time in electroacoustic music / philosophical lenses on electroacoustic

[Adrian Moore]

Hi,

I am wondering if anyone can help me with a bibliographic search please.
I am looking for writings that deal specifically with time.

1. Seriously: the nature of time in electroacoustic music, how time
passes/flows, how it relates to space and the perception of the sound
object.
2. Less seriously: why ea must be < 15 minutes duration and if so, how
it (might) determine the amount of spl, highs and lows etc. etc. This
topic has been well discussed before.
3. Even less seriously: how long does it take to make a piece of
electroacoustic music? Has technology helped or hindered the composer?

I am not so worried about the ear/brain echoic memory - STM - LTM
aspects of time as these are all well documented. I'm more interested in
anecdotal thinking and philosophical debates.

And on that note I'm trying to pose the question that relates back to
judgements made about electroacoustic music many years ago, comparing
pithy comments that it all sounds the same (but there may be an ounce of
truth there - it mostly sounds 'like' something else, not itself) with
the observation that a) many are still making it, b) there is an
enormous wealth of originality in sounds that are ostensibly 'the same',
and c) some of the music of the 50s - 00s sounds as fresh today as it
did then (and I can only speak of the music from the 80s and on:)

Thanks in advance for any bibliographic references (especially online
accessible ones) shared on or off list.

Thanks also to anyone that may care to write < 500 about their key
methods / tips / tricks / contexts / manipulations etc. and send to
a.j....@shef.ac.uk. I'm developing a text about music composition for
students at Sheffield. One appendix - soon to be chapter - of which is
'composer recollections'. I'd welcome any/all contributions from
composers that have the time to write and the motivation to share their
secrets (which of course means they won't be secrets - any more).
http://adrian-moore.staff.shef.ac.uk/sonicart_recipesandreasonings.pdf

Best wishes,
Adrian Moore.


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[Guy Harries]

Aki Pasoulas's PhD thesis provides an excellent overview
http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/1155/

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[Sam Salem]

I recommend Sculpting in Time by Tarkovsky for a time-based media / non-EA perspective. 

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[Nicolas Marty]

Hi,

I'm soon to begin a doctoral thesis about time experience in acousmatic music, so I'd very much like news about your findings on this topic.

As for recommandations, you may have already read those, but:

Any works about the phenomenology of time (I guess most are available in english - Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Berger, etc.)

Kramer's The Time of Music

For a review of the philosophy of time, and of time in relation to music, there is Eric Emery's Temps et musique (french).

And specifically about ea musics

Kevin Dahan's presentation at EMS12 (last year - the paper should be put online later this year)

Researches about Semiotic Time Units (UST - although I don't know about english publications for those)

http://faculty.smu.edu/robfrank/EA_Temp_Element_Intro.pdf  (I haven't read that yet but it seems pretty interesting)

http://www.ems-network.org/IMG/EMS06-PGarcia.pdf 

Musically yours,

Nicolas Marty

(nico...@hotmail.com)

(http://marty.nicolas.chez.com)

> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:57:08 +0200
> From: a.j....@sheffield.ac.uk
> To: cec-con...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [cec-c] time in electroacoustic music / philosophical lenses on electroacoustic

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[peiman khosravi]

Hello, 

Aki Pasoulas' PhD thesis: http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/1155/

Best,

Peiman 

[elsajustel]

Hi Adrian,
Perhaps my approach is not so philosophic but is a reflexion on the theme.
You will find something specially in chapter I : "La forme dans le temps" page 39 and ss.

http://www.fundestellos.org/Les%20structures%20formelles.pdf

Best
Elsa

[Nikolai Collinsky]

Hi Adrian,

I know you might prefer anecdote and philosophy, but..

Some music psychology style references here:
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Users/nc81/modules/cm1/reading.html#rhythmperception
For these refs mostly more on rhythm in general note-based music than sound-based, though some work on direct time perception such as Poppel's work; books on memory from psychologists like Anderson might be of interest, or Bob Synder's Music and Memory (itself again biased to clearly parseable-by-well-defined-pitched-segments-music).
If you get into metrical structures, I recommend Justin London's book in particular, though the references above don't cover electroacoustic music specifically.

Some further comments from me in a general context of time and rhythm in chapter 8 of Introduction to Computer Music (Wiley). I'm sure you know the Roads discussion in Microsound already.

best,
Nick

[Kevin Austin]

Concerning the Time Sense:
The Seven Pillars of Time Psychology

John A. Michon

Abstract

What does it take to formulate a coherent psychological theory about our experience of time? There is no received view from which we can draw an undisputed set of criteria for qualifying such a theory. It will be argued, however, that there is enough common territory among the prevailing views on psychological time to propose a preliminary and perhaps incomplete set of seven such basic criteria. 

Complete pdf attached.

There is also the more general field of 'entrainment', which I will send references for later.

The 'concept' of a sound object, or the 'reality' of  sound object for those with synesthesia is IME, closely related to the question at hand. Also the nature of gesture [and cadence] as being determinants / modifiers of time can be found in various analyses of soundscaping. Gesture, a higher-level construct of ASA, is based upon the first principle of segmentation.

Kevin

[eric cadesky]

Looking forward to Entrainment references as well whenever you get the chance.

cheers + thanks,

Eric

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<On Time.pdf>

[Kevin Austin]

For a general overview, you could start here:

http://oro.open.ac.uk/2661/1/

from the Abstract:

Abstract

Entrainment, broadly defined, is a phenomenon in which two or more independent rhythmic processes synchronize with each other. To illuminate the significance of entrainment for various directions of music research and promote a nuanced understanding of the concept among ethnomusicologists, this publication opens with an exposition of entrainment research in various disciplines, from physics to linguistics and psychology, while systematically introducing basic concepts that are directly relevant to musical entrainment.

Topics covered include consideration of self-synchrony and interpersonal synchrony in musical performance, humans’ innate propensities to entrain, the influence of cultural and personal factors on entrainment, the numerous functions of musical entrainment in individual health, socialization, and cultural identification, and a presentation of methodologies and analytical techniques.

Finally, some case studies illustrating one methodological strand, that of chronometric analysis, exemplify how the application of the entrainment concept might lead to an understanding of music making and music perception as an integrated, embodied and interactive process. 

A lot to get through, but many ideas related to ea from composition to raves and rock concerts.

