prop options

[Shaun Stevenson]

Hello all, I found a post or two about props for our boats and was curious if there was a consensus on the best prop? just finished a long trip with the family and had to motor a fair bit. I have an old Martec folder and while towing the dinghy the best we could make in flat water was 5 knots. I think it's time for a new prop. what props do you have? happy with them?

thanks

Shaun

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Hi Shaun,

Five knots isn't bad with a folding prop.  I have a two blade MaxProp.  I marked the coupling, so I can set the two blades vertically for racing.  I don't think I get above six knots motoring.  In strong headwinds, and chop, motoring speed can drop to four knots if we are pushing straight into it.  A friend with a Flex-o-fold prop had similar speed results.

 

If I were getting a new prop, I'd probably go for a MaxProp "Easy" Three blade. 

 

Chuck S

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[David Knecht]

I have a three blade MaxProp which has worked well.  Similar speeds to Chuck although I would say 6-7 knots if I push.  I am curious why you align the blades vertically?  I don’t see why it would matter for 2 or 3 blade.  Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

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[Ben Sutton]

I have a three blade max prop. I get 6.3 or so on flat water at 2,600 rpm. I can get more at higher rpm with diminishing returns.

I suspect some of the lower performance people are experiencing might be related to a choked exhaust full of carbon. If you feel your engine is underperforming this might be a place to look, based on the experience of the previous owner of my boat.

Ben Sutton

SV Evangeline 

C&C 34+ 1990

On Sep 1, 2023, at 10:12 AM, David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a three blade MaxProp which has worked well.  Similar speeds to Chuck although I would say 6-7 knots if I push.  I am curious why you align the blades vertically?  I don’t see why it would matter for 2 or 3 blade.  Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

<pastedGraphic.tiff>

On Sep 1, 2023, at 11:54 AM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER <csche...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi Shaun,

Five knots isn't bad with a folding prop.  I have a two blade MaxProp.  I marked the coupling, so I can set the two blades vertically for racing.  I don't think I get above six knots motoring.  In strong headwinds, and chop, motoring speed can drop to four knots if we are pushing straight into it.  A friend with a Flex-o-fold prop had similar speed results.

 

If I were getting a new prop, I'd probably go for a MaxProp "Easy" Three blade. 

 

Chuck S

On 09/01/2023 11:13 AM EDT Shaun Stevenson <shaunste...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Hello all, I found a post or two about props for our boats and was curious if there was a consensus on the best prop? just finished a long trip with the family and had to motor a fair bit. I have an old Martec folder and while towing the dinghy the best we could make in flat water was 5 knots. I think it's time for a new prop. what props do you have? happy with them?

 

thanks

Shaun

 

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[Francois Rivard]

Hi Shaun, 

I've always gotten 6.5 - 7.0 knots with my props / with the Kanzaki trans and 3GM30 engine.  I was getting 6.5+ with my old Martec when the boat was clean.  

I've replaced it with a 2 blade Max Prop Easy a couple years ago and it's been awesome. It gets 7.1 - 7.2 knots in the best of conditions with just me on board. It reliably gets 6.6 -6.8 with the regular crew in moderate chop.  I could get more speed but I set the pitch to allow the engine to rev to 3,4000-3,500 redline to have the gusto when it's really needed like in a storm for example. 

I've experimented with a Flex-O-Fold and it was a vibrating piece of crap with terrible reverse and more vibrations than my old Martec.  Plus the Flex-O-Fold service is all out of Europe with people that return calls when they feel like it and argue with you instead of offering solutions.  I gladly paid shipping to send the POS back to Denmark and got my money back. I'm told It works better on other boats with sail drives and shafts that have a steeper angle / keep the blades further away from the hull. On our boat the resonance off the hull is terrible as the blades come close on the top. Our friend that had one on his 34+ was replacing the cutlass bearing every 2-3 years.  Have you ever replaced yours? Never for me, it's nice and tight / not being vibrated out of existence every time I motor...  

The Max is the opposite: As smooth as can be expected from a 2 blade prop  / efficient - easy to pitch however you like. With a smooth engaging / super strong reverse. 

-Francois

 

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[cene...@aol.com]

Keeping the folded blades vertical vs. other orientations minimizes the drag caused by the usually angled prop shaft. In the worst case, with the blades folded horizontally and at a non-zero angle to the direction of motion, water flowing under the blades is trying to 'lift' the boat and this adds to the drag.

One can argue that it is a small effect but when racing, one tries to get every 1/10 knot of advantage one can. Of course a blown tack can undue this advantage easily!

