Nvu 1.0 open source WYSIWYG editor launched

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---
Check it out here:
http://nvu.com/screenshots.html

So, is anyone in CF involved with this to code the CFML code coloring
and maybe a Tag Editor?

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This thing is a whole desktop Web publishing system, not just a WYSIWYG editor. It looks very similar to FrontPage.

>Check it out here:
>http://nvu.com/screenshots.html
>
>So, is anyone in CF involved with this to code the CFML code coloring
>and maybe a Tag Editor?

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AAAAAH!

/me runs in fear

--Ben

Robert Munn wrote:
> This thing is a whole desktop Web publishing system, not just a WYSIWYG editor. It looks very similar to FrontPage.
>
>
>>Check it out here:
>>http://nvu.com/screenshots.html
>>
>>So, is anyone in CF involved with this to code the CFML code coloring
>>and maybe a Tag Editor?

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Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom, you
know.

Last march of the Ents and all.

Jim Davis





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Too much of the pipe-weed last night?

On 7/5/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom, you
> know.
>
> Last march of the Ents and all.
>
> Jim Davis
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Either that or watching LOTR:Return of the King a few too many times I imagine.
larry

On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Too much of the pipe-weed last night?
>
> On 7/5/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> > Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom, you
> > know.
> >
> > Last march of the Ents and all.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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Are those the giant walking trees? By the far the stupidest part of an
otherwise surprisingly enjoyable movie series.

> Either that or watching LOTR:Return of the King a few too many times I
> imagine.
> larry
>
> On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Too much of the pipe-weed last night?
>>
>> On 7/5/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
>> > Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom,
>> > you
>> > know.
>> >
>> > Last march of the Ents and all.
>> >
>> > Jim Davis
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

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I'm guessing you didn't read the novels?

On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:
> Are those the giant walking trees? By the far the stupidest part of an
> otherwise surprisingly enjoyable movie series.
>
>
> > Either that or watching LOTR:Return of the King a few too many times I
> > imagine.
> > larry
> >
> > On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Too much of the pipe-weed last night?
> >>
> >> On 7/5/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> >> > Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom,
> >> > you
> >> > know.
> >> >
> >> > Last march of the Ents and all.
> >> >
> >> > Jim Davis
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

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Nope.

I'm not big into "fantasy" stories....but I love sci-fi movies, and any
movie with a big budget and monsters and large battles is going to get my
money :)

> I'm guessing you didn't read the novels?
>
> On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:
>> Are those the giant walking trees? By the far the stupidest part of an
>> otherwise surprisingly enjoyable movie series.
>>
>>
>> > Either that or watching LOTR:Return of the King a few too many times I
>> > imagine.
>> > larry
>> >
>> > On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Too much of the pipe-weed last night?
>> >>
>> >> On 7/5/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
>> >> > Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their
>> >> > doom,
>> >> > you
>> >> > know.
>> >> >
>> >> > Last march of the Ents and all.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jim Davis
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

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I'm not really sure how they could have the Ents any more believable,
but the purists would have been up in arms had they left the Ents out
of the story.

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True, folks like me would have had kittens. Especially since the Ents were key to defeating Saruman and allowed Aragorn to recover the palantir.

But I think you were being hasty announcing their war ;)

Russel

>I'm not really sure how they could have the Ents any more believable,
>but the purists would have been up in arms had they left the Ents out
>of the story.
>
>
>On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:
>>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:kgr...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:25 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>
> Too much of the pipe-weed last night?

Nope. On a long, last minute project that HAD to be done before this
morning. ;^)

I ended up watching all three extended editions in a row while doing it...

Jim Davis





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And you survived? Thats the amazing part.

larry

On 7/6/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:kgr...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:25 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
> >
> > Too much of the pipe-weed last night?
>
> Nope. On a long, last minute project that HAD to be done before this
> morning. ;^)
>
> I ended up watching all three extended editions in a row while doing it...
>
> Jim Davis
>
>
>
>
>
>

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---
I guess by "purists" you mean the book readers who are looking for a
straight on-screen interpretation. In that aspect, I agree. If that's how it
unfolds in the book, it should be done as such on screen.

But us non-fantasy folks shake our heads when such silly tricks are used to
shore up the plot. Tolkien couldn't figure out how to destroy Isingard (i
think i have that name right, with butchered spelling i'm sure) using
believable aspects/characters of the story, so he invents walking trees to
do it. I know such things are the life-blood of fantasy story
telling....which I guess is why I'm not a fan of it.

A similar trick was used at the end of Return of the King, with the ghost
warriors. Why would a ghost, who can't be killed, be reluctant to fight a
battle to regain their honor? Makes no sense....the ghost warriors should
have been flesh-and-blood outcasts risking real life and limb to regain
their standing.

All and all though i really enjoyed the movies, which is a testament to
Jackson. Aragorn was one of the best developed, written, and acted
characters i've ever seen on screen....

> True, folks like me would have had kittens. Especially since the Ents
> were key to defeating Saruman and allowed >Aragorn to recover the
> palantir.
>
> But I think you were being hasty announcing their war ;)
>
> Russel
>
>>I'm not really sure how they could have the Ents any more believable,
>>but the purists would have been up in arms had they left the Ents out
>>of the story.
>>
>>
>>On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:
>>>
>
>

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That's what? 12 straight hrs of coding & movie watching? 14?

> And you survived? Thats the amazing part.

> larry

> On 7/6/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:kgr...@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:25 AM
>> > To: CF-Community
>> > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>> >
>> > Too much of the pipe-weed last night?
>>
>> Nope. On a long, last minute project that HAD to be done
>> before this
>> morning. ;^)
>>
>> I ended up watching all three extended editions in a row
>> while doing it...
>>
>> Jim Davis

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> shore up the plot. Tolkien couldn't figure out how to destroy Isingard (i
> think i have that name right, with butchered spelling i'm sure) using
> believable aspects/characters of the story, so he invents walking trees to

'Cause, you know, a more-or-less imortal sorcerer manifested as a giant
eye and a magic ring that grants invisibility are believable.

Geez!

--Ben

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---
Sorry Brian, but you missed the whole point of Tolkien's writing then.
He's fundamentally a mythologist. Ents are one of his mythological
creatures. They are no more or less real than the humans in his story.

Just as centaurs, cyclops, the kraken, etc were essential to the
Greeks and the niebelung, valkerie, six legged horses, etc were
essential to the stories of the Norse.

