RE: speaking of

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162384
---
How dare we listen to Donald Rumsfeld instead of Colin Powell.. this should've been done and over a long time ago... finish the mission, stabilize Iraq (read: clean up the mess) and get the hell out of there.

If I was Kim Il Jung, I'd be aiming missiles at California, we don't have enough troops to wage a war on a second front.

Scott A. Stewart,
Web Application Developer

Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
Chantilly, VA 20151
Phone: (703) 995-1737
Fax: (703) 834-5527


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 03:10 pm
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of
Importance: Low

Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves against those
harmless insurgents that are only seeking peace on earth?

On 6/29/05, Dana wrote:
> He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
> sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
> Post summary btw.
>
> Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
> effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
> are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
> on Sept. 11, 2001.
>
> Dana



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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162367
---
Sad thing is that he's not kidding and lots of people eat up this pile of festering crap.

--- On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:56 PM, Dana scribed: ---

>
> He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
> sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
> Post summary btw.
>
> Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
> effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
> are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
> on Sept. 11, 2001.
>
> Dana

Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble
Ticket application

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162385
---

> Sam wrote:
> Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves

I share your outrage! After all we've got a homicidal maniac running
loose who murdered thousands of Americans as well as a looming debt
crisis.

I'm with you - America First!

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162386
---
Yeah! And how dare we keep prisoners in Cuba and and how 'bout those Mets?

On 6/29/05, SStewart wrote:
> How dare we listen to Donald Rumsfeld instead of Colin Powell.. this should've been done and over a long time ago... finish the mission, stabilize Iraq (read: clean up the mess) and get the hell out of there.
>
> If I was Kim Il Jung, I'd be aiming missiles at California, we don't have enough troops to wage a war on a second front.
>
> Scott A. Stewart,
> Web Application Developer

Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support
efficiency by 100%
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162387
---
You bring the smoke, I'll bring the mirrors..

--- On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 3:31 PM, Gruss Gott scribed: ---

>
>> Sam wrote:
>> Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves
>
> I share your outrage! After all we've got a homicidal maniac running
> loose who murdered thousands of Americans as well as a looming debt
> crisis.
>
> I'm with you - America First!
>
>

Get the mailserver that powers this list at
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162380
---

Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves against those
harmless insurgents that are only seeking peace on earth?

On 6/29/05, Dana wrote:

> He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
> sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
> Post summary btw.
>
> Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
> effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
> are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
> on Sept. 11, 2001.
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162365
---

He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
Post summary btw.

Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
on Sept. 11, 2001.

Dana

--
Nobody's laughing now
But you could always make me laugh out loud

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162373
---
Isn't that the same philosophy behind racial profiling?

> He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these
> people because they sort of resemble people who tried
> to kill us? This is a Washington Post summary btw.

> Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the
> Iraq war effort, using a prime-time address to argue
> that the Iraq insurgents are the same breed of Islamic
> terrorist that struck the United States on
> Sept. 11, 2001.

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

add features without fixtures with
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162372
---

>> Howie wrote:
>> Sad thing is that he's not kidding and lots of people eat
>> up this pile of festering crap.
>>

> Arrraaghhhh .... festering craaaapppp ...

Was this moment brought to us by the makers of Resident Evil?

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

add features without fixtures with
the onTap open source framework

http://www.fusiontap.com
http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162388
---

> Howie wrote:
> You bring the smoke, I'll bring the mirrors..
>

Already taken care of my patriotic friend!

The bombs in Iraq create PLENTY of smoke and dust and the shine off of
Cheney's head is better than a mirror. I know a guy who stared into
it for 10 minutes and he saw a debt-free America with a coherent
foreign policy.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162368
---

> Howie wrote:
> Sad thing is that he's not kidding and lots of people eat up this pile of festering crap.
>

Arrraaghhhh .... festering craaaapppp ...

Now there’s a better way to fax. eFax makes it possible to use your existing email account to send and receive faxes. Try eFax free.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162389
---
Yes the dept, you seem to throw that in every time:)

On 6/29/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves
>
> I share your outrage! After all we've got a homicidal maniac running
> loose who murdered thousands of Americans as well as a looming debt
> crisis.
>
> I'm with you - America First!

Purchase Studio MX with Flash Pro from House of Fusion, a Macromedia Authorized Affiliate and support the CF community.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162391
---
$320 Billion dollars (so far) for an unjust, unnecessary, illegal war;
Yes, the debt should be mentioned.

There were no links between Terrorists and the Iraqi government. Sadam
was an evil man no doubt, but not worthy of thousands of American lives
and billions of American dollars to oust him.

Not only were there no WMDs, there was never any credible evidence of
them.

Bush wanted to oust Sadam and he didn't care what the cost would be.

What has the war gained us?

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:44 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

Yes the dept, you seem to throw that in every time:)

On 6/29/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves
>
> I share your outrage! After all we've got a homicidal maniac running
> loose who murdered thousands of Americans as well as a looming debt
> crisis.
>
> I'm with you - America First!

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162392
---
If I was Kim Jong Il, i'd worry about helping the close to 40% of my
country's population who is unemployed. I'd be concerned about my total
isolation in the world, my record poverty levels, etc etc.....

Why he feels the need to arm-wrestle with the US, or why we even feel the
need to recognize their existence, is beyond me.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162396
---

> Sam wrote:
> Yes the dept, you seem to throw that in every time:)
>

I just hate paying for other people's liberal spending.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162397
---
'cause he's ronery, so ronery, so tired of being arone.....

(actually the man is certifiable)...

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162399
---

> Ken wrote:
> What has the war gained us?
>

Well, to be fair, we are rid of one of the world's bad men. The
question is at what cost:

1.) There's the monetary cost.
2.) There's the lives lost.
3.) We're recruiting and training thousands of terrorists many of whom
will become war-insane.
4.) We've created one of the world's largest urban warfare R&D depts.
The insurgents are learning new techniques, perfecting their bomb
making skills, etc.

When you add it all up the cost seems too high just to get rid of
Hussein. Sure he was bad, but he's not worth this. We should've
focused on Bin Laden first while slowly gaining support in the UN.
Once we had a Powell Doctrine (it was about 9 months away) then we
could've gone in and this would be the world's problem. And it would
be smaller because it would've been perceive as attacking the world,
not America.

As it is, it's just seen as attacking America and that draws recruits.
Not to mention Iran and North Korea are probably dumping millions
into our enemies pockets.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162402
---
Finally back on topic :)

In other words we're drawing them out and fighting them on our terms
rather than waiting for them to decide when and how to fight.
As Bush said they are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck

the United States on Sept. 11, 2001.

We didn't make them hate us but they do so let's deal with them.

On 6/29/05, Gruss Gott wrote:

> 3.) We're recruiting and training thousands of terrorists many of whom
> will become war-insane.
> 4.) We've created one of the world's largest urban warfare R&D depts.
> The insurgents are learning new techniques, perfecting their bomb
> making skills, etc.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162404
---
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp

On 6/29/05, Ken Ketsdever wrote:
> $320 Billion dollars (so far) for an unjust, unnecessary, illegal war;
> Yes, the debt should be mentioned.
>
> There were no links between Terrorists and the Iraqi government. Sadam
> was an evil man no doubt, but not worthy of thousands of American lives
> and billions of American dollars to oust him.
>
> Not only were there no WMDs, there was never any credible evidence of
> them.
>
> Bush wanted to oust Sadam and he didn't care what the cost would be.
>
> What has the war gained us?
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162406
---
Regardless, if we had followed the Powell doctrine, and hit Iraq with an overwhelming *international* force, this would all be over and our troops would be home.

Instead we follow the doctrine of a man (Rumsfeld)with no practical military experience, who's been at odds with the Joint Chiefs, the very people he should be taking his cues and advice from since day one.. Who has cost thousands of lives unecessisarily, and put the US Armed Forces in a Vietnam sized quagmire without any sensible plan for progression or completion.

Whether or not we should be there, IMO is irrelevant at this point. Define the mission, finish the mission expeditiously, and bring the fighting men and women home.

