ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

If you are interested,

 

Take part in this, I will publish the results.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

[Dale Fraser]

Wow,

 

There have been a lot of responses so far, I'll keep this thing running for a while I think, but might do some interim stats along the way.

 

There are some very interesting things in there, some of which are very good and some bad

 

I should also mention that it's only a short one page survey with only 7 questions that doesn't ask for any form of identification.

[Dale Fraser]

Day 1 summary. Let me know if there is a stat you might be interested in.

 

7% of people have used ColdFusion for between 0 & 2 years.

38% of people use ColdFusion 75%-90% of the time

41% earn between 60k-80k

93% of people are on Coldfusion 7

76% of people will upgrade to CF8, 20% not sure and only 4% wont

87% of people are not moving to another technology

50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET

69% of people will never move technology

17% of people will look to move to new technologies 1-2+ years from now.

 

I'll keep my eye on it, but there are decent numbers, so the % probably won't slide much either way.

 

Overall, I think the stats are pretty good, only really bad one is the number of new developers, which is a big worry. From an Adobe point of view, lots of good things, big % to go to CF8 and big % never plan on not using ColdFusion.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Fraser

Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 1:13 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] ColdFusion Survey

 

If you are interested,

[Andrew Scott]

Well,

 

I did the survey...

 

I am moving into my 13th year as a Coldfusion developer, my Salary is high average and would move to CF 8 if I could. I am moving to another language (java) because I have no choice on the matter and I will be doing that from last week onwards.

 

The biggest problem is the cost of Coldfusion, and not the difference between the USD and AUD but the cost of Enterprise deployment. Coldfusion has the potential to be a market leader for its RAD, but is let down by the license cost.  Open source will kill Coldfusion, and even though there is Railo. It is not open source and even it is too expensive for Enterprise licensing. Then there is the smith project, yes it is open source but it is not ready for what we need in an application now.

 

My biggest problem was the Coldfusion Survey that Adobe did last year, and I was thinking great there is some stuff there that will be moving in the right direction. But CF8 has not proved that at all. Don’t get me wrong it has some great new features, and speed wise has improved. But the reality is the market, it is not cost effective anymore for developing in CF and this needs to change like yesterday.

 

Coldfusion 8 should have moved in this direction, and yet it hasn’t.

 

1)      Open sourced engine or free with everything that has no license for 3^rd party additions.

2)      Provide a mechanism to allow better plugin support, CFX has not been improved since V5.0

3)      Provide the extra functionality that requires a license as a plugin an a needed basis at a cost.

4)      Provide an API for the user to hook into cftags and introduce extra functionality. (Still debating on this one)

 

These do not seem that important, but let’s look at a project that we are developing. We are using such things as velocity and sitemesh, to provide great templates on one of our projects and provides an API that allows great additions to anyone wanting to use them. And one day I would like to see how I can intergrate sitemesh and velocity into Coldfusion, or any other rendering engine that might come along.

 

Even with the argument of RAD and time saved with the features of coldfusion, that we have now duplicated in Java the time taken to incorporate, can’t justify the cost of an enterprise license.  And my boss a Coldfusion developer, knows what Coldfusion can deliver but will not look at adding that much cost to an application we plan on selling, it is not cost effective to us and our business model.

 

It is a shame Allaire / Macromedia wasn’t listening when I was discussing this problem 5-6 years ago..

 

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 4:19 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

Day 1 summary. Let me know if there is a stat you might be interested in.

 

7% of people have used ColdFusion for between 0 & 2 years.

38% of people use ColdFusion 75%-90% of the time

41% earn between 60k-80k

93% of people are on Coldfusion 7

76% of people will upgrade to CF8, 20% not sure and only 4% wont

87% of people are not moving to another technology

50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET

69% of people will never move technology

17% of people will look to move to new technologies 1-2+ years from now.

 

I'll keep my eye on it, but there are decent numbers, so the % probably won't slide much either way.

 

Overall, I think the stats are pretty good, only really bad one is the number of new developers, which is a big worry. From an Adobe point of view, lots of good things, big % to go to CF8 and big % never plan on not using ColdFusion.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

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[Steve Onnis]

41% earn between 60k-80k > Thats a pretty big gap though.

---

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Fraser

Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 4:19 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

$20-40k 3%

$40-$60k 17%

$60-$80k 45%

$80-$100k 15%

$100k + 20%

 

0% of people using Coldfusion 5 :)

<BR

[MrBuzzy]

We only got to choose one :)

[M@ Bourke]

I filled it out, how ever being in a diff country I don't think the wage thing would be valid.
how ever if many people from other countries also do the survey it will throw out the wage thing, for example a US person might think it's US $, a UK person might convert to USD or know it's AUD etc.
I'd say somewhere it's just for aussie devs (if it doesn't already say on it)

M@

[Peter Tilbrook]

And I was forced to choose CF7 even though I am using CF8 exclusively.

--
Peter Tilbrook
ColdGen Internet Solutions
President, ACT and Region ColdFusion Users Group
PO Box 2247
Queanbeyan, NSW, 2620
AUSTRALIA

http://www.coldgen.com/
http://www.actcfug.com/

Tel: +61-2-6284-2727
Mob: +61-0432-897-437

Email: pe...@tilbrook.name
MSN Messenger Live: Desktop General

[Dale Fraser]

It is called the ColdFusion Australian Developer Survey

 

And since I only posted here, most people will be Aussies.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 6:42 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

I filled it out, how ever being in a diff country I don't think the wage thing would be valid.

[Dale Fraser]

Well at least you would have been a yes for upgrade.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Peter Tilbrook
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 7:06 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Peter Tilbrook]

M@ is an Aussie but working overseas (London I think).

[M@ Bourke]

But wage differences would throw out the results if Aussies in diff countries were to fill it out, and then someone in oz wanted to work out market rates of oz roles.
on a diff note, state would have been a good option for the survey, to see if Brisvegas is still the cf capital

[Dale Fraser]

Well it’s just a survey.

 

People lie in Surveys also, put higher salaries etc. So I’d use the figures as a guide not gospel. There are differences between VIC / NSW also but I wanted to keep it simple.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 8:27 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

But wage differences would throw out the results if Aussies in diff countries were to fill it out, and then someone in oz wanted to work out market rates of oz roles.

[Haikal Saadh]

> 50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET
>

What about the other 50%? Java?

[Mark Mandel]

I was thinking about 'moving technology' as I drove into work today...

If I ever want to do that, the first place I would end up moving would
be to something like Flex or AIR applications, simply because of the
demand, and because I could keep my hands in CF still.

From there I would probably move to Java - but realistically I would
want to stay in Adobe space for as long as I could - and I think that
there are enough jobs out there to do that without any trouble.

Mark

On 6/27/07, Haikal Saadh <haikal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > 50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET
> >
> What about the other 50%? Java?
>
> >
>

--
E: mark....@gmail.com
W: www.compoundtheory.com

[Dale Fraser]

Here are the status for people moving to new technologies.

.NET 42%
PHP 29%
Other 15%
Java 14%
Ruby 0%

Remember that only 13% of people surveyed are moving.

I wonder what the other is, did I miss some key technology?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

Of Haikal Saadh
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:12 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Personally I would put Java down the list, probably about the position it
got ranked.

