recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

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Barry Beattie

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:27:56 AM4/7/08
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- came across another recruter today (deliberatly not saying who) who
straight-up said that CF was on the way out.

and yet they (recruters) are looking for CF'ers and can't easily fill
the positions they've got on their books, converting PHP'ers to fill
positions, and in one case, getting apps made (for their recruting
business) in CFML.

sigh...

M@ Bourke

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Apr 7, 2008, 9:03:41 AM4/7/08
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and your response to this person was??

Barry Beattie

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Apr 7, 2008, 9:15:16 AM4/7/08
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to be honest Matt, playing it very gently, not wanting to bite the
hand that may feed me...


but then again, what _could_ I say that the obvious couldn't say better?

M@ Bourke

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Apr 7, 2008, 9:17:32 AM4/7/08
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So... how about those rainbow suspenders, Pretty cool way to keep your pants up, eh?

Andrew Scott

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Apr 7, 2008, 9:58:58 AM4/7/08
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yeah very good at keeping them that way too.

--

Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613 8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273

KC Kuok

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Apr 7, 2008, 7:25:05 PM4/7/08
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Hi Barry,

I think the general feeling is that CF in Australia is on the way out.
But for us that keep up to that on the global front know that it will
be here to stay. Unfortunately for us it seems CF is not being used as
extensively as it should Down Under. The shortage is due to a few
factors, most important of which is 1) there are not enough good CF-
ers to go around, lets be honest you can get away with spaghetti code
in CF, which is a double sided blade. 2) There are not enough
companies willing to take on new coders without any prior CF
experience and 'train' them... 3) Which leads back to business
decisions being made that it is easier (and cheaper salary-wise/
contract-wise) to carry out a project in PHP, as you have a big pool
of novice-intermediate PHP coders compared to CF coders.

I think for Australia at least, if Adobe 1) Does not enforce lower
pricing for CF hosting by their hosting partners 2) push CF to Unis 3)
review pricing strategies to gain critical mass, In the long run no
matter how great the forthcoming versions of CF is going to be, only
big MNCs will use it, and unfortunately their coding teams are usually
not based in Australia, hence CF will probably keep becoming sidelined
in Australia while others continue to grow.

Just my 2 cents :)

Joel Cass

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Apr 7, 2008, 7:38:57 PM4/7/08
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I agree with most of that but on the topic of recruiters - they are just
sales people and I wouldn't take them seriously. They have a position to
sell to the client, not just you.

Say they were selling fridges. You can get the super duper models with
the ice machines and built in tv's and then you have your everyday
run-of-the-mill fridges. You come in wanting a super duper fridge but
all they have is run-of-the-mill fridges - they still want their
commission so they will try and sell you an everyday fridge.

Now replace everyday fridge with PHP and super duper fridge with
ColdFusion, and that explains why they are taking the "CF is on it's way
out" pitch.

But let's not go into this *monthly* debate again. Nobody knows if it's
on the way out. As long as people keep coding and doing good work (e.g.
maintainable projects) than it will be here to stay, whether Adobe
shelve the technology or not.

My two cents

Joel Cass

Detect

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Apr 7, 2008, 7:53:48 PM4/7/08
to cfaussie
Isn't CF in a constant state of being "on the way out"?

Michael Dinowitz

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Apr 7, 2008, 7:55:33 PM4/7/08
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For almost 13 years

Andrew Scott

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:02:41 PM4/7/08
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Joel,

To some degree you are right about them being sales people, but at the end
of the day it's the product that they are selling and that comes from the
client and what requirements they are looking for.

We struggled to get decent J2EE developers, and even though there is an
abundance of Java developers out there. We told our recruiters specifically
what we wanted.


Andrew Scott


Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au

Phone: +613  9015 8628
Mobile: 0404 998 273

Detect

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:08:24 PM4/7/08
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C'mon guys,

If CF was popular there would be no excuse to give to my employer to
send me to MAX or CFUnited.

Let's keep the myth going.

Andrew Scott

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:11:05 PM4/7/08
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Agreed,

I had this debate with Sean Corfield awhile ago when I got back into
developing Coldfusion, after a 2 year break. And the first thing that I had
noticed along the way was that even though as pointed out, Coldfusion can be
gotten up and running very quickly.

There is not enough who actually are software engineers, meaning that it
places a bigger hole in the market.

It is a catch 22 for most of the people who do pick up Coldfusion and find
how easy it is, and find that they are better off along the php, or .Net
route.

I sometimes sit back and watch a project go through its DLC here, under java
and find that even though it gets delivered on time and budget. The amount
of work sometimes done for the project, and think how quickly it could have
been done in Coldfusion.

But that is the reality, I doubt we will ever look for a Coldfusion
developer to come on board. Because of the fact we are Java primarily, with
a few clients still being maintained in CF. Only because we have gone
enterprise, and the tools we use can't be fitted into Coldfusion in its
current shape.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  9015 8628
Mobile: 0404 998 273


-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of KC Kuok
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 9:25 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

Andrew Scott

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:13:56 PM4/7/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
It isn't a myth, it has been this way for almost 12 years that I have been
developing Coldfusion for.

But the reality is that it will never go away, it has its place and that is
what keeps most of us happy.

