discussion to keep this framework from dying. I think doing whatever it takes to keep this going would truly honor those that have worked so hard. 

[Adam Chapman]

This is a great post. I also hope there is some sort of resolution soon as it's a fantastic framework.

Adam

[Chris Peters]

Yes, it appears that the ship isn't really being steered by anyone at this time. I've kind of kept silent because I didn't want to overstep my bounds or come across as ungrateful. I can assure everyone that I am VERY grateful for all of the hours that have been invested into this framework and for the community that has formed around it.

That aside, I see a few major things that need to be managed. Some of this may require the same person to handle multiple items, but I think having separate "owners" for each item may be the best strategy long-term.

1. Leadership. This doesn't really mean that all of the code needs to be written by this person, but someone needs to have the vision of where to take the project, know how to say "no" often, and put in countless hours getting things straightened out. Not a light task and a major reason why we've seen the guard changed twice over the past few years. (Not that that's a bad thing.) I feel that a major duty here is to figure out how to simplify things because we don't have large enough of an open source community to handle this much complexity. Any takers?

2. Take over the website. I handed a Google Doc with passwords/etc. to Tony, but I still have access to all of that stuff that I could pass on to someone else. I'd be glad to help someone get started but don't have the time to maintain the website anymore. Any takers?

3. Sort out the documentation. Tony ported documentation to Markdown in the GitHub repo. Now we don't really have a way to take that and generate something that can go on the website (or whatever). I don't agree with how this has been done, but I'm sure someone who would be willing to "own" this could sort it out and come up with something good. Any takers?

4. Get version 1.2 sorted out. This also kind of includes documentation. I'm not sure that anyone has a handle on what version 1.2 does exactly. I think that alternate caching engines (e.g., memcached support) were added, but they may not be finished. I think some other enhancements were added, but I can't remember what they are. This would be a job all of its own. Any takers?

I have admin rights to the GitHub repo. There are a few private repos that Tony has graciously been paying for. (I did that for a number of years before handing it over.) We may want to consider moving the private stuff to Bitbucket since they allow free private repos. Or maybe some of the stuff can be changed so it doesn't have to be private anymore.

The website is hosted by Vivio Technologies for free. It's CF9 on CentOS, but I'd love to see it switched over to Railo.

A grab-bag of my own random thoughts with some or no value:

• One potential approach may be to trash version 1.2 and come up with a new strategy. I feel like that branch has gotten so out of hand that this project may never be able to recover from it. Maybe cherry-pick some stuff from the 1.2 branch that makes sense to keep. Perhaps branch new-master into a 1.3 or 2.0 branch?
  
  
• Move the project in a direction that truly embraces Railo. I'm of the opinion that closed-source Adobe ColdFusion really just hurts everything in this CFML ecosystem.
  
  
• I really wish that automated testing my own CFWheels apps was easier to grasp. This is an area that could really be cleaned up. This is now an expectation in modern programming environments with TDD, BDD, etc.
  
  
• Some major thought needs to go into improving the plugin system. (Maybe figure out how to plug into this one? http://www.ortussolutions.com/blog/project-commandbox-gideon-the-cfml-cli-package-manager-and-repl) It's too cumbersome to update plugins and update the plugin section of cfwheels.org. I had great intentions of making this better but never got to it... Also, it's disheartening when plugins step on each other and throw an exception. There's gotta be a way for two plugins to be able to override the same core method. Plugins are a great way to "test" new features that could end up in core. Heck, Rails has moved much of its functionality into plugins that are included as a default install (but can be opted out of if not needed/desired).
  
  
• Leaders need to be more honest about when they need to quit and when they need to enlist help. (I am especially guilty for this one.) I'd argue that core team members who have not committed anything in a year should be retired to the hall of fame automatically. There is absolutely no shame in quitting.
  
  
• The website should probably be stripped down to the essentials (Download, Docs, Plugins, About, Blog). Some of the features I added were nice when we were "full steam ahead," but perhaps a separate community site could be built to take on some of these features. In retrospect, I am glad I said no to lots of things like cookbooks, job boards, etc. because the site would be that much worse off. Lastly, the website should be maintained by someone who understands design and UX so it doesn't end up looking like the other frameworks' sites.
  

On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Tim Badolato <t...@eiqinteractive.com> wrote:

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[Chris Peters]

Regarding your thought on handing over to an organization vs. an individual, I believe that is a BOTH/AND proposition and not an EITHER/OR.