The reasons are numerous, but in summary

1. It's overly complicated java classes etc
2. It changes too much
3. It's desktop development is years behind .NET

I think that's probably why .NET won, because you can use one language and
framework and develop for web, mobiles, desktop, server etc. But I'm
probably biased as we develop both client and server components, currently
in C++ and ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

Of Mark Mandel
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:22 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Not sure about key...

But there is perl, awk, lisp to name a few off the top of my head.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:32 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

Here are the status for people moving to new technologies.

.NET 42%
PHP 29%
Other 15%
Java 14%
Ruby 0%

Remember that only 13% of people surveyed are moving.

I wonder what the other is, did I miss some key technology?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

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Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM

[Dale Fraser]

Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

Hmm, I think you and I are not on the same page.

As far as over complicated classes, I will disagree. I would love that
complication in CF, and the reason behind that is Design Patterns and
Coldfusion can do these patterns just not efficient enough.

Well we go interfaces anyway, and that will be the most ever used new
feature to come out of CF8.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:40 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

Personally I would put Java down the list, probably about the position it
got ranked.

The reasons are numerous, but in summary

1. It's overly complicated java classes etc
2. It changes too much
3. It's desktop development is years behind .NET

I think that's probably why .NET won, because you can use one language and
framework and develop for web, mobiles, desktop, server etc. But I'm
probably biased as we develop both client and server components, currently
in C++ and ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.

[Andrew Scott]

No, that was not what I was implying. Just that there are certainly more
options out there from a cgi perspective than what you listed.

So other could be covering up to 20 more technologies that aren't
mainstream.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:47 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.

[Dale Fraser]

I'm talking about the Java classes you get to work with. They are ugly.

Simple things become very complicated, reading a text file for example and
writing to a text file are totally different classes with different methods
etc.

There are heaps of examples like this.

Java have hurt themselves more than anyone else has, the create confusion
with branding choices, the have fights with bigger companies getting them
selves excluded.

Just my opinion, but they are right down on my list.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

[Dale Fraser]

Yeah, but what?

What is this % of people moving to from ColdFusion. I can't even think of
another option to consider than what I listed.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

[Robin Hilliard]

On 26/06/2007, at 4:56 PM, Andrew Scott wrote:

         Provide a mechanism to allow better plugin support, CFX has not been improved since V5.0

By plug-in do you specifically mean custom tags?  What's wrong with all the other stuff (web services, gateways, direct Java class access, .NET assembly support in CF8) that allows you to extend CF?

The biggest problem is the cost of Coldfusion, and not the difference between the USD and AUD but the cost of Enterprise deployment. Coldfusion has the potential to be a market leader for its RAD, but is let down by the license cost.  Open source will kill Coldfusion

Is your issue cost or Open Source?  They are different things.  Cost-wise, you know that there have always been free alternatives to ColdFusion.  And I'd argue that ColdFusion IS the leader in the paid-for, commercial application  server market.  Compare it to Websphere, Weblogic, Oracle and others that aren't provided for free (with or without an OS) and it's orders of magnitude cheaper and more popular.  You may say that's being selective, but really, is a market where everything is free still a market?

I can't see the business case for Macromedia/Adobe to have made ColdFusion free 5-6 years ago.  Perhaps you could tell us what your pitch to the Macromedia shareholders would have been: presumably something better than "Hey, if we make ColdFusion free we can earn no revenue and pay a few million in salary each year for a greater usage of ColdFusion". There is no later point at which Adobe benefits financially from ColdFusion adaptation.  In this it is unlike the free Flex SDK and Flash players - these drive migration to the Flash platform, and Adobe earns licensing revenue later on from licensing Flash on hardware devices.

And my boss a Coldfusion developer, knows what Coldfusion can deliver but will not look at adding that much cost to an application we plan on selling, it is not cost effective to us and our business model.

Have you have investigated OEM licensing of ColdFusion - or what about an ASP model?

Cheers,

Robin

                                                        

Robin Hilliard

CEO - RocketBoots Pty Limited

Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training

http://www.rocketboots.com.au

m    +61 418 414 341

e    ro...@rocketboots.com.au

[Andrew Scott]

And .Net falls into the same category as Java.

The thing is abstraction, both Java and .Net provide a safe mechanism to use
the underlying framework, and it's up to you if you decide to use the lower
level API or the higher level API.

File access is a good example, of how you can raw read, or an the interface
for buffering the file, it is not complicated when you understand why they
exist and when to use them.

One of the best things is that it has been designed to allow for refactoring
easily as has .Net

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

Dale,

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this incoming message.

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

You will be surprised what people will look at, they might know a perl
evangelist and was talked into going to perl. They might have had a C/C++
background and have been asked to write true CGI interfacing.

Or god forbid they looked at the need for lotus notes development, and have
been persuaded by the dark side.

There are many reasons for one's decision. Like mine to Java, it is forced
upon me and the others if I want to remain with this company. Just like your
Java developers when you took your position, learn or move on.

Yeah, but what?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

Andrew,

Seriously?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this incoming message.

[Andrew Scott]

Robin,

 

Yes I am talking about tag / function development.

 

Web services, can’t fault that as java2wsdl and wsdl2java is the most used. Gateways, well natively I have to use what is implemented, but what if I want to override that functionality with another 3^rd party. The only way to do this is to write more code to interface into this, which is not providing a mechanism to override.

 

Java and .Net access is not the issue, unless I could run the 2 in the same template as CFML (Coldfusion 8 can’t handle that) Bluedragon yes, coldfusion no.

 

As for cost vs open source, yes they are different.

 

Open source, let’s look at the .Net integration currently this use the JNDI  .Net bridge which costs to use and in 6 months time someone releases an open source version. How can I incorporate that into Coldfusion to override the implemented one in Coldfusion now. So that I could use the same code without having to rewrite every CreateObject? You have to love design patterns, that is why they exist so that refactoring is kept to a minimal.

 

You can’t compare coldfusion to Application Servers, coldfusion is a scripting interpreter that runs on an Application server. Now JRun is behind the eight ball, sure it has been patched to run Coldfusion 8 but how many J2EE applications do not run on JRun.

 

I tried to get Roller (apache weblogger) running on JRun, to find that there is an issue running struts on JRun. Jira the most popular ticketing / issue tracker will not install on JRun nor will confluence. So if you want to make a comparison of Application Servers then compare JRun to JBoss, Websphere etc.

 

Now the argument I make is simple, how can I incorporate rendering engines like sitemesh or verlocity into Coldfusion easily or wish to incorporate our rendering engine for templating API’s into coldfusion it can’t be done at the level it needs to be done.

 

Now as you can see I am talking at an Enterprise level, these sort of things wouldn’t be the average cup of tea for standard every day users. But the thing is that the Cost of coldfusion is $10k for a 2 cpu license, we spent around $2k developing the infrastructure to incorporate all that we need (open source projects) into an Application to run on any Application Server, except JRun due to the limitations of JRun.

 

Now in the infrastructure we are looking at, that’s $2k compared to $750k.

 

Now tell me how Coldfusion cost is valid?

