RE: [cfjobs] Re: CF developer req'd for Brisbane (skills shortage )
TRACEY, Darren
tricky, complicated, and is the domain of Adobe to pursue, not the
community.
If there are CF shops out there who are happy with CF but are finding it
hard to employ new CF people, then a little effort to take work experience
people in and show them CF. You can also look at the new apprenticeship
schemes. One of the CF people here at Suncorp started out with work
experience for a small CF shop, then got an apprenticeship with them, and is
now a very competent cf developer. This is the kind of thing that we, as a
community, can encourage, that will have a positive outcome.
Quibbling over which IDE is easier to install and pay for is something that
Adobe should be taking up with education institutes.
Regards
Darren Tracey
Systems Analyst
HR Systems and Fastrack
Wealth and Corporate Systems
Suncorp
p: + 61 7 3232 4019 (x64019)
f: + 61 7 3232 4133
e: darren...@suncorp.com.au
l: Lvl 12, 388 Queen St Brisbane QLD 4000
m: Suncorp IPC IT064, GPO Box 1453, Brisbane QLD 4000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dale Fraser [mailto:da...@fraser.id.au]
> Sent: Friday, 3 February 2006 4:12 PM
> To: cfj...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfjobs] Re: CF developer req'd for Brisbane (skills shortage)
>
>
> I strongly disagree.
>
> I think smart uni's will teach OO languages that provide interactive
> breakpoint debugging.
>
> Regards
> Dale Fraser
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cfj...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfj...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> > Of M@ Bourke
> > Sent: Friday, 3 February 2006 5:06 PM
> > To: cfj...@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [cfjobs] Re: CF developer req'd for Brisbane (skills shortage)
> >
> > I know an Tafe teacher
> > that teaches students java because there java IDE has no auto tabbing
> > thingo lol(forget the fancy word, brain lapse) as well as .net studio
> > stuff, because they don't want the students thinking that programming
> code
> > layout is all done by the IDE
> >
> > And also tafes have them setup web server, database server etc, so they
> > have to install all the diff programs etc.
> > hence the reason CF is a good choice for that.
> >
> > I know some CF devs from the US who learnt it in either Uni or a Tafe
> > style thingo.
> >
> > I think smart places will teach students about diff programs like
> eclipse,
> > no use having people entering the market thinking visual studio is the
> > only way you can write programs and IE is the only way you can surf the
> > web.
> >
> >
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Shane Farmer
From a different point of view:
I was a young CF developer (1 year of CF for a Brisbane ISP several
people on this list have worked for) and decided it was time to move
on to a new employer. When I was looking for jobs the main reason I
didn't look at the CF options (besides the experience needed) was
because in my opinion, the best feature of CF is also it's biggest
downfall. The fact it is so quick and easy to get a data driven web
app up and running.
I found most of the work I was doing was relatively small scale. CMS
systems, e-com and the like that are all based on an aging software
library. While in their entirety these projects may be quite big, they
have been slowly built up over time. Having a lot of small rushed
projects does not interest me (especially with a software engineering
degree with very little web stuff). I think being able to offer larger
projects that a young programmer can really sink their teeth into and
feel a real sense of ownership about is one thing that seems to be
missing.
I have recently been employed by a decent sized corporation as a Java
developer (J2SE and J2EE) and the scale of the projects being
developed are far bigger than anything I have seen in CF. Fair enough
I haven't been exposed to CF for very long but I think there is a
solid reason why big companies (enterprise level corporations) go for
Java or .net. Just the fact that a small project where I am now is
seen to be around 3 months (just on one project, no swapping project
to project). If I look up from my PC, what I can see is a server room
bigger than a lot of ISP's have full of Sun servers running Oracle
databases and all sorts of high end goodies. All this hardware is for
developing software for internal clients and other departments. We
don't even sell our software to external parties (well maybe some will
one day but right now it is all internal).
If Adobe can get CF a larger corporate profile, it will present
opportunities for these kinds of large scale projects to be developed
by CF developers. I think this would make it a lot more attractive for
young developers. The 2 biggest things young developers are after is a
secure job where they stand to learn a lot and working on projects
that are going to be challenging and meaning full. It is so fulfilling
to be able to say "yeah, I was involved in developing such and such a
project" especially when it is for a large scale high profile client.