Scott A. Stewart,
Web Application Developer

Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
Chantilly, VA 20151
Phone: (703) 995-1737
Fax: (703) 834-5527


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 05:20 pm
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of
Importance: Low

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.6/33 - Release Date: 06/28/2005

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162407
---
Don't forget about the conflict of interest he has there....

SStewart wrote:
> Regardless, if we had followed the Powell doctrine, and hit Iraq with an overwhelming *international* force, this would all be over and our troops would be home.
>
> Instead we follow the doctrine of a man (Rumsfeld)with no practical military experience, who's been at odds with the Joint Chiefs, the very people he should be taking his cues and advice from since day one.. Who has cost thousands of lives unecessisarily, and put the US Armed Forces in a Vietnam sized quagmire without any sensible plan for progression or completion.
>
> Whether or not we should be there, IMO is irrelevant at this point. Define the mission, finish the mission expeditiously, and bring the fighting men and women home.
>
> Scott A. Stewart,
> Web Application Developer
>
> Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
> 14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
> Chantilly, VA 20151
> Phone: (703) 995-1737
> Fax: (703) 834-5527
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 05:20 pm
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: speaking of
> Importance: Low
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp
>
>
>

--

=================================================================
Ray Champagne - Senior Application Developer
CrystalVision Web Site Design and Internet Services
603.433.9559
www.crystalvision.org
=================================================================

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attached files) is CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the
person(s) named above. If you received this transmission in
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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162408
---
Has anyone actually ever been contacted by an unintended recipient of
an email per instructions similar to the ones below?

-Cameron

On 6/29/05, Ray Champagne <r...@cvwp.com> wrote:
> The information contained in this transmission (including any
> attached files) is CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the
> person(s) named above. If you received this transmission in
> error, please delete it from your system and notify us
> immediately. If you are not an intended recipient, please note
> that any use or dissemination of the information contained in this
> transmission (including any attached files) and the copying,
> printing, or retransmission of that information is strictly
> prohibited. You can notify us by return email or by phone at
> 603.433.9559.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162409
---
LOL...I have never even read that thing. Boss requires it to go out
with all emails. I try to drop it when posting to cftalk or cfcomm, but
I rarely remember. :)

Short answer, no, they haven't.

Seriously, I have no idea why we even have it. Seems like a silly waste
of time to me.

Cameron Childress wrote:
> Has anyone actually ever been contacted by an unintended recipient of
> an email per instructions similar to the ones below?
>
> -Cameron
>
> On 6/29/05, Ray Champagne <r...@cvwp.com> wrote:
>
>>The information contained in this transmission (including any
>>attached files) is CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the
>>person(s) named above. If you received this transmission in
>>error, please delete it from your system and notify us
>>immediately. If you are not an intended recipient, please note
>>that any use or dissemination of the information contained in this
>>transmission (including any attached files) and the copying,
>>printing, or retransmission of that information is strictly
>>prohibited. You can notify us by return email or by phone at
>>603.433.9559.
>
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162410
---
I say we all call the number at once!

I hate those stupid disclaimers. If the information it confidential, do not
post to an email discussion group. Once you do, I can google you ;-)

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162411
---
He's a witch! Burn him!

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162412
---
I'm no Lawyer, but it seems to me that by exclusion it explicitly
allows any intended recipient to the rights to "copying, printing, or
retransmission of that information"

What's that? I shouldn't have forwarded that private email to the
local newspaper? Says right here I can since I was the intended
recipient.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162413
---
I would like to know if this has been challenged in a court yet. I feel the disclaimer will fail miserably and then we can stop having them. Mine is appended by the company mail server, so I can't drop it if I wanted to.


--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender and
delete any copies of this message.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162414
---
You should add to your sig "All Confidentiality Notices below this
line are void".

-Cameron

On 6/29/05, Ian Skinner <ian.s...@bloodsource.org> wrote:
> I would like to know if this has been challenged in a court yet. I feel the disclaimer will fail miserably and then we can stop having them. Mine is appended by the company mail server, so I can't drop it if I wanted to.
>
>
> --------------
> Ian Skinner
> Web Programmer
> BloodSource
> www.BloodSource.org
> Sacramento, CA
>
> "C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
> - Cynthia Dunning
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
> attachments is for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact the sender and
> delete any copies of this message.
>
>
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162415
---
I agree. I have just set up a disclaimer on our servers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Confidentiality Notice: This message including all attachments is for the
use of anybody that wishes to use it. Any confidential and privileged
information may be posted on search engines, webblogs, and email discussion
lists. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is not
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, do not worry about it. It
is our mistake and we should pay the penalty for it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Skinner [mailto:ian.s...@bloodsource.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 3:05 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: RE: Email Disclaimers

I would like to know if this has been challenged in a court yet. I feel the
disclaimer will fail miserably and then we can stop having them. Mine is
appended by the company mail server, so I can't drop it if I wanted to.


--------------
Ian Skinner
Web Programmer
BloodSource
www.BloodSource.org
Sacramento, CA

"C code. C code run. Run code run. Please!"
- Cynthia Dunning

Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
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intended recipient, please contact the sender and
delete any copies of this message.

Get help! RoboHelp
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162417
---

> LOL...I have never even read that thing. Boss requires
> it to go out with all emails. I try to drop it when
> posting to cftalk or cfcomm, but I rarely remember. :)

> Short answer, no, they haven't.

> Seriously, I have no idea why we even have it.
> Seems like a silly waste of time to me.

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s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

add features without fixtures with
the onTap open source framework

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162418
---
(In my best Crocidile Dundee Voice)

That's not a Disclaimer!....
... That's a disclaimer

http://www.berryalumni.com/disclaim.cfm

-Cameron

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162419
---
It's simple, he's a raving f-ing lunatic.

>If I was Kim Jong Il, i'd worry about helping the close to 40% of my
>country's population who is unemployed. I'd be concerned about my total
>isolation in the world, my record poverty levels, etc etc.....
>
>Why he feels the need to arm-wrestle with the US, or why we even feel the
>need to recognize their existence, is beyond me.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162421
---
Do you mean the Weinberger doctrine?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/6/26/04646.shtml

Kennedy's 'Rummy' Attack Backfired

Sen. Ted Kennedy's attempt during Thursday's Armed Services Committee
hearings to embarrass Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld by calling on
him to resign over the "Iraq quagmire" got major TV and radio
coverage.

But what happened next wound up on the cutting room floor of most news
broadcasts.

At the hearing, Rumsfeld was flanked by three four-star generals. And
each one of them blew Kennedy's criticism out of the water.
According to quotes picked up by the Washington Times, Army Gen.
George Casey told the Massachusetts Democrat:

"As the commander in Iraq, I would like to put myself on the record,
Senator Kennedy, as saying that I also agree with the secretary that
to represent the situation in Iraq as a quagmire is a
misrepresentation of the facts. Senator, that is not a quagmire."

Next up was Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, Joint Chiefs chairman. He
told Kennedy: "It's clearly not a quagmire. ... The term has been used
loosely, and it's not accurate in my estimation."

Then the top commander in the region, Army Gen. John Abizaid, weighed
in, saying the last thing he wanted to see was a Rumsfeld resignation.

"When it comes to toughness and stick-to-itiveness and fighting the
enemy the way they need to be fought, I'm standing by the secretary,"
he pledged.

On 6/29/05, SStewart wrote:
> Regardless, if we had followed the Powell doctrine, and hit Iraq with an overwhelming *international* force, this would all be over and our troops would be home.
>
> Instead we follow the doctrine of a man (Rumsfeld)with no practical military experience, who's been at odds with the Joint Chiefs, the very people he should be taking his cues and advice from since day one.. Who has cost thousands of lives unecessisarily, and put the US Armed Forces in a Vietnam sized quagmire without any sensible plan for progression or completion.
>
> Whether or not we should be there, IMO is irrelevant at this point. Define the mission, finish the mission expeditiously, and bring the fighting men and women home.
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162420
---
ha ha i'm laughing.

he is saying let's kill these bastards before they kill us, because make no mistake, given the chance they will kill us, wipe out our civilization, and destroy everything we know and love. ironically, the people they would kill first are the liberal-minded people that defend them in this and other public spaces.