 

And we get to patch our application anytime we want, we do not rely on a closed application and we can fix the open source code any time and submit back to the application development team. But the thing is that we are not hindered into moving forward at anytime, nor are we waiting 2 years for a solution to a problem and if something is not working we remove and replace with something that is maybe better and due to design patterns in place the factory patterns have allowed us to do this with minimal impact to our application.

 

Coldfusion is not going to win Enterprise development, unless it is hosting companies where they can maybe make some of their money back by virtualisation of the servers.

 

Look I am a diehard coldfusion developer, I will remain developing in my spare time but I can’t justify what we need to do in an Enterprise solution, and even consider Coldfusion for that matter. And we are not alone, this is why Coldfusion will not make a serious impact anymore on Enterpirse deployments (notice I said deployments) Because we are not going to tie our application to one Application server and the license of coldfusion places to much cost on our application.

 

Oh and when I beta Tested the very first carnation of Coldfusion Rebort Builder, I posted a bug that stated while Report builder can not place boxes, lines etc across sections they are cutting their own throats. You can’t use an application like report builder and be serious about providing a service for reports, when open source and free alternatives provide a better solution. And yet there is no way to override the cftags, you need to provide a facade to the problem.

 

I could go on and on, but after 5 years report builder is still a pathetic abortion to something that was a half assed attempt to provide a solution, this is something that as annoyed me with every new release of Coldfusion and we can’t override or fix these annoyances and have to keep complaining till they get fixed.

 

We as a company can’t afford to wait 5 years for something that might or might not get fixed, and look for an alternative solution now. And this is why management are not seriously looking into Coldfusion on an Enterprise level. We have a project manager here who used to work for eBay and he hates Microsoft, but he is good at what he does and I tell you know I am only echoing what I and others are up against when trying to defend coldfusion, how can we when we have no leg to stand on?

 

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.

[Dale Fraser]

Andrew,

"when you took your position, learn or move on"

I did learn it, and I did move on, moved on to ColdFusion.

[Andrew Scott]

Sorry Dale,

That was worded wrong, I wasn't referring to you I meant your java
developers. But I applauded you for winning over the Java development
mentality.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 12:15 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

Andrew,

"when you took your position, learn or move on"

I did learn it, and I did move on, moved on to ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.

[Mark Ireland]

How can I work out how it is that the column order is preserved in a
wddxPacket and not in a cfquery?

<cfwddx action="cfml2wddx" input="#searchclasses#" output="wddxQueryOutput">
<cfset
recordsetElem=xmlsearch(xmlparse(wddxQueryOutput),"/wddxPacket/data/recordset")>
<cfset fieldNames=recordsetElem[1].xmlAttributes.fieldNames>

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[Dale Fraser]

Firstly I'm on a free Survey Monkey account, which only allows 100 responses, so we are not far from that, so if you wanted to take part and haven't yet, then do so here.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

 

Once it hits 100, I will post all the final results.

 

How long have you been using ColdFusion
Less than 1 Year	4.9%
1 - 2 Years	1.6%
3 - 4 Years	11.5%
5 - 9 Years	67.2%
10 + Years	14.8%
What percentage of your time do you spend writing ColdFusion code
90% - 100%	18.0%
75% - 90%	26.2%
50% - 75%	21.3%
25% - 50%	23.0%
0% - 25%	11.5%
Yearly Salary excluding Superannuation
$20,000 - $40,000	1.6%
$40,000 - $60,000	16.4%
$60,000 - $80,000	44.3%
$80,000 - $100,000	14.8%
$100,000 - $120,000	4.9%
$120,000 - $140,000	6.6%
$140,000 +	11.5%
What Version are you using
Version 5	1.6%
Version 6	8.2%
Version 7	90.2%
Will you upgrade to ColdFusion 8
Yes	75.4%
No	3.3%
Unsure	21.3%
Are you moving to another technology
No	86.9%
.NET	6.6%
Java	1.6%
PHP	3.3%
Ruby	0.0%
Other	1.6%
When are you likely to move technologies
Never	63.9%
0-3 Months	8.2%
3-6 Months	1.6%
6-12 Months	6.6%
1-2 Years	9.8%
2+ Years	9.8%

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Fraser

Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 1:13 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [cfaussie] ColdFusion Survey

 

If you are interested,

 

Take part in this, I will publish the results.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

[Haikal Saadh]

See... doing things with the stock standard java classes, the lot you
download from Sun, can be a right pain, as you correctly point.

However, no Java dev. worth his salt will limit himself to just that.
There are heaps of libraries and frameworks that make coding in java
much more pleasant. A bold claim, sure, but ask anyone who knows their
way beyond what's available on java.sun.com.

[Dale Fraser]

I understand that, but that in my opinion this is another negative.

I don't want to have to go search for a library to do something simple, I
should be able to do basic stuff without writing Classes or finding
libraries.

In ColdFusion, there are only 2 external libraries we use. Zip & Image

With ColdFusion 8 there will be none.

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

 

Are you serious?

 

With DI and ORM's do you know how much work these remove away from the developer?

 

Each to their own I guess....

[Peter Tilbrook]

In ColdFusion, there are only 2 external libraries we use. Zip & Image

With ColdFusion 8 there will be none.

>>

Um CF8 is as much java supported as 6 and 7. What are you trying to
say (without breaking NDA)?

[Dale Fraser]

Peter,

There is no NDA issues, CF8 is public Beta and in case everyone didn't
already know

Coldfusion 8

Has both ZIP and Image tags

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Peter Tilbrook
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 8:32 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Peter has been subdued by the request scope again.

 

On 6/27/07, Dale Fraser <da...@fraser.id.au> wrote:

[M@ Bourke]

Gold!!

M@
who loves the humour of this list.

[Dale Fraser]

I keep thinking that request scope joke is getting old, but I keep laughing.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 8:58 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

Gold!!

[Andrew Scott]

Well, it's easy than saying WTF has java got to do with your statement:-)

 

I sometimes think that Peter is a sufferer of Asperger's Syndrome or Higher Functioning Autism Disorder. But then knowing one myself, I know they are very intelligent just misguided an a social level.

 

 

 

On 6/27/07, Dale Fraser <da...@fraser.id.au> wrote:

[Peter Tilbrook]

OK guys enough is enough :)

[Andrew Scott]

Well Peter you are an easy target, and the silly thing is you where the one who harped on about the public release and to come back with that...

 

Peter, you have to admit you have to see the light hearted side of it :P

[Dale Fraser]

Haha,

 

We have a test for that, it’s called SECT

 

Social Emotional Cognition Test

 

http://www.cogstate.com/go/clinicaltrials/our-tests/social-emotional-cognition

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 9:08 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

Well, it's easy than saying WTF has java got to do with your statement:-)

[Simon Haddon]

Hi Andrew,

I was just plowing through this thread and just came across your comment.  You had me rolling on the floor in laughter.

Cheers,
Simon

On 27/06/07, Andrew Scott <andrew...@aegeon.com.au> wrote:

--
Cheers
Simon Haddon

[Andrew Scott]

What does that test? Or more to the point, what is it testing for?

[Dale Fraser]

It’s testing for schizophrenia.

 

One of several tests in a battery for this.

 

Apparently schizophrenics can not read social scenes, this would not be able to detect which image is different.

 

Mind you our tests detect change in conditions not the presence of conditions, ie is the patient improving or declining after drug X

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 9:26 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

What does that test? Or more to the point, what is it testing for?