I have mentioned it on CFAussie before but I think the Adobe merger
has the potential to take CF to these levels. CF seems to be on the
verge of a huge make or break situation. CF 7 has introduced a lot of
exciting features and the merger with Adobe means that Cf can be
marketed to a wider audience. If it is done right, CF could be in a
position to contend with Java (since the Java resources wont be wasted
with CF running on Java). If it isn't done right or isn't pushed hard
enough, it may just remain where it is in the middle between Java and
.net and other options such as PHP.
I guess all I can say is this is my (limited) experience as a CF
coder. While I way be way off the mark, the other young CF coders I
have known have had very similar experiences. I think these may be
some of the reasons young coders these days are heading towards .net
and Java. At least it was the case for me.
Thats about all the ranting I can handle for one day (It's beer
o'clock!). Sorry if it seemed a little rushed. It is just a brain dump
from a young coders point of view. Hope it helps shed some light from
my side of the fence :-)
Shane
Simon Haddon
#WARNING# I can get long winded at times.
I think every ones perspective is different. I started CF in the 4.5
days and initially I found it hard to deal with as I came from a C and
Java background. Where are the functions, OO techniques etc. I now
love the language. I have all the ease of the CF language plus the
power of functions and OO where I need it.
I have also worked on some boring and some interesting jobs in my time.
I have worked on promo sites, written a CMS (which I found really
interesting) , worked on fishing catch vs quota systems and I am
currently building a drought assessment system with a GIS interface.
It is not the language that makes anyones job boring but rather the work
you undertake. It is my experience that has made my next position
interesting and building my career in the direction that I want to go.
Saying that CF lead to allot of rush jobs just building the same thing
is not a reflection of the language but rather on reflection on the
career paths chosen. (I am not trying to make a personal attack on
anyone here. My apologies if any feels that way)
The other thing about CF is that it is taking a long time for people to
realise that CF is Java. Every time I talk to people about that it is
amazing how their opinion changes once they realise. I can see there
mind ticking away "Hey I have a language that is Java, and in fact is
j2ee, plus I have the power and easy the CF bring me at the same time.
Cool" . Once they understand what you can do with that flexibility the
are happy.
I have just moved a Government department to the world of CF for all the
positives that it brings. I told them about the pros and cons and they
decided that it was good enough to start with a clean slate. Sure it is
still in proving stage but so far all the demos have proved successful.
We have proved the benefits by creating reuseable persistent objects for
mapping and building some "engines" for things like rainfall analysis
and reporting.
The last problem is normally to do with finding people with CF skills.
It can sound like a problem but I took a team of developers with no CF
background (They had C, PHP, PL/SQL) and I gave them a mocked up 1 1/2
day training in CF and away they went writing some very complex code.
It is always worth pointing out to bosses that people can be trained in
CF and pick it up quickly as long as they have a good coding
background. Just as long as you have 1 experienced CF developer on the
team to steer things in the right direction then the others will pick it
up quickly and properly.
It is all a matter of perspective.
Aaron Christiansen
You raised some good points re: work can be boring / tedious long before the language being used is.
Simon Haddon wrote:
> The other thing about CF is that it is taking a long time for people to
> realise that CF is Java. Every time I talk to people about that it is
> amazing how their opinion changes once they realise. I can see there
> mind ticking away "Hey I have a language that is Java, and in fact is
> j2ee, plus I have the power and easy the CF bring me at the same time.
> Cool" . Once they understand what you can do with that flexibility the
> are happy.
Even CF people do not realise that with New Atlanta's BlueDragon, CF can use .net also. It is not only Adobe who have an interest (or not?) in ColdFusion's long-term viability.
Aaron
Scott Barnes
I think people on here keep missing the fundamental point, on why "we
should choose a technology". It sounds like a lot of the time (i've
been guilty of it) the point in which technology is sold up stream, in
this case "CF" is done because its "easy to develop" or "insert xyz
feature about CF here".
Coming from a Business Level perspective, where I personally deal with
a lot of Managers and Business Process based problems, I always see
the one thing that stands out.... "couldn't care what technolgy one
uses, so long as it gets me to the end goal quicker"..
When upselling CF to anyone, don't focus on the technology, focus on
the roadmap forward.
An example would be say a "Workflow Engine".
You could go down the path of ranting about how CF is XML based
anyway, and that with a bit of imagination you could turn it into a
workflow engine etc... From a Business mindset, all they hear is
"blah blah Engine blah blah blah".
Instead go:
"In 2008, we should stand a position to look at letting folks build
their Workflow's via diagram tool. Now just quickly, the diagram tool
is built in flash but thats ok, as we have most of our technology
housed on adobe products anyway. We also stand a greater chance of a
wider deployment due to the fact that flash player can slot it under
the SOE with minimal impact".