If we just handed the project over to an organization in its current state, it certainly would rot. You need an individual or group of individuals that maintain the project. So we need to hand it over to an individual.

An organization like Open CFML Foundation would not solve that problem, though they could eventually help solve the problem of not letting this happen again once it's sorted out. So we need to eventually hand it over to an organization.

BOTH/AND. :)

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[Tom King]

Thanks for the insightful thoughts Chris;

I pretty much agree with everything there, except the knocking out of ACF, as I fear we'd potentially lose some of the larger organisations who can't/won't move off to railo. Don't get me wrong, Railo rules. But my biggest client (for instance) runs ACF10 (so I'm probably being selfish).

Re: documentation - it should be possible to take the .md files and generate everything you need via Jekyll; could be a bit fiddly, but I think it's possibly do-able. That way you can just do a jekyll build to output static HTML for use in the main site. The real headache would be tying in that process with the autogeneration of the function index (which looks somewhat involved!).  

I think the main issue is that a lot of the enthusiastic extended community don't actually have that much experience with touching the core, so it all seems a bit "OMG IS A MAGIC BLACK BOX".

At least, that's how I see it :) I could possibly be interested in dealing a refresh of cfwheels.org (or at least, start some discussions about it), but it's not something you want to do alone: deciding what should be in there and what functionality it has needs more than one persons opinion.

[Chris Peters]

I guess my idea of Railo is to make it more of a first-class citizen, not necessarily to kill of ACF support. I think that there is a ton more potential in Railo that could be unlocked.

If you want to talk about helping with the website, I'd be glad to set aside some time during business hours if you can swing that.

[Chris Peters]

(And also to only cater current version of CFWheels to the most recent 2 versions of ACF instead of all the ugliness that comes with supporting all the way back to CF 8.)

[Tim Badolato]

I'd like to step up and join Tom in helping out with the website. Lets schedule something, maybe do a hangout or skype session?

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[Singgih Cahyono]

Chris, Tom,

That was a very tempting offers to take up leadership position on a relatively healthy open source project and dear to us.

CFWheels project seems to be healthy financially and technically (the 1.2 branch is not that bad and 1.1.8 is good).

The 1.2 branch passed all tests on all environments and ready to be released any time as validated by Travis-CI.

However, I struggle to understand what is actually wrong with 1.2 in specific and cfwheels in general.

From your post, it seems to boils down to "lack of vision" where everybody can rally upon. 

However, our mission is clear "ColdFusion on Wheels provides fast application development, a great organization system for your code, and is just plain fun to use."

So, may be we can derive the vision from there and rally the volunteers to bring the project to the next level.

For example, the tableless model feature from 1.2.

I am not sure if Rails has similar feature, if it does then this could be a vision to make the great organization systems even greater in 1.2.

We might need a separate post topic to nail down the vision for 1.2 and beyond.

I might be able to take up sorting up the 1.2 release and other releases for the next two years.

I am using ACF. So, I think that can ensure Tom that next releases will still be compatible with ACF.

Regards,

Singgih

[Chris Peters]

I actually thought sorting out 1.2 would be the hardest sell, but here you are, Singgih. :)

If someone wants to help with documentation, I think that's the biggest thing that we're missing. Singgih, the biggest thing you could help with is describing to someone how this stuff works so they can write about it. Or even doing what Per did in a lot of cases: write the first draft, and let someone else clean it up and expand upon it.

[Tim Badolato]

In regards to 1.2 documentation, some of the work is done if you search the group for 1.2, I remember explaining tableless models and giving an example. There may be others as well.

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[Chris G]

I'm going to jump into this thread just because it's an awesome discussion. Thanks to Tim for getting us started and to Chris P for driving it into a productive direction!

I'm extremely interested in getting involved. I'd feel most comfortable getting involved in the website, coming from a UX background, but as we already have two (or three?) volunteers for that, I don't want to overcrowd that area. I don't have much experience turning mark down into documentation, or generating documentation period, but I think it's an interesting problem to solve and something I'd be willing to get involved in with some support and guidance. Is there anyone out there with the experience, knowledge, and willingness to work together to solve this problem?

[Tim Badolato]

I think we should follow Singgih's lead and start threads for each of the projects to keep this one from getting sidetracked.

Right now Singgih created one for the vision, Tom or I can start one for the Website, etc.