>He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
>sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
>Post summary btw.
>
>Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
>President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
>effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents

>are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
>on Sept. 11, 2001.
>

>Dana
>
>--
>Nobody's laughing now
>But you could always make me laugh out loud

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162425
---

> Robert Munn <r...@funkymojo.com> wrote:
> ironically, the people they would kill first are the liberal-minded people that defend them in this
> and other public spaces.
>
>

Nobody is defending terrorists, but they are taking exception to the
claim that Iraq is defending any Americans from anything. The logic
of "drawing them out" is foolish.

It's like saying to protect your house from robbers you're going to
fill your yard with brand new TVs, advertise to everyone that your
yard is full of new TVs, and then try to the arrest the criminals that
show up. That way none will get into your house. Do think that after
5 years your house would be statistically safer from robbery than
before you started? No. In fact it probably be worse.

It is the same with Iraq. By invading Iraq 90% alone we've painted a
big bull-eye on our troops and whenever they return we will be in just
as much danger, if not more, than before they left.

Getting Bin Laden, good, invading random dictatorships, bad.

Purchase Dreamweaver with Homesite Plus from House of Fusion, a Macromedia Authorized Affiliate and support the CF community.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162429

---
> (In my best Crocidile Dundee Voice)

> That's not a Disclaimer!....
> ... That's a disclaimer

> http://www.berryalumni.com/disclaim.cfm

> -Cameron

You have to love a disclaimer which includes the phrase
"electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts".

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

add features without fixtures with
the onTap open source framework

http://www.fusiontap.com
http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162430
---

> Robert wrote:
> ha ha i'm laughing.
>

> the liberal-minded people that defend them in this and other public spaces.
>

Nobody is defending terrorists, but they are taking exception to the
claim that Iraq is defending any Americans from anything. The logic
of "drawing them out" is foolish.

It's like saying to protect your house from robbers you're going to
fill your yard with brand new TVs, advertise to everyone that your
yard is full of new TVs, and then try to the arrest the criminals that
show up. That way none will get into your house. Do think that after
5 years your house would be statistically safer from robbery than
before you started? No. In fact it probably be worse.

It is the same with Iraq. By invading Iraq 90% alone we've painted a
big bull-eye on our troops and whenever they return we will be in just
as much danger, if not more, than before they left.

Getting Bin Laden, good, invading random dictatorships, bad.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162434
---

Cameron Childress wrote:
> Has anyone actually ever been contacted by an unintended recipient of
> an email per instructions similar to the ones below?

Every time I though I might have been an unintended recipient I checked the headers only to find out it was really addressed to me and it was not some mailserver mixup.

http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/list.html

Jochem

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162438
---
I saw the news broadcast of the hearings and saw exactly the scene you are
referring to. You completely left out this comment by Gen. John Abizaid:

"I believe there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were
six months ago."

Of course, it needs to be put in context:

"We see good progress in both Iraq and Afghanistan... But we are realistic.
And we know that great change is often accompanied with violence. We are not
trying to paint a rosy picture,"

But the fact remains that he is describing an event completely different
than Dick Cheney's version of Iraq: "I think they're in the last throes, if
you will, of the insurgency."


Matthew Small
Web Developer
American City Business Journals
704-973-1045
msm...@amcity.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:03 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162441
---
Reminds me of a company I worked at about 4 years ago. Someone and a local
Legal Firm was giving out our fax number to clients so 4-5 times a week we
got faxes intended for the law firm.

For the first couple of months we phoned them every time, after that we gave
up and just started reading them ;-)

--
Jay

> Has anyone actually ever been contacted by an unintended
> recipient of an email per instructions similar to the ones below?
>
> -Cameron
>
> On 6/29/05, Ray Champagne <r...@cvwp.com> wrote:
> > The information contained in this transmission (including
> any attached
> > files) is CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the
> > person(s) named above. If you received this transmission in error,
> > please delete it from your system and notify us immediately. If you
> > are not an intended recipient, please note that any use or
> > dissemination of the information contained in this transmission
> > (including any attached files) and the copying, printing, or
> > retransmission of that information is strictly prohibited. You can
> > notify us by return email or by phone at 603.433.9559.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162473
---
I suspect they are seeking to get us out of their country. Consider
the possibility that maybe they *are* the Iraqis hmm?

Dana

On 6/29/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves against those
> harmless insurgents that are only seeking peace on earth?
>
> On 6/29/05, Dana wrote:

> > He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
> > sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
> > Post summary btw.
> >
> > Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> > President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
> > effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
> > are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
> > on Sept. 11, 2001.
> >
> > Dana
>
>

Purchase Homesite Plus with Dreamweaver from House of Fusion, a Macromedia Authorized Affiliate and support the CF community.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162475
---
Very true. Apart from the morality of the war, there is the
opportunity cost. If anyone actually does attack us we will be very
vulnerable. I could get over an unjust war if it was at least
effective. What we have is a clusterfuck of the worst proportions.

Dana

On 6/29/05, SStewart <SSte...@ecslimited.com> wrote:
> How dare we listen to Donald Rumsfeld instead of Colin Powell.. this should've been done and over a long time ago... finish the mission, stabilize Iraq (read: clean up the mess) and get the hell out of there.
>
> If I was Kim Il Jung, I'd be aiming missiles at California, we don't have enough troops to wage a war on a second front.

>
> Scott A. Stewart,
> Web Application Developer
>
> Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
> 14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
> Chantilly, VA 20151
> Phone: (703) 995-1737
> Fax: (703) 834-5527
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 03:10 pm
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: speaking of

> Importance: Low
>
> Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves against those
> harmless insurgents that are only seeking peace on earth?
>
> On 6/29/05, Dana wrote:
> > He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
> > sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
> > Post summary btw.
> >
> > Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> > President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
> > effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
> > are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
> > on Sept. 11, 2001.
> >
> > Dana
>
>
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162476
---
the ones that hate us, I suspect, have good solid reason, like we
locked up Uncle Ahmed for two years. The ones that hate the US do so
because it has a history of imperialistic adventures to support its
own economic agenda, and this latest episode just validates that
perception, and it validates it whether it is true or NOT.

If those are *our* terms, lord help us all. Why would we pick terms
that make us look like the villain and allow guerrilla fighters the
advantage of their own terrain?

Dana

On 6/29/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Finally back on topic :)
>
> In other words we're drawing them out and fighting them on our terms
> rather than waiting for them to decide when and how to fight.
> As Bush said they are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck
> the United States on Sept. 11, 2001.
>
> We didn't make them hate us but they do so let's deal with them.
>
>
> On 6/29/05, Gruss Gott wrote:
> > 3.) We're recruiting and training thousands of terrorists many of whom
> > will become war-insane.
> > 4.) We've created one of the world's largest urban warfare R&D depts.
> > The insurgents are learning new techniques, perfecting their bomb
> > making skills, etc.
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162481
---
aha... now that does make a difference...

Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162487
---

> Dana wrote:
> If those are *our* terms, lord help us all. Why would we pick terms
> that make us look like the villain and allow guerrilla fighters the
> advantage of their own terrain?
>

The "draw them out" argument does not stand up to scrutiny, even if it
makes some type sense to someone.

All we're doing in Iraq is creating criminals of convenience. As I
said earlier, if you moved all of your expensive goods out onto your
lawn and advertised that they were there do you think you could lower
the crime rate in your state? You be foolish to think you would, but
please try.

The "draw them out" argument is clearly wrong. There are no fewer
terrorists with a global reach than before we invaded Iraq. Mr. Bin
Laden is still active, and certainly his operations are. His teams
will not hesitate to strike the US and are planning to do so now.
They have a history of waiting years between attacks and have already
struck overseas.

Invading Afgahnistan seriously hurt Al Qaeda, but invading Iraq helps
them because:

1.) It distracts the US from attacking Al Qaeda.
2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).
3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.
4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
and take them global.
5.) It depletes America's war chest.
6.) It demoralizes Americans.
7.) It demoralizes our troops.
8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
"fight them there" propaganda.
9.) It creates an enormous risk of CREATING another Afghanistan.
10.) Americans are dying 2 per day from criminals of convenience
rather than global terrorists.

I'm sure there's many more. It's great that Hussein is gone, but it's
not worth the cost, and we're not doing anything to inhibit global
terrorists - we're most likely helping them.