[James Andean]

Hi Adrian,

I'm sure you already have it on your list but: Volume 5 of the Bourges 'Actes' - "Time in Electroacoustic Music" - springs to mind...

- James

[Andrew Hill]

Roger Reynolds presents some reflections on time in his text 'Form and Music'.

I would also second the recommendation to look at the phenomenological texts of Merleau-Ponty and Husserl. Merleau-Ponty's framing of Husserl's concepts of potention and retention are very clear and helpful. I used these along with findings from my empirical audience study to critique some theories on temporal perception presented in David Clarke's 'Music and Consciousness'. This section of my thesis (chapter 4) might therefore be of interest (as might the 'Music and Consciousness' text).

Andrew Hill

www.ahillav.co.uk

[ambrose field]

Adrian

2. Less seriously: why ea must be < 15 minutes duration and if so, 

Seriously, why must EA be less than 15 minutes duration? Where is the audience research that might suggest <15 mins is good. There are plenty of excellent long pieces. Yes, there are many good reasons for short pieces - making a concise musical statement is a wonderful thing, but I'm curious as to the facts behind this perception.

pose the question that relates back to 
judgements made about electroacoustic music many years ago, comparing 
pithy comments that it all sounds the same 

More seriously, yes I remember those comments -  \[hard hat going on on now] -  Personally, I think Bob Ostertag absolutely nailed it about ten+ years ago in indicating that the more technology thrown at the problem, the worse the results can be. This might answer factor "c" in your discussion.

Thanks also to anyone that may care to write < 500 about their key 
methods / tips / tricks / contexts / manipulations etc. and send to 

I'm happy to share and help with this. I'm not convinced though that I have any good "secrets" though. Perhaps the real secret is to have fewer "secrets"...everything is less complicated then.

All best - 

Ambrose

[Adrian Moore]

Dear Ambrose,

On duration of works: Ones musical work should have the duration it requires. The way the work unfolds will be related to the material being worked with. There is a long and documented history of works 'of a certain duration' and it must take a certain amount of time for a composer's musical discourse to be made evident. I doubt there is any audience research that suggests < 15 minutes is good and I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time conducting such research. Why then, after everything a composer does qualitatively to create their work is the quantitative so easy to pounce upon? I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short and I know there's lots of research out there that asks these questions. The answer should have everything to do with intention/reception and the listening process and not be a pre-requisite in the ground rules for a competition, or academic submission. And I understand all the pragmatic reasons behind this yet that's where we stand and many composers will make a piece that fits or happens to fit. So how does it fit? What is the difference between 3,5, 7, 13, 15, 17, 20, 30, 50. Dhomont and Bayle probably know better than I as they have solid examples in all areas. We asked that question a bit during 'From tape to typedef' with a very interesting paper from Jeff C. at the time.

I am asked to assess work and am often asked questions relating quality to quantity. Sometimes I find my guidance a little unsatisfactory. I find it difficult to express what it is I'm listening out for in a work .... in words. 'Creative insight, critical artistic awareness' is meaningless. So I encourage people to listen to a/my selection of music by other composers and get shot down for inculcating a canon! Be that as it may, what do people listen out for and how do they learn the tools to recreate, assimilate and strengthen their own artistic lives? Some say people should forge their own paths and find their own way out of the dark. What a waste of time. I think my job as a lecturer is at least to put a light on never mind shining it in any particular direction!

re: technology. True, back then the gripe wasn't actually at the music but the technology and, IMV despite the comment, the technology has prevailed and its use has matured. I try not to listen technologically but if I'm going to replicate, assimilate and move on, it comes in handy to be able to know why a sound sounds the way it does, where it came from, where it's moving to.
I try not to identify sources and causes but we all do. And I've heard and used water, metals and woods a thousand times (in 12 minute pieces too). It's not the quantity - which is perceived instinctively, but the quality - which is engaged with (or endured) actively. And I don't think proponents of the 'it all sounds the same' theory heard it that way back then.

As for secrets. <joke> At 9 thousand pounds a year, 'stick a limiter in' ... about 2 pence. 'Use a multiband compressor and what's more here's how I use it' .... priceless. </joke>

:)
A.

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[Ambrose Field]

Brilliant Adrian! Some fantastic points there in your reply which I will chew over.

Ambrose

On 15 Apr 2013, at 10:44, Adrian Moore <a.j....@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:

here is a long and documented history of works 'of a certain duration'

We're talking Denis' 18 minute 'rule' ?

and it must take a certain amount of time for a composer's musical discourse to be made evident.

I remember him and Jonty saying that. I don't believe it myself.

I doubt there is any audience research that suggests < 15 minutes is good and I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time conducting such research. Why then, after everything a composer does qualitatively to create their work is the quantitative so easy to pounce upon? 

Assessment in uni can be problematic. With the masters' students, I've done away with duration as a criteria. However, the work must show something "substantial".

Yes, here we go again..what is substantial..well, i agree -- demonstrating by example is best, rather than words.

 And I don't think proponents of the 'it all sounds the same' theory heard it that way back then. 

I had a long discussion with naut humon about this. I actually think he was well aware of the differences, but knew something (well, many things actually) then that I have only just

recently found out for myself. It was too easy at the time for everyone to diss naut and bob for having a too simplistic argument. I've since

found that not to be the case. 

Use a multiband compressor and what's more here's how I use it' .... priceless. </joke>

Indeed. I'm so sick of being given 96/24 epic productions,recorded with ribbon mics, through valve pre's, tracked into "the industry standard", 

that all sound like utterly appalling. Learning how to imagine what a piece might be should be what they need, but sound-on-sound doesn't agree, and at 9K you really want

those tools to cosy up to your nice new iMacPad...

A.

[David Hirst]

Having been trained in the 12 tone technique this reminds me of questions of time way back then ( yes I'm that old ), to which the answer is:

Webern

On a tangent ... There are cultural factors at play too, eg for academic ea music, a consideration might be "How long should a work be to have a good chance at being selected for a conference?"

For commercial music: What is a good length to get airplay?

For non-academic, non-commercial music ... Go for it!

Cheers,

David

[peiman khosravi]

I can't remember the title right now but Gerard Grisey has an interesting (if very old) paper about time perception in music. I have a hard copy of it but no pdf.   

P  

Find me @ www.peimankhosravi.co.uk

[Rick]

Grisey's "A Composer's Reflections on Musical Time"?