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  9015 8628
Mobile: 0404 998 273


-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Detect
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 10:08 AM
To: cfaussie
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

barry.b

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:39:41 PM4/7/08
to cfaussie
> For almost 13 years

Here! here! Michael. exactly the case. Tales of the demise seem
grossly exagerated...

I've got a few different skills under my belt, but I have absolutely
no embarrisment that CF is featured amongst them**

in fact, thanks to things like AIR and Flex, with support of the LCDS
products, Adobe are finally starting to get a solid technology
"stack" (top to bottom) happening. And CF riding on the coat-tails.

(I overheard a PHP'er complaining that all the Flex examples were only
written for CF - they obviously didn't look hard enough but also
didn't like the shoe being on the other foot...)

I can appreciate people moving larger apps to Java and whatnot but
geez I feel much safer with CF skills than, say, Progress or Delphi
or ...

maybe I should have taken M@'s suggestion and pointed out the irony of
the situation...?


"I think the general feeling is that CF in Australia is on the way
out.
But for us that keep up to that on the global front know that it will
be here to stay."

I'm suggesting it's only a "feeling", not being realised by the actual
situation.

but I do (first hand) see some shifts in the teaching of I.T generally
and Digital Media specifically. Enrollments in Australia are falling
and yet they're expanding (bigtime) in Europe (and the US if FullSail
is any guide).

meh, I'm not worried. the world is full of Chicken Little's...

b


** obviously not needing a spell checker isn't one of them...




On Apr 8, 9:55 am, "Michael Dinowitz" <mdino...@houseoffusion.com>
wrote:
> For almost 13 years
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Detect <det...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Isn't CF in a constant state of being "on the way out"?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

AJ Mercer

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Apr 7, 2008, 8:51:59 PM4/7/08
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Have a listen to the podcast on
    http://coldfusionweekly.com/

    -> Vince Bonfanti - Open Source BlueDragon
    -> coming soon Gert Franz from Railo Technologies

They have a few things to say about promoting CFML to the web community at large.
--

AJ Mercer
Web Log: http://webonix.net

Dale Fraser

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Apr 7, 2008, 11:19:34 PM4/7/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com

I recently advertised a junior tester role.

 

129 applications, this is junior people with no real experience perhaps 1 year a uni degree.

 

I didn't see ColdFusion listed as skill on a single one.

 

Of all the people we have interviewed, we asked them about ColdFusion and they all said they have heard of it but never used it.

 

One guy even said, hasn't that been replaced by .NET

 

ColdFusion isn't going anywhere soon, but it has some serious issues with visibility and promotion. And after all these years, I have come to the conclusion that Adobe will never address these issues in a significant enough way to make a difference.

 

Will be interesting to see if the Open Source BlueDragon makes a difference.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

http://learncf.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 10:52 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

Have a listen to the podcast on

Patrick McGLYNN

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Apr 8, 2008, 2:29:45 AM4/8/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Andrew,

I not sure if anyone here has tried it yet but where you say:

 "But that is the reality, I doubt we will ever look for a Coldfusion
developer to come on board. Because of the fact we are Java primarily, with
a few clients still being maintained in CF. Only because we have gone
enterprise, and the tools we use can't be fitted into Coldfusion in its
current shape."

I say what about BPEL (Business Process Execution Language)?

It is designed just for this purpose, that is plugging in external services, sometimes legacy.


One of the points at the bottom of the page "Portability - The ability to take design-time artifacts created in one vendor's environment and use them in another vendor's environment."

I think that coldfusion is getting ready for a take of with agile development in mind, although people do need to be trained with the knowledge of the tool at Universities.
But keeping in mind coldfusion is just an abstraction of Java which is taught.

Cheers Patrick McGLYNN

Andrew Scott

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Apr 8, 2008, 3:07:49 AM4/8/08
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Patrick,

 

It still will not happen.....

 

 

Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  9015 8628
Mobile: 0404 998 273

 

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick McGLYNN
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 4:30 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

Andrew,

MrBuzzy

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Apr 8, 2008, 4:14:50 AM4/8/08
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Maybe it's the recruiters that are 'on the way out' of the CF world ;)
 
I mean, with such a good (but small) community here and OS maybe recruiters don't add as much value as they do for the Java or .Net market. Plus, does a recruiter really know how to recognise a good CF developer? I'm not sure.

Scott Barnes

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Apr 8, 2008, 5:06:01 AM4/8/08
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I'll be upfront and honest and you can take this however you want to.. but.. I've in the past been seeing a healthy amount of requests on folks wanting:
 
- How do I migrate from CF to ASP.NET
- How do I retrain CF folks to ASP.NET
- Barnesy, hook me up with some .NET jobs..
 
(thus my butt kicking a while back for daring to ask whom wanted help with this?)
 
These are from customers / friends in the CF biz, does this mean CF Is doomed? no (doubtful).. but its what I'm seeing...I think the skill shortage in Australia is what's driving this perception, my advice is to get back out there, hit the pavements and start stimulating the CF Community again. I state this as I think a large bulk of folks have moved onto Flex development or migrated to another language (Java, .NET, Ruby and PHP are big in Australia).
 
 
-
Scott.

M@ Bourke

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Apr 8, 2008, 6:03:14 AM4/8/08
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Just in case anyone is new to the list, Scott is a .net product evangelist at Microsoft.

of cos he is most likely unbiased and posted his last comment via an iPhone :P

CyberAngel

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Apr 8, 2008, 6:56:05 AM4/8/08
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Actually he is now a product manager for Silverlight…..