You cannot fight crime by "drawing them out" and you cannot fight
terrorists by "drawing them out".

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162494
---
erm, yes.

On 6/29/05, S. Isaac Dealey <in...@turnkey.to> wrote:

> Isn't that the same philosophy behind racial profiling?

>
> > He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these
> > people because they sort of resemble people who tried
> > to kill us? This is a Washington Post summary btw.
>
> > Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> > President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the
> > Iraq war effort, using a prime-time address to argue

> > that the Iraq insurgents are the same breed of Islamic

> > terrorist that struck the United States on
> > Sept. 11, 2001.
>
>

> s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
> new epoch : isn't it time for a change?
>
> add features without fixtures with
> the onTap open source framework
>
> http://www.fusiontap.com
> http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm
>
>
>
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162496
---

On 6/30/05, Matthew Small wrote:
> I saw the news broadcast of the hearings and saw exactly the scene you are
> referring to. You completely left out this comment by Gen. John Abizaid:

Yes, you are correct.
The hearing was eight hours long so I did leave out most of it :)
I was responding to "Instead we follow the doctrine of a man

(Rumsfeld)with no practical military experience, who's been at odds
with the Joint Chiefs, the very people he should be taking his cues
and advice from since day one"

Which has nothing to do with what Cheney said or Gen. John Abizaid's
response to what Cheney said, it was a different part of the hearing.

But in response to Scott's comment Gen. John Abizaid said,

"When it comes to toughness and stick-to-itiveness and fighting the
enemy the way they need to be fought, I'm standing by the secretary,"

Protect your mail server with built in anti-virus protection. It's not only good for you, it's good for everybody.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162501
---

You still think that's all they are is Freedom fighters trying to rid
there country of the evil occupiers?
They had an election you know? They have a military and police force
now, you know? Are they killing only Americans or are they killing
fellow Iraqis?

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> I suspect they are seeking to get us out of their country. Consider
> the possibility that maybe they *are* the Iraqis hmm?
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162502
---

Imperialistic adventures? Nonsense. They hate us because we allow
women to vote, drive, work and show their faces in public. We have the
freedoms to do and say what we want. They can't stand the fact that we
flaunt our freedoms and if we keep doing it eventually people will
rise against the Islamo-Fascist and demand their own freedoms. That's
why they think we need to be stopped.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> the ones that hate us, I suspect, have good solid reason, like we
> locked up Uncle Ahmed for two years. The ones that hate the US do so
> because it has a history of imperialistic adventures to support its
> own economic agenda, and this latest episode just validates that
> perception, and it validates it whether it is true or NOT.
>
> If those are *our* terms, lord help us all. Why would we pick terms
> that make us look like the villain and allow guerrilla fighters the
> advantage of their own terrain?
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162503
---
No it doesn't. Seperate topics.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> aha... now that does make a difference...
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162506
---

Ever hear of Howard Beach? Most people of color know not to even go
there, but occasionally a few people who haven't heard about it wonder
in. Some even think they can go there to steal a car.
Well the word is out again and it's not likely people will steal cars
or TV's in that town anytime soon. So you're analogy isn't a good one.

1.) It distracts the US from attacking Al Qaeda.

We never let up on al Qaeda.

2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).

I don't agree.

3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.

Doesn't every war? The difference is the terrorists are dying in this
training camp.

4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
and take them global.

Huh?

5.) It depletes America's war chest.

Helps us clean out the old tired weapons and build fresh ones :)

6.) It demoralizes Americans.
Only people like you do that.

7.) It demoralizes our troops.

Only people like you do that.

8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
"fight them there" propaganda.

As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and waiting?

9.) It creates an enormous risk of CREATING another Afghanistan.

They grow poppy in Iraq?

10.) Americans are dying 2 per day from criminals of convenience
rather than global terrorists.

You think the insurgents are just criminals and not global terrorists?

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162509

---
"Ever hear of Howard Beach? Most people of color know not to even go
there, but occasionally a few people who haven't heard about it wonder
in. Some even think they can go there to steal a car.
Well the word is out again and it's not likely people will steal cars
or TV's in that town anytime soon."

Sam, this statement speaks volumes about your line of reasoning and it's not good. I can only hope that racism didn't play a part in Chaney and Rumsfeld sending us off to war....

Scott A. Stewart,
Web Application Developer

Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
Chantilly, VA 20151
Phone: (703) 995-1737
Fax: (703) 834-5527

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 02:50 pm
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162513
---
Try to follow along, I was ripping holes in Gruss' silly analogy,
which has nothing to do with Iraq.

On 6/30/05, SStewart wrote:
> Sam, this statement speaks volumes about your line of reasoning and it's not good. I can only hope that racism didn't play a part in Chaney and Rumsfeld sending us off to war....

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162514
---
Right....

Scott A. Stewart,
Web Application Developer

Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
Chantilly, VA 20151
Phone: (703) 995-1737
Fax: (703) 834-5527


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 03:08 pm
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of
Importance: Low

Try to follow along, I was ripping holes in Gruss' silly analogy,
which has nothing to do with Iraq.

On 6/30/05, SStewart wrote:
> Sam, this statement speaks volumes about your line of reasoning and it's not good. I can only hope that racism didn't play a part in Chaney and Rumsfeld sending us off to war....

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162515
---

I consider there to be a difference between international terrorists and
insurgents trying to get an invading force out of their country. Had we
not invaded Iraq the insurgents would not exist. So if you are
considering insurgents to be terrorists then we have created a situation
that has resulted in the development of thousands of new terrorists.

They war in Afghanistan was against terrorist and was supported by most
Americans (myself included) and most of the world.

The invasion of Iraq was a personal vendetta of the Bush family that he
Bush jr. would do anything to justify, lie, cheat, fabricate evidence,
or skew facts to support policy rather than create policy to address the
facts.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:50 AM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162518
---

> Sam wrote:
> So you're analogy isn't a good one.
>

It still works great. To end crime in your city use the Bush
Doctrine: put a big pile of money in a park and arrest all of the
criminals that come to get it. Pretty soon no more criminals, right?

>
> 1.) It distracts the US from attacking Al Qaeda.
> We never let up on al Qaeda.

That's not what US Special Forces in Afghanistan said. They said they
troop strength was reduced by 90% and they lost equipment support.

>
> 2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).
> I don't agree.

Ok, but anyone that's actually studied the matter agrees with me.

>
> 3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.
> Doesn't every war? The difference is the terrorists are dying in this
> training camp.

Yes, the dumb ones die, are replaced by 2 more and the smart ones pass
along the technology to Bin Laden.

>
> 4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
> and take them global.
> Huh?

You throw a buch of guys into Bahgdad and some real leaders will
emerge. They'll be clever, motivated, well-trained, and battle
experienced. Now they're ready for the big leagues - attacking
America.

> 6.) It demoralizes Americans.
> Only people like you do that.
>

Wonderful! The Vietnam disease of shooting the messenger.

> 8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
> "fight them there" propaganda.
> As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and waiting?
>

No. As opposed to using our full military effort to attack the people
that attacked us - Al qaeda. You might as well dig a ditch as invade
Iraq. They are both equally effective at dismantling Al Qaeda.

> 10.) Americans are dying 2 per day from criminals of convenience
> rather than global terrorists.
> You think the insurgents are just criminals and not global terrorists?
>

yes. Do you have evidence otherwise?

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162519
---

Maybe, but the insurgency has turned on its own people. I think Hussein kept, through brutal means, the insurgency in check. Whether it'd been us or the UN getting Hussein out, the insurgency would've risen up.

What's going on in Iraq with regards to the insurgency is civil war, which would've erupted regardless of who toppled Saddam.

Scott A. Stewart,
Web Application Developer

Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
Chantilly, VA 20151
Phone: (703) 995-1737
Fax: (703) 834-5527


-----Original Message-----

or TV's in that town anytime soon. So you're analogy isn't a good one.

1.) It distracts the US from attacking Al Qaeda.
We never let up on al Qaeda.

2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).
I don't agree.

3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.
Doesn't every war? The difference is the terrorists are dying in this
training camp.

4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
and take them global.
Huh?