[peiman khosravi]

That's it. Thanks Rick. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07494468708567060

It's published in English but it took me 3 months to get hold of it through the interloan library. 

Find me @ www.peimankhosravi.co.uk

[John Young]

That's a brilliant volume of CMR as a whole: Saariaho, Boulez, McAdams, Lerdahl, Reynolds, Clarke etc ... ahhh.

J

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Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 2:17 PM
To: cec-con...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [cec-c] Re: time in electroacoustic music / philosophical lenses on electroacoustic

[Ambrose Field]

Couldn't agree more David. The work should be as long as it needs to be.

Problem is for me, that takes literally years to make. I'm very interested to hear from fellow composers who have mastered the art of quality output and faster workflows...
Ambrose

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[richard scott]

On 15/04/2013 16:48, Ambrose Field wrote:
> Problem is for me, that takes literally years to make.

and why is that a bad thing?

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[David Hirst]

For a semiotic view, see Thomas Reiner's book:

Reiner, T., 2000, Semiotics of Musical Time, Peter Lang Publishing Inc, New York NY USA.

Here's the blurb from Amazon:

Semiotics of Musical Time investigates the link between musical time and the world of signs and symbols. It examines the extent to which musical time is a product of signs, sign systems, and sign-oriented behavior. Sound is discussed as a potential sign of time and of musical time.

Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Semiotics-Musical-Berkeley-Insights-Linguistics/dp/0820445258

cheers,

David

Dr David Hirst

Adjunct Associate Professor in Music

Centre for Creative Arts

Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences 
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[hans w koch]

for whomever this might be interesting a german translation of griseys original french article appeared in the collection "neuland - ansaetze zur musik der gegenwart" vol.3, put together in typoscript by the german avantgarde pianist herbert henck in the 80ies.
i could provide a scan as pdf, if there is interest.

h
www.hans-w-koch.net

[Peter Castine]

Y a-t-il une version française ?

[hans w koch]

the german version says "translated from french by henriette beese" (Aus dem Französischen von Henriette Beese). seems safe to assume that there is one.
at the end it also says "this essay served as point of departure for a lecture ath the summercourses in darmstadt 1980 and at the days of contemporary music in stuttgart 1981" (Diese Studie diente als Grundlage eins Vortrages im Rahmen dsr Intern. Ferienkurse f. Neue Musik in Darmstadt 1980 sowie bei den Tagen fuer Neue Musik in Stuttgart 1981.)
h
www.hans-w-koch.net

[Peter Castine]

On 17-Apr-2013, at 14:38, hans w koch <hansw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> the german version says "translated from french by henriette beese" (Aus dem Französischen von Henriette Beese). seems safe to assume that there is one.

Perhaps I should have been more precise and asked "where?" and added the qualification "published."

> at the end it also says "this essay served as point of departure for a lecture ath the summercourses in darmstadt 1980 and at the days of contemporary music in stuttgart 1981" (Diese Studie diente als Grundlage eins Vortrages im Rahmen dsr Intern. Ferienkurse f. Neue Musik in Darmstadt 1980 sowie bei den Tagen fuer Neue Musik in Stuttgart 1981.)

The thing is, not everything published in translation in (for instance) "Darmstädter Beiträge zur neuen Musik" is automatically published in the original. In the case of Grisey, I would expect Gallimard (or someone) to have picked up the original text.

If there are no quick responses, I'll get off my allerwertester and poke around Google Scholar to see what I can find. The paper sounds interesting, I don't know it, and it might well be worth the effort to read in the original.

-- P.

[Peter Castine]

On 17-Apr-2013, at 17:08, Peter Castine <pcas...@gmx.net> wrote:

> If there are no quick responses, I'll get off my allerwertester and poke around Google Scholar

<http://editions-mf.com/?Ecrits-ou-l-invention-de-la>

Seemingly, the original French did not see publication until 2008, over 20 years after the translations (now available online in German, English, and Spanish) and ten years after the author passed on.

Also the original is only on arbres morts.

Hope this information is of use to someone else.

-- P.

[Julian Brooks]

For a more contemporary Phenomenological approach I would highly recommend Don Ihde's 'Listening and Voice'.

-- P.

[Kevin Austin]

On 2013, Apr 15, at 4:46 AM, ambrose field wrote:

Adrian

pose the question that relates back to judgements made about electroacoustic music many years ago, comparing pithy comments that it all sounds the same 

More seriously, yes I remember those comments -  \[hard hat going on on now] -  Personally, I think Bob Ostertag absolutely nailed it about ten+ years ago in indicating that the more technology thrown at the problem, the worse the results can be. This might answer factor "c" in your discussion.

Semantic confusion wearing the guise of wisdom. How it sounds is a function of the listener's head. Maybe the comment was about using stock / factory presets?

Confusion between metrics and psychometrics and undefined use of the word "worse".

A student asked about a piece: "What are the limits to the processing I can use?" My answer. "Your ears."

Thanks also to anyone that may care to write < 500 about their key methods / tips / tricks / contexts / manipulations etc. and send to 

[1] Listen.

[2] Understand perception.

[3] Edit

Kevin

[Kevin Austin]

On 2013, Apr 15, at 5:44 AM, Adrian Moore wrote:

> I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short

When I can sing along with a piece on a first hearing, it's too long.




Kevin

[Kevin Austin]

I have had many students who have written good 400 word Reports in 925 words. The same I find is the case with the pieces.

Kevin



On 2013, Apr 15, at 8:55 AM, David Hirst wrote:

> ...

[Ambrose Field]

Well, it works for me Kevin, and I don't think they were in the least bit confused.

I take their point as being : simply shoving a source sound through a phase vocoder/granulator doesn't automatically make (a) new timbres (b) new music or (c) even anything "experimental". Rewind 20 years and there might have been some valid "new" options there for some composers, particularly those with a focus on process in their work.

All I can say is that using some tools less, searching for a better class of original material, rejecting more, over that timescale has resulted in improvements in what I'm trying to achieve. So, I thank those people for their insights, particularly at a time in computer music when there was a new sound processing tool/method emerging every five minutes. To think I nearly got on a flight just to use a granulator some 3000 miles away- what was I thinking?

Clearly, this kind of tool reductionism (I'd be happy to receive suggestions for replacement term) isn't going to work for everyone, and many significant compositional approaches rely precisely on not doing this.

Ambrose

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[Michael Rhoades]

Ha! Funny Kevin...