[Peter Tilbrook]

Yes. OK you hate my guts. That is fine. Really. I can deal with it.

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

 

That sounds interesting, however that generalisation could fall into Asperger as well. So obviously there are other test to go with that for a full evaluation.

 

On 6/27/07, Dale Fraser <da...@fraser.id.au> wrote:

It's testing for schizophrenia.

 

One of several tests in a battery for this.

 

Apparently schizophrenics can not read social scenes, this would not be able to detect which image is different.

 

Mind you our tests detect change in conditions not the presence of conditions, ie is the patient improving or declining after drug X

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 9:26 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

What does that test? Or more to the point, what is it testing for?

 

On 6/27/07, Dale Fraser <da...@fraser.id.au> wrote:

Haha,

 

We have a test for that, it's called SECT

 

Social Emotional Cognition Test

 

http://www.cogstate.com/go/clinicaltrials/our-tests/social-emotional-cognition

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

[Andrew Scott]

Peter,

 

I do not even know you, how can I hate you...
 

I really think you are funny at times...

 

On 6/27/07, Peter Tilbrook <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Peter Tilbrook]

As far as I know I am still under NDA for Scorpio - as much as I like
it and all.

I actually Suffer from AllaireiteMacromeStriationAdobe syndrome.

[Andrew Scott]

Peter,

 

You off all people would know that the NDA goes out the window when it is publicly released, after all whats the point. Your competition will already be able to see for themselves now.

 

And it was even posted on that site I can't mention, called the beta programme that it will become NULL and void.

 

Of course you where out to lunch when the memo came into the office.

 

And please the request scope did not eat your memo, might have eaten part of your memory but not your notes.

 

On 6/27/07, Peter Tilbrook <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Geoff Bowers]

On Jun 27, 8:28 pm, "Andrew Scott" <andrew.sc...@aegeon.com.au> wrote:
> With DI and ORM's do you know how much work these remove away from the
> developer?
>
> Each to their own I guess....

What's wrong with CF ORMs; Transfer, Reactor, fourq (embedded in
FarCry), etc? There are plenty of examples of modern design patterns
in use throughout the ColdFusion community.

Sounds like the only reason Enterprise CF is not a viable option for
your business is that you can't factor in the license cost for
distributing an application. Have you tried an OEM deal? If its a
packaged application you can get inexpensive options for licensing CF/
BD.

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/

[Steve Onnis]

Who would you contact about that sort of thing Geoff? The OEM side of
things?

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Geoff Bowers
Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 12:23 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Geoff,

 

I'll tell you know an Enterprise license would need to be around $250 AUD for us to be viable, is that possible with an OEM license?

 

Would love to know more, that would be the ammunition I would love to hear more about.

 

As Steve said who do you speak too?

 

--

Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.

[Andrew Scott]

Geoff,

 

You have a good habbit of not reading things correctly.

 

I said to Dale what is wrong with DI etc.,
 

There are other reasons that Enterpirse is not viable for us, but if the OEM license can be passed onto the user of the application for $250 then I have a serious debate with my boss.

 

But the cheaper the better I tell you that now...

 

[Geoff Bowers]

On Jun 28, 2:10 am, "Andrew Scott" <andrew.sc...@aegeon.com.au> wrote:
> There are other reasons that Enterpirse is not viable for us, but if the OEM
> license can be passed onto the user of the application for $250 then I have
> a serious debate with my boss.
>
> But the cheaper the better I tell you that now...

You can't justify the expense of the CF license as your product
doesn't leverage enough from CF. Or you don't sell enough of it to
make the cost of CF work for you. That's fine. Use Java/.NET/Babbage
Difference Engine/whatever and cobble together your own environment.
So there you have it: end of another mind numbing thread.

Please stop belly-aching about ColdFusion and how it doesn't match
*your* requirements. None of us on this list really care.

Regards,

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/

[Geoff Bowers]

On Jun 28, 12:25 am, "Steve Onnis" <s...@cfcentral.com.au> wrote:
> Who would you contact about that sort of thing Geoff? The OEM side of
> things?

OEM generally works on the basis that the engine (in this case CF)
will only be deployed to run your solution or extensions of it.
Therefore it has less utility than a standard license, and doesn't
detract from the vendor's market as it only works with your solution.

Pricing:
You have a couple of units to sell --> price approximates reseller buy
price.
You are happy to pre-order a truck load of units --> price rapidly
decreases.
You may even be able to get a fixed price for unlimited units if you
stump up a lot of cash.

Who to talk to? Well at Adobe you could contact the local Partner
manager and enquire about OEM licensing options. If you are talking
about flogging a lot of units you'll find the right person to talk to
very quickly; it's not like trying to get support for an existing
installation ;) Also I hear New Atlanta are very keen for OEM style
deals, just call their offices.

Hope that helps,

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/

[Andrew Scott]

Geoff,

You really did not make sense, my beef is with the cost. Not how much we
leverage of Coldfusion or not.

But all I can say, is that we are looking at a hardware infrastructure that
would see us need to spend in excess of $700k in licensing of Coldfusion
only. Compare that to the $2k we spent and tell me why big enterprises won't
use Coldfusion.

And explain to the rest of us how you would justify going the Coldfusion
route.

Again it has nothing to do about what I develop in, or what I love. It comes
down to what the businesses and companies of australia are prepaired to
spend.

And all I can say to you Geoff, is this. If you where in the position to
create an Application, and hardware infastructure for a very larger project,
and you could spend $2k in software comapred to $700k what business decision
would you take, knowing that there is no way you can recoup the $700k?

And to shut you up Geoff, I will die a Coldfusion programmer if I have the
chance.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.

www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613 8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf

Of Geoff Bowers
Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 9:49 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

Regards,

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
11:54 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
11:54 PM

[Dale Fraser]

700k? Did you mean 70k

700k would be 100 servers worth of enterprise

I'm assuming that means you have 100 companies with their own servers who
need a licence, in which case that would be their cost not yours.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

$700k is correct, you have no idea how big this project is and the company
is full steam ahead on this. This is projected based on the penetration
forecast of the project into the market, and what amount of hardware is
needed to run on.

But the company has no way of recouping licensing costs on this project
either.

Don't ask me anymore questions, this is so NDA its not funny.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 11:17 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

700k? Did you mean 70k

700k would be 100 servers worth of enterprise

I'm assuming that means you have 100 companies with their own servers who
need a licence, in which case that would be their cost not yours.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.

[skateboard.com.au]

Hi All

Sorry, but I havn't really paid too much attention to all things CF in
the last few years.

What does CF have in enterprise these days thats so important?
Can't you just run your average app on BlueDragon for free anyway?

thanks

Drew Peacock

[Andrew Scott]

Drew,

1) Can't speak for Coldfusion 8, as I believe the differences are changing.
But under CFMX7+, the speed of Enterprise is faster, it also has Gateways to
name a few of the differences. There is a feature edition matrix somewhere
that will go into this in more detail. Also the ability to run of other
Application Servers, which you can't do with the standard version.

2) BlueDragon is not free, please go and double check what you do know about
BlueDragon.

3) Enterprise applications are not average applications, if they were then
the world would have no need for J2EE development.

