H1B Visa guys

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

I am going to make some generalizations which may not be true for specific individual cases, but generally correct.  This disclaimer applies to all sections below.  This will get me off the hook from a few angry individuals.

Many students from first tier Indian universities like IITs and second rate universities like the RECs, after finishing their BE degree, come to US universities on F1 student visas, finish their MS and PhDs, take up a job, first convert their visas into H1B (while their green card applications are being processed) and then get their green cards.  These guys are comparable to the best from anywhere and face very little difficulty in holding on their jobs and get pay raises and promotions.

Then there are guys who get their BE degree from third rate, useless universities or are real underachievers at other places.  US has been giving out 100,000 H!b visas a year for many years (mostly in the IT area) and now around 60,000.  With such a large flux, many of these guys end up in the US.  Is it surprising to see a significant % of these losing their jobs for poor performance?  Firing people for under performance requires good amount of documentation substantiating the decision for legal reasons.  Therefore, companies often lay these people off citing the economy, which is an easy way out.  If you talk to these people, they will tell you that they were performing at the top level and company just screwed them

Let me give you a hypothetical situation.  Let us say Annamma owns a engg company and has employed 10 from the IIT, 10 from the REC and 10 from IIT, Bangalore (yes, there is an IIT in Bangalore.  It is called Islamic Institute of Technology and the admission is strictly and only based on money given).  She hired them at one time because she needed 30 people desperately to do certain things and these were the only ones available.  Then, she needed to reduce the work force by 10.  Is she going to let go of the first IITs or the last IITs?  Tough dilemma, isn't it?

In the US, before an H1B foreigner can be hired, companies have to show that a permanent resident or a citizen with similar qualification is not available.  This is a very justifiable requirement.  An employee can be fired for poor performance only if it is documented clearly, communicated to the employee and the employee is given a reasonable time period to correct the deficiency (depending on the job category and complexity, this can be anywhere from 1 month to 3-6 months).  Lay offs can be based on documented performance deficiency, last-in-first-out, or based on skill set required versus what is available, etc.  The exact formula must be announced and implemented without exception.  Also the lay off can be all temporary workers (like the H1Bs) first and then the full time permanent employees based on the formula to meet the total number. The lay off can not be based on age, nationality, salary, sex, race, etc.  That is the law.

If the company has communicated the law to the individual managers and any particular manager breaks the law, then the company is not liable for damages and the manager is personally liable.  This can bankrupt him and therefore, we used to consult the HR department about our plans and get their blessing before implementing it (we were just plain scared)..  If the company doesn't follow the law or has not communicated the law to the managers, the company will be legally responsible.

I have written enough on the subject.  I will take rest.

RS.

[J. Kayani]

RS,

Good summary.  No employer wants to see its name appear in any news media for employee firing/wrong doing. 

 

Our friends back home should not be under the impression that local US citizens are not fired from jobs.  I know a few instances:  I had to participate to fire a lady engineer from my group for poor performance;  a nuclear engineer was fired because he consulted a book while taking a licensing examination; an engineer was fired because he assaulted a manager in an elevator in World Trade Center building (I was on the elevator to witnes the incident).

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[Ramanathan Sankaran]

As I had already written, US Dept of Labor and other govt agencies make sure that H1Bs are paid the same as US citizens and are not here to depress the wages.

Among various groups within the US, average salary is the highest for people from Japan, India the second and others including the whites are below that.  This has to do with the specialization they have done.  Indian newspapers here routinely publish such surveys and gloat over this.

Since the 1960s, when national quotas were eliminated, the largest immigrants to the US are from China and Taiwan and then India.  Most come here first as students.  Ever since China liberalized the economy, there has been a reverse flow, but still less than the number that stay back.  Same since is happening with India now.  India started liberalizing the economy much later.

I have had very close friends from Taiwan, South Korea and Japan and as a nation and as individuals, they are highly appreciative of the economic and military assistance from the US and the US help in industrializing their countries.  India had received the help one the one hand and spewed vitriolic anti-US rhetoric on the other and as a result, when the US withheld anything, the rhetoric had gone up by a notch.  I am glad to see that Prime Minister Singh is trying to reduce the rhetoric considerably.

Mainland China after Mao came to power, on the otherhand, refused any foreign assistance.  They also said they are in position to preach any one and therefore, no rhetoric came from them all these years. 

Initially my reaction was why should Sonia Gandhi with no political background and of Italian ancestry take control.  Are there any Indian qualified?  Now I admire her.  Without her, a highly qualified non-politician like Singh would never have become the PM.