For me, the length of the piece is determined by the piece itself. With
some pieces there is much to be said... others are much more succinct.
We have epic stories and short stories and everything in between. Each
has a place. When I am at a conference, I would generally not like to
hear longer pieces primarily because it is difficult to really dig into
them and understand all of the relationships as they interact. A more
succinct piece seems more appropriate to my ears. Yet, at home, when
listening to a CD or DVD I crave long and involved pieces that might
take a lifetime to comprehend because of the extended intricacies...
pieces that sound different every time I listen to them they because I
am focusing upon them from a different perspective and so hearing
different aspects. Of course this is a gross generalization. The length
of a piece does not determine its depth... but it does determine my
attention span within a given situation.

For me planning the length of a piece is a contrivance. It is like
starting a conversation and saying "ok, I can talk with you for 9
minutes". Some conversations I would prefer to end quite quickly and
others might open up to several hours... So I listen to where the piece
wants to go and go there with it. Later, when deciding what to program
for performance or presentation, I consider what piece best fits the
circumstance in which it is to be presented.

Michael
http://www.perceptionfactory.com

[Adrian J Moore]

Yes, it appears from my no doubt naive reading of the likes of Demers and Adorno that a concentrated listen of whatever timespan is almost an impossibility, therefore no wonder some pick up on surface details. Although perhaps it is the other way around: composers have not concentrated enough on their works or have not given the listener chance to adapt their listening throughout the flow of a piece - to give the listener a break - such that the listener is forced into a 'dip in / dip out' approach (an 'ah....I hear the kettle going on' stance) 

'Aesthetic' or 'regressive' listening strikes me as the autocentric tempted towards the selfish. 

But maybe there just aren't enough hours in the day. 

Adrian. 

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[Michael Rhoades]

Just as with conversations perhaps it is not the length of the piece that matters but the depth.

On 5/3/13 10:47 AM, Adrian J Moore wrote:

Yes, it appears from my no doubt naive reading of the likes of Demers and Adorno that a concentrated listen of whatever timespan is almost an impossibility, therefore no wonder some pick up on surface details. Although perhaps it is the other way around: composers have not concentrated enough on their works or have not given the listener chance to adapt their listening throughout the flow of a piece - to give the listener a break - such that the listener is forced into a 'dip in / dip out' approach (an 'ah....I hear the kettle going on' stance) 

'Aesthetic' or 'regressive' listening strikes me as the autocentric tempted towards the selfish. 

But maybe there just aren't enough hours in the day. 

Adrian. 

On 3 May 2013 15:24, Michael Rhoades <mrho...@perceptionfactory.com> wrote:

On 5/2/13 11:04 PM, Kevin Austin wrote:

On 2013, Apr 15, at 5:44 AM, Adrian Moore wrote:

  I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short

When I can sing along with a piece on a first hearing, it's too long.

Ha! Funny Kevin...

For me, the length of the piece is determined by the piece itself. With some pieces there is much to be said... others are much more succinct. We have epic stories and short stories and everything in between. Each has a place. When I am at a conference, I would generally not like to hear longer pieces primarily because it is difficult to really dig into them and understand all of the relationships as they interact. A more succinct piece seems more appropriate to my ears. Yet, at home, when listening to a CD or DVD I crave long and involved pieces that might take a lifetime to comprehend because of the extended intricacies... pieces that sound different every time I listen to them they because I am focusing upon them from a different perspective and so hearing different aspects. Of course this is a gross generalization. The length of a piece does not determine its depth... but it does determine my attention span within a given situation.

For me planning the length of a piece is a contrivance. It is like starting a conversation and saying "ok, I can talk with you for 9 minutes". Some conversations I would prefer to end quite quickly and others might open up to several hours... So I listen to where the piece wants to go and go there with it. Later, when  deciding what to program for performance or presentation, I consider what piece best fits the circumstance in which it is to be presented.

Michael
http://www.perceptionfactory.com

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[Aki Pasoulas]

My paper below deals with time judgments and briefly explores stimulus complexity. There are many more parameters that affect time perception of course.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/dod-idx/stimulus-complexity-and-time-judgments.pdf?c=icmc;idno=bbp2372.2011.035

 

Best,

Aki 

-----------------------------------
http://aki-pasoulas.co.uk

---

From: Michael Rhoades <mrho...@perceptionfactory.com>
To: cec-con...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, 3 May 2013, 16:13
Subject: Re: [cec-c] time in electroacoustic music / philosophical lenses on electroacoustic

[Kevin Austin]

The question of getting durations 'right' has been circled around.

For the more detail there is to hear / listen to, the greater the expansion of time. I don't think that this means that time slows down, or speeds up, but rather it is fuller.

For a number of years I have been trying to find an example of this [other than Kontakte <<8-((>>>>], and have recently found something that may explain this a bit.

The old warhorse, Ravel's Bolero, a work that many academically trained musicians spend as little time as possible with. So well-known, and so far into orchestral players' fingers that rehearsals are often simply partial readings to set tempi. But how about a rehearsal of this 14 minute piece that lasts over 30 minutes, and the playing / performance is picked apart in exquisite detail. This would not be a 'surface listening', but rather a deep reading.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCeZWAawYe0&list=RD02gy5Ve3338-E

This is Celibidache in 1965 with the Swedish Radio Orchestra, clearly a rather second-drawer group at this time. But nothing escapes Celibidche's attention, and everything is worth time spent in clarifying the thought, and content [intent?].

For me, this is time which is filled [and possibly as such moves more slowly]. More of my brain's "clock cycles" are being used, and therefore, when measuring time in clock cycles, the psychological time is greater than the metric time.

His reading of the Enescu Romanian Rhapsody is a great dance number as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ3rsOK3_fk&list=RD02gy5Ve3338-E

The first two-minutes will provide a fine introduction to his humor [and Enescu's genius] which he rides upon.




Kevin

[Kevin Austin]

My own taste for a couple of decades has run to the "larger scale" time span. A couple of weeks ago I was a bit out off by the 35 minute intermissions in the Met's Parsifal. And Gruppen is no longer a particularly long piece.

For Parsifal I spent the last nine months working on a detailed analysis, and listening to / watching a number of performances. At first, there were areas that were "chunked" quite large ... from complete scenes down to a couple of minutes, however familiarity with more and more detail reduced the chunking down to a matter of phrases, then measures, then notes, then vocal inflections within individual notes.

