AP jib vs 155% roller furling

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Blair Clark

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Sep 3, 2021, 3:52:03 PM9/3/21
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Hi there,

When we moved from our C&C 30 MkII to our 34+ naturally we noticed a difference in sail size and power.

I had a chat with our sailmaker today that started around pointing capability. I shared that when I got the boat I was unhappy with pointing often less than 40% while running roller furling jib on main walking deck track.

I shared that when I recently moved to the smaller track adjacent couch top I now seem to be closer to 30%.

He started to tell and sell :) me on the virtues of the new APstyle foresails that have a much shorter clew but better formed draft.

Benefits promised are similar power in + 13 knots of wind as the large jib going to wind, perhaps equal or better pointing and much less sail area and therefore winching for older crew to handle.

Downside, off the wind in light winds some reaching speed may be compromised.

Have any of our group switched to the AP style? IOf so I would appreciate hearing thoughts.

Cheers,

Blair

Ben Sutton

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Sep 3, 2021, 6:15:24 PM9/3/21
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Hi Blair,
I found pointing with a 140% sheet on the deck track by the cockpit  pretty good (30 degrees) once I replaced my bagged out one with a laminate. I also bought a 100% which is sheeted right to the block on the coach roof as shown below. It is fantastic in 13+ knots of wind and probably competitive if you make good use of an asymmetric spinnaker. Importantly as you say, there is very little to sheet in when tacking.
 Suffice to say since I have both foresaiI options I switch headsails depending on the weather.
I attach a picture of the boat pointing nicely with the 100%. I don’t know what an AP style is but perhaps it is similar.
Finally I have to give credit to whoever on the user group who pointed me in this direction originally.
Ben Sutton
C&C34+ #15


On Sep 3, 2021, at 12:52 PM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:


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cenelson

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Sep 3, 2021, 6:22:27 PM9/3/21
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Seems reasonable to me—using a 155 Genoa in 13+ knots at usual Genoa track positions ALONG coach roof is likely not to point as well as a smaller jib trimmed closer to centerline with coach TOP track closer to midline clew position.

Downwind you will be hosed without a sail change of course, as you point out.

AP (whatever it’s called) is less relevant than the sheeting angle/sail size available at higher wind speeds IMHO.

OTOH, you would want a big Genoa and larger sheeting angles in light air and you would not be hosed going downwind except by those who fly kites.  

IMHO, its all about the compromises necessary to maximize VMG upwind/downwind with the conditions Mother Nature provides and the boat condition/equipment/sails/crew you provide (and use most efficiently).

Most of the rest from sail vendors is marketing!

FWIW

Charlie Nelson
1995 C&C 36XL/kcb
Water Phantom

Blair Clark

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Sep 3, 2021, 6:55:22 PM9/3/21
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Wow sail shape looks Fanawesome 

Let’s keep comments coming. This group is great.

Thank you for responding.

Blair 
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Ben Sutton

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Sep 3, 2021, 7:20:14 PM9/3/21
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Yes,
Sorry I was showing off just a little.

On Sep 3, 2021, at 3:55 PM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wow sail shape looks Fanawesome 
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Blair Clark

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Sep 3, 2021, 7:41:42 PM9/3/21
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Thanks Ben

Coincidence actually came with quite a nice sail inventory, Brand new drifter light air sail, new blade, new condition 1.5 and 3/4 oz symmetrical spinnakers plus the 153 mylar roller furling and 130% roller furling dacron older.

I am considering helping to finance an AP and A kite by selling the others,

If anyone is interested :)

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Harvey Hauschildt

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Sep 3, 2021, 9:14:45 PM9/3/21
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Like everything in sailing, one needs to decide what you want out of your boat. I chose my boat as a Performance Cruiser. I don’t race unless your in front of me. I do want the boat to go as fast as I can without over stressing the rig. 

You don’t need exotic sails to make our boats go fast. It’s often the sailor more than the equipment that adds speed. If your racing, I take it all back. I’m often enivious of those carbon fiber sales I see until I look at the cost and short life cycles.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 3, 2021, at 3:22 PM, 'cenelson' via C&C 34/36 Owners <cc-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 Seems reasonable to me—using a 155 Genoa in 13+ knots at usual Genoa track positions ALONG coach roof is likely not to point as well as a smaller jib trimmed closer to centerline with coach TOP track closer to midline clew position.