[Derision]

You really are a total knob Andrew. Please please please, switch to a
different language that will help you sell your shitbox app thats oh
so top secret and go bother some other list.

I really don't know why anyone bothers helping you on these lists.
Seriously hope you get hit by a car and die in a fire.

Have a nice day.

[Scott Barnes]

Hi Dale,

 

Great work btw, as this is good news for the CF Community as i'd consider that a morale boost that CF is still here to play and play hard at that.

 

I found it interesting that 6% would move to .NET rather then Java? Personally I moved to .NET because of job oppurtunities and I'm more of a visual developer then a server-side on these days, but it was a 50/50 at one stage between .NET and Java..

 

I honestly thought the bulk of the "Move away" would end up Java?

 

On 6/27/07, Dale Fraser <da...@fraser.id.au> wrote:

Firstly I'm on a free Survey Monkey account, which only allows 100 responses, so we are not far from that, so if you wanted to take part and haven't yet, then do so here.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

 

Once it hits 100, I will post all the final results.

 

How long have you been using ColdFusion
Less than 1 Year	4.9%
1 - 2 Years	1.6%
3 - 4 Years	11.5%
5 - 9 Years	67.2%
10 + Years	14.8%
What percentage of your time do you spend writing ColdFusion code
90% - 100%	18.0%
75% - 90%	26.2%
50% - 75%	21.3%
25% - 50%	23.0%
0% - 25%	11.5%
Yearly Salary excluding Superannuation
$20,000 - $40,000	1.6%
$40,000 - $60,000	16.4%
$60,000 - $80,000	44.3%
$80,000 - $100,000	14.8%
$100,000 - $120,000	4.9%
$120,000 - $140,000	6.6%
$140,000 +	11.5%
What Version are you using
Version 5	1.6%
Version 6	8.2%
Version 7	90.2%
Will you upgrade to ColdFusion 8
Yes	75.4%
No	3.3%
Unsure	21.3%
Are you moving to another technology
No	86.9%
.NET	6.6%
Java	1.6%
PHP	3.3%
Ruby	0.0%
Other	1.6%
When are you likely to move technologies
Never	63.9%
0-3 Months	8.2%
3-6 Months	1.6%
6-12 Months	6.6%
1-2 Years	9.8%
2+ Years	9.8%

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Fraser

Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 1:13 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [cfaussie] ColdFusion Survey

 

If you are interested,

 

Take part in this, I will publish the results.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

[Scott Barnes]

At 700k worth of infrastructure seems excessive for a Coldfusion only based solution? Are these servers set aside purely to spin-up Coldfusion only or do they have other sides to their story?

 

Whilst most are going the usual "Anti-Andrew" approach on this thread (Relax more dude, let the conversation flow), I'm curious to see how 700k gets put on the table first, only to then question software license models - it seems like the Software Architecture isn't being planned appropriately, secondly you're not in contact with your Suppliers (Adobe in this case) and thirdly you're airing what appears to be sensitive information on a public thread.

 

If you were about to spin-up $700k in hosting infrastructure and it came down to Software OEM models as cause for concern.. I would hope Adobe are in their fast to help ease your pain points as that sounds like a significant win for N+ technology such as Coldfusion :)

 

--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com
 

[Dale Fraser]

Thanks Scott,

 

I am overall very happy with the responses, makes me confident that ColdFusion will have a strong take up, that not everyone is changing technologies and that people with ColdFusion skills can earn a decent living.

 

Thanks to everyone who took part also, really wasn't sure on number of responses I would get.

 

I also thought that Java would be higher percentage than .NET but I would be in the .NET boat so I can understand why people would pick it.

 

As for the side debate on pricing, I think it's off topic a bit to this discussion, obviously a large % of people don't care as they are Yes for upgrade, myself included.

[Andrew Scott]

Scott,

 

Ok there are some things that I can discuss, and i'll answer what I can.

 

First of all the $700k is based on the licensing of CF Enterprise Edition only, secondly it is a forecasted model for the infrastructure required. And yes there are more to these boxes than the eye can read.

 

The point of discussion is this, and others haven't picked up on it yet. Here is what we have achieved, and no its not going to break any NDA that I am under.

 

Using JSP, Struts, Spring, Hibernate, and a few other software that sits on top of an application server we have a product that is going (hopefully) be very profitable. Now, the thing is that some of the features that CF would have been used for, IM, gateways, html processing, PDF documents, reports to name a few.

 

We have sourced all open source solutions, and what licenses we have paid for comes to a total of $2k.

 

What coldfusion would have been good for, is the middle tear application that delivered in a very short time frame all those solutions with minimal coding, plus the ability to prove the other features we have for client side more easily.
 

But as I said without even going beyond one machine, we are looking at $10k AUD for a license cheaper if we go to Adobe. There is an $8k saving already for us to deliver what we have so far, so JSP was the answer it is free, requires no license to deploy and we have no more added costs if we have to expand. I can not say the same for Coldfusion.

 

Now as the infastructure requires more than 1 machine, then each machine is going to increase the cost of the CF license and yet we have a set $2k license for what we have no matter how many machines we end up needing to deploy too.

 

Now the regardless or not of what we are looking at, one has to seriously look at how many larger companies are looking for Enterprise solutions and then look at the cost of a CF license ontop of devleopment costs to deliver. The point is it shows that coldfusion is not a competitor (a serious one) in that market, I know that there are TLP licensing but I am not the one who controls the finances.

 

And the descion was made based on what is known to the managment, this is the problem that Coldfusion faces whether I am a die hard evangalist or not, one has to look at the reality of what companies are doing and why they are doing it.

 

Sure there is a lot of work for boutiques, web development for the average developer. But seriously how many people on this list as used Coldfusion in an Enterprise solution to this sort of scale.

 

This is not about me and my gripes, this is about every Coldfusion developer and how we are loosing a market due to costings.

 

And @Derison, grow up. Look at the bigger picture of what we have to compete with before opening your mouth.

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

 

If I had a choice over .Net or Java I would go .Net too. Why I am not sure, just that I feel more comfortable with .Net for some reason, well at least C# anyway.

 

[Andrew Scott]

Scott one thing too, if you didn't pick up on it.

 

The project manager for this project would never look at .Net for this either, people here think I hate Microsoft. I only complain about the bugs, oh and pricing model for the OS:-)

 

But he is so Apple it is not funny.

 

See the thing is, which a lot of people here seem to not understand either. And it ways into the conversation largely due to the fact of resources as well.

 

When it came to pitching our product to one large company, and we have a prototype that is close to being a signed deal which will allow us to bring the hardware aspect into down the track. Our coldfusion developers are out numbered to nearly 10 for every CF programmer.

 

So what do you do, do you spend money to bring in more CF guys or go with what resources you have? And when it comes to coldfusion development, how many companies employee 30 coldfusion developers and look to increase that by another 15 by years end. There is not enough work and the market is totally wrong for CF on an Enterprise level.

 

Anyway I have said enough, we can't change this fact right now. But one day, as long as the smith project remains open source and they get the support they need this will be hopefully what will bring CF to this level. I have voiced what Adobe could do, but if they do it will be another story.

 

I recall the could old days at the ANZ, it was great here was a large company that Allaire was pitching and doing everything they can to get these larger companies to look at CF and winning as the bank loved the concept of Spectra, those days are so long gone now.