[I have been following the same process with Gruppen, with somewhat similar results.]

One way to consider this is within the Autism Spectrum Disorder previously called Asperger. It is the expression of forest and trees, but taken down a few more levels > can't see the forest for the trees > can't see the tree for the branches > can't see the branch for the leaves > can't see the leaf for the insects > can't see the .....

Forty-five minute North Indian raga can be heard at the surface level, however, every note had to be determined and played, with its micro timings and inflections, and its place within the gesture, and the phrase, and the section etc etc. Listening at the level of the individual note inflection I have found to be good training for commenting on ea pieces. When the composer continuously maintains the level of focus down to the inflection -- or in the case of Acousmatic High Art, down to the level of the individual wave and sample, then I find myself more interested, [in general].

And this is a generalizable skill. The following of micro inflections in [for example] Afghani raga, and comparing them to their parallel types in Hindustani raga [sic], is much the same as following motivic development in the first movement of the Beethoven Ninth Symphony.

Kevin

On 2013, May 3, at 10:47 AM, Adrian J Moore wrote:

Yes, it appears from my no doubt naive reading of the likes of Demers and Adorno that a concentrated listen of whatever timespan is almost an impossibility, therefore no wonder some pick up on surface details. Although perhaps it is the other way around: composers have not concentrated enough on their works or have not given the listener chance to adapt their listening throughout the flow of a piece - to give the listener a break - such that the listener is forced into a 'dip in / dip out' approach (an 'ah....I hear the kettle going on' stance) 

'Aesthetic' or 'regressive' listening strikes me as the autocentric tempted towards the selfish. 

But maybe there just aren't enough hours in the day. 

Adrian. 

On 3 May 2013 15:24, Michael Rhoades <mrho...@perceptionfactory.com> wrote:

On 5/2/13 11:04 PM, Kevin Austin wrote:

On 2013, Apr 15, at 5:44 AM, Adrian Moore wrote:

  I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short

When I can sing along with a piece on a first hearing, it's too long.

Ha! Funny Kevin...

For me, the length of the piece is determined by the piece itself. With some pieces there is much to be said... others are much more succinct. We have epic stories and short stories and everything in between. Each has a place. When I am at a conference, I would generally not like to hear longer pieces primarily because it is difficult to really dig into them and understand all of the relationships as they interact. A more succinct piece seems more appropriate to my ears. Yet, at home, when listening to a CD or DVD I crave long and involved pieces that might take a lifetime to comprehend because of the extended intricacies... pieces that sound different every time I listen to them they because I am focusing upon them from a different perspective and so hearing different aspects. Of course this is a gross generalization. The length of a piece does not determine its depth... but it does determine my attention span within a given situation.

For me planning the length of a piece is a contrivance. It is like starting a conversation and saying "ok, I can talk with you for 9 minutes". Some conversations I would prefer to end quite quickly and others might open up to several hours... So I listen to where the piece wants to go and go there with it. Later, when  deciding what to program for performance or presentation, I consider what piece best fits the circumstance in which it is to be presented.

Michael
http://www.perceptionfactory.com

--

Dr. Adrian Moore, Sheffield University, Music Department,

[Bedard martin]

---

Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:44:15 +0200
From: a.j....@sheffield.ac.uk
To: cec-con...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [cec-c] Re: time in electroacoustic music / philosophical lenses on electroacoustic

Dear Ambrose,

On duration of works: Ones musical work should have the duration it requires. The way the work unfolds will be related to the material being worked with. There is a long and documented history of works 'of a certain duration' and it must take a certain amount of time for a composer's musical discourse to be made evident. I doubt there is any audience research that suggests < 15 minutes is good and I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time conducting such research. Why then, after everything a composer does qualitatively to create their work is the quantitative so easy to pounce upon? I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short and I know there's lots of research out there that asks these questions. The answer should have everything to do with intention/reception and the listening process and not be a pre-requisite in the ground rules for a competition, or academic submission. And I understand all the pragmatic reasons behind this yet that's where we stand and many composers will make a piece that fits or happens to fit. So how does it fit? What is the difference between 3,5, 7, 13, 15, 17, 20, 30, 50. Dhomont and Bayle probably know better than I as they have solid examples in all areas. We asked that question a bit during 'From tape to typedef' with a very interesting paper from Jeff C. at the time.

I am asked to assess work and am often asked questions relating quality to quantity. Sometimes I find my guidance a little unsatisfactory. I find it difficult to express what it is I'm listening out for in a work .... in words. 'Creative insight, critical artistic awareness' is meaningless. So I encourage people to listen to a/my selection of music by other composers and get shot down for inculcating a canon! Be that as it may, what do people listen out for and how do they learn the tools to recreate, assimilate and strengthen their own artistic lives? Some say people should forge their own paths and find their own way out of the dark. What a waste of time. I think my job as a lecturer is at least to put a light on never mind shining it in any particular direction!

re: technology. True, back then the gripe wasn't actually at the music but the technology and, IMV despite the comment, the technology has prevailed and its use has matured. I try not to listen technologically but if I'm going to replicate, assimilate and move on, it comes in handy to be able to know why a sound sounds the way it does, where it came from, where it's moving to.
I try not to identify sources and causes but we all do. And I've heard and used water, metals and woods a thousand times (in 12 minute pieces too). It's not the quantity - which is perceived instinctively, but the quality - which is engaged with (or endured) actively. And I don't think proponents of the 'it all sounds the same' theory heard it that way back then.

As for secrets. <joke> At 9 thousand pounds a year, 'stick a limiter in' ... about 2 pence. 'Use a multiband compressor and what's more here's how I use it' .... priceless. </joke>

:)
A.

On 04/15/2013 10:46 AM, ambrose field wrote:

Adrian

2. Less seriously: why ea must be < 15 minutes duration and if so, 

Seriously, why must EA be less than 15 minutes duration? Where is the audience research that might suggest <15 mins is good. There are plenty of excellent long pieces. Yes, there are many good reasons for short pieces - making a concise musical statement is a wonderful thing, but I'm curious as to the facts behind this perception.

pose the question that relates back to 
judgements made about electroacoustic music many years ago, comparing 
pithy comments that it all sounds the same 

More seriously, yes I remember those comments -  \[hard hat going on on now] -  Personally, I think Bob Ostertag absolutely nailed it about ten+ years ago in indicating that the more technology thrown at the problem, the worse the results can be. This might answer factor "c" in your discussion.