-Kevin

On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:
> But us non-fantasy folks shake our heads when such silly tricks are used to
> shore up the plot. Tolkien couldn't figure out how to destroy Isingard (i
> think i have that name right, with butchered spelling i'm sure) using
> believable aspects/characters of the story, so he invents walking trees to
> do it. I know such things are the life-blood of fantasy story
> telling....which I guess is why I'm not a fan of it.

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---
actually the reluctance was Jackson, I think. In the book not much is
made of these spirits. Aragorn reappears leading them but the how of
this is not explained.

I disliked the appearance of the Ents in the movie -- though I can't
really say how it could have been done better -- but I really loved
them when I read the books. Slow-moving majestic creatures who watch
civilizations go past.. it really caught my imagination.

Nor do I think that Tolkien invented them, actually. A lot of his work
is really a remix of various elements of British folklore. The Green
Man, barrows, ancient civilizations to the south, magical folk to the
west across a sea...

Dana

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---
Before the smackdown: eight legged.

On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> six legged horses

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Heretic. Burn him.

that said you need to read the books to really understand how it hangs
together. Also remember Tolkien was writing as one of the most
significant folklorists/linguists/experts at dark ages and medieval
English at the time. Almost everything in LOTR has a basis in that.
The Ents are fundamental part of the fabric of the story. Tolkien's
commentaries and other works confirm it.

As for the damned - that was the only way they could gain rest was
fulfilling their oath. They could not die until then because Isildur
cursed them when they refused to participate in the earlier Ring war 2
or 3 thousand years before. The only way they could fulfill their own
was to respond to the summons of Isildur's heir.

Generally I am disappointed that Jackson did not include either Tom
Bombadil or the Scouring of the Shire. I can understand why he did not
include the Tom Bombadil sideline - it was tacked on as an
afterthought almost according to Tolkien's son and continuator.
Moreover it did not really fit in to the rest of the tale. Bombadil is
a figure from very old English legends, going back to about the same
time as Beowulf.

As for the Scouring of the Shire, as far as I am concerned that should
have been done, at least to show how much the four hobbits had grown
(literally and metaphorically). Also there's something to be said
about watching little people beat the crap out of each other. (Bet you
can't get that reference Jim ;). It also provides a good denouement
for the trilogy, and wraps things up in a way that was believable and
simply worked very well.

larry

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---

> I guess by "purists" you mean the book readers who are
> looking for a straight on-screen interpretation. In that
> aspect, I agree. If that's how it unfolds in the book,
> it should be done as such on screen.

> But us non-fantasy folks shake our heads when such silly
> tricks are used to shore up the plot. Tolkien couldn't
> figure out how to destroy Isingard (i think i have that
> name right, with butchered spelling i'm sure) using
> believable aspects/characters of the story, so he invents
> walking trees to do it. I know such things are the
> life-blood of fantasy story telling....which I guess is
> why I'm not a fan of it.

I believe Tolkien was both a historian and an expert of folk-lore. He
didn't invent the ents -- they're a much older idea than Tolkien. As
with dragons, elves, dwarves and I suspect hobbits (brownees -- who I
heard were a short-statured group of humans who built burrow-like
homes in ... Scottland I think is what I heard... but of course the
effect of rumor over time turns them into something other than human).
The difference is that the stories fo the ents aren't as popular as
the stories of these other creatures, so unless you're a bit more
familiar with the history and the folk-lore, Tolkien's work (or work
based on Tolkien's work) is likely to be your first or only exposure
to the idea.

> A similar trick was used at the end of Return of the
> King, with the ghost warriors. Why would a ghost, who
> can't be killed, be reluctant to fight a battle to
> regain their honor? Makes no sense....the ghost warriors
> should have been flesh-and-blood outcasts risking real
> life and limb to regain their standing.

And they could have worn kevlar and used M-16's and drove Humvee's for
that really gritty-real feeling. :-/

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
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All movies must grapple with believability, even fantasy. You create your
fantasy world, then your characters must operate within that world. If you
believe in the world, the fantasy works. If the world is unbelievable to
start with, or if the story continually muddies that world, you run the risk
of shattering the fantasy.....for me at least.

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---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: G [mailto:brian...@si-intl-kc.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:39 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> I guess by "purists" you mean the book readers who are looking for a
> straight on-screen interpretation. In that aspect, I agree. If that's how
> it
> unfolds in the book, it should be done as such on screen.
>
> But us non-fantasy folks shake our heads when such silly tricks are used
> to
> shore up the plot. Tolkien couldn't figure out how to destroy Isingard (i
> think i have that name right, with butchered spelling i'm sure) using
> believable aspects/characters of the story, so he invents walking trees to
> do it. I know such things are the life-blood of fantasy story
> telling....which I guess is why I'm not a fan of it.

As you say, it was a fantasy and fantasy's have unrealistic twists... but I
think you're missing the point of this bit.

The entire summation of Tolkien's plot is "unlikely heroes save the world"
Without Merry and Pippin Isengaurd would not have been tamed and (more
importantly although it not shown in the theatrical release of "The Two
Towers") Helm's Deep would have fallen.

(In the book Saruman's army of orcs is destroyed ultimately by an army of
trees sent by the Ents.)

The main point is that Merry and Pippen, small, ineffectual, often ridiculed
Merry and Pippen put all of this in effect. There's also a strong line of
"don't fuck with nature" as well (Saruman clearly represents modernization
while the Ents represent mother nature).

The ring never would have been destroyed had it not been for Frodo's
perseverance and Sam's honest strength. Although nearly left behind for the
battle Merry is instrumental in destroying the Witch King. Pippin saves
Faramir's life.

It's also a repeated theme that they never actually complete the act.
They're pivotal in the completion, but not the ultimate perpetrators.
They're the fulcrum, the pivot point - without them the great powers and
heroes could never have done what they did.

Gollum's lust destroys the ring, not Frodo. Merry doesn't kill the Witch
King, he just distracts him. Pippen needs Gandalf's help to save Faramir.
Pippin and Merry are really just along for the ride once they get the Ents
fired up.

This story is about the power of the small, regular people of the world when
pressed to do great things (not surprising since Tolkien lived through the
German blitz). It's how those small people can affect big things even if
history doesn't always give them the credit they deserve.

Most people's argument with the book is Tolkien's sense of small scale in
the giant world. "Only nine people are sent to destroy the ring! Why not
send an army? Why can't Gandalf send Frodo on the backs of the Eagles? Why
don't the wizards do real magic?" and so forth.

