Adobe reviews CFEclipse vs. CF Builder
Tom Chiverton
Am I the only one who hates the way they phrased the argument ?
Raffaele Castagno
> http://goo.gl/n53vM:-(
> Am I the only one who hates the way they phrased the argument ?
Raffaele
--
http://rcastagno.blogspot.com
Stephen Moretti
http://goo.gl/n53vM :-(
Am I the only one who hates the way they phrased the argument ?
Incidentally, just installing my nightly update of cfeclipse courtesy of the professional, consistent support of Denny. Thanks mate! ;)
Stephen
Peter Boughton
linking to.
As for Adam's article... well it's disappointing of Adobe to so openly
bash CFEclipse, apparently just so they can sell a few more CFBuilder
licenses.
They also "forgot" to mention that CFB costs $300, whereas CFEclipse
requires no payment (unless anyone chooses to donate).
Of course, the best way to respond to the article is simply to focus
on making CFE even better.
Mark Mandel
"CFEclipse is a free, open source tool with a large community behind it...."
So that is mentioned.
They also "forgot" to mention that CFB costs $300, whereas CFEclipse
requires no payment (unless anyone chooses to donate).
E: mark....@gmail.com
T: http://www.twitter.com/neurotic
W: www.compoundtheory.com
cf.Objective(ANZ) - Nov 18, 19 - Melbourne Australia
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Raffaele Castagno
> > They also "forgot" to mention that CFB costs $300, whereas CFEclipse
> > requires no payment (unless anyone chooses to donate).
CFEclipse dictionaries, and that the release cycle of CFEclipse is
much shorter, that many feature of CFBuilder comes from plugins
available also for CFEclipse, that CFEclipse is much lighter and so
on.
Raffaele
--
http://rcastagno.blogspot.com
denstar
...
>
> Incidentally, just installing my nightly update of cfeclipse courtesy of the
> professional, consistent support of Denny. Thanks mate! ;)
Cheers! =)
As luck would have it, I've been messing with improving the insight
and assist stuff again. This next release will be an o.k. one.
:Den
--
The excessive increase of anything causes a reaction in the opposite direction.
Plato
Peter Boughton
- they mention "commercial plug-in" during the intro paragraph, but
don't give details on it being $300.
If it was a commercial plugin that cost $10, or even just $50, then
the price might be considered insignificant, but $300 is certainly a
significant amount.
For a fairer comparison, they might have compared against the other
commercial CFML IDE (the IntelliJ one, which also costs ~$300) -
except that might have been a less favourable comparison.
Oh well - as I said; no point moaning, we just need to concentrate on
being better!
Raffaele Castagno wrote:
> that many feature of CFBuilder comes from plugins
> available also for CFEclipse, that CFEclipse is much lighter and so
> on.
Anyone know if it is feasible to produce an Aptana+CFEclipse standalone bundle?
Not as the main offering, but simply as an "express" style download.
Or are there licensing issues there?
denstar
...
>
> Of course, the best way to respond to the article is simply to focus
> on making CFE even better.
I have no choice but to make CFE even better, regardless of what other
people say. I can't exactly bang on the sources for CFB now can I?
=)
Seriously, open source is like bacon to me.
I'd appreciate it if we all try to keep it chill though. The main
thing we're all about here is CFML, whether we're paying, playing, or
whoring. =)
:Den
--
The eyes of the soul of the multitudes are unable to endure the vision
of the divine.
Plato
denstar
...
> commercial CFML IDE (the IntelliJ one, which also costs ~$300) -
> except that might have been a less favourable comparison.
And that would have been educational. Shucks.
...
> Anyone know if it is feasible to produce an Aptana+CFEclipse standalone bundle?
>
> Not as the main offering, but simply as an "express" style download.
>
> Or are there licensing issues there?
Creating a "product" (that's what Eclipse calls the standalone stuff)
is dead simple. I've even been working on an installer for it, but it
hasn't been a major priority.
I'm not a big fan of Aptana myself, but we'd been tossing the idea
around of having a couple different bundles/stacks available.