Thanks also to anyone that may care to write < 500 about their key 
methods / tips / tricks / contexts / manipulations etc. and send to 

I'm happy to share and help with this. I'm not convinced though that I have any good "secrets" though. Perhaps the real secret is to have fewer "secrets"...everything is less complicated then.

All best - 

Ambrose

On Friday, April 12, 2013 9:57:08 AM UTC+1, Adrian J Moore wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering if anyone can help me with a bibliographic search please.
I am looking for writings that deal specifically with time.

1. Seriously: the nature of time in electroacoustic music, how time
passes/flows, how it relates to space and the perception of the sound
object.
2. Less seriously: why ea must be < 15 minutes duration and if so, how
it (might) determine the amount of spl, highs and lows etc. etc. This
topic has been well discussed before.
3. Even less seriously: how long does it take to make a piece of
electroacoustic music? Has technology helped or hindered the composer?

I am not so worried about the ear/brain echoic memory - STM - LTM
aspects of time as these are all well documented. I'm more interested in
anecdotal thinking and philosophical debates.

And on that note I'm trying to pose the question that relates back to

judgements made about electroacoustic music many years ago, comparing

pithy comments that it all sounds the same (but there may be an ounce of
truth there - it mostly sounds 'like' something else, not itself) with
the observation that a) many are still making it, b) there is an
enormous wealth of originality in sounds that are ostensibly 'the same',
and c) some of the music of the 50s - 00s sounds as fresh today as it
did then (and I can only speak of the music from the 80s and on:)

Thanks in advance for any bibliographic references (especially online
accessible ones) shared on or off list.

Thanks also to anyone that may care to write < 500 about their key
methods / tips / tricks / contexts / manipulations etc. and send to

a.j....@shef.ac.uk. I'm developing a text about music composition for
students at Sheffield. One appendix - soon to be chapter - of which is
'composer recollections'. I'd welcome any/all contributions from
composers that have the time to write and the motivation to share their
secrets (which of course means they won't be secrets - any more).
http://adrian-moore.staff.shef.ac.uk/sonicart_recipesandreasonings.pdf

Best wishes,
Adrian Moore.

--
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Jessop Building, 34 Leavygreave Road, Sheffield. S3 7RD         
[tel] 44 (0)114 2220486  [fax]  44 (0) 114 222 0469
http://www.adrianmoore.co.uk // Personal
http://www.shef.ac.uk/music // Music Department

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Times Higher Education University of the Year 
[tel] 44 (0)114 2220486  [fax]  44 (0) 114 222 0469

http://www.adrianmoore.co.uk // Personal
http://www.shef.ac.uk/music // Music Department

[Bedard martin]

sorry ... unintentional reply

---

From: fjo...@hotmail.com
To: cec-con...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [cec-c] Re: time in electroacoustic music / philosophical lenses on electroacoustic
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 20:05:41 +0000

[David Hirst]

Re: "I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short …"

Many timing issues have been traditionally associated with the body and motion, e.g.. heart beat rate 60 bpm, breathing - the length of a phrase, walking (or marching) - a tempo of 120 bpm. These are all short term percepts, but can be extended into longer forms through things like ritual and dance - that can last all night in some cultures. And culture is the important word here. How time passes is a combination of our own physiology and our cultural experience.

Our culture is ea/cm music, and I think a critical point was reached in the 1950s when Stockhausen introduced the idea of "Moment Form". This notion may have been influenced by Eastern views of time and is quite a contrast with Western Art Music which uses a device dating back to the notion of rhetoric where time ebbs and flows - delimited by periods of tension and release. In theory, if one is listening to a moment form piece, one could enter or exit the performance at any time, whereas a rhetoric work requires that the listener is attentive from the beginning until the end of the work. We could contrast a meditative state of mind as a simile for moment form, whereas rhetorical pieces take the listener on a journey (almost like some sort of narrative).

In terms of our own culture of ea/cm practice, I once asked Denis Smalley where he stood on this issue, and he said his work follows the WesternArt Music approach of a rhetorical tension and release model. But not all practitioners in our field use this device, and indeed may have different approaches to time in different works.

IMHV, short works can be brilliant and profound. Equally, there is also some merit in the argument that ea music composition may not have the same degree of widespread dissemination that the common music genre (instrumental and vocal) has for its vocabulary. Thus many ea works spend their initial moments establishing a vocabulary for the listener to become acclimatised and to latch on to (Landy's something to hold on to factor). This temporal unfurling of a novel sound world can take some time to established before it then embellished.

In summary, I think the critical difference between approaches to time in ea/cm works is the composer's attitude to "moment form" versus "rhetorical form". I think it was Stockahusen who wrote "How Times Passes" in an issue of De Rhie (spelling?, author??), and it would be interesting to go back and have a look at that article now.

With regard to the evaluation of student work, I understand your difficulties - first of all in the evaluation itself, and the way one has to justify one's self to colleagues, say from other music specialisms or non-musical fields. Having had my most recent experience advising other academics from all fields about course and subject design. The principle of "constructive alignment" begins with asking: "What are the Intended Learning Outcomes for a particular subject or exercise within a subject - as far as the student is concerned?" Once the ILOs are clearly stated, then the assessment should be related to those ILOs and should evaluate to what degree the outcomes have been achieved by the student. The teaching and learning activities (TLAs) should relate to the ILOs and the assessment - hence the notion of constructive alignment (see Biggs and Tang). While the evaluation of postgraduate student work will be different, the principles should be the same. The guiding motivation here is pedagogical. Jury evaluation for the awarding of prizes or an audience member's experience of a work are different cases again, and warrant their own discussion.

Some personal anecdotes:

1. Some 20-30 years ago, I went to a concert by the Master sitar player Ravi Shanka, accompanied by tabla. They played two Ragas, the concert finished, and I felt somewhat miffed that the concert was so short considering how involved with the music I was and much I was enjoying it. I looked at my watch only to find they had been playing for an hour and a half - I thought it was only a few minutes.