Tim Aseltine

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Sep 3, 2021, 9:24:36 PM9/3/21
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I am also looking at shrinking my sail inventory. I will post more info in the future, once I get them evaluated and talk to a member in the group first.

Sorry for a change in subject.

Tim Aseltine #27

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 3, 2021, at 7:41 PM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:


Thanks Ben

Coincidence actually came with quite a nice sail inventory, Brand new drifter light air sail, new blade, new condition 1.5 and 3/4 oz symmetrical spinnakers plus the 153 mylar roller furling and 130% roller furling dacron older.

I am considering helping to finance an AP and A kite by selling the others,

If anyone is interested :)

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 7:15 PM Ben Sutton <sutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Blair,
I found pointing with a 140% sheet on the deck track by the cockpit  pretty good (30 degrees) once I replaced my bagged out one with a laminate. I also bought a 100% which is sheeted right to the block on the coach roof as shown below. It is fantastic in 13+ knots of wind and probably competitive if you make good use of an asymmetric spinnaker. Importantly as you say, there is very little to sheet in when tacking.
 Suffice to say since I have both foresaiI options I switch headsails depending on the weather.
I attach a picture of the boat pointing nicely with the 100%. I don’t know what an AP style is but perhaps it is similar.
Finally I have to give credit to whoever on the user group who pointed me in this direction originally.
Ben Sutton
C&C34+ #15
<image0.jpeg>


On Sep 3, 2021, at 12:52 PM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi there,

When we moved from our C&C 30 MkII to our 34+ naturally we noticed a difference in sail size and power.

I had a chat with our sailmaker today that started around pointing capability. I shared that when I got the boat I was unhappy with pointing often less than 40% while running roller furling jib on main walking deck track.

I shared that when I recently moved to the smaller track adjacent couch top I now seem to be closer to 30%.

He started to tell and sell :) me on the virtues of the new APstyle foresails that have a much shorter clew but better formed draft.

Benefits promised are similar power in + 13 knots of wind as the large jib going to wind, perhaps equal or better pointing and much less sail area and therefore winching for older crew to handle.

Downside, off the wind in light winds some reaching speed may be compromised.

Have any of our group switched to the AP style? IOf so I would appreciate hearing thoughts.

Cheers,

Blair

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Ben Sutton

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Sep 4, 2021, 1:11:06 AM9/4/21
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For clarification when I talk about using a 100% in 13 knots of wind I am talking true wind and sailing upwind ie. apparent wind speed would be higher. I certainly agree you would want a bigger genoa for lighter winds if you were racing. 
Ben

On Sep 3, 2021, at 3:55 PM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wow sail shape looks Fanawesome 
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Blair Clark

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Sep 4, 2021, 9:24:32 AM9/4/21
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Thanks Ben this is interesting to me. I currently have a ~~153-155% mylar on the roller furler but I have a 130%that I do have not used as it is Dacron but in good shape.

I think I will switch out the roller set up for the smaller and see how I like it as a start.

Cheers

Blair 

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Eric Baumes

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Sep 4, 2021, 9:36:46 AM9/4/21
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Ah, headsails.

Here is my $0.02 based on experience. 

For cruising:
  • I used to use my old #3 ~100% jib as it was the only sail I had with UV cover. I found that it would move the boat nicely (5-6 kts) in any breeze above 7kts at a beam reach to close reach.
  • I picked up a lightly used fairly heavy dacron sail with a high cut clew that I now use for cruising. It doesn't point as well as the #3 but it has more power when reaching. it measures about 130%

For racing:
  • #1 (155%) Up to about 9kts true. 
  • #2 (140%) Up to about 13kts true.
  • #3 (100%) above 12kts true

If I have light crew (4-5 as opposed to 6-8) I may go to a smaller sail sooner. Our boats really start to slow down with excessive heel. 

Around here (hudson river). The #1 gets the most use when racing.