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb

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[Francois Rivard]

On the Max we align the feathered blades on a vertical plane so the top one is "hidden" behind the strut.  

Some say that the Max 2 blades feathering creates less sailing drag than comparable folder as the hub is shorter / minimizes wetted surface and also doesn't have long folded blades angling up and down with the motion  / adding to the drag... 

-Francois

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[cene...@aol.com]

Ok—I have no ‘…dog in this ‘complaint’…’ and I am hardly a naval architect/engineer.

That written, it looks to me that the culprit in the vibration was likely a prop that was too large and swept out too close to the hull resulting in cavitation, etc. or was improperly pitched, etc.

Before I changed to my Gori geared 2 blade (with immeasurable drag in tank tests), AB Marine insisted that I get an underwater measurement of the distance from the hull where the prop would spin so that it’s diameter and then it’s pitch could be calculated to avoid this problem.

Whether this avoided a cavitation problem or I just got lucky, I don’t know!

However, the prop I have moves the boat at hull speed in flat water and never vibrates. It takes some revs to get way on in reverse but I can manage that—I get going in reverse in open water and drive it into the slip with enough speed for steering, ramming it into forward to practically stop on a dime—OK maybe a dollar bill!

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C&C 36XL/kcb

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Agree.  1/10th of a knot is huge when racing.  Races are won by feet, by a hundreth of a second, sometimes.  1/10th of a knot over a 10 hour distance race is a mile.  In a typical triangle race with 5 legs of a mile each, that would equal a half mile. 

 

Chuck S

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[Francois Rivard]

It's possible the vibration was pitch related. But the worthless Flex O Fold people assured me that their determination for pitch and diameter were "perfect" and refused to try and send different blades.

 I know for a fact it was over-pitched as the engine was laboring and could barely get above 3,000 RPM at full throttle which is 500-600 RPM short of redline and according to Yanmar's dyno chart robbing me 20% of my meager 27 hp. They would hear none of it,  I even emailed a copy of the dyno chart, to no avail. 

From conversations with marine mechanics, prop makers a notorious for over pitching props to make their props appear "More efficient". 

 In any case,  the vibration was unbearable for me,  they wouldn't help,  so I leaned on them until they agreed to take their pos back / refund my money.

-François

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

David,

Here goes.  Probably more than you wanted to know.  A three blade prop is great for greater thrust and better braking.  But when feathered, because of the shaft angle, two blades are always angled to the water flow like an oar dragging in the water.

 

A two blade prop aligned horizontal aligns the blades to the shaft angle and presents added resistance because the blades are angled to the water flow.  The two blade aligned verticle, presents less drag.  I think a folding prop presents the least drag and can be seen on serious top end race boats unless they have a saildrive which are also low drag because they don't have an exposed shaft or strut and they can have a three blade prop with all three blades feathered in line with the water flow.

 

Chuck

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[Blair Clark]

Like several have said I am not as technical as others but here is my experience. When we purchased our boat I immediately noticed that the two blade folding prop appeared under powered when docking. It just did not have that push to swing or stop/start boat.

We purchased a rebuilt max prop from one of our 34 group memebers as the improvement difference was immediate.

For our purposes their is no comparison two blade folding or feathering max prop.

Oh yeah many times when starting to go forward with folding prop we would experience significant vibration. We felt this was due to the blades either not or partially flinging out to position. We would have to stop throttle, change gears and try again.

The max prop is driven by gear action and not centrifugal force so it has to work.

Again advantage max prop.

Hope this helps

Blair

C&C 34+

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Blair,

Can you also talk a little about boat speed under power? 

When motoring, what speed do you use to plan a trip? 

Do you notice any speed drop when pushing into headwinds and chop?

 

Chuck

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[Jack Huttner]

The 17’ 2-blade max prop caused cavitation vibrations on my boat, this continued after the rebuild. Apparently Blair is not having the same problem. I switched to a 16@ 3-bladed AutoProp which has variable self-pitching. It delivered great thrust and speed. Very straight in Reverse. I lost it in the worst circumstances in Bay of Quinte approaching Trenton (for those who know the area.) found a tow out the Murray Canal and sailed hime to Sodus (60nm). Registered my sail plan w the Canadian CG who handed me off to USGC. Wind died so Needed a tow into my marina. Managed to convince the USCG Aux to do it. 

AutoProp is a great prop but you have to put a divot in the shaft to lock the set screw. Manual recommended it. Should have done it but didn’t. 