2. I have been listening to an ea piece, enjoying it, and thinking it was quite a good piece when, actually during the piece, I start to get the feeling the composer has over-exended an idea or the materials. If the idea keeps going, I get agitated and my liking for the work evaporates, i.e. the work has gone on too long (and my life has just got shorter ;-)

Cheers,

David

[Adrian Moore]

If, when writing a work of electroacoustic music (in the broadest sense) we are joining/contributing to
a (social) community of practice,

"Such a concept of practice includes both the explicit and the tacit. It includes what is said and what is left unsaid; what is represented and what is assumed. It includes the language, tools, documents, images, symbols, well-defined roles, specified criteria, codified procedures, regulations, and contracts that various practices make explicit for a variety of
purposes. But it also includes all the implicit relations, tacit conventions, subtle cues, untold rules of thumb, recognizable intuitions, specific perceptions, well-tuned sensitivities, embodied understandings, underlying assumptions, and shared world views. Most of these may never be articulated, yet they are unmistakable signs of membership in communities of practice and are crucial to the success of their enterprises." (Wenger, 1999, 47)

And here, if one is within the community but on the boundary, one is 'almost out': if one is on the periphery one is 'almost in'. Wenger goes on to expand practice within community and identity within practice. It's a fascinating read and reinforces my view that sharing is not a compromise and that works with a very strong identity may be highly worthy but may not necessarily make it into the community! Which is not a bad thing but means that rejection 'on this occasion' is valid without recourse to any written rule on how long or how short. That said, I've heard 'on this occasion' all too often - it's an overused turn of phrase.

Wenger, E. (1999). Communities of practice: Learning, meaning, and identity. Cambridge university press.

On 05/30/2013 03:35 AM, David Hirst wrote:

Re: "I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short …"

Many timing issues have been traditionally associated with the body and motion, e.g.. heart beat rate 60 bpm, breathing - the length of a phrase, walking (or marching) - a tempo of 120 bpm. These are all short term percepts, but can be extended into longer forms through things like ritual and dance - that can last all night in some cultures. And culture is the important word here. How time passes is a combination of our own physiology and our cultural experience.

[Daniel Barreiro]

Hi Adrian,

My Masters (many years ago) was on musical time (in general, not specifically related to EA music), but the dissertation is only in Portuguese... One of the articles about EA music that I used as a reference was "Reflections on the poetics of time in electroacoustic music", by Julio D'Escrivan (1989) - Contemporary Music Review, 3:1, 197-201.

Best wishes,

Daniel.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Adrian Moore <a.j....@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:

Hi,

I am wondering if anyone can help me with a bibliographic search please.
I am looking for writings that deal specifically with time.

1. Seriously: the nature of time in electroacoustic music, how time passes/flows, how it relates to space and the perception of the sound object.
2. Less seriously: why ea must be < 15 minutes duration and if so, how it (might) determine the amount of spl, highs and lows etc. etc. This topic has been well discussed before.
3. Even less seriously: how long does it take to make a piece of electroacoustic music? Has technology helped or hindered the composer?

I am not so worried about the ear/brain echoic memory - STM - LTM aspects of time as these are all well documented. I'm more interested in anecdotal thinking and philosophical debates.

And on that note I'm trying to pose the question that relates back to judgements made about electroacoustic music many years ago, comparing pithy comments that it all sounds the same (but there may be an ounce of truth there - it mostly sounds 'like' something else, not itself) with the observation that a) many are still making it, b) there is an enormous wealth of originality in sounds that are ostensibly 'the same', and c) some of the music of the 50s - 00s sounds as fresh today as it did then (and I can only speak of the music from the 80s and on:)

Thanks in advance for any bibliographic references (especially online accessible ones) shared on or off list.

Thanks also to anyone that may care to write < 500 about their key methods / tips / tricks / contexts / manipulations etc. and send to a.j....@shef.ac.uk. I'm developing a text about music composition for students at Sheffield. One appendix - soon to be chapter - of which is 'composer recollections'. I'd welcome any/all contributions from composers that have the time to write and the motivation to share their secrets (which of course means they won't be secrets - any more). http://adrian-moore.staff.shef.ac.uk/sonicart_recipesandreasonings.pdf

Best wishes,
Adrian Moore.

--
Dr. Adrian Moore, Sheffield University, Music Department,
Jessop Building, 34 Leavygreave Road, Sheffield. S3 7RD        

[tel] 44 (0)114 2220486  [fax]  44 (0) 114 222 0469
http://www.adrianmoore.co.uk // Personal
http://www.shef.ac.uk/music // Music Department

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[richard scott]

On 30/05/2013 13:25, Daniel Barreiro wrote:

Reflections on the poetics of time in electroacoustic music

that looks interesting Daniel.

I have to observe again though, 28 euro for a 24 year article that the author got paid nothing for? It seems such publishers exist only to resist the dissemination of information, and to restrict debate? I hope Julio D'Escrivan will consider putting a PDF online.

Richard

[David Hirst]

Dear Adrian,

I am with you and Etienne Wenger on this one. It is a lovely quote you've selected (and added to) here.

The psychologists would characterise this as a 2D plot of an inverted u-shape (like a hill), where the axes are listener interest vs complexity. As complexity increases, listener interest increases until a tipping point occurs and more complexity results in less interest. The psychologists note that composers are working on the edge of this curve, seeking to extend and push the boundaries. As you say - working on the fringes.

Cheers,

David

[Kevin Austin]

I would prefer:


> How an individual perceives the passage of time is a combination of, among other things, their environment, physiology and cultural experience.



The change is [1] individual, [2] perception, [3] other things, [4] hierarchy of: environment [including altered states of consciousness] > physiology > cultural experience[s].

Removal of "our", making the perception of time an individual perception.


Kevin

On 2013, May 29, at 10:35 PM, David Hirst <dhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Re: "I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short …"
>

> How time passes is a combination of our own physiology and our cultural experience.
>
>

> Cheers,
>
> David
>
>

[Kevin Austin]

The concept of "linear / narrative time" had been challenged in the visual arts in 1912:

and about the same time:

[11]

00

PAR(O) Bronze by gold heard the hoofirons, steelyringing. 

PAR (O) Imperthnthn thnthnthn.

PAR (O) Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips.

PAR (O) Horrid! And gold flushed more.

PAR (O) A husky fifenote blew.

PAR (O) Blew. Blue bloom is on the.

PAR (O) Goldpinnacled hair.

PAR (O) A jumping rose on satiny breast of satin, rose of Castile.

PAR (O) Trilling, trilling: Idolores.

PAR (O) Peep! Who's in the .... peepofgold?