Note: Not one mention of CF is made, more about the visual side of
things. I gurantee you this, sell the managers on the end goal and
only if they ask specific technology based questions do you answer,
but answer with a spin to the end goal to it. As if you sell the
people who have the actual power, it will then be easier to pull on
the steel caps in the event an IT department who's got some loon that
rants M$ all the way.. will soon have a reality check...
Technology is not a religion.
As for Adobe broadcasting this to the wider schools? i mean come on,
calculate how many adult education centres there are in Australia,
then compare that against the world and then... try and contemplate
it. It starts with success stories in the workplace, if more products
sell in terms of creations and the wider business community picks up
on it, you stand a better footing to upsell.
Comparing Adobe to say MSDN for example is a futile argument and thin
at best. The main core reason for why .NET is so damn popular and
picked up by so many education / corporate agenda's is simply this:
Microsoft Office.
Its the core piece to all of Microsoft (along with the Operating
System). Its the crack that has everyone hooked and people always want
to change something they have, and when you start heading down the
direction of actual CMS or Business Intelligent based systems, it
typically centres around "Office" - in most companies that is.
Man, i really need my blog up bad.
--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com
Dale Fraser
Based on this businesses wouldn't care if we use Fortran, crap!
.NET is popular because of Office, crap!
What planet are you working on, things are different here on earth.
Regards
Dale Fraser
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cfj...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfj...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Scott Barnes
> Sent: Monday, 6 February 2006 9:40 AM
> To: cfj...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cfjobs] Re: CF developer req'd for Brisbane (skills shortage )
>
>
Michael Hutchinson
Scott Barnes
Just because it's your opinion, doesn't make it fact.
> Based on this businesses wouldn't care if we use Fortran, crap!
Business typically doesn't. I've had to bite my lip and sign off on
projects that fix a problem, not so much suites a technology. When you
start spending $1million+ on product it doesn't get to the argument of
"well gee, what technology should we use, hmmm I'd prefer we hold out
until we can get CF or .NET into the equation"...
Its more like
"can i run reports on my financial systems"
"can it interface to my SAP world"
"can it integrate with office, should i need it to"
"can it be customised down the track"
etc..
Software's job is to solve problems, not forcing technology down
peoples throats.
> .NET is popular because of Office, crap!
.NET has gained a lot of popularity in the Enterprise world, because
of its core foundation is often leveraged behind components within
OFFICE. I should clarify, that i mean "windows form" not "ASP
development". But anyway... since your such an ass and prefer to
attack vs discuss, then you can simply eat my ass with a spoon on such
argument. How's that suite you champ?
> What planet are you working on, things are different here on earth.
Comedy just isn't you is it?
Tell you what champ, how about you spend 8+ years preaching Coldfusion
down folks throats and then come back to here and tell me the outcome
and overall summary of what you've faced. As for me, I've done the
above and to be blunt a lot of the work Coldfusion folks have in the
enterprise field is to fix gaps between Lotus Notes or Office. Oh I'm
sure the perspective is twisted and contorted enough that mindless
monkeys like yourself see it as an end to end solution - probably the
same thought patterns had when you contemplate the current project
you're working on and wonder "gee, what if i took a step back,
analysed the situation, researched concepts like BPM and then attack
the project" - instead, you'd no doubt build in a more cut-down linear
fashion and hope it will get you by for now.
Just take a deep breathe, analyse the direction Microsoft are heading,
what they have out currently surrounding office - then, look around at
whats being built in various enterprise level situations and
contemplate "which" planet we are both on again... mines typically
facing disparate be-spoked systems that all typically share some
commonality between concepts like Email through to document management
of some sorts.
furthermore, if you note a lot of the sales pitches put on the table
say from SAP, they tend to focus on the problems, not the technology
...
ass clown.
Dale Fraser
I like your signature, but in all seriousness, if you truly believe what you
are touting, then you have blinkers on.
I have successfully migrated a 2.6m ASP development to Coldfusion another
multi year JSP development to Coldfusion and convinced the business of the
benefits of Coldfusion in the process.
Not once when pitching Coldfusion in these situations, did the technology
not get questioned. It gets questioned by the management team, then at the
board of the public companies I have worked for. These decisions are not
made lightly, and if they business didn't question the technology, then they
would be negligent.
I've also seen where big organisations have dictated technology. Like the
Australian Army dictating that all software must be .NET and this everything
had to be rewritten in .NET. It had nothing to do with office, it had to do
with their IT choice which was based on the security built into the .NET
framework.