 

No more evangelism for Scott J

 

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 8:03 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

Just in case anyone is new to the list, Scott is a .net product evangelist at Microsoft.

M@ Bourke

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Apr 8, 2008, 7:04:46 AM4/8/08
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Sorry yeah forgot, he now owns the whole .Net platform :)
and will soon become head of the new small department they'll have within the Microsoft basement, new little department will be called Yahoo!!, just to be cool MS will give Yahoo! 2 "!'s" so its Yahoo!!

CyberAngel

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Apr 8, 2008, 7:06:36 AM4/8/08
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*LOL*

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 9:05 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

Sorry yeah forgot, he now owns the whole .Net platform :)

Barry Beattie

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Apr 8, 2008, 9:10:09 AM4/8/08
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it's probably worth remembering that Barnes has cut CF code a lot
longer than he's been wearing an MS-logo'd jacket.


so when he says

"...I think the skill shortage in Australia is what's driving this
perception, my advice is to get back out there, hit the pavements and
start stimulating the CF Community again."

there's a fair bit of thought behind it.

you can't beat "vibe" for creating groundswells and getting a scene
happening. Whether it's "Kevin07" (or "It's Time" back in 1972) or the
Pepsi taste challenge or the promo for the Blair Witch Project, if you
haven't a vibe you just don't exist these days.

that thread I threw up this afternoon about "cfqueryparam 101"? - it
was an Ad (a very subtle one) advertising one of the many things that
the local user group can do to help people become better at their
craft, keep their skills up, have longeviy in the industry, etc.

Advertising the local CFUG for tonight (not expecting one extra person
to show, but at least it gets the name out there). Also pointing out
that there's CFUG's all around the region. From Andrew Mercer in Perth
to David Harris in NZ and people like Steve Onnis, Mark Mandel, Chris
Velevitch, Kai Koenig, Darren Tracey - Dale, you're in there helping
too.

you can stumble across all sorts of interesting things at CFUG's -
tonight for example it was about CF, LCDS and data management,
presented by a guy in the U.S who was up at 5:00am to present.
http://quetwo.wordpress.com/2008/04/07/speaking-at-the-queensland-cfug-tomorrow/

not your cup of tea? well, what is? and what are you going to do about it?

People who don't contribute to the CF community shouldn't be too quick
to bitch and moan about the lack of CF profile.

two ways to help:

- actively drive the agenda of your local CFUG: don't just be a
passenger, but help set the direction to what you think would make it
better - and then help make it happen.

- contribute to open-source apps/code. Ray Camden's blogCFC is almost
ubiquitous but it's still not the "foot in the door" that PHPNuke
created for PHP (or many of the other PHP-based apps). FarCry's there
waiting to be used, etc.

Dale Fraser

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Apr 8, 2008, 9:28:50 AM4/8/08
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I use a site still called

www.experts-exchange.com

It is a big forum with different areas you can ask questions and help others
and you earn points.

Earn enough points you get a ranking and they send you a T-Shirt.

Now I'm top 10 all time in all CF categories, that is a result of how long I
have been on it and I occasionally answer questions, but I'm not hard core.

What is interesting, is that the people who are hard core in the CF areas
people with 500k or 1m points have vanished over the past couple of years.
Now they haven't stopped using the site, they have just gone into different
areas, you can click them to see where they are posting / answering
questions now.

So I don't work for Microsoft, and this is just me relaying the stats of
that site, but I can tell you that a lot of them have gone to .NET

For example (not sure if you can see this without a login)
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Software/Server_Software/Web_Servers/ColdFus
ion/

The ColdFusion area, all time ranking mrichmon (1,346,158 points)

Is now mainly posting in C# and ASP.NET areas. This trend is repeated for a
lot of ex major ColdFusion people on this site. So there is defiantly merit
in what Scott has said, I have seen it here and other places.

With that said, while I think there is a trend of CF people moving to .NET.
It's not something I would consider unless I thought that Adobe were going
to drop ColdFusion, as .NET compared to ColdFusion is just hard work. Even
Scott might agree with that.

ColdFusion is a good product with a bad rep and historically bad marketing.

Regards
Dale Fraser

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Barry Beattie
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 11:10 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

Michael Dinowitz

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Apr 8, 2008, 9:51:07 AM4/8/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
<totally self serving suggestion>
You know, having a full set of Fusion Authority Quarterly Update on your shelf for people to see might have a positive effect. :)
</totally self serving suggestion>

We've been thinking about trying to set up a fulfillment center in Australia to ship the books out to people locally rather than send them from the US. Alternatively, we could give the CFUGs a discount for a mass order for their members. One thing we've always said is that books on a shelf and/or in a store can do more for a language than many arguments.

Gary Barber

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Apr 9, 2008, 12:53:19 AM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
<delurk>

Problem with all these suggestions are they are preaching to the
choir. Coldfusion needs to be seen to be a viable product OUTSIDE of
the Coldfusion community.

</delurk>

--
Gary Barber
Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect

Web: radharc.com.au
blog: manwithnoblog.com

barry.b

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Apr 9, 2008, 2:40:29 AM4/9/08
to cfaussie

OK Gary - I'll bite: how?

everyone else shoosh (at least for a sec - please?) - I want to hear a
fresh perspective, considering a bunch of us has thrashed this point
many times...
> > than many arguments.- Hide quoted text -

Gary Barber

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Apr 9, 2008, 5:25:06 AM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
<summary of blog post>

Would I recommend Coldfusion to someone new in the industry, well
frankly no. Realistically it has no future (puts on flame proof suit).
So what can you do about it.