We all throw antiimperialistic rhetoric at US and UK.  Yet, a small group of British could never have ruled India for about 190 years without the full support of the Indian ruling class (and the averge Indians as soldiers) who were looking out for themselves and fighting with each other.  I am sure all you watched the movie Gandhi and remember the Jalianwalla Bagh scene where a battalion of Indian soldiers, under the command of a British,  fired upon the Indian masses.  Also, for a 1000 years before that, India had been ruled by the Afghans, Turks, Chinese (I believe Kanishka was from China), ...

Enough said.  Annamma had already indicated that I have been flooding the site with emails.  Secondly, it is difficult or impossible to reason with left wing rhetoric.  No more email from me on this topic.

RS.

P. S.  In all these emails, I have intentionally kept personal details out and discussed only the general issues.  That is how I am going to keep it.

[BK Palit]

RS thanks for your reply.....nothing more rom me to add...... cheers....palit --- On Sun, 1/10/10, Ramanathan Sankaran <sankar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[mani .]

RS

  What you have written is absolutely correct. I used to wonder how US  is giving H1B visas to so many people and lot of trash have landed  in US. It applies to Indian IT industry also. The slowdown separated the chaff from the grain here also . Incidentally Bangalore IIT is closed ! I dont know the reason but I suppose they couldnt get enough rich .........

                                                                                         Mani

[Annamma John]

RS

Thanks for expressing your views openly. We are ardent admirers trying to understand your emails.

Annamma  

[Annamma John]

 LET ME EXPLAIN HOW lot of trash have landed  in US.

In 1997, when the body shopping for Y2K-IT guys was taking place in AP, a policeman stopped by to find out the reason for the crowd. He parked his bycycle on the roadside and went inside the building and the chance of a lifetime, got recruited and landed in US with H1B.

[TJ]

Yes Annamma,

I remember now - there was a lady mechanical engineer inside the
building who was doing quality control. She too got along with the
policeman to US. Now is is very close to Obama. TJ

[TJ]

Hi Mani - you seemed to have not read RS's full form of IIT BLR.
TJ

On Jan 11, 5:53 pm, "mani ." <m...@proconengineers.com> wrote:
> RS >   What

[TJ]

RS,

You imparted a lot of stuff to general public ! Do not shy to write
more points. These are topics of great interest and your contributions
are well received. Do not hesitate to keep writing. TJ

On Jan 11, 12:51 am, Ramanathan Sankaran <sankaran1...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> As I had already only the general issues.  That

[TJ]

KTJ,

WTC elevator incident - what a news ! With 9/11 in the background
you would never forget that incident! TJ

On Jan 9, 8:24 pm, "J. Kayani" <jtkay...@gmail.com> wrote:
> in an elevator in World Trade Center building (I was on the elevator to witness the incident).

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

Hello TJ,

Thanks for the nice note. One of these days, I may be tempted to
write my own story. But I wanted the discussion to be on general
terms and not on personal issues and decisions which are of infinite
variety.

Manmohan Singh is made a plea the NRIs. His own daughter is a lawyer
in New York working with ACLU the last time I read about her couple of
years back! Just like most of the other politicians in spite of my
opinion that Manmohan Singh is among the very best India ever had as
far as integrity goes, Lal Bahdur Sastri being the other.

The three points I was trying to make are the following:

(1) British subjugation was due mainly to Indians working with them
for personal gains and to settle scores with each other. At the
height of British rule, there were less than 50000 British and 3
million Indians in Britain's Indian Army obeying their orders
Secondly, Indians had allowed themselves to be ruled for a 1000 years.
How can we point a finger at others when 4 fingers are pointed at us.

(2) US has been very generous with India most of the time. When US
was nasty, one can say "what do you expect when you consistently have
been nasty to the US".

(3) US have been very decent in its treatment of NRIs and H1Bs. When
H1Bs, who came to the US on a fixed duration visa to begin with,
complained about hardship of going back, US changed rules and started
giving them permanent residence as long as they had a job upto that
point (this removes all the riffraff and the policemen turned IT
professional). To qualified people like me, recognition, rewards and
opportunities have been great and often better than India. In India,
connections and money take front seat compared to qualification (this
has been my experience before I came to the US and 10 years after PhD
as you may read out later).

I think I have pushed aside any prejudice and made an impartial
assessment, as I am trained to do with research data. Yet, when I
wrote these, there was not even a single soul among the CET readers in
India who could come forward and say there is some validity to these
points of view. All I heard was the well worn-out left wing rhetoric
and prompt support for that. Are we all so conditioned and
brainwashed?

RS.

[john s chandy]

Chechi,

Your story reminds me of TCS at Chennai.

The main office of TCS was at Lloyd st., off Mount road, famous for Church Park convent , where Jaya studied. Her own ADMK office is situated at the far end of the street.