:Denny
--
The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered
by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile.
Plato
Peter Boughton
stuff in one convenient lump.
I guess we really want the most popular combo(s), whatever that might be.
Tom Chiverton
server* and it can't cope with accessing a CFC indirectly i.e. via
ColdSpring or some other indirection, which makes the feature useless
for any of the 'professional' developers they are so intent on signing
up.
Plugins-in-ColdFusion is about the only other thing I *might* miss,
but there's no killer plugin yet.
Though I think the article is targeted at managers with budget
control, tbh, rather than developers.
I used a short URL because it came out of a much less polite tweet I
made :-)
I'm certainly not going to give the article any more exposure by
commenting on it.
Tom
Jim Priest
I will have to cool off before I reply on his blog.
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:26 AM, Tom Chiverton <tom.ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://goo.gl/n53vM :-(
> Am I the only one who hates the way they phrased the argument ?
>
> --
> For more information on CFEclipse visit: cfeclipse.org
> For support, FAQ and tips and tricks visit: trac.cfeclipse.org
>
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>
denstar
> Yeah, I don't like Aptana either, but it does provide all the web
> stuff in one convenient lump.
I've been pretty happy with the WTP plugins myself. Honestly I still
use CFE for most stuff.
> I guess we really want the most popular combo(s), whatever that might be.
Totally.
We already have a good list going, I was thinking we could create
several combinations.
:Den
--
The gods' service is tolerable, man's intolerable.
Plato
Peter Boughton
Though definitely want to make it clear that the plugin route is still
a viable option, and recommended for existing Eclipse users - but I
guess that's just a matter of how it's presented on the download page.
Mark Drew
There is a product descriptor in the project, and yes, we can do a whole product download, but you know, it IS just a plugin... whatevers. Will talk to Den about doing the product whenever we are both online.
MD
> --
> For more information on CFEclipse visit: cfeclipse.org
> For support, FAQ and tips and tricks visit: trac.cfeclipse.org
>
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Mark Drew
Railo Technologies UK
Professional Open Source
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email: ma...@getrailo.com
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denstar
> My argument is it's a $300 product *from the people who make the
> server* and it can't cope with accessing a CFC indirectly i.e. via
> ColdSpring or some other indirection, which makes the feature useless
> for any of the 'professional' developers they are so intent on signing
> up.
> Plugins-in-ColdFusion is about the only other thing I *might* miss,
> but there's no killer plugin yet.
Heh. Toss in cfscript parsing, and that's all of the things I've been
working on. =)
I think I've got an idea for the ColdSpring stuff-- well, I know I do,
but I'm also trying to think of something generic for all frameworks.
Mark had done some work with the component explorer that is paving the way.
:Den
--
The good is the beautiful.
Plato
Andrew Scott
The number one thing you need to look at is this was written by an
evangelist, it was also written to highlight that they are committed to its
future. But what they don't tell you is that productivity is virtual
nothing, the amount of bugs that hinder the productivity out ways why anyone
has purchased it in the first place.
And they feel threatened that open source can be better than them.
If I was Adobe I would be considering more along the lines of fixing the
product, making it more stable rather than making this sort of comparison.
As someone who owns the initial CF Builder, I personally won't be upgrading
and that is because of the release schedule Adobe put on us, and how they
are going to force us to buy version 2 before the bugs that have annoyed us
the most are going to be fixed.
Adobe are trying to compete with open source, they have the initial upper
hand because of the RDS features. But this is not enough for someone to fork
over their hard earned cash to this product. It wouldn't take a genius to
write a killer RDS clone that would compete with Adobe and make Eclipse even
better and more attractive.
I would consider this as an emission that they are worried that their lack
of sales, is hindered by good competition and will pull any string they
think is necessary to say they are a far better product.
You have to love marketing!
Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Tom Chiverton
> evangelist, it was also written to highlight that they are committed to its
> future. But what they don't tell you is that productivity is virtual
the open source parts of Flex (now 'temporarily' closed).