 

 

--

[Andrew Scott]

One last thing....

 

The price of the software, is important to our product. We do not plan on making money from our application, its the hardware that the software is the door to our product.

[Bruce Trevarthen (B2 Limited)]

I hear/share your pain Andrew. 

 

ZeroOne was a predominantly CF based shop for 9 years and for the last two years I have been battling/arguing with Adobe about the “fact” that it’s cheaper to buy Cold Fusion online with a credit card from the Adobe Store than from the New Zealand distributor (i.e. wholesale price).  Significantly cheaper in some cases/versions.

 

Lots of promised made by Adobe to fix it, and then the departure of Steve from Adobe Auzzy, resulted in dead-silence and no such “fix” of the problem.  So as a hosting company we were faced with buying licenses the retail way for clients who were expecting to get something other than retail when dealing with a “reseller” of the product as a bundle for a solution.  And on top of that to get a box copy would mean we pay more than retail.

 

So now ZeroOne has grown to 19 staff, 11 of which are developers and I’m sad (but glad) to say that 100% of the new staff (7 new staff) have been more .Net focused than CF focused.  I’m sad about this because CF rocks and I personally love coding in CF.  But I’m glad about this because my woes with Adobe won’t become a shadow over client projects anymore and I won’t have to convince clients to pay a license for something that don’t need now that we can develop the same solutions in .Net at $0 additional cost to the hosting side of things (since .Net is a native application server in IIS).

 

We will always support CF in our hosting facilities (including CF8), and we’ll continue to use the product (including CF8) but it’s no longer the core offering because it’s not financially viable to make it the core offering.

 

There ya go, shared my view, hope it wasn’t too boring :o)

 

Cheers

Bruce

 

-----------------------------------------

Bruce Trevarthen, CEO

ZeroOne (NZ) Limited

---

DDI: +64 4 4714444

Mobile: +64 21 567967

-------------------------------

[Andrew Scott]

Bruce,

 

One thing that did puzzle me though, buying online is cheaper in the USA. Which I posted a few days ago, I wondered if the support would be the same as Microsoft's attitude, well you are free to buy from whereever you like but you will not be supported in this country.

 

Anyone actually bought from the states online?

 

Dale, yes I know you might put your hand up. Let me say that this would be without a US mailing address... Sorry Dale... Just curious if the attitude is the same, or if Adobe would even ship from the states to Aus/NZ?

 

 

On 6/28/07, Bruce Trevarthen (B2 Limited) <br...@b2.co.nz> wrote:

I hear/share your pain Andrew. 

 

ZeroOne was a predominantly CF based shop for 9 years and for the last two years I have been battling/arguing with Adobe about the "fact" that it's cheaper to buy Cold Fusion online with a credit card from the Adobe Store than from the New Zealand distributor ( i.e. wholesale price).  Significantly cheaper in some cases/versions.

[Derision]

My vitriol wasn't directed at your argument rather at the rude and
arrogant way you address people on these lists. Especially people who
have offered advice or have contributed in a positive way. So the
bigger picture I see is you are a blight on any discussion forum you
are a member of and only ever contribute whining, arrogance and
rudeness. So the idea that you might dislike coldfusion/adobe only
fills me with delight at the idea you might piss off to some other
discussion group.

FIAWAD
(fall in a well and die).

[Andrew Scott]

ROTFLMAO...

 

Come on bring it on...

--

[Derision]

The teen movie section is that way -> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0204946/

[Geoff Bowers]

On Jun 28, 2:10 pm, "Andrew Scott" <andrew.sc...@aegeon.com.au> wrote:
> Using JSP, Struts, Spring, Hibernate, and a few other software that sits on
> top of an application server we have a product that is going (hopefully) be
> very profitable. Now, the thing is that some of the features that CF would
> have been used for, IM, gateways, html processing, PDF documents, reports to
> name a few.

And if your architecture allowed you could easily leverage a set of CF
servers to handle any of these tasks in a distributed fashion.

> We have sourced all open source solutions, and what licenses we have paid
> for comes to a total of $2k.
>
> What coldfusion would have been good for, is the middle tear application
> that delivered in a very short time frame all those solutions with minimal
> coding, plus the ability to prove the other features we have for client side
> more easily.

The basic problem is your architecture.. pure and simple. You are
trying to suggest that somehow CF licensing is limiting your options
but the reality is your solution is unique and CF licensing is not
designed for it. Only teams developing a packaged solution would
build 100 identical servers to run all the same services side by side
-- a more typical solution is to build a set of servers to run IM, a
set of servers to handle reporting and so on. Isolating each set of
services into an application of its own and connect them all up.

But hey I know nothing about your *actual* set up. What I do know is
that this has nothing to do with CF licensing -- unless you are
suggesting that *all* commercial software licensing is useless. Adobe
is profitable selling CF. They have consistently released a full
product release every 1.5 years for the last decade. Could their
licensing be improved? Yeah, maybe it can. But clearly there are
plenty of people who are happy to use CF as a platform as is.

> Now the regardless or not of what we are looking at, one has to seriously
> look at how many larger companies are looking for Enterprise solutions and
> then look at the cost of a CF license ontop of devleopment costs to deliver.
> The point is it shows that coldfusion is not a competitor (a serious one) in
> that market, I know that there are TLP licensing but I am not the one who
> controls the finances.

This is where you completely miss the point banging on about your
situation as though it fits anybody else. The reality is that for the
*vast* majority of CF installations worldwide the cost of development
and ongoing maintenance greatly exceed the cost of the initial server
license.

Talk to Adobe. Clearly you guys are not serious about CF in your
architecture as you haven't. Who knows, get an OEM deal for 100kAUD
for unlimited embedded version of CF8 and 100 servers is 1k per
server. 1000 servers is 100AU per server.

> Sure there is a lot of work for boutiques, web development for the average
> developer. But seriously how many people on this list as used Coldfusion in
> an Enterprise solution to this sort of scale.

The question is idiotic. Enterprise does not mean 100+ servers. We
have plenty of clients who need and run ColdFusion Enterprise on
single, dual or larger server clusters. We continue to find the
return on investment significant. Adobe themselves run one of the
largest web assets in the world on a cluster of two ColdFusion
servers.

> This is not about me and my gripes, this is about every Coldfusion developer
> and how we are loosing a market due to costings.

If anything we lose market and mindshare every-time we see constant
moaning in forums about the price of CF. To follow your absurd train
of thought Adobe should be dropping the price of CF Enterprise to
200AU.

-- geoff
http://www.daemon.com.au/

PS. apologies to all and sundry, I know I should not feed it...

[Andrew Scott]

Geoff,

 

NDA limits what I say, but till our product is released YOU can't comment on what we have done. What I can say, is the license cost is the issue in this case. Trust me I have had this discussion so many times here, and you can't tell me what I haven't already mentioned to this people behind this project.

End of story. Trust me on this please. The amount of expereince behind this project is extensive...