5.) It depletes America's war chest.
Helps us clean out the old tired weapons and build fresh ones :)

6.) It demoralizes Americans.
Only people like you do that.

7.) It demoralizes our troops.

Only people like you do that.

8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
"fight them there" propaganda.
As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and waiting?

9.) It creates an enormous risk of CREATING another Afghanistan.
They grow poppy in Iraq?

10.) Americans are dying 2 per day from criminals of convenience
rather than global terrorists.
You think the insurgents are just criminals and not global terrorists?

On 6/30/05, Gruss Gott wrote:

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162527
---
I agree! Only now we are responsible for it.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162529
---
And the problem is... what do we do about it.
We can't just pull up stakes and leave... We made this mess we need to clean it up. Someone in DC needs to come up with some concise answers.

We may just have our own little Civil War in Congress as Bush's own party starts to turn on him, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162533
---

On 6/30/05, Gruss Gott wrote:

> It still works great. To end crime in your city use the Bush
> Doctrine: put a big pile of money in a park and arrest all of the
> criminals that come to get it. Pretty soon no more criminals, right?

Or let people walk around carrying money and every time someone gets
mugged you arrest the mugger. Eventually the crime will be reduced.
Your analogies are to far off to be applied to Iraq.

> > 1.) It distracts the US from attacking Al Qaeda.
> > We never let up on al Qaeda.
>
> That's not what US Special Forces in Afghanistan said. They said they
> troop strength was reduced by 90% and they lost equipment support.

Are you passing around crap you heard in the bar as facts or do you
actually have a source this time:)
Do they need to be at the same levels they were at before the Taliban fell?

> >
> > 2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).
> > I don't agree.
>
> Ok, but anyone that's actually studied the matter agrees with me.

By studying do you really mean, "Believe the biased Pew polls"?

> > 3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.
> > Doesn't every war? The difference is the terrorists are dying in this
> > training camp.
>
> Yes, the dumb ones die, are replaced by 2 more and the smart ones pass
> along the technology to Bin Laden.

Are you saying that in war only the dumb ones die? That's an extremely
obnoxious thing to say and I hope you apologize for it.

> >
> > 4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
> > and take them global.
> > Huh?
>
> You throw a buch of guys into Bahgdad and some real leaders will
> emerge. They'll be clever, motivated, well-trained, and battle
> experienced. Now they're ready for the big leagues - attacking
> America.

Isn't that what every war does? Are you saying what they learn in
Baghdad will help them with terrorist attacks against the US?
Different battles and battlefields.

>
> > 6.) It demoralizes Americans.
> > Only people like you do that.
>
> Wonderful! The Vietnam disease of shooting the messenger.

We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda, Kerry
and people like you.

> > 8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
> > "fight them there" propaganda.
> > As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and waiting?
>
> No. As opposed to using our full military effort to attack the people
> that attacked us - Al qaeda. You might as well dig a ditch as invade
> Iraq. They are both equally effective at dismantling Al Qaeda.

If you only look for Bin Laden you will miss all the other terrorists.
Al Qeada is in Iraq, they had connections to Iraq and Iraq was a safe
haven for the terrorists.

> > 10.) Americans are dying 2 per day from criminals of convenience
> > rather than global terrorists.
> > You think the insurgents are just criminals and not global terrorists?
> yes. Do you have evidence otherwise?

Yes as Matt pointed out:

Gen. John Abizaid: "I believe there are more foreign fighters coming
into Iraq than there were six months ago."

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162540
---

> We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda, Kerry
> and people like you.

So fighting the war for the wrong reasons and with the wrong strategy
and misinterpreting and underestimating the strength of resolve of our
enemies had nothing at all to do with the outcome of Vietnam?

Puh-friggin'-lease

Sam, this is a particularly short-sited and over-simplified view out
_that_ particular conflict, even for you...

Oh and it started out as Eisenhower's war...and before that it was France's war.

--
will


"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true;
and that would just be unacceptable."
- Carrie Fisher

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162546
---
You have yoyur version and I have mine :)
Eisenhower sent over observers, Kennedy sent troops.

On 6/30/05, William Bowen wrote:
> > We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda, Kerry
> > and people like you.
>
> So fighting the war for the wrong reasons and with the wrong strategy
> and misinterpreting and underestimating the strength of resolve of our
> enemies had nothing at all to do with the outcome of Vietnam?
>
> Puh-friggin'-lease
>
> Sam, this is a particularly short-sited and over-simplified view out
> _that_ particular conflict, even for you...
>
> Oh and it started out as Eisenhower's war...and before that it was France's war.
>
> --
> will
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162552
---
So you'll stand by the Fonda and Kerry and people like Gruss lost the
war for us comment then?

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You have yoyur version and I have mine :)
> Eisenhower sent over observers, Kennedy sent troops.
>
> On 6/30/05, William Bowen wrote:
> > > We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda, Kerry
> > > and people like you.
> >
> > So fighting the war for the wrong reasons and with the wrong strategy
> > and misinterpreting and underestimating the strength of resolve of our
> > enemies had nothing at all to do with the outcome of Vietnam?
> >
> > Puh-friggin'-lease
> >
> > Sam, this is a particularly short-sited and over-simplified view out
> > _that_ particular conflict, even for you...
> >
> > Oh and it started out as Eisenhower's war...and before that it was France's war.
> >
> > --
> > will
> >
>
>

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162555
---
I think it's entirely possible that *they* think they are freedom
fighters, anyway. As for the election... well, they had one, yes, and
whether it was a fair election I dunno. All I am saying is that these
people did not wake up one morning and decide it would be a good idea
to be suicide bombers. There is a context there, whether you consider
it valid or not.

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You still think that's all they are is Freedom fighters trying to rid
> there country of the evil occupiers?
> They had an election you know? They have a military and police force
> now, you know? Are they killing only Americans or are they killing
> fellow Iraqis?
>
> On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> > I suspect they are seeking to get us out of their country. Consider
> > the possibility that maybe they *are* the Iraqis hmm?
> >
> > Dana
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162556
---

oh, BS. Some of the most fundamentalist may consider us decadent
because of this. This may even be bin Laden's reasoning, I don't know.
But all of those people don't hate us for our freedoms, no. You are
buying into the bushcrap again.

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Imperialistic adventures? Nonsense. They hate us because we allow
> women to vote, drive, work and show their faces in public. We have the
> freedoms to do and say what we want. They can't stand the fact that we
> flaunt our freedoms and if we keep doing it eventually people will
> rise against the Islamo-Fascist and demand their own freedoms. That's
> why they think we need to be stopped.
>
> On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> > the ones that hate us, I suspect, have good solid reason, like we
> > locked up Uncle Ahmed for two years. The ones that hate the US do so
> > because it has a history of imperialistic adventures to support its
> > own economic agenda, and this latest episode just validates that
> > perception, and it validates it whether it is true or NOT.
> >
> > If those are *our* terms, lord help us all. Why would we pick terms
> > that make us look like the villain and allow guerrilla fighters the
> > advantage of their own terrain?
> >
> > Dana
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162557
---

Hell Yes!

On 6/30/05, William Bowen wrote:
> So you'll stand by the Fonda and Kerry and people like Gruss lost the
> war for us comment then?
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162558
---
wow... didn't they kill a kid out there? And this justifies possibly
preventnig a car theft??

> Well the word is out again and it's not likely people will steal cars
> or TV's in that town anytime soon. So you're analogy isn't a good one.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162559
---
zactly. If the Iraqis had toppled him, this would have been a fight we
could have stayed out of.

Dana

On 6/30/05, Ken Ketsdever <ken.ke...@bloodsource.org> wrote:
> I agree! Only now we are responsible for it.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162560
---
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_suicide_missions_5
Most Suicide Bombs in Iraq by Foreigners

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> I think it's entirely possible that *they* think they are freedom
> fighters, anyway. As for the election... well, they had one, yes, and
> whether it was a fair election I dunno. All I am saying is that these
> people did not wake up one morning and decide it would be a good idea
> to be suicide bombers. There is a context there, whether you consider
> it valid or not.
>
> Dana

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162561
---
yes. I disagreed with this invasion from the start, but now that we
have invaded we really can't just leave...