> Adobe are trying to compete with open source, they have the initial upper
> hand because of the RDS features. But this is not enough for someone to fork
> over their hard earned cash to this product. It wouldn't take a genius to
CF9.0.01+CHF fine, though it needs you to poke it's 'refresh' button
once to often.
> I would consider this as an emission that they are worried that their lack
> of sales, is hindered by good competition and will pull any string they
> think is necessary to say they are a far better product.
Tom
Jim Priest
Aaron Greenlee
--
For more information on CFEclipse visit: cfeclipse.org
For support, FAQ and tips and tricks visit: trac.cfeclipse.org
You are subscribed to the Google Groups "CFEclipse Users" group.
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Stephen Moretti
Perhaps the CFEclipse community could respond with a new white paper.I've used CFEclipse. I've now use CFBuilder. The major motivation for me to give my lunch money was syntax highlighting in cfscript.
Stephen
Pradeep Viswanathan R
rather by the CFJedimaster. Ref: @cfjedimaster (PS: I have no license for a
CFB.)
Personally I am kind of disturbed by the impact of this article on the
community.
On this occasion, Thank you so much everyone for the time in CFE.
Cheers!
PradeepVizz
atilling
because I'm a Mac OS X user and CFBuilder only works in 32 bit carbon.
On Nov 24, 2:57 pm, "Pradeep Viswanathan R"
Wil Genovese
I also have CFElipse (64bit) and another Eclipse install for Java dev. I don't see any performance differences between any of them.
Wil Genovese
One man with courage makes a majority. - Andrew Jackson
Sebo
> on making CFE even better.
> and assist stuff again. This next release will be an o.k. one.
> people say. I can't exactly bang on the sources for CFB now can I?
it's bashing CFEclipse - it's better to focus on the big features it
is mentioning CFEclipse is still missing. Especially code insight (for
CFML and SQL) and refactoring are the most important parts for RAD and
I am wondering why these features are still not implemented. Don't get
me wrong, I really like to work with CFEclipse and I am a big
supporter of the open source community, though there are several
things, which could be improved.
Sebastian
Peter Boughton
> I am wondering why these features are still not implemented
Because CFML is a dynamic language with unusual syntax - so it is far
from trivial to implement these features.
However, if you pay me a year's salary in advance, I'll hand in my
notice right away, and spend 2011 eagerly working full-time on
producing awesome insight and refactoring tools which will make
everything currently available look like crude toys.
(And yes, I'd do it without pay if I didn't need food/rent/bills/etc.)
Marc Esher
> Peter Boughton:
>> Of course, the best way to respond to the article is simply to focus
>> on making CFE even better.
>
> denstar:
>> As luck would have it, I've been messing with improving the insight
>> and assist stuff again. This next release will be an o.k. one.
>
>> I have no choice but to make CFE even better, regardless of what other
>> people say. I can't exactly bang on the sources for CFB now can I?
I think this is the right approach. After reading all the noise on the
tubes, I'm firmly of two beliefs:
1) adobe did not intend to do anything malicious. the paper seems to
be accurate, and it looks like their intentions are reasonable: sell
licenses. I'm still a bit unsure why people think the paper was harsh.
2) cfeclipse and all its committers should be *damn* proud.
Looking at that matrix, which is pretty old and obviously doesn't
include all the stuff denny's been adding lately, I don't see
deficiency. I see "holy shit, you mean to tell me a handful of dudes
did all that in their free time?!?"
I think an appropriate response to "the matrix" is: "Yup, that
column's showing cfeclipse features is true, and we're darn proud of
it. so proud, in fact, that we're gonna keep on slingin' code and
improving cfeclipse"
I do not at all think CFEclipse should be in the business of "trying
to steal adobe customers". That's just silly. Don't be a party to
putting coders in the middle of some imaginary battle for mindshare.
Let coders decide. And you do that by forcing each "product" to
compete on its own merits. IF CFBuilder wants dollars, then it needs
to earn them by being an outfuckingstanding IDE for CF Developers.
CFEclipse should not care about that. CFEclipse should care about
providing a stable editor, an increasing feature set, and a place for
hackers like Denny to play. It should care about being a place where
Rick Faircloth can post 500 messages to the list begging for
rememberable code folding and, eventually, he gets it! We all benefit
from that.
It's Adobe's right to try to sell licenses, and as long as they do so
honestly -- and perhaps that's the contention here and I'd like to
hear more about perceived impropriety if in fact it exists -- then
cfeclipse shouldn't even worry about it. For fuck's sake: cfeclipse
has been around for a long time, saved so many of us from the horror
of dreamweaver, brought so many of us into the joy (and, admittedly,
pain) of the Eclipse platform, and is not going anywhere. Especially
now that cfscript coloring is working, it's back to being an editor
that many people can continue to use.
For devs who want CFBuilder extensions, GREAT! Wonderful! Thank God
there's an IDE that provides that for them. And thank God there's a
free, stable, usable IDE for ColdFusion developers on all platforms,
an IDE that has no allegiance to anything other than itself and its
users.
I would encourage all of you who are feeling like The Man is
threatening to strangle this wonderful free IDE to stop feeding that
with your negative energy. Instead, contribute. Don't destroy,
create. Contribute time, contribute docs, contribute code if you want
to learn java and a bit of the eclipse platform. It's Adobe's right to
market their product, and it's an open source project's right to ask
its users for contributions. The one thing an open source project has,
which a company trying to sell a product does not, is access to
countless developers. Corporations have budgets. CFEclipse does not.
All it has is people. and people can choose to contribute or not. But
I'll tell you this: complaining about the man is not a contribution.
It's a distraction. Put down your bitching, pick up some java, and if
you feel the urge to "fight back" or "defend", then do so with your
brains and your time.
Rock on, Denny. Do what you do, brother.
--Marc
>
> That's the point! Instead of complaining about the article - even when
> it's bashing CFEclipse - it's better to focus on the big features it
> is mentioning CFEclipse is still missing. Especially code insight (for
> CFML and SQL) and refactoring are the most important parts for RAD and
> I am wondering why these features are still not implemented. Don't get
> me wrong, I really like to work with CFEclipse and I am a big
> supporter of the open source community, though there are several
> things, which could be improved.
>
> Sebastian
>
Aaron Greenlee
Jim Priest
before I hit reply :)
We all need group counseling... Or a beer (or three)!
In all the noise several people made some really good points that I'll
try to condense in a future blog post...
Today I'll just say **THANKS** again to everyone who uses or
contributes to CFEclipse.
Gobble gobble!
Jim
Stan Winchester
thought I would never give up Homesite+/CF Studio, but now I could never go
back. I would love to help in whatever way I am able. I don't know java, but
I can write if my health allows.
Stan
> Of course, the best way to respond to the article is simply to focus
> on making CFE even better.
>
> denstar:
> As luck would have it, I've been messing with improving the insight
> and assist stuff again. This next release will be an o.k. one.
>
> I have no choice but to make CFE even better, regardless of what
> other people say. I can't exactly bang on the sources for CFB now can I?
>
Marc Esher
clearer how folk can help out. In other words, find the friction and
remove it to the degree possible.
Marc
Jim Priest
> thought I would never give up Homesite+/CF Studio, but now I could never go
> back. I would love to help in whatever way I am able. I don't know java, but
> I can write if my health allows.
This is from the old site:
http://cfeclipse.org/index.cfm/help/
We've talked about a few things which we should get started on :)
1) Setting up a online web 'call' where we could chat/brainstorm -
I'll start another thread for this...
2) Coming up with a todo list which we could publish so people would
know where we need assistance.
3) With the new site we also have a blog and I'd love to get people to
contribute writing there. You can blog about CFEclipse features,
tips, whatever you want. If you also want to edit the site/wiki let
me know and we can get you an account setup. Denny has added a lot of
new stuff which we can write about!! I know the site could use some
additions esp. on the features pages...