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Blair Clark

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Sep 4, 2021, 10:05:54 AM9/4/21
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Great info Eric really detailed and appreciated…seems like there may be an opportunity to build a 34 Class library on a few subjects race planning may be a start. Sail selection, stay tension etc
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Jack Huttner

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Sep 4, 2021, 11:17:17 AM9/4/21
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Guys, since we're talking about it, here are some notes on sail selection for racing to blow your circuits.  The source of these suggestions is a world-class racer who crewed with me for a long distance race on Lake Ontario (Scotch Bonnet Light Race.)  FYI, the race was held overnight Friday 8/27, in NE 18k/27g conditions with 3-8 ft seas.  Starting in Rochester, we sailed close hauled with a #2 and a reefed main.  Consistently made 6.5-7.5k SOG.  We beam reached home, with wind down to 12k/16g, full sails, barber hauled to toe-rail.  I am sharing it primarily as a contribution to the discussion and to be filed with:  "things I'd add/do with my boat if I had an unlimited budget and wanted to fill my trophy room."  Below is the debrief on sail selection from the expert crew and his recommendations for inventory for LD racing.  (P.S. I'd never heard of a "jib top" but now that I have, I am intrigued.)
  1. Your 150% should be carried to 10kts true.  
  2. Your cruising jib is a #2 132% which will never get you a good pointing angle as a #1 or #3.  My choice again would have been the 100% and full main. Hindsight is always 20/20.  Remember we were not trying to point out, but hold a 50-55degree apparent, which was perfect for the #2, until we got overpowered and had to reef it.
  3. Your A3 is a reaching spinnaker, good 8-20 kts, 75-130 degrees but not good for running, too flat.  Some use it for heavy air running, but it's hard to keep trimmed.
  4. You need an A2 runner, 5-18 kts, .75 ounce cloth max weight, most used spinnaker in inventory.  This will also be your light air reacher, but you cannot carry it as high as a true cut .5 oz A1 reacher. An A1 is a very light air VMG spinnaker. 
  5. You need a Jib Top, should be 135% LP, great for reaching in 12 - 30kts, also great for heavy air running winged out.  Draft is forward, adding more forward power without generating as much heel as the A3.  It can be carried on very close reach. This sail is a secret weapon when you have long reaches with wind consistently greater than 12 kts. A3 is better up to 12 kts unless it is a close reach.  The advantages of the JT are four fold- 
    1. if you get it free flying, meaning that you do not attach it to the forestay, it is an easy launch and takedown.  The current jib can be furled and stay on forestay.  
    2. The sail can be tacked in three different configurations, so you can get more bang for your buck without spending more money (three sails in one) 
      1. Just behind the furler centerline, used as the reaching jib top.
      2. A3 Spinnaker up. Minimum 8kts apparent. Three feet aft of forestay on centerline, this way it adds more power as a "staysail" when the A3 is up.  Helps balance the helm in winds up to 12-15, and moves the JT overlap on the main aft.  This config can add up to 1kt of additional speed, as long as it is setup to have a slight luff.  Never over trim.
      3. Light air 5kts or less, sloppy, bouncy water runner winged out. Tack the sail 3 feet aft on windward toe rail, and wing out.  Will add wind flow behind your main adding performance to your mainsail.   Remains steady, less affected by sloppy mainsail snapping and taking wind from spinnaker or a jib. Can also ease pole forward to reach up a bit, while getting the jib out from behind the main.  Sounds funky, but it works.  Inexpensive VMG sail that can be eased forward or aft to support 180- 80 degrees apparent. 
      4. Heavy air runner, tack behind furler, centerline, and wing out with spinnaker or whisker pole
                  This is my recommendation for minimum inventory:
  • Go Asymmetric and gain 6 seconds (PHRF-LO) a mile across all points of sail. (vs. carrying a symmetrical)
  • The A2 has big,big shoulders, and by not going too deep, this sail will generate a lot of downwind power.
  • #1, #3, A2 (.5 or .75 ounce) runner, JT, Main.
  • A3 reacher. 
  • Next add .9 ounce A4 runner (Necessary if you get your A2 cut as a .5 ounce, an A2 .5 ounce will perform better in lower wind ranges.
  • Next add spinnaker staysail (not always a justified purchase)
  • No need for a code zero, the 135% JT would be a better choice for close
  • reaching, as you have overlapping jibs.
  • A 135% JT has the head size of a 155% genoa.
  • Can be carried in heavy air, where a Code zero cannot.
  • Code Zeros are for non overlapping jib sailboats.