[Adam Chapman]

Tony mentioned that coldroute was being intergrated into 1.2. I believe this would be an important addition. I've been running 1.2 on a production project for giggles.. and it seems to be running quite well.. I don't think it should be scrapped. There's a lot of good stuff in there, it may need a clean up and maybe some re-organisiation.

I once asked Tony about the 'scary core code' and he assured be that you can pretty much start with the dispatch/request.cfm then follow your nose from there..

I am fairly familiar with the test framework, so may be able to help out in that area.

This sounds promising!

Adam

[Chris Peters]

Who is going to "own" figuring out what was added and help document that? That is the primary issue.

I guess we can release and document later, but the feedback that I've received is that this framework would be useless if it wasn't for the documentation.

[Tim]

I think the consensus seems to be stick with 1.1.8 while we port features from 1.2 to 1.1.9 or to plugins. Pull requests should require documentation and examples before being merged.

[Chris Peters]

I'd recommend following semantic versioning:
http://semver.org/

So 1.1.9 would add fixes. People could build plugins to add features to 1.1.9, but the new features would not be added into core.

Version 1.2 would include new features directly. Maybe it includes them as plugins by default, but the bundled download would contain the full source for the new features.

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Tim <t...@eiqinteractive.com> wrote:

I think the consensus seems to be stick with 1.1.8 while we port features from 1.2 to 1.1.9 or to plugins. Pull requests should require documentation and examples before being merged.

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[Cathy Shapiro]

Just to put my two cents in - I think we should defer to whatever the original core team members (Chris, Per, Andy, etc.) decide. The framework is great right now, and that's because of their hard work.

To use a southern colloquialism, "Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup."

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[tpet...@gmail.com]

Just so everyone knows where i'm at in life.

I have stopped working on wheels, coldfusion and open source completely.

These last 2 years has been nothing but heartache for me. During just the last six months I've have to deal with an attempted suicide and an almost divorce with my wife (though are trying to reconcile and are going to counseling). My wife and my marriage to her are the most important things in the world to me, so i'm focusing all my energy to save them. 

I'm glad to see that the community is coming together to continue the project. I'm sorry that I can't continue and have been out of touch for so long.

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, Cathy Shapiro wrote:

Just to put my two cents in - I think we should defer to whatever the original core team members (Chris, Per, Andy, etc.) decide. The framework is great right now, and that's because of their hard work.

To use a southern colloquialism, "Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup."

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Chris Peters <chris....@liquifusion.com> wrote:

I'd recommend following semantic versioning:
http://semver.org/

So 1.1.9 would add fixes. People could build plugins to add features to 1.1.9, but the new features would not be added into core.

Version 1.2 would include new features directly. Maybe it includes them as plugins by default, but the bundled download would contain the full source for the new features.

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Tim <t...@eiqinteractive.com> wrote:

I think the consensus seems to be stick with 1.1.8 while we port features from 1.2 to 1.1.9 or to plugins. Pull requests should require documentation and examples before being merged.

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[Chris Peters]

Tony,

You had alluded that some personal stuff had been going on, and I was wondering what it was. Thank you for sharing. Thank you more so for what you've done over the past few years with this project. You've done heroic work!

You're always welcome to join back in when you are on more solid ground. You're right though: your family is way more important than this project, so I wish you all the best. Your family will be in my prayers for the foreseeable future.

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[Tim Badolato]

Really sorry to hear that. Don't be sorry you have given a lot to this community, I actually feel sorry that I didn't know what you were going through. Feel free to email me if you need to talk. I'll be praying for you bro.

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[Singgih Cahyono]

Glad to hear that you recover and keep coming back.

What is important for you, in a way, is important for us too.

Because your are important not only for us, but many of our customers and visitors of wheels app around the globe.

Take care, and we hope the best outcome is coming for you.

You are always welcome here.

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[Chris Geirman]

Tony, you've been an awesome force and an inspiration overall. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I express our sincere gratitude for your contribution and in wishing you all our best in dealing with life's many and varied challenges. 

You forgot to mention your fine work in hard drive scrubbing ;)

http://watchdog.org/158411/hard-drive-destroyed/
 

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[Adam Chapman]

Hi Tony,

I'm glad you have your priorities in order. Thank you for your immeasurable contribution to the community and for your guidance of me personally.

I sincerely hope you and your wife find happiness with each other and perhaps one day you can inspire us further.

Best wishes,
Adam

[Tom King]

Others have said it more eloquently than I: family first, open source second.