Well... it's just not that kind of book. ;^)

It's not a perfect story... I was never thrilled about the paths of the dead
(although it did dramatically highlight Aragorn's acceptance of his
birthright and is a major turning point for the character). I would have
also liked to see the dwarves out in force to honor the old alliances
(except for Gimli he just plain forgot the dwarves).

Jim Davis





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I missed the scouring of the Shire too especially since he did have
that incredibly long-winded farewell.

But does Bombadil show up as Bombadil? I thought he was a renamed Green Man.

Dana

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---
> Before the smackdown: eight legged.

> On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> six legged horses

Hey... do you have any recommendations for researching Norse
mythology? Books, sites, etc?

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In talking about the Ents, Tolkien references Shakespeare's Macbeth:

"Their part in the story is due, I think, to my bitter disappointment
and disgust from schooldays with the shabby use made in Shakespeare of
the coming of 'Great Burnam wood to high Dunsinane hill'. I longed to
devise a setting in which the trees might really march to war."

http://www.shaksper.net/archives/2002/2459.html

-Kevin

On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry Brian, but you missed the whole point of Tolkien's writing then.
> He's fundamentally a mythologist. Ents are one of his mythological
> creatures. They are no more or less real than the humans in his story.
>
> Just as centaurs, cyclops, the kraken, etc were essential to the
> Greeks and the niebelung, valkerie, six legged horses, etc were
> essential to the stories of the Norse.
>
> -Kevin

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---
So what is this scouring of the Shire anyway....?

>I missed the scouring of the Shire too especially since he did have
> that incredibly long-winded farewell.
>
> But does Bombadil show up as Bombadil? I thought he was a renamed Green
> Man.
>
> Dana
>

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My own two cent literary analysis is the Bombidil(sp) and the Scouring of the Shire are the bookends (no pun really intended) of the story.

They show how the hobbits have changed from bumbling naïve simple folk who need saving, to "men" knowledgeable of the wide world and can take care of their own.


For G

The Scouring of the Shire was the end of the book, where the hobbits return to the shire and find it over run by evil men left over from the Great War and the hobbits enslaved and imprisoned. The four heroes then lead a revolt to remove these men.

--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

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- Cynthia Dunning

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in the book the hobbits come home and find that Saruman has taken over
and has instituted an industrial revolution complete with factories
and pollution. They drive him out.

Dana

On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:

> So what is this scouring of the Shire anyway....?
>
>
> >I missed the scouring of the Shire too especially since he did have
> > that incredibly long-winded farewell.
> >
> > But does Bombadil show up as Bombadil? I thought he was a renamed Green
> > Man.
> >
> > Dana
> >
>
>
>
>

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---

On 7/6/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: G [mailto:brian...@si-intl-kc.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:39 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
> >

> This story is about the power of the small, regular people of the world when
> pressed to do great things (not surprising since Tolkien lived through the
> German blitz). It's how those small people can affect big things even if
> history doesn't always give them the credit they deserve.

Just a quibble point, Oxford was never really bombed, so Tolkien never
really experienced the German bombing campaign like London or
Coventry. However he was in the nastiest parts of the western front in
the first world war, like the Somme and Paschendale, so your theme
still holds up.

>
> Most people's argument with the book is Tolkien's sense of small scale in
> the giant world. "Only nine people are sent to destroy the ring! Why not
> send an army? Why can't Gandalf send Frodo on the backs of the Eagles? Why
> don't the wizards do real magic?" and so forth.
>
> Well... it's just not that kind of book. ;^)

When I first read it as a kid I couldn't understand why they just did
not tie Frodo up with the ring, then using an eagle, dive bomb him
into the Cracks of Doom. As for using an army to ge the ring to Mt.
Doom, there's a lot to be said about inconspicuousness. Nine people
wandering in the waste is a lot less noticable than 10,000 well armed
soldiers. for every soldier the west could send on this, Sauron could
send 100 to stop them. In the meeting at Rivendell in the first book
this was discussed. Also what occurred at the Council of Rivendell was
discussed in much greater depth in Christopher Tolkein's War of the
Ring than in the Fellowship of the Ring.

>
> It's not a perfect story... I was never thrilled about the paths of the dead
> (although it did dramatically highlight Aragorn's acceptance of his
> birthright and is a major turning point for the character). I would have
> also liked to see the dwarves out in force to honor the old alliances
> (except for Gimli he just plain forgot the dwarves).

Tolkein covered that fairly well too - in the 2nd book and the
appendices Gimli was told of the attacks by Sauron on the dwarven
kingdoms. They could not send any forces because there was nothing
left to send, everything was used for the defense of the mountain (the
dwarven kingdom that was re-established at the end of the Hobbit). The
appendix of LOTR gave a fairly good timeline for that entire sequence.

larry

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---
Saruman manages to take over the Shire. Frodo et al lead a successful
revolution to turf him and his supporters out.

larry

On 7/6/05, G <brian...@si-intl-kc.com> wrote:

> So what is this scouring of the Shire anyway....?
>
>
> >I missed the scouring of the Shire too especially since he did have
> > that incredibly long-winded farewell.
> >
> > But does Bombadil show up as Bombadil? I thought he was a renamed Green
> > Man.
> >
> > Dana
> >
>
>
>
>

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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163113
---
I guess I'm just trying to figure out why you had a problem with Ents,
but not hobbits, elves, Sauron, Gandalf, etc.

Personally, I can no longer suspend disbelief whenever the characters in
a musical break into song. :-)

--Ben

G wrote:
> All movies must grapple with believability, even fantasy. You create your
> fantasy world, then your characters must operate within that world. If you
> believe in the world, the fantasy works. If the world is unbelievable to
> start with, or if the story continually muddies that world, you run the risk
> of shattering the fantasy.....for me at least.
>
>
>>'Cause, you know, a more-or-less imortal sorcerer manifested as a giant
>>eye and a magic ring that grants invisibility are believable.
>>
>>Geez!
>>
>>--Ben
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163114
---

On 7/6/05, S. Isaac Dealey <in...@turnkey.to> wrote:
> Hey... do you have any recommendations for researching Norse
> mythology? Books, sites, etc?

Not anything I consider really definitive. Not like Edith Hamilton for
the Greek mythology. The thing with so much of mythology is that it
was generally oral tradition so just reading one telling of the
stories is rarely THE story. And of course, with neo-paganism there's
been a lot of dilution as well. So I just read a random assortment of
it, some history, and try to sort wheat from chaff.