DON"T be complacent.

Consider this besides WebDU and your CFUG. How many presentations have
people done on Cold fusion. How many kill sites where highlighted as
Coldfusion sites.

I've not heard of any, so if I'm wrong tell me. But people you need to
get outside of the user groups back into the rest of the web industry.
If you really love this product and it's more than a day job get out
there promote it to others. The rest of the web community hears about
RoR, PHP and .Net all the time.. Coldfusion... - "oh thats that dead
language".

It's a PR problem.

Okay you say "but I have all the work I need, why should I bother at
all". Well you can sit around with all your work, but in a few years
the work level will start to drop and at that stage it will be terminal,
Coldfusion will be dead. The reason you have lots of work, simple
others have left, and you are picking up their slack.

Adobe are not going to help you. Australia is a small market, if the
Coldfusion numbers dropped in Australia but remained the same in the
US. I don't think Adobe HQ would really be that concerned. Lets be
very realistic here. Adobe doesn't make a lot of money out of Coldfusion
in Australia, it makes more out of CS3 etc.

Adobe guys, lets be real here, you don't have the budget. So if Adobe
isn't going to help, what can you do.

Encourage the installation of the CF opensource alternatives. Okay they
are not 100% cf8, but it is a good stable platform for cfml development
that is very low in cost. Stop being purists. CF has to Open source in
Australia to help it survive.

Also is you get industry to push the CF opensource alternatives, and
educational institutions will follow suit and train graduates in CF.
Adobe (US) may even wake up at some point.

So what can you do now. We email, phone, IM a web professional group
that is not your CFUG and go organise to do a presentation of your
latest CF project.

I would love to see this happen, but a little part of me doesn't think
you guys can do it. Prove me wrong.

--
Gary Barber
Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect

Web: radharc.com.au
blog: manwithnoblog.com

CyberAngel

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Apr 9, 2008, 7:46:58 AM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Hmmmm...

I think that Geoff, Mark and a few others are always doing presentations on
Coldfusion related products.

As for recommending I would think it will depend on the situation and the
project.

As for Killer sites, yeah well I agree...

But I will say what Scott Barnes said, even though it is easier said than
done. But he is right.

Regards
Andrew Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Gary Barber
Sent: Wednesday, 9 April 2008 7:25 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD
from them too?

Gary Barber

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Apr 9, 2008, 9:39:30 AM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Okay I'm not privy to where Geoff and Mark are doing these
presentations. Is it to Coldfusion people. If so it's a waste of time.

I've not hear of them and I do keep my ear to the ground so to speak in
relation to Coldfusion news outside of the Cf community.

Besides on or two vocal advocates I have heard nothing!

Do nothing and it won't effect me. But it will effect you guys. Sorry
to be all serious here.

--
Gary Barber
Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect

Web: radharc.com.au
blog: manwithnoblog.com

Barry Beattie

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Apr 9, 2008, 10:01:18 AM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
well, Geoff Bowers is doing smart evangelising (IMHO) with FarCry.

the leverage there is to get people interested in the FarCry
application framework - and the CMS as a killer app to get the
framework in the door.

just because it uses CF is not really the focus - building powerful
applications is.

this is pretty much the same model that saw a large spreading of PHP -
it wan't the "personal home page" concept - it was the "runtime" that
made PHPNuke or Wordpress run on people's machines.

thing edge of the wedge stuff

I'm seeing exactly the same thing with Sharepoint and MOSS (Microsoft
Office SharePoint Server) - sure they're products, but if you want to
add/modify it, you'll be doing so in .NET.

we need more killer apps.

Robin Hilliard

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Apr 9, 2008, 4:30:16 PM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Funny... I'm interviewing a promising CF candidate this afternoon in Sydney and flying to Melbourne tomorrow to interview two more.  I'm working with experienced recruiters and they didn't seem to have too much trouble finding at least a few CF developers at short notice.

It's probably a case of sour grapes from the recruiters - they must have dreams where you say "What! Replaced by .NET?  Oh, well then let's hire every .NET developer you have at outrageous rates, and I'll give you a huge tip for your deep, albeit untutored sagely insight into the future of web technologies".

Actually I've found a leaked script from a recruiting agency that shall remain nameless, and I quote from pages 159-162:

IF THE CLIENT SAYS:
C:
...
C++:
...
COBOL:
...
ColdFusion:
OH! Wasn't that replaced by (d20):
1) .NET
2) Java
3) .NET Again
4) JSP
5) ASP
6) PHP
7) .NYET (Russian Developer Edition)
8) WebObjects
9) Ruby on Rails
10) Vista
11) Perl CGI scripts
12) Amazon Mechanical Turk and Russian HTML designers
13) Office 2008
14) Silverlight, Barnes Memorial Edition
15) Dreamweaver
16) .NET XXL Crinkle Free
17) MS-Linux
18) Frogger
19) The Windows Start Menu
20) .NET and the Kangaroo

CORBA:
...
Delphi:
...