T

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[Cathy Shapiro]

Hi Tony,

I am behind on my email, so just reading this. I'm so sorry to hear about the problems you've been facing. I will be praying for you and your wife.

If you ever need anything, please don't hesitate to call on your cfwheels family for support. I am available on google talk and skype.

Skype: cathyshapiro

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[Andy Bellenie]

Hi guys,

Sorry for taking a while to contribute. I've also been off work for the past 3 months for family and health reasons and only part time before that. 

I hope to return within a month or two and all my clients are wheels based so will be happy to contribute again when I do but now is not the right time. 

Tony, I am so sorry to hear that things have been so difficult. I've always really enjoyed working with you and wish you and your wife the very best. When I'm back in shape myself I'll drop you a line. 

It's great to see many people keen to continue the Wheels project. Team changes can be a good thing in OSS to keep things moving and fresh. Good luck to everyone who gets involved.

Andy

Sent from my iPhone

[Troy Murray]

I think it's great that OSS can be this dynamic, great work  you guys for jumping in and helping out. 

It's been over a year now since I was working with ColdFusion and CFWheels, I've moved onto a new architect role and write very little code (I miss it). I had been maintaing the DBMigrate plugin for a few years because I was working with it on a regular basis, but it's not received any attention lately. If someone would like to take it over that's actively using it or working with CFWheels then please let me know. I believe Chris Peters also has commit access to the repo. Tony had contacted me about a year and a half ago about the possibility of moving it into the CFWheels core, but I was never able to contribute to that. 

Tony - I hope things work out really well for you and your wife.

Andy - I hope your health and family things get straightened out.

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[Chris Peters]

First off, thanks to Tim for pushing the issue on this. We've needed to get all of this going again, and your nudges caused some real action.

Here's the plan for the core team:

• Per and I will rejoin the core team. We will be coming up with a game plan that we will share with you very soon.
  
• Per and I will map out the near-term vision for the project and probably a longer-term vision. Examples: Do we need version 1.1.9? What should we do about 1.2? Opportunities for simplifying the CFWheels API. New features.
  
• Per will work to get some new core contributors going so they can contribute productively. I think already that Singgh would be a great addition to the core team if he accepts. The main goal here is to not put all of the pressure on Per.
  
• I will work to get some contributors going for the website and documentation.
• I will work to create some governing rules that will help us to avoid this situation in the future. This would probably also involve joining a group like the Open CFML Foundation.

I'm excited to rejoin in more of a guiding leadership role and less of a "doing" role. Personally, I would like to create a situation where none of this stuff is going to move forward unless others join in to help a little. This is a community effort.

It's so tempting to try to be a hero and do all the work yourself. Hey, we all love doing this kind of work. But I'd love even more to give some of you the opportunity to contribute in meaningful ways.

[Chris Peters]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that Per is rejoining the core team as the lead. Third time's a charm!

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[Adam Chapman]

Like!

[Chris Geirman]

This is exciting! With you, per, and possibly Singgh at the helm creating a grand plan, I'm super optimistic. And I do not want to sit on the sidelines as an admirer and consumer of your efforts, so I'll be looking for ways to make meaningful contributions as well... likely in small doses at first. 

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[Per Djurner]

The very, very short term plan in terms of the actual framework code is this:

- Start using the "master" branch with the code from the 1.1.8 release as the starting point.

- Have it pass all tests using Singgih's Travis setup.

- Go through all issues and pull requests and close them if they are related to unreleased 1.2 code or decide on an action if they are related to the 1.1.8 release.

- Fix some bugs and/or add some new features (picking the most important ones from the unreleased 1.2 stuff).

- Release "something"! (either as 1.1.9 or 1.2 depending on whether we only fix bugs or add new features as well).

I'll obviously need lots of help with this so keep an eye on the issue tracker on GitHub.

Also, please lobby for what you think are the "most important" bug fixes and features that we currently have in unreleased code.

[Singgih Cahyono]

Yeah, sound like a good plan.

[Tim Badolato]

Everyone, if you haven't "Starred" and "Watched" the wheels repository on github. I highly recommend doing so now. There is alot going on and it's exciting to watch, you might even see Per asking about a bug you submitted. I just did :)

https://github.com/cfwheels/cfwheels

[Thorsten Eilers]

Hi Tony,
I hope you and your wife are alright. I wish you strengthh to overcome the hard times.
If you think I can be of help for you, drop me a line. My wife is psychologist and if you like, I can ask her to mail/speak to you.
All the best
Thorsten