It's interesting though, I was watching Troy last night and realized
that I grew up more on greek mythology than judeo-christian. Not to
say that I'm really knowledgeable about greek mythology either, but it
was just an interesting self observation.

-Kevin

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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163121
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:04 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> Heretic. Burn him.

>
> As for the Scouring of the Shire, as far as I am concerned that should
> have been done, at least to show how much the four hobbits had grown
> (literally and metaphorically). Also there's something to be said
> about watching little people beat the crap out of each other. (Bet you
> can't get that reference Jim ;). It also provides a good denouement
> for the trilogy, and wraps things up in a way that was believable and
> simply worked very well.

No... I'm lost with the reference. ;^)

But I agree completely - the scouring of the Shire was the most emotional
part of the books for me on a broad level.

These four, having saved the larger world in countless ways come home to put
a smack-down on a powerless wizard and his toady and it's only for that
relatively insignificant act that they're feted in their homeland.

The small, insignificant people of the world can do great things when
pressed... but it's unlikely that there fellows will understand the true
measure of their deeds when they come home.

You get a tiny, teeny sense of this in the movie when the four are sitting
the Green Dragon totally ignored by everyone else but the farmer with the
huge pumpkin is being toasted and crowded.

Jim Davis

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---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:in...@turnkey.to]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:13 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> > Before the smackdown: eight legged.
>
> > On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> six legged horses
>
> Hey... do you have any recommendations for researching Norse
> mythology? Books, sites, etc?

How about the "Legends and Lore" Dungeons and Dragons book?

You not only get their names and pictures but their hit points and
saves-vrs-fire as well! ;^)

Jim Davis





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---
if your looking for a good book on mythology find a nice translation
of the Eddas

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

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---
Long Dark Teatime of the Soul has a great take on Norse Mythology btw...
of course being Douglas Adams it isn't what you want to learn more
about the original myths.

Try these
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/mythology.html
http://www.luth.se/luth/present/sweden/history/gods/Old_norse_myth.html

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163128
---
I don't know.....perhaps it has to do with the fact that I can't look out
the front window of my house and see hobbits, elves, etc.....but I can look
out and see plenty of trees....and they aint marchin ta war.

It's probably not a good reason, but I just can't help but feeling cheated
somehow when the trees suddenly come alive and do battle....

>I guess I'm just trying to figure out why you had a problem with Ents,
> but not hobbits, elves, Sauron, Gandalf, etc.
>
> Personally, I can no longer suspend disbelief whenever the characters in
> a musical break into song. :-)
>
> --Ben
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163134

---
On 7/6/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:04 PM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
> >
> > Heretic. Burn him.
> >
> > As for the Scouring of the Shire, as far as I am concerned that should
> > have been done, at least to show how much the four hobbits had grown
> > (literally and metaphorically). Also there's something to be said
> > about watching little people beat the crap out of each other. (Bet you
> > can't get that reference Jim ;). It also provides a good denouement
> > for the trilogy, and wraps things up in a way that was believable and
> > simply worked very well.
>
> No... I'm lost with the reference. ;^)

Time Bandits.

>
> But I agree completely - the scouring of the Shire was the most emotional
> part of the books for me on a broad level.
>
> These four, having saved the larger world in countless ways come home to put
> a smack-down on a powerless wizard and his toady and it's only for that
> relatively insignificant act that they're feted in their homeland.
>
> The small, insignificant people of the world can do great things when
> pressed... but it's unlikely that there fellows will understand the true
> measure of their deeds when they come home.
>
> You get a tiny, teeny sense of this in the movie when the four are sitting
> the Green Dragon totally ignored by everyone else but the farmer with the
> huge pumpkin is being toasted and crowded.
>
> Jim Davis
>

I was fortunate to have known several survivors of the western front,
that exactly was their feelings when they returned. I imagine that is
one of the things that Tolkien built on when writing the Scouring of
the Shire.

larry

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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163135

---
> On 7/6/05, S. Isaac Dealey <in...@turnkey.to> wrote:

>> Hey... do you have any recommendations for researching
>> Norse mythology? Books, sites, etc?

> Not anything I consider really definitive. Not like Edith
> Hamilton for the Greek mythology. The thing with so much
> of mythology is that it was generally oral tradition so
> just reading one telling of the stories is rarely THE
> story. And of course, with neo-paganism there's been a
> lot of dilution as well. So I just read a random
> assortment of it, some history, and try to sort wheat
> from chaff.

Yea, I was hoping for something like an anthological or a research
piece that uses several (or many) sources with a good bibliography.

> It's interesting though, I was watching Troy last night
> and realized that I grew up more on greek mythology than
> judeo-christian. Not to say that I'm really knowledgeable
> about greek mythology either, but it was just an
> interesting self observation.

Tiff and I watched that recently... Still haven't seen Alexander
yet... We liked it. They gave Brad some really good lines. When he
wasn't dragging corpses through the dirt. ;P I remember a friend of
mine (who got his Bachelors in English in Rome with the intent of
entering the seminary to become an eastern orthodox priest) who'd read
a lot more history than I have that the word the Greeks used to
describe Achilles' anger doesn't have an english equivalent, and that
it was normally reserved for attribution to the gods (like "hubris"
describes conceit but only when a person believes their skills to be
superior to those of a god)... Basically that human beings weren't
capable of that much anger -- with the exception of Achilles. :P

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

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---
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:in...@turnkey.to]

>> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:13 PM
>> To: CF-Community
>> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>>

>> > Before the smackdown: eight legged.
>>
>> > On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> six legged horses
>>

>> Hey... do you have any recommendations for researching
>> Norse mythology? Books, sites, etc?

> How about the "Legends and Lore" Dungeons and Dragons
> book?

> You not only get their names and pictures but their hit
> points and saves-vrs-fire as well! ;^)

Thanks Jim. :)

I used to have a copy of the original Deities and Demigods actually...
They're worth a little money now... not much, but some...

(I heard TSR got sued for using the Elric pantheon without permission
for that book, because unlike most mythologies which are public
domain, most of Elric was invented by the author. I was never a fan, I
just thought it was interesting.)

And who wouldn't want to know how many times out of 20 Thor could
resist being poisoned? :P

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163141
---
Ents aren't "trees come alive" any more than we're "monkeys who shaved".
Ents are the guardians of the trees, and spirits of the woods, rather
than being trees themselves. Which also means that there are plenty of
trees which aren't Ents. Normally, you don't see them. They live
quietly in deep forests, and only come out when the forest is
threatened. Usually, this means that they're like Smokey the Bear, only
not as polite, but in this case, Saruman was threatening the wood, so
they came out. It was an unprecedented event.