Dana

On 6/30/05, SStewart <SSte...@ecslimited.com> wrote:
> And the problem is... what do we do about it.
> We can't just pull up stakes and leave... We made this mess we need to clean it up. Someone in DC needs to come up with some concise answers.
>
> We may just have our own little Civil War in Congress as Bush's own party starts to turn on him, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162562
---
and the French sent what exactly? I submit that maybe we all
lookedlike to them.

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162563
---
It doesn't justify anything. I'm totally against these racist neighborhoods.
It just sounded a lot like Gruss' analogy.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> wow... didn't they kill a kid out there? And this justifies possibly
> preventnig a car theft??
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162564
---
so? Did you ever read The Sun Also Rises?

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_suicide_missions_5
> Most Suicide Bombs in Iraq by Foreigners
>
> On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> > I think it's entirely possible that *they* think they are freedom
> > fighters, anyway. As for the election... well, they had one, yes, and
> > whether it was a fair election I dunno. All I am saying is that these
> > people did not wake up one morning and decide it would be a good idea
> > to be suicide bombers. There is a context there, whether you consider
> > it valid or not.
> >
> > Dana
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162567
---
ok. I'm glad I was misunderstanding you then. But it doesn't sound
much like Gruss' analogy to me.

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162568
---
No, but thanks for asking.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> so? Did you ever read The Sun Also Rises?
>
> Dana
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162570
---
sorry, I meant For Whom the Bell Tolls. My point is that a foreign
freedom fighter is not by definition a terrorist, unless your
definition of terrorist includes "all people who disagree with me."

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162571
---
I guess it's a little stretch but I was thinking of the theft aspect
not the racist part. This just happened to be racist.
In Howard Beach or Carol Gardens or any other "connected" neighborhood
in NY or NJ you don't steal from or cause trouble no matter what race
or color you are.
They can leave TV's on their front lawns and nobody will steal them.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> ok. I'm glad I was misunderstanding you then. But it doesn't sound
> much like Gruss' analogy to me.
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162573
---
Yes, their freedom to rule the world, enslave women and slaughter
people at will, especially the non-believers. My bad.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> sorry, I meant For Whom the Bell Tolls. My point is that a foreign
> freedom fighter is not by definition a terrorist, unless your
> definition of terrorist includes "all people who disagree with me."
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162574
---
huh? That particular book is about an American who helps out in the
Spanish Civil War. Hemingway.

As to your comments... Iraqis are not doing so well at ruling the
world. They aren't doing very well at ruling Iraq :) In Afghanistan, I
have heard that Karzai is essentially president of Iraq. And that was
a right-wing talk show host who said that, probably your kind of guy.

Dana

On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, their freedom to rule the world, enslave women and slaughter
> people at will, especially the non-believers. My bad.
>
> On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> > sorry, I meant For Whom the Bell Tolls. My point is that a foreign
> > freedom fighter is not by definition a terrorist, unless your
> > definition of terrorist includes "all people who disagree with me."
> >
> > Dana
>
>

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162575
---
.... hey wait... I sense... somewhere in the world... someone is ...
HAVING FUN! ... this cannot be allowed! This must be stopped at all
costs! I must KILL MYSELF in a valiant bombing of a discoteque to stop
this!

For the record, I don't think the mere existence of the US causes a
burning fear of violent revolution in their leaders either. We're not
talking about a country full of liberated people who are used to being
able to mostly say and do what they want (financial limits not
withstanding) who are then suddenly subjugated by a foreign
dictatorship which takes those priviledges away. The people who live
in these countries have a completely different thought-world. Sure
they may have daydreams of what it's like to live in the US and
bringing that to their country, but to most of them that vision is no
more concrete or real than a vision of homelessness is to one of our
country's economic elite. It's not the sort of thing they generally
consider within the realm of possibility. Even if they did, many of
them don't even want it -- why do you think there are islamic women
who come here and continue to live with those traditions in spite of
being free to shed them? Making the claim that they live in fear of a
revolution because the US exists is like making the claim that
Americans are afraid of alien invasion because of the recent remake of
War of the Worlds.

> oh, BS. Some of the most fundamentalist may
> consider us decadent because of this. This may even
> be bin Laden's reasoning, I don't know. But all of
> those people don't hate us for our freedoms, no.
> You are buying into the bushcrap again.

> Dana

> On 6/30/05, Sam <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Imperialistic adventures? Nonsense. They hate us
>> because we allow women to vote, drive, work and
>> show their faces in public. We have the freedoms
>> to do and say what we want. They can't stand the
>> fact that we flaunt our freedoms and if we keep
>> doing it eventually people will rise against the
>> Islamo-Fascist and demand their own freedoms.
>> That's why they think we need to be stopped.

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162577
---
Don't confuse the Islamo-Facist with the entire Moslem population.
Most Moslums do not wish us harm.

On 6/30/05, S. Isaac Dealey wrote:
> .... hey wait... I sense... somewhere in the world... someone is ...
> HAVING FUN! ... this cannot be allowed! This must be stopped at all
> costs! I must KILL MYSELF in a valiant bombing of a discoteque to stop
> this!
>
> For the record, I don't think the mere existence of the US causes a
> burning fear of violent revolution in their leaders either. We're not
> talking about a country full of liberated people who are used to being
> able to mostly say and do what they want (financial limits not
> withstanding) who are then suddenly subjugated by a foreign
> dictatorship which takes those priviledges away. The people who live
> in these countries have a completely different thought-world. Sure
> they may have daydreams of what it's like to live in the US and
> bringing that to their country, but to most of them that vision is no
> more concrete or real than a vision of homelessness is to one of our
> country's economic elite. It's not the sort of thing they generally
> consider within the realm of possibility. Even if they did, many of
> them don't even want it -- why do you think there are islamic women
> who come here and continue to live with those traditions in spite of
> being free to shed them? Making the claim that they live in fear of a
> revolution because the US exists is like making the claim that
> Americans are afraid of alien invasion because of the recent remake of
> War of the Worlds.
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162579
---

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> huh? That particular book is about an American who helps out in the
> Spanish Civil War. Hemingway.

Sorry didn't read that either, not big into Hemingway.

> As to your comments... Iraqis are not doing so well at ruling the
> world. They aren't doing very well at ruling Iraq :)

We're not talking about the bulk of the Iraqi population. They voted.
It's the Islamic Army in Iraq and the Mujahideen that I'm talking
about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Army_in_Iraq

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qaida :
"it seeks to establish, via military and terrorist tactics, a radical
form of Islamist ideology to supplant both current regimes in the
Middle East and eventually Western society as a whole. The group
places itself in confrontation with the United States, because the
U.S. and other liberal democracies stand between Al-Qaeda and the
achievement of its extremist objectives. Another reason for their
conflict with the United States is their perception that certain
aspects of Western culture and values are incompatible with Islam."

> In Afghanistan, I
> have heard that Karzai is essentially president of Iraq. And that was
> a right-wing talk show host who said that, probably your kind of guy.
>

That statement means less than nothing to me.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162580
---
That was rather my point.

s. isaac dealey 954.522.6080
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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162583
---
The French were the colonial power in Vietnam until the late 50s when
the North Vietnamese handed them their hats at Dien Bien Phu, a remote
fortress the French held. The tenacity the NVA and Viet Cong showed in
fighting that fight (for instance - they disassembled large calibre
cannon on one side of the mountains surrounding Dien Bien Phu and
carried them over the mountains, reassembled them on the other side)
should have been a clue to the US Military planners that this was a
different kind of enemy.

Yes, you're right Sam, Eisenhower sent "advisors" to help train the
ARVN (Army of the Republiuc of Vietnam) and later Kennedy escalated
with combat troops.

We assisted in regime change in Vietnam too, but we ousted (or rather,
did not prevent the ousting of our ally).

Should we have intervened in Vietnam, to this day I believe so. Did we
do it wrong over there? Absolutely...

> and the French sent what exactly? I submit that maybe we all
> lookedlike to them.

--
will


"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true;
and that would just be unacceptable."
- Carrie Fisher

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Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162584
---
Couldn't have been a flawed strategy (Overwhelming force without
taking into consideration the tenacity of your enemy)?