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Blair Clark

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Sep 4, 2021, 12:40:17 PM9/4/21
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Wow now we are getting into it….LOVE IT!!!!!!!!
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David Knecht

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Sep 6, 2021, 11:44:55 PM9/6/21
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Getting back to the question that started this interesting discussion: I still don’t know what an AP jib is??? Did I miss a clarification?  

Also, somewhat related:  I have tracks on the cockpit backrest, presumable for closer sheeting of the genoa.  The boat did not come with anything to go on the track and I have not used them as I was unsure what kind of fairlead would work there.  Does anyone have a working setup?  When do you use it?  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT


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Scott Milligan

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Sep 7, 2021, 9:03:41 AM9/7/21
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I have two tracks on my #9 C&C 34+ Wk, Pepper. The short one on the forward cockpit coaming is for my 155%. I use the long track for my 135% and 95%. For the last two sails I run the sheets from the track leads back through the turning blocks to the primary winches. I don’t have a short track on the forward cabin-top. Interesting, but all sails need to be cut for the intended track lead.
Scott 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 6, 2021, at 11:44 PM, David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

Getting back to the question that started this interesting discussion: I still don’t know what an AP jib is??? Did I miss a clarification?  

Also, somewhat related:  I have tracks on the cockpit backrest, presumable for closer sheeting of the genoa.  The boat did not come with anything to go on the track and I have not used them as I was unsure what kind of fairlead would work there.  Does anyone have a working setup?  When do you use it?  Dave
S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

<pastedGraphic.tiff>

On Sep 3, 2021, at 3:51 PM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi there,

When we moved from our C&C 30 MkII to our 34+ naturally we noticed a difference in sail size and power.

I had a chat with our sailmaker today that started around pointing capability. I shared that when I got the boat I was unhappy with pointing often less than 40% while running roller furling jib on main walking deck track.

I shared that when I recently moved to the smaller track adjacent couch top I now seem to be closer to 30%.

He started to tell and sell :) me on the virtues of the new APstyle foresails that have a much shorter clew but better formed draft.

Benefits promised are similar power in + 13 knots of wind as the large jib going to wind, perhaps equal or better pointing and much less sail area and therefore winching for older crew to handle.

Downside, off the wind in light winds some reaching speed may be compromised.

Have any of our group switched to the AP style? IOf so I would appreciate hearing thoughts.

Cheers,

Blair


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cenelson

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Sep 7, 2021, 10:11:16 AM9/7/21
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I am pretty sure AP is short for All Purpose, generally a 120-140% headsail, perhaps cut with a non-deck sweeping foot.

Charlie Nelson

David Knecht

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Jul 10, 2022, 7:42:15 PM7/10/22
to 'cenelson' via C&C 34/36 Owners
I have been wrestling for a while with too much mast rake which I have been unable to reduce by tightening forestay.  I had a thought about the problem today that it might actually be a mast base problem. My recollection is that the problem began around the time that the boat was stored mast down for the first and only time since I have owned her. 
The question is, is there any adjustment or alternative positioning of the mast at the base.  I have no recollection or photos from when the mast was out, so I don’t know if it can only be set in one place.  
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT



Jack Huttner

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Jul 10, 2022, 7:54:52 PM7/10/22
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I sail a 1996 WK Plus. The mast has no adjustments at the foot. 

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Regards,

Jack

John Seymour

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Jul 10, 2022, 8:24:04 PM7/10/22
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Similar here.  1990 34+.    No adjustment at the mast foot or deck partners.  All adjustments are made with the shrouds and stays.  Not much adjustability typical with the forestay.  Some adjustability with the backstay though unless you replaced an element of the backstay, my guess is what you’re experiencing is differences in setting the shroud turnbuckles.

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