With analysis and commentary:

http://www.columbia.edu/~fms5/ulw11.htm

and in three dimensions:

The meaning of the term "mobile" as applied to sculpture has evolved since it was first suggested by Marcel Duchamp in 1931 to describe the early, mechanized creations of Alexander Calder.^[1] 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_(sculpture)

Stockhausen probably did not know of the work of Henry Cowell: New Musical Resources [1930], 

http://zztt.org/lmc2_files/Cowell_New_Musical_Resources.pdf

or the Elliott Carter String Quartets.

or of Charles Ives Symphony #4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Ives)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbH5ruC-R5E

I mention this because my education included all of the above before hearing of Stockhausen's writings.

Kevin

On 2013, May 29, at 10:35 PM, David Hirst <dhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Re: "I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short …"

[Marc Ainger]

Dear Adrian,

I also like the Wenger quote very much.

In David's reply, though, the word "complexity" always makes me nervous. The issue of what is complex is, as they say, complex.

Morton Felman, of course, was a composer who put his money where his mouth was in terms of  long pieces. He had quite a bit to say about the length of pieces (along the lines of "The world doesn't need another 15 minute piece"). I don't have links at hand, but there are a few interviews available where he talks about the length of pieces. 

And, of course, most of the opera literature is well over 15 minutes. It has the multimedia thing, but it isnt often experienced by people in their homes listening without the non-musical elements. Of course there is narrative, etc, but this may be something worth thinking about...

Marc

--
Dr. Adrian Moore, Sheffield University, Music Department,
Jessop Building, 34 Leavygreave Road, Sheffield. S3 7RD         

[Larry Austin]

Kevin:

And we shouldn't forget the essential time piece: Cage's "4:33", the 

classic "time-equals-spatial-extensity" piece.

Larry Austin

On May 30, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Kevin Austin wrote:

The concept of "linear / narrative time" had been challenged in the visual arts in 1912:

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and about the same time:

[11]

00

PAR(O) Bronze by gold heard the hoofirons, steelyringing. 

PAR (O) Imperthnthn thnthnthn.

PAR (O) Chips, picking chips off rocky thumbnail, chips.

PAR (O) Horrid! And gold flushed more.

PAR (O) A husky fifenote blew.

PAR (O) Blew. Blue bloom is on the.

PAR (O) Goldpinnacled hair.

PAR (O) A jumping rose on satiny breast of satin, rose of Castile.

PAR (O) Trilling, trilling: Idolores.

PAR (O) Peep! Who's in the .... peepofgold?

With analysis and commentary:

http://www.columbia.edu/~fms5/ulw11.htm

and in three dimensions:

<screenshot_15.jpg>

The meaning of the term "mobile" as applied to sculpture has evolved since it was first suggested by Marcel Duchamp in 1931 to describe the early, mechanized creations of Alexander Calder.^[1] 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_(sculpture)

Stockhausen probably did not know of the work of Henry Cowell: New Musical Resources [1930], 

http://zztt.org/lmc2_files/Cowell_New_Musical_Resources.pdf

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or the Elliott Carter String Quartets.

or of Charles Ives Symphony #4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._4_(Ives)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbH5ruC-R5E

I mention this because my education included all of the above before hearing of Stockhausen's writings.

Kevin

On 2013, May 29, at 10:35 PM, David Hirst <dhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Re: "I'm looking to ask (again) questions like, what makes the composer/listener think a work is too long or too short …"

Our culture is ea/cm music, and I think a critical point was reached in the 1950s when Stockhausen introduced the idea of "Moment Form". This notion may have been influenced by Eastern views of time and is quite a contrast with Western Art Music which uses a device dating back to the notion of rhetoric where time ebbs and flows - delimited by periods of tension and release. In theory, if one is listening to a moment form piece, one could enter or exit the performance at any time, whereas a rhetoric work requires that the listener is attentive from the beginning until the end of the work. We could contrast a meditative state of mind as a simile for moment form, whereas rhetorical pieces take the listener on a journey (almost like some sort of narrative).

[David Hirst]

Marc,

You are right to be nervous. I hesitated when writing the word complexity because of all of its many connotations, but it is meant, in this case, as a place-holder. A better description would be "prevalent conventions for the particular genre of a particular culture", but that is a bit long winded for the purposes of my illustration.

The Morton Feldman example is a good one. He and La Monte Young, Henry Cowell, Charles Ives (as Kevin cites) etc, etc, were always pushing at the boundaries.

If it means one has to reside on the fringe - then so be it.

cheers,

DH

[Richard Wentk]

Apocryphally, this is related to the Wundt Curve:

http://www.academia.edu/376973/Artificial_Creative_Systems_Completing_the_Creative_Cycle#

I suspect the curve is more rhetorical than mathematical.

But then I think the idea that 'composers push the boundaries' is also rhetorical, and one of those popular myths of the age.

The boundaries of what, exactly? Culture? Sound? Perceptual psychology? Software design? Consciousness[tm]? Being annoying and confrontational (or perhaps not annoying and confrontational enough)?

Doesn't pop push boundaries too, in its own way?

And so on.

Wenger is only interesting if you can use the quote to consider the tacit conventions and perhaps make them less tacit.

Richard

[peiman khosravi]

The boundaries of what, exactly? Consciousness[tm]?

yes

Doesn't pop push boundaries too, in its own way?

yes!

[peiman khosravi]

Please see this @1':43" and @3':09".   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNTqGRykmCo

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[Kevin Austin]

I think there is an incomplete citation error here, "Consciousness[™]", should read, Used by permission of god.

Kevin

[Marc Ainger]

David,

Agreed! 

This entire thread has been interesting. 

I guess the other question I have is "What counts for a piece longer than 15 minutes?" Are we talking about one movement that lasts longer than 15 minutes, or are we talking about multiple movements that, when taken together, last more than 15 minutes?

[David Hirst]

Thanks Peiman, a good reminder!

Cheers,

David

[David Hirst]

Marc,

Another attitude to time I experienced when I played in an African ensemble led by the late Jeff Pressing. That music really wasn't about beat or meter, or even polyrhythms. it was really about interlocking patterns, played in relation to another sound. In this case usually the bell sound. But that description: "A series of interlocking patterns in reference to another sound." Could also be traditional counterpoint ( or apply equally to some ea music ).

On the assembly of works - the > 15 has been the inspiration of the 60x60, or 100x100 projects ( in the case of the recent 100x Cage anniversary last year). We could also write an opera for each day of the week too, oh, but that's been done already ;)

Cheers,

David