Seriously? Read the books, and it makes a bit more sense.

--Ben

G wrote:
> I don't know.....perhaps it has to do with the fact that I can't look out
> the front window of my house and see hobbits, elves, etc.....but I can look
> out and see plenty of trees....and they aint marchin ta war.
>
> It's probably not a good reason, but I just can't help but feeling cheated
> somehow when the trees suddenly come alive and do battle....
>
>
>>I guess I'm just trying to figure out why you had a problem with Ents,
>>but not hobbits, elves, Sauron, Gandalf, etc.
>>
>>Personally, I can no longer suspend disbelief whenever the characters in
>>a musical break into song. :-)
>>
>>--Ben
>>
>
>
>
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163146
---
Thanks guys. :)

> Long Dark Teatime of the Soul has a great take on Norse
> Mythology btw...
> of course being Douglas Adams it isn't what you want to
> learn more
> about the original myths.

> Try these
> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/mythology.html
> http://www.luth.se/luth/present/sweden/history/gods/Old_no
> rse_myth.html


> On 7/6/05, Paul Ihrig <pih...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> if your looking for a good book on mythology find a nice
>> translation of the Eddas

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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163150
---

> I don't know.....perhaps it has to do with the fact that I
> can't look out the front window of my house and see hobbits,
> elves, etc.....but I can look out and see plenty of trees
> ....and they aint marchin ta war.

> It's probably not a good reason, but I just can't help but
> feeling cheated somehow when the trees suddenly come alive
> and do battle....

There's a dwarf working at the Taco Bell down the street from me and
she doesn't have a beard. :)

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
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> Personally, I can no longer suspend disbelief whenever the
> characters in a musical break into song. :-)

Why's that? You know, I find that nothing really diffuses a difficult
situation quite like a suddenly improvised ditty (with the requisite
backup band standing by of course).

Oh Ben, Oh benny boy! Why can't you see the joy, oh the joy in singing
in the face of ...

Oh nevermind... :P

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
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---
G

You may have some legitimate complaints, that without reading the book, you don't have the rest of the story that fills in the gaps. The trees don't just come to life and go off to war. Not all trees are Ents. I guess one should say that Ents are just a race of beings that happen to look like trees. They live very long lives like trees, possible millennia.

What I disliked most about the Ent segment in the movie was that they where "tricked" by the hobbits to attack Isengaurd(sp). I much preferred the books handling that the decision of the Ent council was to go to war and they raised their army of Ents and (?????) a word for Ents that had retreated from the world into being nearly true trees. This army then came to the aid of the siege of Helms Deep and laid siege to Isengaurd(sp).

I also found it interesting that in the movie the Ents broke a dam created by the orks to flood the fortress. In the book, the Ents dammed the river themselves in order to release it on the fortress.

--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

....-----Original Message-----
....From: G [mailto:brian...@si-intl-kc.com]
....Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:24 AM
....To: CF-Community
....Subject: Re: [QUARRANTINE]Re: The Ents are going to war.
....
....I don't know.....perhaps it has to do with the fact that I can't look out
....the front window of my house and see hobbits, elves, etc.....but I can
....look
....out and see plenty of trees....and they aint marchin ta war.
....
....It's probably not a good reason, but I just can't help but feeling
....cheated
....somehow when the trees suddenly come alive and do battle....
....
....>I guess I'm just trying to figure out why you had a problem with Ents,
....> but not hobbits, elves, Sauron, Gandalf, etc.
....>
....> Personally, I can no longer suspend disbelief whenever the characters
....in
....> a musical break into song. :-)
....>
....> --Ben
....>
....
....
....
....

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---
Jim Davis wrote:
> Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom, you
> know. Last march of the Ents and all.

Are you talking about the recent Victor Davis Hanson essay, or something
else...?

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson121004.html



jd

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---

> When I first read it as a kid I couldn't understand why
> they just did not tie Frodo up with the ring, then using
> an eagle, dive bomb him into the Cracks of Doom. As for
> using an army to ge the ring to Mt. Doom, there's a lot
> to be said about inconspicuousness.

I think it was that issue of inconspicuousness... I didn't get the
impression that it was common for eagles to fly into Mordor and pass
over Mt. Doom just for giggles, since Mordor was always described as a
nasty desolate place where the eagles likely wouldn't be finding food,
etc. (or if they did find food it wouldn't be food they'd want to
eat). Plus the armies of Mordor would be likely to shoot and kill any
creature randomly flying toward Mt. Doom. It works at the end to pick
them up because by that point the ring is destroyed, Sauron is gone
and the armies of Mordor are decimated.

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
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---
But you have to admit lava coated flaming hobbits would look kinda cool.

larry

On 7/6/05, S. Isaac Dealey <in...@turnkey.to> wrote:

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---

Cooooding in the rain,
Just coooooding in the rain...
What a wonderfull feeling...
Oh, damn. My PC shorted out.

--Ben

S.Isaac Dealey wrote:
>>Personally, I can no longer suspend disbelief whenever the
>>characters in a musical break into song. :-)
>
> Why's that? You know, I find that nothing really diffuses a difficult
> situation quite like a suddenly improvised ditty (with the requisite
> backup band standing by of course).

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163206
---

How bad would it be for your entire airforce to get eaten by Nazgul Mounts?

--Ben

S.Isaac Dealey wrote:
>>When I first read it as a kid I couldn't understand why
>>they just did not tie Frodo up with the ring, then using
>>an eagle, dive bomb him into the Cracks of Doom. As for
>>using an army to ge the ring to Mt. Doom, there's a lot
>>to be said about inconspicuousness.
>
>
> I think it was that issue of inconspicuousness... I didn't get the
> impression that it was common for eagles to fly into Mordor and pass
> over Mt. Doom just for giggles, since Mordor was always described as a
> nasty desolate place where the eagles likely wouldn't be finding food,
> etc. (or if they did find food it wouldn't be food they'd want to
> eat). Plus the armies of Mordor would be likely to shoot and kill any
> creature randomly flying toward Mt. Doom. It works at the end to pick
> them up because by that point the ring is destroyed, Sauron is gone
> and the armies of Mordor are decimated.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

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---
> But you have to admit lava coated flaming hobbits would
> look kinda cool.

Sounds to me like it'd look painful. :P

Speaking of flaming things... I was disappointed with the death of the
Witch King in Return of the King... I was really hoping for something
more like the animated rendition.