 

 

On 6/28/07, Geoff Bowers <mod...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Geoff Bowers]

On Jun 28, 3:51 pm, "Andrew Scott" <andrew.sc...@aegeon.com.au> wrote:
> NDA limits what I say, but till our product is released YOU can't comment on
> what we have done. What I can say, is the license cost is the issue in this
> case. Trust me I have had this discussion so many times here, and you can't
> tell me what I haven't already mentioned to this people behind this project.
>
> End of story. Trust me on this please. The amount of expereince behind this
> project is extensive...

I'm sorry I obviously didn't make myself clear.

a) i have *no* idea what you are doing
b) i have *no* interest in what you are doing
c) my only interest is clarifying your ramblings for those who might
be confused by them
d) cf licensing per se is not your issue.. *any* licensing above 200AU
per unit is your stated issue
e) you are the only one on this list with said issue

Please desist from hijacking every thread in this forum and turning it
into a personal tirade.

[Peter Tilbrook]

I have to agree in-so-far - yes I am using CF8 (RC). That was my only
statement. I must add I was in the top 25 for bug submissions for
pre-RC release for CF8 also.

--
Peter Tilbrook
ColdGen Internet Solutions
President, ACT and Region ColdFusion Users Group
PO Box 2247
Queanbeyan, NSW, 2620
AUSTRALIA

http://www.coldgen.com/
http://www.actcfug.com/

Tel: +61-2-6284-2727
Mob: +61-0432-897-437

Email: pe...@tilbrook.name
MSN Messenger Live: Desktop General

[Andrew Scott]

Geoff,

 

First of all, I never HiJacked this thread. I made a post as to what I voted for in the survey, and gave my reasons behind it. It was on topic.

 

If you had bothered to follow the thread you will understand, so becuase it has changed from a survey to a blood bath it is saying that you are all happy with using the standard version of Coldfusion and means that if the oppurtunity to compete on an Enterprise level you can't.

 

A) I do not care if you know what I am doing

B) If you have no interest then don't reply.

C) My ramblings are based on what I tried to fight for here, and as you pointed out from another thread open source solutions won. And why did they win, it wasn't to do with the fact that CF is not capable of delivering what we need. It can't do it at the cost we need it to deliver it at. But you are so blind by that fact you are pissing me off.

D) See point C, the cost of the license was the issue and always will be the issue. And is why I also made the comment that the smith project was not at a level for us to adopt. Otherwise we would have pulled that in, but to not only implement the software we need and to modify an engine to do it was not cost effective for us.

E) Thats because everyone mostly develops on the standard version, Geoff go off and develop an Enterprise solution and say to your client sorry but we need to add $9.5k for the license and see their faces drop.

 

Look I do not care, I made my points. I made a comment on what I think coldfusion should have adopted, I mean the structure for Flex changed so why do you think that Adobe might not look at the same option for CF at all. I mean developers have been comlaining about the cost of CF for years, that is why Railo, Blue Dragon and the Smith Project exist.

 

Now I will say it one last time, when we started this project 10+ months ago I pitched for CF as the technology to tie it all together, I was point blank told we will not loook at coldfusion for this business model due to the cost of the license and much clearer do I have to make it.

 

I have kept this as civial as possible, and the point that annoys me the most is that I am die hard CF developer and will do anything to remain so. However, there is going to come a time that one has to move on to a new technology. Which is why my post was in the first place, I stated why I am being asked to become a java developer, and why CF can not comepete on an Enterprise level.

 

Geoff it doesn't take a 2 year old to read the posts over the past 2-3 years about jobs, where are they. And it is as obvious as most of know, there are no new developers comming up to take on the plate to fill the jobs that are available for smaller websites, so why would a larger corporation take a punt on using CF spend $9.5k deliver solution software wise that we plan not to make money on and find that in 2-3 years time we can't get the resources for maintaining the job.

 

I am one for mentoring new blood, but if large companies are moviong away from CF because it is not cost effective to use then what is that saying to you. Like I said I can't go into details due to NDA, but I have tried to explain that the infastructure has to be cost effective for our product. CF doesn't come into contention for all the reasons I have stated that I can state, apart from hosting companies I would seriously like to know how many Enterprise applications of CF are running on more than 10 servers? How many blue chip companies are looking at an Enterprise solution and are considering CF, then Geoff I will discuss this with you further.

 

Until then like I said, I have been told by the powers (Ex CFoldfusion developers) that CF is not cost effective for them to consider, nor is Blue Dragon and nor is Railo and unfortunetly at the present the only one that fits is the Smith Project but we don't have the resources to help them out with the engine.

 

If you think Coldfusion developers are hard to get, try getting good J2EE java developers. Then come back to me with a discussion and I will be more than happy too.

 

I will not discuss this any further, I made my point. I explained why I am moving waway from Coldfusion as a career, and the reasons why so is our company. Coldfusion is no longer a profitable business for us, and it boils down to the cost of the product.... yes Geoff you heard me right, it is the cost of the product.

 

 

On 6/28/07, Geoff Bowers <mod...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.

[Andrew Scott]

Peter,

 

I really felt like being an arse to you again, but this time do you mind leaving a little bit of what you are replying too?

 

It just might stop me hitting you on the head with the request scope is evil again :-)

--

Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.

[Peter Tilbrook]

> E) Thats because everyone mostly develops on the standard version, Geoff go
> off and develop an Enterprise solution and say to your client sorry but we
> need to add $9.5k for the license and see their faces drop.

Your negotiation skills must be of a very low order. To pay 9.5K would
be ridiculous. You really need to contact a distributor like
RocketBoots to get a fairer deal. Yeas Adobe software is too expensive
compared to US prices but do not be afraid to question this with an
authorised reseller.

[Andrew Scott]

Peter,

 

Nothing to do with Negotiation skills, whats the point of going down that road if it is not going to happen :-(  And besides, I know for a fact there is no way, and I mean no way that Adobe will sell us any copy of CF Enterprise for $250.00 and thats the price each edition would need to be for us to consider it. But as the project is now 10+ months on, its pointless even looking at pricing anyway.

 

On 6/28/07, Peter Tilbrook <peter.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Scott Barnes]

Umm.. this thread is just freakin funny..

 

Here's how I'm seeing it so far. Dale wanted to unpick something he pondered about in terms of Coldfusion and the future. So he did a positive step to see what the public would say to some questions, it came back great results and thumbs up alround.

 

Andrew decided, well its been a while since he had a pick at a large software company, so figured this would be a great soapbox. He went down a ratwhole only to have the very public Dale was hoping would answer some questions, begin to turn on him further.

 

Fight occurs, Derision lays it out bluntly - "stop the rambling" but in a more aggressive manner, in which case Andrew's not quite sure how to react to. Geoff's annoyed - yet again - with Andrew - which I have to say Andrew, Geoff's pretty easy going guy and for you to raise the Bowers from his lurking slumber could mean that you should maybe chill for a while (only a piece of advice).

 

Then, to top it it all off.. upcomes Peter Tilbrook with some random "I have a lollipop, boy did i win that fishing contest last week at the ... did you know i got the highest bug scores in the beta about the software which i'm not supposed to tell you about but feel the need to anyway"...

 

All i need now is Barry to chime in with some more brand-war bait, maybe I could throw in a .NET remark or two to end with maybe a fight between Adobe or Microsoft which M@ then can finish off with some UK story he's been bursting to tell (actually M@'s travels in the UK are funny i must admit).

 

I love this list.. its better then TV and keeps me entertained whilst I travel...