4) The new CFML editor matrix - we need to explore these tools and
come up with some way to break them down into a presentable list ...
commercial/OSS, IDE vs editor, code syntax or more?
http://trac.cfeclipse.org/wiki/CfmlEditorList
5) One of the threads I heard in these latest discussions was
'marketing' and I'm sure there are some creative folks here who could
help with that - banners for sites, a white paper of our own, etc.
I could go on but my wife is yelling at me - something about no work
on a holiday :)
Jim
Randy Merrill
Stephen Moretti
Someone should probably go through trac and work out which of the 143 tickets, Adam so kindly pointed out ;) are actually relevant any more, if they are actually cfeclipse issues and close or give rough priority too.
It occurs to me that it might be worth adding a ticket vote plugin to trac so that folks using cfeclipse can vote up the issues most pressing to them. That way it would be possible to see what features and issues have priority on the ground as it were. Not that Denny hasn't already done a grand job of getting so many of the list members issues fixed so quickly.
I've offered in the past and I'll offer again now; if you would like someone to do some maintenance on trac I'm happy to do so.
Stephen
denstar
...
> 1) adobe did not intend to do anything malicious. the paper seems to
> be accurate, and it looks like their intentions are reasonable: sell
> licenses. I'm still a bit unsure why people think the paper was harsh.
The paper itself was pretty innocuous.
I think the additions to it Adam made in his blog post, is what got folks riled.
They seemed more "spinny" than malicious, to me. About what one would
expect. *shrug*
<snip excellent content>
> Rock on, Denny. Do what you do, brother.
Yessir! I yam what I yam. =)
Speaking of yams-- Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! I'm lucky to be in
such good company.
:Denny
--
The man who makes everything that leads to happiness depends upon
himself, and not upon other men, has adopted the very best plan for
living happily. This is the man of moderation, the man of manly
character and of wisdom.
Plato
denstar
> Someone should probably go through trac and work out which of the 143
> tickets, Adam so kindly pointed out ;) are actually relevant any more, if
> they are actually cfeclipse issues and close or give rough priority too.
There is a lot of "cruft" in there.
The difficult part, is that the most needed tweaks are the hardest to
do, as they require significant rewrites of the core code.
I've sorta hit my stride lately though, and have been able to tweak
things that had been like flying a helicopter in the dark without
instruments before. At least there's a bit of light now. =)
> It occurs to me that it might be worth adding a ticket vote plugin to trac
> so that folks using cfeclipse can vote up the issues most pressing to them.
> That way it would be possible to see what features and issues have priority
> on the ground as it were. Not that Denny hasn't already done a grand job of
> getting so many of the list members issues fixed so quickly.
Heh. I do what I can in the face of some rather daunting problems. =)
It might seem a bit arbitrary at times, but I don't want to get burned
out, so generally roll with bits that I'm motivated and have the
wherewithal for.
I use and abuse CFE daily, so I've got a good idea of what is needed,
but I have to balance that with the above logic.
> I've offered in the past and I'll offer again now; if you would like someone
> to do some maintenance on trac I'm happy to do so.
For shizzy maing! I think you've got teh powah on trac, so feel free
to do what you will, and if you need anything (plugins?), holler!
:Den
--
The measure of a man is what he does with power.
Plato
Mark Drew
--
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denstar
Stephen now has max power for doing Trac stuff. He's in there right now. =)
:Den
--
The punishment which the wise suffer who refuse to take part in the
government, is to live under the government of worse men.
Plato
Sebo
> so that folks using cfeclipse can vote up the issues most pressing to them.
> That way it would be possible to see what features and issues have priority
> on the ground as it were. Not that Denny hasn't already done a grand job of
> getting so many of the list members issues fixed so quickly.
Firebug Working Group (since I am part of them):
Try to make a clear plan of the features and bug fixes the next
version includes by picking the most wanted ones from the issues list.
Of course things like code insight might not be done in one point
release, but could probably done in parts.
Btw. thanks Marc for emphasizing what I meant. :-)
Unfortunately I am not a Java developer and my few spare time doesn't
give much space for diving into CFEclipse's code. But at least I can
write or comment to issues in trac or edit the wiki articles a bit.
Greetings from Germany
Sebastian