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The Rankin and Bass butchery you mean?

larry

On 7/6/05, S. Isaac Dealey <in...@turnkey.to> wrote:

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163216
---

Yes... but not because they butchered it... I just thought their death
of the Witch King was interesting and exciting... by comparison the
same scene in the latest movie was short and dull with played-out cgi
animation, after having included the foreshadowing to build it up.
"They say no man can kill him..." ... "I'm no man!"... ("oh this is
going to be good!")... "Oh... that was low-rent." ...

I guess anticlimax is really my complaint about it...

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---
Fortunately something else. That essay was just odd.

On 7/6/05, John Dowdell <jdow...@macromedia.com> wrote:
> Are you talking about the recent Victor Davis Hanson essay, or something
> else...?
>
> http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson121004.html
>
>
>
> jd
>
>
>
>

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---
Its been so long since I saw that. While they did an almost reasonable
job on the Hobbit, I was genuinely angry with what they did to Return
of the King. The only way they could have made it worse was to have a
trio of singing dwarf transvestites and a group of S & M elves along
with Frodo.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

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---
"Where there's a whip [ch-krack!], there is a way."

On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Its been so long since I saw that. While they did an almost reasonable
> job on the Hobbit, I was genuinely angry with what they did to Return
> of the King. The only way they could have made it worse was to have a
> trio of singing dwarf transvestites and a group of S & M elves along
> with Frodo.
>
> larry

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---
Given that most of Hollywood's depiction of fantasy adventure is a
matter of skimpy leather and metal, its not much of a stretch.

But I'm definatley not going to be able to watch that scene from the
Ranking and Bass version of the Hobbit without thinking about "Where

there's a whip [ch-krack!], there is a way."

larry

On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Where there's a whip [ch-krack!], there is a way."
>
> On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Its been so long since I saw that. While they did an almost reasonable
> > job on the Hobbit, I was genuinely angry with what they did to Return
> > of the King. The only way they could have made it worse was to have a
> > trio of singing dwarf transvestites and a group of S & M elves along
> > with Frodo.
> >
> > larry
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163227
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I wasn't joking. You don't remember the song? It was in the Return of the King.

On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Given that most of Hollywood's depiction of fantasy adventure is a
> matter of skimpy leather and metal, its not much of a stretch.
>
> But I'm definatley not going to be able to watch that scene from the
> Ranking and Bass version of the Hobbit without thinking about "Where
> there's a whip [ch-krack!], there is a way."
>
> larry

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163229
---
I thought it was the sequence in the Hobbit - when Bilbo is captured
by the Orcs.

larry

On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wasn't joking. You don't remember the song? It was in the Return of the King.
>
> On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Given that most of Hollywood's depiction of fantasy adventure is a
> > matter of skimpy leather and metal, its not much of a stretch.
> >
> > But I'm definatley not going to be able to watch that scene from the
> > Ranking and Bass version of the Hobbit without thinking about "Where
> > there's a whip [ch-krack!], there is a way."
> >
> > larry
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163238
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RotK after Samwise The Strong (song) rescues Frodo Of The Nine Fingers
And The Ring Of Doom (song) from the Orc stronghold and they're
disguised as Orcs. They're trying to cross to Mt. Doom and get caught
in an orc marching column that starts singing. [ch-krack!]

On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought it was the sequence in the Hobbit - when Bilbo is captured
> by the Orcs.
>
> larry

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163242
---
GREAT MOVIE!

time bandits.

On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/6/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:04 PM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
> > >
> > > Heretic. Burn him.
> > >
> > > As for the Scouring of the Shire, as far as I am concerned that should
> > > have been done, at least to show how much the four hobbits had grown
> > > (literally and metaphorically). Also there's something to be said
> > > about watching little people beat the crap out of each other. (Bet you
> > > can't get that reference Jim ;). It also provides a good denouement
> > > for the trilogy, and wraps things up in a way that was believable and
> > > simply worked very well.
> >
> > No... I'm lost with the reference. ;^)
>
> Time Bandits.

This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163260
---
Some supreme being. Look at the job he did.

I'd have started with lasers, day 1! Zap! Ow! Sorry...

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

add features without fixtures with
the onTap open source framework

http://www.fusiontap.com
http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm

Flash for programmers - Flash MX Pro
http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=56

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163285
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please don't make me watch that horrid animation again. The animation
quality was barely marginal, even for Rankin and Bass. I don't want to
have to suffer again.

larry

On 7/6/05, Kevin Graeme <kgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> RotK after Samwise The Strong (song) rescues Frodo Of The Nine Fingers
> And The Ring Of Doom (song) from the Orc stronghold and they're
> disguised as Orcs. They're trying to cross to Mt. Doom and get caught
> in an orc marching column that starts singing. [ch-krack!]
>
> On 7/6/05, Larry C. Lyons <larry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I thought it was the sequence in the Hobbit - when Bilbo is captured
> > by the Orcs.
> >
> > larry
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163306
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Dowdell [mailto:jdow...@macromedia.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:25 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> Jim Davis wrote:
> > Just thought I'd mention it. It's likely that they go to their doom,
> you
> > know. Last march of the Ents and all.
>
> Are you talking about the recent Victor Davis Hanson essay, or something
> else...?
>
> http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson121004.html

Never heard of Victor Davis Hansen, so no. ;^)

I just watching "The Two Towers" and made a flippant, substance-less post
that has blossomed. (I'm so proud... I feel like "Forrest Gump".)

Jim Davis

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163307
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]

> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:51 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> Its been so long since I saw that. While they did an almost reasonable
> job on the Hobbit, I was genuinely angry with what they did to Return
> of the King. The only way they could have made it worse was to have a
> trio of singing dwarf transvestites and a group of S & M elves along
> with Frodo.

Yeah... it was horrible.

But I have a soft spot in my heart for the Bakshi version of "Lord of the
Rings" (although it was never finished).

I actually thought that several of the Bakshi scenes were better played than
the Jackson scenes... Jackson just never could lay off the effects in
certain scenes.

Jim Davis

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163308
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Weeg [mailto:tony...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:45 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> GREAT MOVIE!
>
> time bandits.