Barry Beattie
boy who can defend himself)
the point about "it's all about end results, not specifically the
tools" was a strong part of Grant Skinners' presso at last years MXDU.
He went a bit further talking about "vision" and "future" but the
argument's in the same ballpark.
http://www.mxdu.com/go/session/how-to-sell-leverage-and-position-cfmx-and-flex
it's only *inside* the software development house that the caring of
what particular technology matters....time to market, etc.
where does this tie to CFJOBS? how do we grow the CF job market - and
not turn businesses away from CF when they can't find enough talented
people. I don't mean QR or XYZ school...I mean their software
suppliers writing the software for them. Sometines it's in-house (as a
seperate department) but those that sign the cheques for the final
product don't (usually) care**
IMHO, that's the target.
my 2c (I'll shut up now...promise)
barry.b
** with the exception of those brainwashed with (XYZ big business)
because they've been bought an expensive lunch or two.
Nathan Drury
I know this is CFJobs but I'll take the rant baton and keep running.
I think it's a noble endeavour to attempt to increase the number of CF
developers in the workforce. If there aren't enough CF developers,
rates go higher and thus the cost of developing products using CF
increases, thereby decreasing the attractiveness of CF. So there has
to be enough developers available to maintain CF's attractiveness.
It's a simple matter of the company bottom line. However, while we're
at it we should also be promoting CF as much as we can. This doesn't
mean taking our soap box to Queen St with CF Bibles* in hand and
spewing forth about Event Gateways. But it does require us to have a
good understanding of CF's capabilities so that when an opportunity
does arise to promote CF as a solution or, conversely, to defend it
against ignorant misconceptions, we are in a position to do it justice.
Shane's experience has been that CF projects are generally small and
uninteresting and Simon makes the salient point that it "is not the
language that makes anyones job boring but rather the work you
undertake". Before CF became underpinned by Java, the majority of the
work it was being used for was smaller web projects. Now, CF has some
amazing capabilities and it's up to us to learn and understand the
abilities and limitations of CF so that we can build apps that that go
beyond people expectations (ie. simple web apps). In the December
2005 CFDJ, Simon Horwith has a great article titled "Misconceptions and
Myths About ColdFusion . . . debunked"
(http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/read/172573.htm) which makes some great
points and is worth a read. Scott said that when attempting to promote
CF it's better to "focus on the roadmap forward" and on the "end goal"
rather than the actual technology to get there, and I agree. However,
at some point the topic of technology will arise and here it is
critical that we can sell the benefits of CF and be prepared to debunk
any false preconceptions of CF. The growth in the capabilities of CF
over the past few years has really taken it out of the "simple web
apps" solar system into the "enterprise applications" universe. The
sooner IT overlords and there minions of underlings feel the power of
CF (oh, now I am going on!) the better it will be for all of us.
Cheers
Nathan
* "Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Web Application Construction Kit" and
"Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Application Development" by Forta
et al.
TRACEY, Darren
This conversation has gone away from being a job ad or specific discussion
about a skill shortage in relation to a job ad.
Lets move it to cfau...@googlegroups.com where it now belongs, and keep
cfjobs as a low volume place for jobs ads.
Regards
Darren Tracey
Systems Analyst
HR Systems and Fastrack
Wealth and Corporate Systems
Suncorp
p: + 61 7 3232 4019 (x64019)
f: + 61 7 3232 4133
e: darren...@suncorp.com.au
l: Lvl 12, 388 Queen St Brisbane QLD 4000
m: Suncorp IPC IT064, GPO Box 1453, Brisbane QLD 4000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathan Drury [mailto:rust...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, 6 February 2006 10:34 AM
> To: cfjobs
> Subject: [cfjobs] Re: CF developer req'd for Brisbane (skills shortage )
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Haddon
Everything you said is right. It always depends on who your audience is. If I am talking to PHB then I don't bother with the virtues of CF but rather how a certain set of tools can help them reach their goals. If I am talking to techies then I will talk about more technical issues pertaining to the language and, still, tell them how it can help them reach their goals.
Technology should not be used for technologies sake. Descisions need to be made on merits based on required outcomes.
Easy.
Jason Hodgkiss
Scott Barnes
train this morning).
Education
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sorry to be the one that breaks it to you all, but Adobe isn't
that big. In that, it does not have the war chest made available to
spend money on various Adult education institutes in order for them to
encourage the future of Coldfusion Youth. It's too be-spoked out there
and depending on the power the proposed Education unit has, will also
depend on the requirements they have.