Now sail w a 16” 3-bladed Max prop. PYI delivered it w 20 deg pitch. I switched it to 22deg. Gives a little more speed. Can make +6k at 2600 in flat seas. Lose half a kt to a full one into the wind and chop at 28-3000 rpms. 

Jack
585-530-9521

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[cene...@aol.com]

Got it. As you said “…for our purposes…” you made the correct decision IMHO.

However, most folding props rely on gears as well, certainly more recent incarnations of them. My Gori 2 blade folder is geared and it has been in place for ~ 10 years with no issues. 

OTOH, probably no folding prop has as much ‘umph’ in reverse as a Max-Prop 3 blade feathering prop. My original prop was a 3-blade Max-Prop and it worked great ‘…for my purposes…’ before I succumbed to a bite from a racing bug.

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C&C 35XL/kcb

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

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[Jack Huttner]

My 3bladed max prop has a lot of prop wash when I’m working in tight quarter. 

Jack
585-530-9521

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[joseph...@gmail.com]

Hi Everyone

Need some help,  I have a 2 blade max prop  and my max RPM with the throttle push forward hard is 2600  which gives me   roughly 5.5Kts boat speed.       Appreciate if some can give me some guide lines how to fix this.

 

Thanks

 

Joe

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[Joseph Suraci]

Hi Francois

Im very exited on  the boat speed and RPMs you getting  from you max prop. Like I said on my earlier email,  my maximum RPM is 2600 and boat speed 5.5 kts.  Can you share with me your pitch setting on your Max prop. 

Thanks 

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 1, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Francois Rivard <jeanfranc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Blair Clark]

It would also be good to know blade length as well as pitch from you and Francois.

Cheers

Blair

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[Jack Huttner]

Joe, that is a pretty significant fall-off from the engine's max RPM of 3600.  PYI, manufacturer of the MaxProp, has been very helpful with technical questions.  I'd give them a call.  

Jack

S/v Sheratan, #86

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[Francois Rivard]

Hi Joe,

I'm assuming you have the Yanmar 3GM30F which is a smaller displacement (900 CC or 0.9 liter size 3 cylinder engine) given its smaller size it needs the revs to make power and has a higher than typical diesel redline of 3,400 RPM for sustained operation (3600 RPM / 27hp max for 1 hour).  It makes max of 24HP at 3,400 RPM so at 2,600 you're closer to 18-19HP. (See the dyno and spec sheets). 

Assuming you have the Yanmar, it sounds like it's way over pitched. Just reduce the pitch.  If it's a Max Easy prop made circa the last 4 or so years you just swap the pitch screw which can be done in the water.  If it's an older one I believe you have to dis-assemble so you'd have to remove it or get the boat in the yard to re-pitch.  

To be honest, I don't remember what my exact pitch setting is, most likely around 11-12 inches (16" diameter) .  All I know is: I get my target of 3,400 RPM in all conditions and 3,500-3.600 when I'm by myself in perfect glassy waters or with some wind on my back. This way I know I'm getting at least 24 HP out of the little sucker to get me out of a jam when I really need it.  Otherwise, the engine is lightly stressed and vibration free at the more typical 2,800-2900 RPM (The Yanmar recommended best RPM for cruising and fuel economy) where I get around 6.2-6.4 knots of boat speed

. 

One more thing: If you don't rev the Yanmar enough you'll likely run into injector fouling issues and other ailments.  Mine was hard to start cold and smoked a good bit when I first got the boat.  It got better with lots of  Diesel Kleen fuel treatment and running it as recommended by Yanmar / running at full throttle for at least 20-30 minutes every now and then. Another thing that Yanmar recommends is running it in neutral at 3500-3600 RPM for a minute or so then idling it for another minute or two before shutting off when you've been running at very low RPM's for an extended period of time to burn off the soot  / keeping it from building-up. I'm one of the few people that actually read the manual cover to cover...  

If you have Universal, ask Chuck or some of the other guys that have that engine.  The Universal is a larger 4 cylinder engine that operates in more typical diesel low RPM range .  

I hope this helps. 

-Francois

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[sbmi...@gmail.com]

Hi All,

I have a 1990 C&C 34+ wk with the Universal M430 engine and a 15” 3 blade classic Maxprop. The PYI recommended I pitch the prop at 18 deg. I thought it was pitched correctly but could get 6 kts at 3000 rpm’s at best.

Does anyone with the Universal engine and a max prop have better luck at a different pitch?