Cheers,
Robin


     
  ROBIN HILLIARD
Chief Executive Officer
ro...@rocketboots.com.au

RocketBoots Pty Ltd
Level 11
189 Kent Street
Sydney NSW 2001
Australia
Phone +61 2 9323 2507
Facsimile +61 2 9323 2501
Mobile +61 418 414 341
www.rocketboots.com.au
 
   

Mark Mandel

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Apr 9, 2008, 6:56:11 PM4/9/08
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Garry -

I'd love to go out to other UG's or such and do some sort of talk
(albeit I don't know how interested they would be in Transfer, as that
is my main talking point).

Did you have any in mind?

Mark

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Gary Barber <gary.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

--
E: mark....@gmail.com
W: www.compoundtheory.com

Gary Barber

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Apr 9, 2008, 10:57:29 PM4/9/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Mark

If you haven't already I would be looking at the barcamps, web standards
groups etc or any events that bring the groups together.

CF needs more people like you and Geoff in Australia

Hat tip to Geoff for putting Farcry out there, which still needs to be
promoted.

--
Gary Barber
Freelance User Interaction Designer/ Information Architect

Web: radharc.com.au
blog: manwithnoblog.com

barry.b

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Apr 9, 2008, 11:30:53 PM4/9/08
to cfaussie
just getting back to Robin Hilliard's point about recruiters having no
problem finding quality candidates for him...

... that may be specific to certain areas (Sydney, Melbourne) or
sections of the market (enterprise, RIA's). Besides, Sydney and
Melbourne are magnets from other areas of the country anyway. I
personally know of 3 CF good people who have moved to Sydney from
Brisbane.

According to a recruiter I spoke to this morning, one client on his
books who is just about to throw the towel in on CF and get his apps
re-written in another language - he can't find the CF developers to
maintain and extend it. Darren Tracey (QLD CFUG manager) sounded alarm
bells about this over a year ago (where the "new blood" was coming
from) - but it's typical free-market forces and there's not a lot that
can be done about it, even from the educational/student (supply) side.


do CF a favour - poach a PHP coder today...

AJ Mercer

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Apr 10, 2008, 12:08:59 AM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
So do you think if you showed a PHP developer a free CFML engine they would jump ship?

Or are they a part of them mob questioning CF's longevity??


Or should we be canvasing the new web developers - those that not know any different / better?


Should UGs run a meeting 'An introduction to CF for PHP developers'

Should we poach from other disciplines too?
 - RoR => they are more fanatical the CF developers ;-)
 - ASP
 - .Net => are they a lot cause?
 - JSP


And where do CFML Engine providers fit into all of this?
Should Railo and New Atlanta be taking on this challenge??

I think Adobe are happy looking after the enterprise end of the market, in which people don't respect 'free' application server products
They can afford to pay top dollar for skilled people or pay to train them up.


I was hoping Flex and AIR would mention CF a bit more.
But I guess Adobe don't want to give the impression that it is the only option and scare of the PHP/.Net market.



more questions than answers, sorry :-(

Joel Chia

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Apr 10, 2008, 12:33:33 AM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Isn't that how cults recruit members? by preying on the poor vulnerable blank slates who don't know any better :D


From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 2:09 PM

To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 <---Snip---> 
 
 Or should we be canvasing the new web developers - those that not know any different / better?
 <---Snip--->

 

 

 

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Kay Smoljak

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Apr 10, 2008, 12:40:38 AM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08 PM, AJ Mercer <ajme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So do you think if you showed a PHP developer a free CFML engine they would
> jump ship? Or are they a part of them mob questioning CF's longevity??
> Or should we be canvasing the new web developers - those that not know any
> different / better? Should UGs run a meeting 'An introduction to CF for PHP developers'
> Should we poach from other disciplines too?

You don't need to convert anyone. And if you try you will more than
likely fail. This is not a freaking religion. Someone telling me to
convert to a different development platform is no different from the
Mormons knocking on your door.

What CF developers should do - and those of you from WA will know that
I harp on about this a lot, to almost no effect - is participate in
their local industry communities. People who think CF is dead often
think so because CF developers are nowhere to be seen. They only go to
CF events and aren't interested in anything else. They don't
participate in BarCamps and WebJams and PodCamps and WSGs and Port80s
and AWIA events and WIPA events and blogger's meetups and *TUBs or
anything else where gatherings of PHP, Rails, JSP, ASP and plain old
web developers and *gasp* designers, sales people, business owners,
vendors, suppliers and recruiters congregate. If there's a healthy
contingent of CF developers at these events then CF must be thriving,
right?

BUT... people should go to these events not to push a CF barrow, but
because it's fun and will make them a better developer, networker,
contractor, business owner or whatever.

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
business: www.cleverstarfish.com
coldfusion: kay.smoljak.com
personal: goatlady.wordpress.com | heapsbad.com

Dale Fraser

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Apr 10, 2008, 12:41:04 AM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com

I never have trouble finding people, there are two things you can do.

 

1.  Advertise and hire someone

2.  Hire a keen junior person and train them

 

I do both here, works out well.

 

As for promoting CF, this isn't going to solve anything. There are three reasons CF isn't as popular the way I see it, but Adobe (and the community) do seem to want to address it.

 

1.  It's not fully OO, more OO stuff would give it a better chance at being taught by schools etc.

2.  It's not ECMA style scripting, you have to write tags and developers hate that if they have come from other langagues.

3.  Its not Free

 

So as a young developer you could use.