Wrong type of army fielded (A primarilty conscript army fighting what
essentially amounts to an insurgency a highly mobile guerilla force)?

Couldn't have been restrictions on interdiction and other measures
that hamstrung our troops but were still perfectly acceptable under
the rules of war?

Lt John Kerry (who actually went to the fight, remember?) was
instrumental in losing the fight?

Whatever...


> Hell Yes!

--
will


"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true;
and that would just be unacceptable."
- Carrie Fisher

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162585
---
yes and much the same is true of Iraq I think. Though I am not sure we
should have intervened. I know I was against it at the time. But once
we did, we should have listened to our military leaders rather than
scoffing and saying ha, we shocke and awed them and now the mission is
accomplished

Dana

On 6/30/05, William Bowen <willia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The French were the colonial power in Vietnam until the late 50s when
> the North Vietnamese handed them their hats at Dien Bien Phu, a remote
> fortress the French held. The tenacity the NVA and Viet Cong showed in
> fighting that fight (for instance - they disassembled large calibre
> cannon on one side of the mountains surrounding Dien Bien Phu and
> carried them over the mountains, reassembled them on the other side)
> should have been a clue to the US Military planners that this was a
> different kind of enemy.
>
> Yes, you're right Sam, Eisenhower sent "advisors" to help train the
> ARVN (Army of the Republiuc of Vietnam) and later Kennedy escalated
> with combat troops.
>
> We assisted in regime change in Vietnam too, but we ousted (or rather,
> did not prevent the ousting of our ally).
>
> Should we have intervened in Vietnam, to this day I believe so. Did we
> do it wrong over there? Absolutely...
>
> > and the French sent what exactly? I submit that maybe we all
> > lookedlike to them.
>
>
> --
> will
>
>
> "If my life weren't funny, it would just be true;
> and that would just be unacceptable."
> - Carrie Fisher
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162586
---
I don't see you running for the recruiters office Sam.

Tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 2:10 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: speaking of
>
>
> Yeah! How dare we help the Iraqis defend themselves against those
> harmless insurgents that are only seeking peace on earth?
>
> On 6/29/05, Dana wrote:
> > He's kidding, right? He's down to let's kill these people because they
> > sort of resemble people who tried to kill us? This is a Washington
> > Post summary btw.
> >
> > Bush Says War Is Worth Sacrifice
> > President Bush urges Americans not to lose faith in the Iraq war
> > effort, using a prime-time address to argue that the Iraq insurgents
> > are the same breed of Islamic terrorist that struck the United States
> > on Sept. 11, 2001.
> >
> > Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162587
---
Seriously, don't get me started on another KBR rant.

Tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Champagne [mailto:r...@cvwp.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 4:40 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: speaking of
>
>

> Don't forget about the conflict of interest he has there....
>
> SStewart wrote:
> > Regardless, if we had followed the Powell doctrine, and hit
> Iraq with an overwhelming *international* force, this would all
> be over and our troops would be home.
> >
> > Instead we follow the doctrine of a man (Rumsfeld)with no
> practical military experience, who's been at odds with the Joint
> Chiefs, the very people he should be taking his cues and advice
> from since day one.. Who has cost thousands of lives
> unecessisarily, and put the US Armed Forces in a Vietnam sized
> quagmire without any sensible plan for progression or completion.
> >
> > Whether or not we should be there, IMO is irrelevant at this
> point. Define the mission, finish the mission expeditiously, and
> bring the fighting men and women home.
> >
> > Scott A. Stewart,
> > Web Application Developer
> >
> > Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
> > 14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
> > Chantilly, VA 20151
> > Phone: (703) 995-1737
> > Fax: (703) 834-5527

> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 05:20 pm
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: speaking of

> > Importance: Low
> >
> > http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> =================================================================
> Ray Champagne - Senior Application Developer
> CrystalVision Web Site Design and Internet Services
> 603.433.9559
> www.crystalvision.org
> =================================================================
>
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> 1.) It distracts the US from attacking Al Qaeda.
> We never let up on al Qaeda.

Yes we did. we took troops, weapons and money out of Afghanistan that we
needed to persue the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters that came here and killed
Americans.

> 2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).
> I don't agree.

Great argument, how about you ask someone from overseas their opinion of
what's going on? How about you look at some of the opinion polls and all
the research showing that we are far less respected internationally than we
have ever been.

> 3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.
> Doesn't every war? The difference is the terrorists are dying in this
> training camp.

More terrorists are coming from other nations everyday. This has become a
problem in Afghanistan as well. Look at a map sometime and see how many
Islamic nations there are buddy.

> 4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
> and take them global.
> Huh?

Recruit the good cell leaders, export them to the 'new' conflict areas like
asisa.

> 5.) It depletes America's war chest.
> Helps us clean out the old tired weapons and build fresh ones :)

Ok, and who is going to pay for that? Also how is an M-1 Abrahms, or the
M-4 rifle, or the 150,000 a shot Javelin an old tired weapon?

> 6.) It demoralizes Americans.
> Only people like you do that.

You are a fool

> 7.) It demoralizes our troops.
> Only people like you do that.

See last

> 8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
> "fight them there" propaganda.
> As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and waiting?

How about investing in real border and immigration security?

> 9.) It creates an enormous risk of CREATING another Afghanistan.
> They grow poppy in Iraq?

No, they have oil. Far more valuable.

> 10.) Americans are dying 2 per day from criminals of convenience
> rather than global terrorists.
> You think the insurgents are just criminals and not global terrorists?

I think some wouldn't give a shit about the US if we weren't in that country
right now.

Tim

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162589
---
> > That's not what US Special Forces in Afghanistan said. They said they
> > troop strength was reduced by 90% and they lost equipment support.
>
> Are you passing around crap you heard in the bar as facts or do you
> actually have a source this time:)
> Do they need to be at the same levels they were at before the
> Taliban fell?

Tell me I don't know what I am talking about Sam!! Tell me about losing
people, for what? In non-armored humvees. Tell me why that largest air
base in Afghanistan doesn't have a counter battery radar to respond to
indirect fire, after you look up what that means.

> > > 2.) It erodes world support for America (except for Russia).
> > > I don't agree.
> >

> > Ok, but anyone that's actually studied the matter agrees with me.
>
> By studying do you really mean, "Believe the biased Pew polls"?

Have you traveled internationally in the last few years? I have, and not
only for the Army, but going to Europe for the State Dept. Ask an Italian
off the street what they think of our policies sometime.

> > > 3.) It creates a test bed for techniques and weapons.
> > > Doesn't every war? The difference is the terrorists are dying in this
> > > training camp.
> >

> > Yes, the dumb ones die, are replaced by 2 more and the smart ones pass
> > along the technology to Bin Laden.
>
> Are you saying that in war only the dumb ones die? That's an extremely
> obnoxious thing to say and I hope you apologize for it.

It's called lessons learned. Your force learns TTPs (Tactics, Techniques
and Procedures). You get better and better at what you're doing.

> > >
> > > 4.) It creates a terrorist recruiting dream: find the good attackers
> > > and take them global.
> > > Huh?
> >

> > You throw a buch of guys into Bahgdad and some real leaders will
> > emerge. They'll be clever, motivated, well-trained, and battle
> > experienced. Now they're ready for the big leagues - attacking
> > America.
>
> Isn't that what every war does? Are you saying what they learn in
> Baghdad will help them with terrorist attacks against the US?
> Different battles and battlefields.

Really? It's the same people doing the same sort of security operations.
State, CIA, FBI, HS, all these different federal agencies running force
protection ops around the world, all running from the same play book. You
don't think they might notice a pattern in there somewhere?

> > > 6.) It demoralizes Americans.
> > > Only people like you do that.
> >

> > Wonderful! The Vietnam disease of shooting the messenger.

>
> We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda, Kerry
> and people like you.

Or we could have pushed the soviets into a corner and caused WW 3. You
can't back up a statement like that.

> > > 8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
> > > "fight them there" propaganda.
> > > As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and waiting?
> >

> > No. As opposed to using our full military effort to attack the people
> > that attacked us - Al qaeda. You might as well dig a ditch as invade
> > Iraq. They are both equally effective at dismantling Al Qaeda.
>
> If you only look for Bin Laden you will miss all the other terrorists.
> Al Qeada is in Iraq, they had connections to Iraq and Iraq was a safe
> haven for the terrorists.