Scott 

SV Pepper

1990 34+ wk

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Hi Scott,

I have a 1989 C&C 34R with Universal diesel.  I installed a two blade 15" MaxProp and set the pitch at 18 degrees per advice from PYI.  I dropped the pitch the following year to 16 degrees and get decent speed.  I get almost 7 knots at 3000 RPM and usually run lower RPMs and maintain over 6 knots with a clean bottom.  If I don't clean the bottom and allow barnacles to grow on the prop and shaft, I have trouble getting to 5 knots.  So I try to keep the bottom clean by diving and scrubbing the bottom and scraping the prop and shaft.

 

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis

 

 

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[Scott Milligan]

Thanks Chuck,

I’m planning on a 16 deg pitch and seeing if that improves my rpm’s and perhaps my top speed 

Scott Milligan

863-228-1159

sbmi...@gmail.com

On Oct 23, 2023, at 8:17 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER <csche...@comcast.net> wrote:



[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Hey Scott,

Just curious, what is your best speed under sail?  Are you seeing higher speeds under sail? 

 

A dirty bottom or just barnacles on the prop and shaft can rob you of 20% speed.  Easily one or two knots.  Florida must have a longer growth season than Chesapeake Bay. 

 

Chuck

 

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[David Knecht]

I also have a 3 blade 15” Maxprop on my 34+.  I looked at my prop info to see what mine is set to and I found that it was X=E and Y=H but I can’t figure out what that actually means in terms of pitch.  The charts list multiple angles for the same letter.  Can someone clarify?  Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

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[joseph...@gmail.com]

 

All

I just broke the bank and bought the  Raymarine Axiom 9+ MFD.      This unit has the ability  to  set laylines based on the  polars  of the boat but unfortunately the Raymarine site does not have them for the C&C34+.   I’m hoping some one in this distribution has them and can send them to me.     

 

Thanks

Karmashaya

Joe

[James Sherk]

Good morning here are the polars in two different formats that I have for my boat. I hope this helps James Pegasus 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 3, 2024, at 11:51 PM, joseph...@gmail.com wrote:



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[Francois Rivard]

Hi James, something looks off on your table.  

1) What is TSW?  TWS is True Wind Speed

2) There's no VMG info on the polars graph for 2, 4, 6, 8, or 12 knots of wind. The arcs are shown for 3,5,7,10,14, and 20 knots. The slowest wind speed arc is 3 knots...  + The likelihood of the boat going 3.5 knots in 2 knots of wind at 45degree true is 0, as per the polar graph: The max boat speed in 3 knots of wind is 3.25 knots at 79 degrees reaching angle which I've seen happen many times.  

-Francois

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[James Sherk]

Good afternoon

that is what came with the boat somebody converted into the laminated sheet with the numbers

The other one is out of the manual maybe we can make some sense of it all with what we actually get

James

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2024, at 11:27 AM, Francois Rivard <jeanfranc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi James, something looks off on your table.  

1) What is TSW?  TWS is True Wind Speed

2) There's no VMG info on the polars graph for 2, 4, 6, 8, or 12 knots of wind. The arcs are shown for 3,5,7,10,14, and 20 knots. The slowest wind speed arc is 3 knots...  + The likelihood of the boat going 3.5 knots in 2 knots of wind at 45degree true is 0, as per the polar graph: The max boat speed in 3 knots of wind is 3.25 knots at 79 degrees reaching angle which I've seen happen many times.  

-Francois

On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 9:51 AM James Sherk <james...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good morning here are the polars in two different formats that I have for my boat. I hope this helps James Pegasus 

<image0.jpeg>

<image1.jpeg>

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 3, 2024, at 11:51 PM, joseph...@gmail.com wrote:



 

All

I just broke the bank and bought the  Raymarine Axiom 9+ MFD.      This unit has the ability  to  set laylines based on the  polars  of the boat but unfortunately the Raymarine site does not have them for the C&C34+.   I’m hoping some one in this distribution has them and can send them to me.     

 

Thanks

Karmashaya

Joe

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[Francois Rivard]

I had the original one as well and made one that's easier to read on the fly.  I also have it laminated and posted in the cockpit for quick reference when racing. The wind speeds are the funny looking arcs. 

-Francois

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[Joseph Suraci]

Thanks Francois

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2024, at 3:31 PM, Francois Rivard <jeanfranc...@gmail.com> wrote:



I had the original one as well and made one that's easier to read on the fly.  I also have it laminated and posted in the cockpit for quick reference when racing. The wind speeds are the funny looking arcs. 

<C-C_34_Plus_Polars_Angles.jpg>

-Francois

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