Yeah... I really should have gotten the reference. It's one of my favorite
flicks.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163322
---

Agreed, but he was never able to get the funding to continue. Mind you
given what I've heard from many artists, like the Pini's of ElfQuest,
they would not work with Bakshi if he were the last animator alive.
Apparently he's very difficult to work with. When Frank Frazetta
worked with Bakshi on Fire and Ice, the movie was an artistic success
but it was nearly a disaster in terms of everything else.

larry

On 7/6/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163419
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:44 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> Agreed, but he was never able to get the funding to continue. Mind you
> given what I've heard from many artists, like the Pini's of ElfQuest,
> they would not work with Bakshi if he were the last animator alive.
> Apparently he's very difficult to work with. When Frank Frazetta
> worked with Bakshi on Fire and Ice, the movie was an artistic success
> but it was nearly a disaster in terms of everything else.

Yeah... he's a loon, no doubt. But he does get results. ;^)

I only had the privilege of meeting the Pini's once at a show. The guy in
line ahead of me had a stack of "ElfQuest" collections about 35 high and was
REALLY freaky. He kept telling me how he drive past Poughkeepsie every day
and said "there's Elfland!!!" Really rabid.

I just had the coupla of "Beauty and the Beast" graphic novels they did (so
kill me, I liked "Beauty and the Beast" and I'm a big girl). I saw then
later: we were both in line getting something to eat and we had a nice, but
short conversation about their fanatical fan base. ;^)

It was that same show (the Ramapo high school show... which attracts, or at
least used to, TONS of artists) that I met Berni Wrightson for the first
time as well. We had a tense conversation about the "Captain Stern" short
in "Heavy Metal". He was (I think correct in) thinking that the whole movie
was a pile of stinking crap... but I still liked "Captain Stern".

He did a mini-series with the character sometime later. I'm still convinced
that "Zap Branigin", despite his clear Kirk influence, also had some Captain
Stern in him.

Wrightson was always a favorite - a guy in high school was pretty close to
him through his mother and would bring unfinished work of his into art
class. I was sooooo jealous.

He (his name was Django Zaloom) was also the nephew of Paul Zaloom who was
"Beakman" of the incredible kids science show "Beakman's World".

Ah... memories.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163474
---

On 7/7/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:44 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
> >
> > Agreed, but he was never able to get the funding to continue. Mind you
> > given what I've heard from many artists, like the Pini's of ElfQuest,
> > they would not work with Bakshi if he were the last animator alive.
> > Apparently he's very difficult to work with. When Frank Frazetta
> > worked with Bakshi on Fire and Ice, the movie was an artistic success
> > but it was nearly a disaster in terms of everything else.
>
> Yeah... he's a loon, no doubt. But he does get results. ;^)

Given how his last few films have done, think of Cool World", does he
get results?

>
> I only had the privilege of meeting the Pini's once at a show. The guy in
> line ahead of me had a stack of "ElfQuest" collections about 35 high and was
> REALLY freaky. He kept telling me how he drive past Poughkeepsie every day
> and said "there's Elfland!!!" Really rabid.

They are quite scary people. Fanaticism doesn't apply - its too mild a
term. These people don't wear plastic vulcan ears, they have plastic
surgery to change their ears to loko like the EQ elves.

>
> I just had the coupla of "Beauty and the Beast" graphic novels they did (so
> kill me, I liked "Beauty and the Beast" and I'm a big girl). I saw then
> later: we were both in line getting something to eat and we had a nice, but
> short conversation about their fanatical fan base. ;^)
>
> It was that same show (the Ramapo high school show... which attracts, or at
> least used to, TONS of artists) that I met Berni Wrightson for the first
> time as well. We had a tense conversation about the "Captain Stern" short
> in "Heavy Metal". He was (I think correct in) thinking that the whole movie
> was a pile of stinking crap... but I still liked "Captain Stern".
>
> He did a mini-series with the character sometime later. I'm still convinced
> that "Zap Branigin", despite his clear Kirk influence, also had some Captain
> Stern in him.

I thought I was one of the few people who knew what and who Captain
Stern was - I don't know Wendy did it but 4 years ago she got me the
complete series for my birthday.


larry

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163504
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:08 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>
> On 7/7/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:44 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
> > >
> > > Agreed, but he was never able to get the funding to continue. Mind you
> > > given what I've heard from many artists, like the Pini's of ElfQuest,
> > > they would not work with Bakshi if he were the last animator alive.
> > > Apparently he's very difficult to work with. When Frank Frazetta
> > > worked with Bakshi on Fire and Ice, the movie was an artistic success
> > > but it was nearly a disaster in terms of everything else.
> >
> > Yeah... he's a loon, no doubt. But he does get results. ;^)
>
> Given how his last few films have done, think of Cool World", does he
> get results?

Well - okay... he used to get results... sometimes. ;^)

I didn't HATE "Cool World" like some people did... but lordy it wasn't
"good". Still - he hasn't been doing much of anything lately so it's hard
to say if he'll have a "comeback" or not.

I think my favorite movie of his is "American Pop"... not as experimental
(or goofy) as "Wizards" or "Coonskin" but a good, interesting story. "Fritz
the Cat" made him (in)famous but I always found it to be a little immature
(although there were gems in there).

> > I only had the privilege of meeting the Pini's once at a show. The guy
> in
> > line ahead of me had a stack of "ElfQuest" collections about 35 high and
> was
> > REALLY freaky. He kept telling me how he drive past Poughkeepsie every
> day
> > and said "there's Elfland!!!" Really rabid.
>
> They are quite scary people. Fanaticism doesn't apply - its too mild a
> term. These people don't wear plastic vulcan ears, they have plastic
> surgery to change their ears to loko like the EQ elves.

Yeah... in the short conversation I had with the Pini's you could tell they
were really conflicted about their fans.

I suppose it's like an actor getting typecast into a beloved role. "Mixed
Blessing" doesn't seem to cover it.

> > He did a mini-series with the character sometime later. I'm still
> convinced
> > that "Zap Branigin", despite his clear Kirk influence, also had some
> Captain
> > Stern in him.
>
> I thought I was one of the few people who knew what and who Captain
> Stern was - I don't know Wendy did it but 4 years ago she got me the
> complete series for my birthday.

I'm a big Wrightson Fan. I got (an unfortunately really poor copy) of
"Swamp Thing" number one and number one of "Batman: The Cult" signed at that
show.

I've heard that he's got a serious fight with arthritis... too bad.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163550
---
answers inline as usual.

My problem with Cool World, aside from the writing etc., was that it
came out so close to Roger Rabbit - so for many it seemed that it was
an attempt to capitalize on the other movie's success.

As for what he's doing now, the IMDB lists Last Days of Coney Island.
No idea whether its live action or animation though.