 

Continue on..

 

On 6/28/07, Andrew Scott <andrew...@aegeon.com.au> wrote:

[Peter Tilbrook]

Scotty, Scotty, Scotty...

I never stated I was THE premier bugfinder - Ray Camden must surely
hold that title. And our efforts made the RC a more stable platform -
but Adobe still need all of us to push it to find any issues before it
goes gold.

At least I bother to ask Adobe about CF8 and got some great answers:

http://www.actcfug.com/index.cfm?actcfug=ArticleView&ArticleID=217

(thanks again for your valuable time Tim).

[Peter Tilbrook]

PS - thanks for full name quote. Should I be pleased? Humble?

[Mark Mandel]

*Nominates Scott for the funniest post to CFAUSSIE EVA*

It's funny because its true ;)

Mark

--
E: mark....@gmail.com
W: www.compoundtheory.com

[Robin Hilliard]

On 27/06/2007, at 12:13 PM, Andrew Scott wrote:

Robin,

 

Yes I am talking about tag / function development.

Hi Andrew,

Seem to have started something here.  I was onsite all day in Melbourne yesterday and have a bit to catch up on, will try to pitch in with a response soon.

                                                        

Robin Hilliard

CEO - RocketBoots Pty Limited

Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training

http://www.rocketboots.com.au

m    +61 418 414 341

e    ro...@rocketboots.com.au

[Haikal Saadh]

The thread of a lifetime, and it just has to be while Barry's on vacation.

Scott Barnes wrote:
> *snip*

> All i need now is Barry to chime in with some more brand-war bait,
> maybe I could throw in a .NET remark or two to end with maybe a fight
> between Adobe or Microsoft which M@ then can finish off with some UK

> story he's been bursting to tell (actually M@'s <mailto:M@%27s>

> travels in the UK are funny i must admit).

*snip*

[Robin Hilliard]

On 28/06/2007, at 9:58 AM, Geoff Bowers wrote:
> Who to talk to? Well at Adobe you could contact the local Partner
> manager and enquire about OEM licensing options.

That's Tim Hussey in the Sydney Office.

[Ryan Sabir]

> Fight occurs, Derision lays it out bluntly - "stop the rambling" but

Hands up who thinks 'Derision' is a regular poster who registered a gmail account to anonymously vent their fury :)

I mean to never have posted before and have such a strong opinion is a bit sus to me...

I think this is a symptom of a mature product.. We all pretty much know CF inside and out and have nothing left to talk about. I'm just here for the laughs.

Bye!

---------------------------------------------------

Ryan Sabir
Technical Director

p: (02) 9274 8030
f: (02) 9274 8099
m: 0411 512 454
w: www.newgency.com Newgency Pty Ltd
Web | Multimedia | eMarketing

115 Cooper St
Surry Hills NSW 2010
Sydney, Australia

[Joel]

But been thinking.. how do web hosting companies offer "cheap" hosting for
CFMX Ent if they are paying 9k for the lic ?

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Robin Hilliard
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2007 10:25 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Robin Hilliard]

On 29/06/2007, at 10:45 AM, Joel wrote:
>
>
> But been thinking.. how do web hosting companies offer "cheap"
> hosting for
> CFMX Ent if they are paying 9k for the lic ?

Yes. Maybe these "way too expensive" local hosting companies
actually pay for their licenses...

[AJ Mercer]

How about this for some conspiracy theory:

Derision is Andrew Scott

So when people reply to Derision say 'right on brother' or 'yeah, that guy is a total #$%^&'
Andrew would have the last laugh

Though I think people are making their opinions of him publicly known


Now I am off to read his posts backwards looking for hidden messages...

--
If you are not living on the edge,
You are taking up too much space.

[Steve Onnis]

I run a hosting business and I work on the volume principal (I hope I spelt
it the right way). Get enough clients to cover the cost and hopefully make
some op top on it. You need to look at recouping the cost long term because
you will never get it back over night (and no im not gonna say it...)

All cones down to a business decision, and if your prepared for the initial
outlay.

Now.....does any one know if I can unsubscribe from specific discussions?

[Andrew Scott]

Steve,

I will chime in here, and Mike Kear and anyone else that is running a
hosting business.

First let me say this, it is easier for you guys to plan the said cost of CF
into your decision. But I am not going to discuss that.

One thing that has puzzled me a little, and this comes from a discussion I
had with a hosting company for one of our clients. Which I am so not happy
with.

When you planned your infrastructure, did you go with Virtual Servers and if
so how many instances did you guys end up setting up? The reason I ask is
that this hosting company, is running one server and one instance of CF and
every now and then some stupid website brings the entire CF server to a
halt. When I asked about setting up another instance, and maybe moving the
more robust apps over for more stability I was laughed at.

I guess what I am asking, is how do you decide how many websites you run of
one CF instance?

Andrew Scott

Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Steve Onnis
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2007 10:59 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

I run a hosting business and I work on the volume principal (I hope I spelt
it the right way). Get enough clients to cover the cost and hopefully make
some op top on it. You need to look at recouping the cost long term because
you will never get it back over night (and no im not gonna say it...)

All cones down to a business decision, and if your prepared for the initial
outlay.

Now.....does any one know if I can unsubscribe from specific discussions?

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/875 - Release Date: 27/06/2007
9:08 PM

[Dale Fraser]

If you look at the IP addresses, you can work out who it is.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2007 10:58 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

How about this for some conspiracy theory:

[Steve Onnis]

Andrew

I personally don't run virtual servers. I haven't gotten to a stage where I
have needed that sort of thing, and even if I did I would be more likely to
purchase more servers then use virtual servers. I know it's a cost factor
and it needs to be planned as part of your growth. Although what you
mentioned does happen from time to time, I am on the servers all day every
day pretty much and I see when something goes funny, and if I don't see it,
my clients are quick to jump. If you do have mission critical application
that require to be up 100% of the time then you would be better of getting
your own server so you don't have to worry about those sorts of issues. To
be setting up a CF instance per hosting client on a single serer would be an
administrative nightmare.

On that though, keep in mind that its not always a CF server issue. People
running dodgy SQL queries can bring the sql server to a halt. Heavy file
system access can spike the CPU and slow things down. Both of which can be
totally non-cf related.

I would, however move you to a different server if you went happy with the
one you were on. That just comes down to customer service. Also, if the cf
server was not set up to be running jrun so you could have multiple
instances, then you would either have to install it again using the jrun
method and have both running in tandem, or uninstall the current install and
go again, just so you could have your own instance. I would have said no
also, but not laughed at you :)

We have just had an infrastructure upgrade with some new equipment and
stuff. Currently I have a server doing nothing because its waiting for CF8
to be released. As for cost, I am surprised how much the prices of upgrades
has come down. From memory, upgrades are like half the price they used to
be. I remember having to pay close to 8k for an initial CFENT license, and
still have to pay 6k for the upgrade. Not the case now.

Steve

[Dale Fraser]

Andrew,

 

You have really hijacked this thread, can you create new topics rather than keep replying to the survey one.

 

97 Messages

 

32 Andrew Scott 33%

21 Dale Fraser 22%

 

Then the next person is only 10 responses

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2007 10:58 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

How about this for some conspiracy theory: