What the ColdFusion community needs more of...

[Dawesi]

Passion, enthuisasm

events like this:

http://www.sydneydevcamp.com/

Adobe needs to stop just collecting money from the 'ATM that keeps on giving' are share it around to reboot the community and therefore increase sales!

Just a thought.

[Barry Beattie]

easy.

form an organisation with a catchy name and/or grass roots.
Find a training venue (QANTM Sydney in Surry Hills?)

Tap into interest for people wanting to change careers or hitting a
wall with their current one:

"What does a career in Ruby look like in the Sydney area?
Ruby on Rails is a cool technology. In Australia, the average starting
salary for a Ruby on Rails developer is about AUD80k. The high
Tech/Start-up community is booming down-under and we all need skilled
Ruby developers to turn Sydney into the next Silicon Valley!"

charge tuition to cover it (you gotta at least pay the trainers and
venue for the training space - we've all got mouths to feed)

"The cost for the semester is AUD 8,000. However, we will give you a
AUD 1,000 discount if you pay the entire tuition upfront as we want
our program to be affordable for everyone"

$8k is either expensive or reasonable - depending on how valuable it
is personally and if you get any recognised certification at the end
of it. I've paid too much for the IIBA courses I've done but felt I
had no choice.

Please don't think I'm being cynical - I've just learned to read
between the lines when it comes to training. There's no such thing as
a free lunch. I've taken a job delivering "free training" (really: no
monetary cost to the participant) - but the tab is being picked up by
the Federal Govt (sorry, not CF).

If you want "Passion, enthuisasm" then supporting cf.Objective(ANZ)
comes to mind. Or WebDU for that matter. Or, dare I say it ... the
local CF user group?

I'll shut up now and crawl back into my hole.

Barry Beattie

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[Dawesi]

Those events support the local community, what I'm talking about is an injection of enthusiasm that non-CF people will get excited about attending. (not necessarily the same event as above)

In the early 2000's there was a groundswell of excitement around this tech, just wanting to work out how to get it rolling again. Adobe has the cash from the product, just needs to put money back into promotion of the product at grass roots and management levels.

Dawesi

[Kai Koenig]

The solution is easy. If you want to be in the CFML space at the moment, play with Railo and be excited :) There you go.

Cheers
Kai

[Dale Fraser]

ColdFusion definatly doesn't need a $8k course.

 

No one would pay for it, you would have to be crazy.

 

Even for a new cutting edge technology, $8k is a lot

 

If Adobe were to sponsor / subsidise this it would be a different story.

 

On another not who in the world can take 10 weeks off full time to do such a course.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dale.fraser.id.au

--

[Barry Beattie]

> On another note who in the world can take 10 weeks off full time to do such a
> course.

the unemployed, students, etc. I was four months unemployed last year.
I was three months unemployed (thanks, Can-Do Campbell!) until
recently. It happens.

> If Adobe were to sponsor / subsidise this it would be a different story.

now you're talking, although it would have to be through their
training partners, surely to keep them onside?

[M@ Bourke]

Coldfusion needs more of a move to the OSS servers, and people hanging with other OSS devs and telling them about Railo etc.

I go to several different language groups where I live, if I say I use coldfusion they're stunned and the conversation ends there, if I say "I use Railo its an open source Coldfusion server" "oh really?" "yeah there is more than one open source server plus one Adobe still makes"

fortunately the last 2 conferences I went to, over 70% of devs were using Railo commercially, the tide is turning fast

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[Dale Fraser]

Not through their training partners.

The problem with training guys is they want $1k per person per day

Why should they earn $10k per day. Adobe should pay a trainer $1k per day
and let heaps of people go for free.

I tried to organise similar training once, pay the trainer a good daily rate
and get them to train 10 people, but no trainer is greedy and wants a per
person fee.

Sorry no dice.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dale.fraser.id.au

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[Dale Fraser]

I'll prefix this by saying I like Railo and think it has something to offer.

 

However moving from a niche product ColdFusion to an even more niche product Railo certainly holds risk.

 

I wonder how many people would use Railo if ColdFusion were free.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dale.fraser.id.au

 

From: cfau...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cfau...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of M@ Bourke

Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012 6:17 PM
To: cfau...@googlegroups.com

[Mark Mandel]

I hate to point this out but...