What about Indonesia? What about the Philippines? What about the Sudan,
Afghanistan, Saudi, Egypt, Yemen? Are we going to invade everyone?

Tim
B co 3-116th Infantry

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162611
---
"Observers" were sent over while the French occupied Vietnam. Once the Frence pulled out it was generally considered that Vietnam was a hotbed for Communism that would spread throughout southeast Asia. Kennedy faced an entirely different situation than Eisenhower.

--- On Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:13 PM, Sam scribed: ---

>
> You have yoyur version and I have mine :)
> Eisenhower sent over observers, Kennedy sent troops.
>

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162613
---
Another way of saying that could be:

Most suicide bombs in Iraq by foreigners (Middle Easterners)
Most bombs in Iraq by foreigners (Americans)

So what are the Iraqis doing but getting bombed by foreigners

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:59 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

_suicide_missions_5
Most Suicide Bombs in Iraq by Foreigners

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> I think it's entirely possible that *they* think they are freedom
> fighters, anyway. As for the election... well, they had one, yes, and
> whether it was a fair election I dunno. All I am saying is that these
> people did not wake up one morning and decide it would be a good idea
> to be suicide bombers. There is a context there, whether you consider
> it valid or not.
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162614
---
Even MacNamara admitted that Vietnam was FUBAR.

--- On Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:05 PM, William Bowen scribed: ---

>
>> We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda,
>> Kerry and people like you.
>

> So fighting the war for the wrong reasons and with the wrong strategy
> and misinterpreting and underestimating the strength of resolve of our
> enemies had nothing at all to do with the outcome of Vietnam?
>
> Puh-friggin'-lease
>
> Sam, this is a particularly short-sited and over-simplified view out
> _that_ particular conflict, even for you...
>
> Oh and it started out as Eisenhower's war...and before that it was
> France's war.

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162615
---
That sounds like a Bushism Er.. Carl Roveism...

Carl: This is what I think my opponent would say and its wrong.

When its not your opponents comment or thoughts at all. Just a way of
distracting the argument and attributing something to your opponent that
he had nothing to do with.

Is Sam an online name for Carl Rove?

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 3:02 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

It doesn't justify anything. I'm totally against these racist
neighborhoods.
It just sounded a lot like Gruss' analogy.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> wow... didn't they kill a kid out there? And this justifies possibly
> preventnig a car theft??
>

Flash for programmers - Flash MX Pro
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162617
---
Is that the Bush Administration you talking about?

Wage war against the world - Bush 2 wars and looking for more (Korea,
Syria, Iran ...)
Slaughter people at will - Bush (Seeing willingness er.. desire to go to
war)
Especially non-believers - Bush (Christian mandate)

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam [mailto:samm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 3:40 PM
To: CF-Community
Subject: Re: speaking of

Yes, their freedom to rule the world, enslave women and slaughter
people at will, especially the non-believers. My bad.

On 6/30/05, Dana wrote:
> sorry, I meant For Whom the Bell Tolls. My point is that a foreign
> freedom fighter is not by definition a terrorist, unless your
> definition of terrorist includes "all people who disagree with me."
>
> Dana

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162619
---

"Yes, their freedom to rule the world, enslave women and slaughter people at will, especially the non-believers. My bad"

Sounds like the Crusades....... :)

sas

Scott A. Stewart,
Web Application Developer

Engineering Consulting Services, Ltd. (ECS)
14026 Thunderbolt Place, Suite 300
Chantilly, VA 20151
Phone: (703) 995-1737
Fax: (703) 834-5527



--

No virus found in this outgoing message.
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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162620
---

> Sam wrote:
> I guess it's a little stretch but I was thinking of the theft aspect

The point of the analogy is that you can't rid yourself of an
undesriable element by plopping down in one place with an attractant.
It doesn't work for mosquitos, thieves, terrorists, or any other
undesirable you can think of.

The only way to stop that type of thing is to attack the nest and kill
the queen. Then you have to mop up the leftovers and leave.

Afghanistan was the nest, but we failed to kill the queen or mop up
the leftovers. Now we have 2 problems:

1.) The queen is still out there planning to attack our nest and,
2.) Every bug that likes American blood knows where to find it locally and is.

Iraq will do NOTHING to stop global terror and weakens us for that fight.

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[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162623
---
Great, Gruss has just called bin Laden a queen. Time for another
jihad to happen :)

On 7/1/05, Gruss Gott <grus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sam wrote:
> > I guess it's a little stretch but I was thinking of the theft aspect
>
> The point of the analogy is that you can't rid yourself of an
> undesriable element by plopping down in one place with an attractant.
> It doesn't work for mosquitos, thieves, terrorists, or any other
> undesirable you can think of.
>
> The only way to stop that type of thing is to attack the nest and kill
> the queen. Then you have to mop up the leftovers and leave.
>
> Afghanistan was the nest, but we failed to kill the queen or mop up
> the leftovers. Now we have 2 problems:
>
> 1.) The queen is still out there planning to attack our nest and,
> 2.) Every bug that likes American blood knows where to find it locally and is.
>
> Iraq will do NOTHING to stop global terror and weakens us for that fight.
>
>

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162627
---
Loathe,
What did you do in the Army?

I haven't heard anyone mention counter mortar radar since I left the
Marines 17 years ago. I was FDC for towed 155mm Nuclear Capable
howitzers.

FDC (Fire Direction Control): a forward observer (someone closer to the
enemy than I was) would call in the coordinates of a target. The FDC
team would calculate the location of the howitzers (canons) and the
location of the enemy target and determine what kind of round (several
kinds of projectiles that can be shot through a howitzer, the arsenal my
unit had at its disposal included Nukes) how to aim the canons, and how
much gun powder it would take to get the round to the target. We would
then call all that information down to the gun line and send the rounds
down range.

> We would have won Kennedy's Vietnam War if it weren't for Fonda, Kerry
> and people like you.

Or we could have pushed the soviets into a corner and caused WW 3. You
can't back up a statement like that.

> > > 8.) It creates a false sense for security for people that buy the
> > > "fight them there" propaganda.
> > > As opposed to the real security of just sitting around and
waiting?
> >
> > No. As opposed to using our full military effort to attack the
people
> > that attacked us - Al qaeda. You might as well dig a ditch as
invade
> > Iraq. They are both equally effective at dismantling Al Qaeda.
>
> If you only look for Bin Laden you will miss all the other terrorists.
> Al Qeada is in Iraq, they had connections to Iraq and Iraq was a safe
> haven for the terrorists.

What about Indonesia? What about the Philippines? What about the
Sudan,
Afghanistan, Saudi, Egypt, Yemen? Are we going to invade everyone?

Tim
B co 3-116th Infantry

[arc...@houseoffusion.com]

Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:162652
---

Davis Hanson from the September 2003 American Legion Magazine:

Gen. Giap, in a series of postbellum interviews, confessed that the
North Vietnamese were ready to cease aggression under the weight of
the 1972 and 1973 bombing campaigns. He then directly associated the
reprieve with the welcome efforts of the radical antiwar movement.
Indeed he told French television that his most important guerrilla
ally during the war was the American press. The Vietnam News Agency as
early as 1966 wrote "We praise the American peace champions. The
movement of the American people to protest the war of aggression has
really become the second front against the U.S. imperialists." Another
communist official, Bui Tinh, claimed that Fonda's Hanoi visits, press
releases and much publicized photo-ops in enemy batteries had helped
the communists "to hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

On 6/30/05, William Bowen wrote:
> Couldn't have been a flawed strategy (Overwhelming force without
> taking into consideration the tenacity of your enemy)?
>
> Wrong type of army fielded (A primarilty conscript army fighting what
> essentially amounts to an insurgency a highly mobile guerilla force)?
>
> Couldn't have been restrictions on interdiction and other measures
> that hamstrung our troops but were still perfectly acceptable under
> the rules of war?
>
> Lt John Kerry (who actually went to the fight, remember?) was
> instrumental in losing the fight?
>
> Whatever...
>
>
> > Hell Yes!
>
> --
> will