>
> I think my favorite movie of his is "American Pop"... not as experimental
> (or goofy) as "Wizards" or "Coonskin" but a good, interesting story. "Fritz
> the Cat" made him (in)famous but I always found it to be a little immature
> (although there were gems in there).

The sequel was just as immature, but still interesting. I'm not
familiar with Coonskin.
[snip]

>
> Yeah... in the short conversation I had with the Pini's you could tell they
> were really conflicted about their fans.
>
> I suppose it's like an actor getting typecast into a beloved role. "Mixed
> Blessing" doesn't seem to cover it.

I don't blame them, given fan reactions I'd be living in a compound
surrounded by razer wire and armed guards.

>
> > > He did a mini-series with the character sometime later. I'm still
> > convinced
> > > that "Zap Branigin", despite his clear Kirk influence, also had some
> > Captain
> > > Stern in him.
> >
> > I thought I was one of the few people who knew what and who Captain
> > Stern was - I don't know Wendy did it but 4 years ago she got me the
> > complete series for my birthday.
>
> I'm a big Wrightson Fan. I got (an unfortunately really poor copy) of
> "Swamp Thing" number one and number one of "Batman: The Cult" signed at that
> show.
>
> I've heard that he's got a serious fight with arthritis... too bad.

That is definately too bad, he's a very good SF illustrator.

larry

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163565
---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 4:02 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> answers inline as usual.

Yeah... this is getting confusing. ;^)

> > Well - okay... he used to get results... sometimes. ;^)
> >
> > I didn't HATE "Cool World" like some people did... but lordy it wasn't
> > "good". Still - he hasn't been doing much of anything lately so it's
> hard
> > to say if he'll have a "comeback" or not.
>
> My problem with Cool World, aside from the writing etc., was that it
> came out so close to Roger Rabbit - so for many it seemed that it was
> an attempt to capitalize on the other movie's success.
>
> As for what he's doing now, the IMDB lists Last Days of Coney Island.
> No idea whether its live action or animation though.

Yeah... I've never heard of it either. The last I saw him he was doing a
really bad sketch on the new "Ren and Stimpy" show. It was really sad.

> > I think my favorite movie of his is "American Pop"... not as
> experimental
> > (or goofy) as "Wizards" or "Coonskin" but a good, interesting story.
> "Fritz
> > the Cat" made him (in)famous but I always found it to be a little
> immature
> > (although there were gems in there).
>
> The sequel was just as immature, but still interesting. I'm not
> familiar with Coonskin.
> [snip]

It was good (the title scared some distributors so it was released as
"Street Fight" later). It anthropomorphized inner-city gang warfare. It
was written with (and starred) Scat Man Cruthers and focused on a young
black man (well... bunny) who, in twisted kind of Brer Rabbit stories faces
systemic racism and sterotypes.

The characters are complete parodies of those stereotypes and the film is
probably one of his most misunderstood (well... most misunderstood of those
that actually made any sense at all).

> > Yeah... in the short conversation I had with the Pini's you could tell

> > were really conflicted about their fans.
> > I suppose it's like an actor getting typecast into a beloved role.
> "Mixed
> > Blessing" doesn't seem to cover it.
>
> I don't blame them, given fan reactions I'd be living in a compound
> surrounded by razer wire and armed guards.

Have you ever been to Poughkeepsie? ;^)

> > > I thought I was one of the few people who knew what and who Captain
> > > Stern was - I don't know Wendy did it but 4 years ago she got me the
> > > complete series for my birthday.
> >
> > I'm a big Wrightson Fan. I got (an unfortunately really poor copy) of
> > "Swamp Thing" number one and number one of "Batman: The Cult" signed at
> that
> > show.
> >
> > I've heard that he's got a serious fight with arthritis... too bad.
>
> That is definately too bad, he's a very good SF illustrator.

Yeah... and his most impressive work is so freakin' detail oriented. The
pen-and-ink plates for "Frankenstein" for example clearly took months of
incredibly steady-handed detail work.

Jim Davis

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163576
---
major snippage forthcoming.

On 7/7/05, Jim Davis <HOFL...@depressedpress.com> wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Larry C. Lyons [mailto:larry...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 4:02 PM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: The Ents are going to war.
>

> Yeah... I've never heard of it either. The last I saw him he was doing a
> really bad sketch on the new "Ren and Stimpy" show. It was really sad.

Given that the artwork on Ren and Stimpy was not all that good, you're
right it is sad. Then again given that he produced the animated
Spiderman series from the 70's I'm not surprised.

>
> > > I think my favorite movie of his is "American Pop"... not as
> > experimental
> > > (or goofy) as "Wizards" or "Coonskin" but a good, interesting story.
> > "Fritz
> > > the Cat" made him (in)famous but I always found it to be a little
> > immature
> > > (although there were gems in there).
> >
> > The sequel was just as immature, but still interesting. I'm not
> > familiar with Coonskin.
> > [snip]
>
> It was good (the title scared some distributors so it was released as
> "Street Fight" later). It anthropomorphized inner-city gang warfare. It
> was written with (and starred) Scat Man Cruthers and focused on a young
> black man (well... bunny) who, in twisted kind of Brer Rabbit stories faces
> systemic racism and sterotypes.
>
> The characters are complete parodies of those stereotypes and the film is
> probably one of his most misunderstood (well... most misunderstood of those
> that actually made any sense at all).

I sort of remember hearing about it, did not see it though. Now if I
stumble over it in the cheap $5 discount bin, I may pick it up.

>
> > I don't blame them, given fan reactions I'd be living in a compound
> > surrounded by razer wire and armed guards.
>
> Have you ever been to Poughkeepsie? ;^)

Nope - the only reason I've ever been to New Jersey is we drove to New
York, and had to go through New Jersey.

>
> > That is definately too bad, he's a very good SF illustrator.
>
> Yeah... and his most impressive work is so freakin' detail oriented. The
> pen-and-ink plates for "Frankenstein" for example clearly took months of
> incredibly steady-handed detail work.
>

Yes I've seen repros of those in one of his illustration books. He's a
very good artist, I'd hat to see his talent lost to arthritis

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:163765
---
>Hey... do you have any recommendations for researching Norse
>mythology? Books, sites, etc?
>

If you want fiction based upon Norse mythology, try David Drake's Northworld Trilogy. It is based upon the events and mythology of the Greater (Elder) and Lesser Edda. He, unlike Tolkein, based most of his stories on allegory.

Russel