Asking for example a University to consider taking on criteria for
such things as "Coldfusion" is pretty low on their list of things they
need students to understand. To my understanding, its not really about
learning a language at this stage, but rather exposing them to as many
as possible in order for them to grasp the concept that there are a
number of different ways to attack a problem, and to get an
understanding of as many as you can (languages) you stand a better
chance at writing next-to-perfect architecture.
On top of this, the language is basic. You cannot get a more
simplified language on the market today then Coldfusion. The prickly
part of the learning process creeps in when you start having to weigh
up the semantics behind how to architect your CFC code base. That and
security, optimisation etc these all play a role and really can't be
taught up front. They are derived from exposure to other languages and
mainly from experience.
What will you teach the new comers to Coldfusion? More importantly
once they have been taught will they be given more preference to those
who have taught them selves. Keeping in mind, that its known that just
because a developer says "I have x years of CF experience" does not
mean they know the language. I've known a few developers that still
have put the "CFC" side of things in the "hard basket" and continue to
plow on through straight forward procedural development (not saying
that's bad actually, as in the end each to their own – provided they
deliver).
If a 'newbie' where to study for the CF Exam, they'd get a fairly good
grasp of what's expected of them within the CF development space.
So asking Adobe to push further in terms of education? I just ask am I
the only one here who knows that's just not possible both economically
and time wise (hell by the time most settle on learning criteria, the
language would of gone to another release?)
Jobs for the Future
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've personally trained / recruited a few developers in Brisbane for
the CF cause. I've watched a couple of developers whom I considered
Jnr's when I first meet them, easily pass me in terms of skill set (of
course I'll never admit that to them heh). The easiest thing I found
was teaching them the language, the hardest thing was showing them how
interesting the language can be in terms of pushing it. I've only meet
one developer whom I've worked with that really couldn't care about
the language and treated it like a clock in / clock out role. That
developer is lucky enough to get by but personally I don't see them
doing much in the space they have? To me, once a developer has been
shown the ropes and had the training wheels removed, it's up to them
to take that extra leap and immerse themselves fully.
When I typically interview potential developers who say they are "jnr
programmers" I always ask them "what projects have you been working on
at home?" – "what is your favourite thing about the language and
why".. Basically asking them fairly easy questions but trying to get
an understanding of what motivates them each day to wake up and write
code? As I take it on face value that what they say is in the resume
is correct and If they lied, cool, now its their chance to make us all
disregard the lies and say "well, it was questionable at the start,
but in the end it worked out for the best".
The one thing I would say is starving the industry of good developers
is ignorance. I hate it when I speak to co-developers about for
example "what Microsoft is doing" and I get the usual java speech or
worse, "Open source all the way". If these types of developers get a
hold of the upcoming ones, they tend to spread such ignorance.
The one other thing that is starving us all, well two is the NIH (Not
Invented Here Syndrome) and IH (Indispensable Hero) within a team.
They typically go hand and hand where a developer basically holds the
key's to the development strategies and will not let go, or let others
play in the space to gain experience. They usually sit in the senior
role and don't mind reminding the other developers of it either.
Then there comes the time when a solution needs building, and
typically it ends up being a home grown solution to something that
exists a thousand times over? This starves creativity in the end! (Yes
it does). As how can you learn and innovate when you don't take time
to learn from others and see what the potential out there is.
Kill those two aspects in a team and it would probably open you up to
more growth and get more jnrs in the door to teach them.
That's my 2c anyway.
ACTCFUG
ACTCFUG
could use some help. Lets merge! And we are now Adobe at any rate.
Check out www.actcfug.com and you will see our library alone is not
strictly ColdFusion or even Adobe/Macromedia. We need to bandup. I am
sick of not getting any help at meetings. Sigh!
ACTCFUG
technology
not get questioned. It gets questioned by the management team, then at
the
board of the public companies I have worked for. These decisions are
not
made lightly, and if they business didn't question the technology, then
they
would be negligent.
Beautiful! Say no more. PT from ACTCFUG (kinda biased)
ACTCFUG
the MM team are now with Adobe. Yes it will take a heck of a but of
getting used to. I was there at Allaire, Macromedia (not happy), but
look where CF is now. Be excited and not a whinger (pronounced
"whing-er"). And bring back MossyBlog!
ACTCFUG
the online gaming arena. I think "ass clown" - or to be aussically
correct "Arse Clown" will be my new moniker. Of course to be
XHTML1.1strict call me "arse clown".