During y2k boom/farce, TCS was desperate for head count and was recruiting any Tom,

Dick and Harry ( Ethu Polisukaraneyum). So a 'Valipan' like our late Alenchery, put 

a sign board at the entrance of the Lloyd st. 

'Beware, Trespassers who enter this street 'ld be forcibly recruited by TCS  and later 

on might be exiled to USA'.

jsc

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[Sushil Kumar]

RS should start a Visa Application Advisory,Screening,& Procuring Agency,"VAASPA", so that he can ensure that all his candidates qualify to become 'Green-carders'....1-D.

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[J. Kayani]

TJ,

 

I worked at 2 WTC bldg., 87th floor for over 8 years; our company leased 10 floors in that bldg.  In '69 when I came that bldg. was under construction.  It was a very beautiful building, each floor about an acre of offce space, about 350 peple could work on each floor.  One time I took my family there to watch the July 4th fireworks.  I have fond memories of that place.

 

RS,

 

I sense an voice of frustrated angry elite response syndrome to some of your well thought out responses.  I worked mostly in utility companies where citizens and green card holders were employed.  I don't have any experiece with H1 visa issue. 

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 5:33 AM, Sushil Kumar <sus...@gmail.com> wrote:

RS should start a Visa Application Advisory,Screening,& Procuring Agency,"VAASPA", so that he can ensure that all his candidates qualify to become 'Green-carders'....1-D.

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

To JK,

The anger and frustration probably is due to the extremely poor
standard of college education in many places in India, the recruiting
of students even in many good colleges based on money and influence,
falsifying exams and test, etc. If the people working in an office
take bribes, the present society is corrupted/ Corruption in the
education system makes sure that the future is also poisoned by
corruption and ineptitude. Mine is not a elite response. I strongly
believe that the education system must be very clearly merit based
with help given to the disadvantaged classes to reach that merit
level, to protect the future.

To SK: "RS should start a Visa Application Advisory,Screening,&

Procuring Agency,"VAASPA", so that he can ensure that all his

candidates qualify to become 'Green-carders'...1-D." - In graduate
school, we were advising faculty on applications from India.

RS.

[Annamma John]

RS

Till 15 years ago, the number of engineering colleges was less than a dozen in Kerala, the universities could exercise some standard for the graduates. Now, can you imagine the standard when there are 82 engineering colleges with all tom dick and harry getting admission?

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

JK,

I never had an H1B in my organization. In the semiconductor area,
enginners are almost always with US education since Indian
universities and companies are still not players in this area.
Because this requires huge capital and heavy infrastructure.

However, I worked with H1Bs in the IT support area. My comments were
by interaction with them in my private life, their educational
backgrounds and reading articles on them.

I have similar comments (generally correct, although may not apply to
a particular individual) about their private life in the US. I will
write this in another email.

RS.

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

Hi Annamma,

I didn't realize that there are that many. I knew there has been an
explosion in number.

RS.

[Annamma John]

And a dozen medical colleges (do not know the exact number) and so many more dental colleges.

Evevthough the communists were against the self-financing colleges, finally everybody realized that all those who dont get admission in the state, go to Tamil nadu or Karnataka.

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

There has also been a substantial increase in the number of IITs.
That is fine. However, existing colleges are changed to IITs not
based on merit alone, but whether there is one in Kerala or not and
other political and communal considerations. That can start the
downfall.

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Ramanathan Sankaran

[john s chandy]

RS, Given below is the state wise list of Engineering colleges in India. Chechi might 

call me a liar.!! But you can click on each state to go to the link and verify the 

veracity of it.

Andhra Pradesh (431) Assam (33) Bihar (50) Chhattisgarh (26) Delhi (89) Goa (8) Gujarat (138) Haryana (105) Himachal Pradesh (15) Jammu and Kashmir (32) Jharkhand (23) Karnataka (485) Kerala (117) Madhya Pradesh (1) Madya Pradesh (169) Maharashtra (556) Manipur (3) Mizoram (3) Orissa (132) Pondicherry (18) Punjab (108) Rajasthan (90) Sikkim (4) Tamil Nadu (525) Tripura (3) Uttar Pradesh (241) Uttaranchal (44) West Bengal (124)

 Total for India (3572)

[BK Palit]

good show.....in comparison  to population explosion..... in our Proff Chacko s words....its better to have Engg Grads....to only grads.... --- On Wed, 1/13/10, john s chandy <chan...@gmail.com> wrote:

veracity of it.

[Annamma John]

Good Job!

[Ramanathan Sankaran]

Hi Chandy,

The numbers are astounding esp. in Karnataka. I guess it is a big business now!