 

PHP, .NET or Java (or many others)

 

Which are free, readily available, lots of forumns etc, you can write OO code if you choose and in a familiar syntax.

 

Or you can choose to do something completely out of left field and pick something that is the opposite of the above. Its not that complex, if you were a young developer with those options, its an easy decision, CF is NOT in the running.

 

PS: I don't want to hear the yeah but CF is better, or easier, or quicker to code. I know all that, but the developers when they are young or the unis when they pick their topics, discount it for those three reasons. Die hard CF'ers will say making CF more OO or adding full scripting support is bad for the product as that's not what it's about. Well I say it's about time that Adobe joined the masses in making a ECMA, OO, Free languages. And they already know this obviously, and they have it already, it's called Action Script.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

http://learncf.com

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of AJ Mercer
Sent: Thursday, 10 April 2008 2:09 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

So do you think if you showed a PHP developer a free CFML engine they would jump ship?

Gary Barber

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Apr 10, 2008, 1:13:10 AM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Kay Smoljak wrote:
> <snip>

>
> What CF developers should do - and those of you from WA will know that
> I harp on about this a lot, to almost no effect - is participate in
> their local industry communities. People who think CF is dead often
> think so because CF developers are nowhere to be seen. They only go to
> CF events and aren't interested in anything else. They don't
> participate in BarCamps and WebJams and PodCamps and WSGs and Port80s
> and AWIA events and WIPA events and blogger's meetups and *TUBs or
> anything else where gatherings of PHP, Rails, JSP, ASP and plain old
> web developers and *gasp* designers, sales people, business owners,
> vendors, suppliers and recruiters congregate. If there's a healthy
> contingent of CF developers at these events then CF must be thriving,
> right?
>
What a great idea. I can't see that people have anything to lose.
Maybe I should be doing just that ;)

If only people just chat over a beer and wax on about their latest
project, it all helps.

<on soapbox>
Stop being mushrooms people get out and go to a new event this month
where you don't know anyone!
</on soapbox>


> BUT... people should go to these events not to push a CF barrow, but
> because it's fun and will make them a better developer, networker,
> contractor, business owner or whatever.
>

Kay Smoljak

unread,
Apr 10, 2008, 1:46:00 AM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Gary Barber <gary.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What a great idea. I can't see that people have anything to lose.
> Maybe I should be doing just that ;)

Hahaha - yeah Gary, stop being such a recluse!
See you at PTUB[1] tomorrow night?

[1] http://ptub.blogspot.com/2008/04/ptub-3-god-save-queens.html for
any Perth people

Chad Renando

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Apr 10, 2008, 10:37:34 PM4/10/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
I now post here as often as this topic comes up, which is now about
every 2 years. At least it is migrated from the ".NET vs. CF" to "CF
is dead".

CF developer from way back due to starting my career at what was then
a CF studio, I am now out of coding and now doing studio Production
Management. In the Brisbane recruitment climate, both my clients and
I are challenged to find CF developers on any sort of notice, much
less developers in general. While my inherent anti-establishment
nature held me back from the Microsoft route, it is refreshing to have
available an end-to-end integrated approach that the client (and my
not entirely technical self) can comprehend.

I'll go hide again now, and wish you the best as I remember fondly my
posts about how to use cfoutput.

I always have a soft spot for CF and lie to myself about cracking open
the certification books sitting on my shelf at home. But I just don't
see it happening.

Chad
who sees many things happening and often feels powerless to change it

Scott Barnes

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Apr 11, 2008, 12:47:31 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Yes, I did get promoted and thankfully no more Evangelism. I find the Evangelism scene, political, annoying and if i have one more heated debate with the competitors over something minor and trivial, I'll retire and go paint landscapes..
 
My new role is Product Manager in the Rich Client Platform Team (WPF/Silverlight).
 
Now that's out of the way.
 
Let me share some of my learned experience around technology adoption (specifically in Australia/New Zealand), and specifically brand awareness. Right now the benefits around why Coldfusion aren't there, in that they may technically be there but the fact is there is limited marketing around the product and not just the product but also the community surrounding the product.
 
My previous role was an Evangelist, and i bet if i asked anyone on this list what does that mean, I'd get various answers. An Evangelist role within Microsoft is simple, help folks with new emerging technology not by ramming it down their throats, but simply connecting them to people. In that, it wasn't my job to make you buy ASP.NET or adopt Silverlight, but if you showed an interest I'd connect you with some folks whom can either pay you to do the job, help you learn the technology or provide you with some overview/understanding of what the technologies we had offer could do. I'd also promote the new technology and with our team, do presos etc.. that and travel the world and attend really cool parties (but thats boring right).
 
Evangelism is crucial to keeping technical communities alive, as it's not only a contact sport but it's one that scales quite well - if architected correctly. Find generals in the field, help them, support them, provide as much as you can to enable them to scale. Right now you folks don't have Coldfusion Generals.
 
I mentioned at last years WebDU that Adobe should consider MVP programs or similar nature (I did myself no favours by doing this) and got laughed at, as if i was spreading some FUD around or something. MVP programs are extremely successful inside Microsoft communities, we ensure these folks are kept in the loop as much as possible and can call on the evangelists etc anytime should they need anything, some would say they are almost blue badges themselves. They also have no issue with beating us around the head should we screw up - some have and done really good job of it - we don't punish them for it, we instead fix whatever the heck we stuffed up on and apologise (should it be our fault) as to punish them would cause 20,000 times more pain for us then the original problem causes (basic math right).
 
Some fun facts about MVP's todate:
  • Worldwide there are more than 100 million participants in technical communities.
  • Of these participants there are only 4,000 MVPs located across 93 countries, spanning more than 30 languages and more than 90 Microsoft technologies.
  • There has been a 10 percent to 15 percent MVP audience growth in countries such as China, Russia and Korea
  • Over the past few years new regions with MVPs include the Republic of Congo, Ghana, Nepal, Macedonia and Macao
  • In recent years, a handful of MVPs have been awarded in new categories such as MSN, Xbox, Visual Studio Tools for Office, Microsoft Dynamics and Visual Studio Team System.
  • MVPs are a diverse group that includes accountants, teachers, artists, government workers, engineers and technologists.
 
Now, who's laughing? I'm not. It takes a lot of work to get someone into the MPV program, and just because your the most popular guy/girl on a mailing list doesn't automatically make you an MPV. It's not whom you know, it's what you know and I can say outloud, the paperwork internally to get someone on this program is an effort - but worth it in the end.
 
My point is really raw and simple. Call it FUD, i don't care - in fact i'd prefer to keep the politics out of this one. I spent a lot of years waiting for the Coldfusion scene to pickup. I like most of you at times took the crappy jobs while the market picked up, I also waited for Macromedia to finally get some budget to market and so on.. we got told a lot of promises and fast talkings at WebDU/MXDU's of past and yet nothing much has occurred. Year after year the Coldfusion question would come up, same or similiar responses would pacify us for only so long...
 
eg:
Remember Suncorp high-fives? Guess how many CF developers are left - over to you Darren.
 
I raise this point simply to say guys, enough. You have got realistically limited choices:
 
- Start acting like a community and foster better relationships. Don't bring in the same muffin eaters, look for new ones.
 
- Understand what motivates adoption in today's market.
 
- Older generation developers switch to languages simply due to boredom, perception of no work and last but most important of all, lack of support by the brand whom owns the language.
 
- WebDU should be bigger each year, but this year we're not even attending simply because I couldn't get an ROI story out of it. I'll be honest, year on year we attend, we really get low value out of attending. We'd rather focus our energy on events like WD07, BarCamps etc as these folks are not only agnostic but open to technology discussion, less about brand politics.
 
- Put more pressure on Adobe to get the budgets or better programs in place. I'm amazed that we in Australia have 13 Evangelists whom are kept busy 24/7 and Adobe has 0. One Evangelist for APAC? - how about you have your own local Adobe celeb to lead you instead of waiting for the US guys to fly out once a year?

 
If you think this thread is doing my employer any favours, think otherwise and i'm sure i'll get some feedback for it (Today is my last official day as Evangelist so i have a small amount of free reign here). I leave this as simply a parting gift to you folks before I head over to the US. I loved working in the Coldfusion space for many years, despite our petty email squabbles and thread wars - Taco Fleur, you're still cool - there have been some real quality friendships made out of this community (actually most of my best friends are Coldfusion Devs from past)
 
I'd hate to see that die off, but perception = reality and remember that. You can sit there and take it or whine about Microsoft all you like, but we didn't create this problem and more importantly there was a reason why i simply down tools and went over to Microsoft not knowing a lick of .NET and it wasn't to get one up on the Adobe/Macromedia crew.

That being said, my inbox is open to any whom wish to adopt .NET :)

Matt Bourke

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Apr 11, 2008, 3:57:01 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
There was a reason you down tools and joined bill, its called large ammounts of cash $$$ ka-ching!!

M@

Sent from my iPhone
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Scott Barnes

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Apr 11, 2008, 5:23:03 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
i got paid less then i was contracting, so no ;) - i joined because I saw potential in XAML and wanted to be as close to it as possible as this time i want to influence change.. now i have that chance ;)
 


 

Actually he is now a product manager for Silverlight.....

 

No more evangelism for Scott J

 

 

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 8 April 2008 8:03 PM


To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

Just in case anyone is new to the list, Scott is a .net product evangelist at Microsoft.

of cos he is most likely unbiased and posted his last comment via an iPhone :P





--
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com

CyberAngel

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Apr 11, 2008, 6:13:35 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com

You know Scott…

 

We have had our debates over time, and at the end of the day. I can’t even raise a finger to disagree with you.

 

Your last few posts have been well put, and for someone who technically is the opposition but I long time poster here has seen and done everything that most of us has. The trials and tribulations of Coldfusion will more than likely as Chad said, be debated again 2 years down the track. I got very heated with Sean Corfield for the reasons that we are talking about here.

 

The attitude was that the sales look good and that was all they cared about, but the point that got lost is that the jobs slowly disappeared and as I said to Sean if the sales are good then why aren’t developer numbers increasing, rather than decreasing?

 

I got irate with Sean, because even though I respect his knowledge and who he is. I lost respect for him at the time because he wasn’t looking at the bigger picture. That was 5 years ago, and now it is being discussed again.

 

Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could be subject to more applications by the company that I currently don’t use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don’t need to preach that to you Scott.

 

As for promoting the product, we as a developer can go so far. The rest is up to the company, and if there is no support from the company then we as a developer have to do what is right for ourselves. And if that means moving to .Net or Java then so be it, I must admit I love .Net and rather find Java a pain in the rear end. But I am forced to use Java in my job now, and there is nothing more that Adobe can do about that. If the business model was different, and the engine was open sourced it might have been a different story. (Sorry to bring that up again) But for those of you who don’t know my boss was a Coldfusion developer, but due to the lack of good developers he looked past that and looked at the money offerings in work from elsewhere.

 

That is the reality of our company, he would have continued with Coldfusion but not at its cost and lack of foreseeable future of support of our products. For web design, Coldfusion will always be seen as the niche application that does everything but costs your first born.

 

Anyway Scott, from me I wish you all the best. I miss our debatesJ

 

 

Andrew Scott

<br

Scott Barnes

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Apr 11, 2008, 6:36:46 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Sean's a top bloke, and i wouldn't bare any grudges or blame his way. I'm sure he fought a lot untold / unsaid battles within the belly of the beast (just like I and others do inside Microsoft silently to the outside world - what you think it's all roses inside the firewall?). I also wouldn't of thought he was the man to talk to in this regard, but anyway.
 
I think at WebDU, you have your moment with Adobe, as a community decide what action items you want from them, calmly put forward your requirements and needs (as a collective audience) and make sure you get commitment / definitive dates. Don't settle for "we're looking into that.." (i know our audiences crucify me the moment i attemp that little question dodge / answer on serious questions)
 
Scott.
I think this the first time ever you've agreed with me Andrew.. you have no idea how nervous i feel now.. almost naked like vulnerable.

CyberAngel

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Apr 11, 2008, 6:41:41 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com

Well make it two in a row then.

 

However I will state this though, Sean jumped into a debate about the future of CF at the time and working for Macromedia at the time he just happened to be well the wrong side of the line I guess. Nothing against him on that.

 

Hehe….

<br

Peter Bell

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Apr 11, 2008, 10:49:09 AM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could be subject to more applications by the company that I currently don’t use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don’t need to preach that to you Scott.

Well, this does sound a little like the Adobe Community Expert program - http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/

There are only about 30 ColdFusion Adobe Community Experts worldwide, however:

and in Australia, I think it's just Geoff Bowers, Mark Mandell and Andrew Muller, so it's a little sparser than the Microsoft program . . .

Best Wishes,
Peter 

charlie arehart

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Apr 11, 2008, 12:48:51 PM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com

I was about to make the same point, Peter, and checked before sending my note to see yours. :-)  Here’s some more I was going to add:

 

The raw numbers of Adobe Community Experts may not be as high as MVPs, but then the MS pool of developers (across all products) is just that much larger. I suspect the ratio of CF Community Experts to total CF developers may not be that much less than that of .NET MVPs to total .NET developers. Scott, do you know how many .NET MVPs there are, and how many .NET developers total? May be interesting for this discussion.

 

Anyway, someone may say, “however many CEs there are, why don’t we hear more from them?” Well, how do you know that you don’t? They may not emblazon their sites and emails with their title, and the reason may interest/disturb some:  we can’t just call ourselves ACEs, that acronym was already taken by the Adobe Certified Experts program, so anyone who’s passed a cert can call themselves an ACE. The CE program was introduced after the merger with MM. I don’t doubt that some CEs are reluctant to spell out the title because it seems a little arrogant (just as MVPs may if they had to do the same). I think this challenge a bigger shame and issue than most realize, but I’ve raised it before to no avail.

 

In any case, we just got through talking here about how there are many in the community who evangelize only within the community, with some asserting that they should do more outside of it. As a CE myself, I can say that there’s no specific push for us to be more involved in evangelism outside our communities. It is as much about supporting the current community.

 

But then do MVPs really focus on that so much? I don’t know.  Scott?

 

It’s an interesting discussion, but then like world peace and global warming, it may be bigger than we can solve here.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bell
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:49 AM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

Scott, I must admit I never thought of an MVP style program for adobe but it would be rather good to adopt… Well it would, I could be subject to more applications by the company that I currently don’t use now, nor am I aware that they offer. But I don’t need to preach that to you Scott.

Peter Bell

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Apr 11, 2008, 1:11:20 PM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com
And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British Computer Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation 2007. In each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each case I mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or Java.

Of course, the thing about evangelizing outside of the community is that nobody within the community knows when it's being done!

Also Dan Wilson is doing great stuff on DZone and Kay S on SitePoint getting the ColdFusion word out, so it's getting there . . .

Best Wishes,
Peter

charlie arehart

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Apr 11, 2008, 1:19:28 PM4/11/08
to cfau...@googlegroups.com

Good on ya, Pete. :-)  And good point about how more may be being done than is recognized. We clearly have a large hill to climb, and it may seem like we’re making no progress. Good to point out that there are indeed some efforts underway.

 

/charlie

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bell
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:11 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: recruters say "CF on the way out"? ... FFS! not FUD from them too?

 

And as mentioned when this came up on another list recently, I think people do evangelize outside the community. In the last year I presented at ooPSLA '07 in Montreal, the Domain Specific Modeling Forum, the British Computer Society Software Practices Advancement group and Code Generation 2007. In each case there are some pretty influential developers and in each case I mention the language I use and why I choose it over Python, PHP, Ruby, C# or Java.

CyberAngel

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Apr 11, 2008, 5:56:14 PM4/11/08