Why would a student bet his future on a programming language that is such a small part of the global programming community?  Statistically, it just doesn't make any sense.

Especially at that price?

E: mark....@gmail.com
T: http://www.twitter.com/neurotic
W: www.compoundtheory.com

2 Devs from Down Under Podcast

http://www.2ddu.com/

[Kai Koenig]

Not sure sure which trainers would try to charge 1k per person per day, that's quite outrageous.

However, Dale - to expect a good trainer to charge you 1k for a day and you can put 10 people in the room is quite unrealistic, too.

Instructing is always a balance from a trainer's point of view:

a) Opportunity cost (if one could earn 1k per day from development work, why would they offer a training for the same rate)

b) Teach-yourself-out-of-work cost: Why would one train other developers "to do their job" for only a small amount of money more than doing development work themselves.

Just to give you an idea, depending on the technology I personally charge between 1500-2000 per day for in-house training plus all travel and accommodation cost. That would usually cover a group of up to 6 people, if the client wants to put more people into the course there'd be additional charges. This model seems to work very well. If you happen to find that too expensive for quality tuition that'd be fair enough; we just won't get together then based on such a model :-)

Please note that this all refers to inhouse-training only. Training booked and provided through a 3rd part training company with "publicly" held and bookable courses is a totally different game again.

Cheers

Kai

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[Kai Koenig]

Why would a student bet his future on a programming language that is such a small part of the global programming community?  Statistically, it just doesn't make any sense.

Especially at that price?

Are you talking about the Rails link floating around or about a potential CFML version of it?

I'd say it's the wrong thing to do/offer/attend either way to be honest.

Cheers

Kai

[Mark Mandel]

The potential cfml version of it.

I've head a lot of ruby people say that Rails is starting to show it's gray hairs (probably due it's monolithic stack), but Ruby has far and wide penetration and an enormous community (especially here in Melbourne it seems), so it still has a fair amount of momentum in it for sure. 

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[Kai Koenig]

Well fair enough, but still - would you book an 8 week Rails course with random promises as made on that site without knowing about who's behind it, who the teachers are etc...? :)

[Mark Mandel]

Oh that's a totally different problem!

I just made the assumption that the training was good.

Mark

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Kai Koenig <grmb...@gmail.com> wrote:

but still - would you book an 8 week Rails course with random promises as made on that site without knowing about who's behind it, who the teachers are etc...? :)

[AJ Mercer]

I feel a 2ddu podcast brewing ;-)

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[Mark Mandel]

Might be ;)

Mark

[Dale Fraser]

No Kai,

 

I think your proposal is reasonable, its just not what I've seen here.

 

It was $10k for 10 people, perhaps for 1 it would have been $2k or $3k not sure, but $1k per person per day wasn't reasonable.

 

Their justification it was less expensive than sending everyone to the offsite course.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dale.fraser.id.au

 

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[M@ Bourke]

Personally I'm not a fan of training, its great for some people, everyone has different ways of learning, my last company offered us either  several days of training a year or several days to go and study at home. 

I chose the latter.

I'd rather my employer (when I'm an employee) to simply say "sit at your desk and learn x for 2 days" 

than be in a class where its simply "copy code from a course book into a computer and not really pay too much attention to what it is"  I know that isn't the idea of a course lol but its how I find them.

different strokes for different folks.

[Robin Hilliard]

RocketBoots lost money hand-over-fist as a ColdFusion trainer, which is why we don't do it anymore.

1k per person per day was pretty standard for other programming courses at the time, e.g a Sun Java training course. Dynamic were running the CF courses at something like 1,700 for a three day course, so half that day rate - we still had students unhappy about the price, trouble filling courses (remember, like an airline courses have to go ahead even when the classroom is mostly empty) and the instructors tended to loose money every day they took a break from development work to teach.

Robin

	ROBIN HILLIARD Chief Technology Officer ro...@rocketboots.com.au RocketBoots Pty Ltd Level 11 189 Kent Street Sydney NSW 2001 Australia Phone +61 2 9323 2507 Facsimile +61 2 9323 2501 Mobile +61 418 414 341 www.rocketboots.com.au