weather helm

[Shaun Stevenson]

Hello all, new the group. I bought our 1990 C&C 34+ two years back and just started casual racing last year. The boat came with a racing main (old kevlar large roach) and a 150 Genoa (also on the old side). I find if the true wind is climbing over 12 knots I get a significant weather helm. Last night we had 15-18 true and I had to reef the main but still had rather significant weather helm. My question to the group is do these boats generally have more weather helm? possible rigging adjustments needed? thoughts?

cheers

Shaun

Victoria BC

Navigator 1990 C&C 34+

[Francois Rivard]

Hi Shaun, 

I have a completely neutral helm (As in: not touching the wheel for along time) hard on the wind in 10-12 true flying a (Admittedly far more modern) 152 genoa and roachy / fairly deep main. With my 'Winter" setup. 

The main adjustment is Mast rake. If you have too much weather helm it's because you have too much rake. You should try about 10 inches at the gooseneck. 

Weather helm  / Tuning http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/other/racetrim/pointing.htm

General Tuning Tips  http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/indexes/tuningndx.htm

Tuning the mast  and rake - http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/masttuning/tuning.htm

Keep in mind that up to a point 

- more rake = more power in the rig. 

- Some weather helm is good as the foils are designed to with that way

Finally_ too much weather helm forces your rudder and keel to become a brakes  caused by the drag induced by the boat crabbing / fighting you trying to go upwind.  

Good luck with it. 

-Francois

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Hi Shaun,

Welcome to the C&C 34/36 owners group.

 

The key driver is wind speed and in my limited experience, these boats were meant to be sailed flat.  The sweet spot is around twenty degrees of heel.  Crew are needed on the rail if using the 150% and 140% jibs and when powered up, you need the entire crew out of the cockpit and on the windward rail to keep her flat.  My boat was raced by the PO with a crew of ten and eight to nine were on the rail to sail upwind.  I raced with a smaller crew of five and found I was fast with a 140% jib and four guys on the rail.  I marked my wheel with colored tape to prevent me slowing the boat with too much helm.  I use white for center, green for one spoke about 4 degrees rudder, yellow for the next spoke and red for the next.  My mainsheet trimmer would watch the wheel and adjust the traveller and sheet to prevent me steering in the red.  We raced most of the time in light winds and I never really got the tune evolved for high winds because we rarely had those conditions. 

 

I've since moved the boat and if I race it's solo or doublehanded so it's not the same.  The group has some serious racers and a great deal of knowledge to share.

 

Please share your vessel's HIN (it's molded into the hull near the transom or found on your insurance papers) so I can add your boat to my list of C&C 34/36s.

 

Thanks,

Chuck Scheaffer 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis

 

 

 

   

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[Rod Desborough]

Amen about marking the wheel to stay out of the “red” brake zone - main sheet trimmer prevented stepping on the brake - most of the time.

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

I can add that I sailed my 6'3" keel against a wing keel model and he said I pointed higher but I really had to work to stay ahead of him and I owed him time so the design is very well thought out and very competitive.  

 

We cleaned the bottom before every race and that made all of our sails fast.  We raced Saturdays and I bought a Hookah and I would dive on from the boat on Thurday after work and scrub the bottom, so my ears were clear for the race. The few times I missed doing this, we suffered terribly.

 

Chuck S

 

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[Francois Rivard]

About pointing high... 

I just had my boat fine tuned by a pro sailor dude who had C&C support to race his 99 when they came out several years back.   

It's a revelation.  He measured everything to mm precision as an example: We found that I need to drill new holes in my port aft starboard genoa block track is it's 0.5 inch off from the other side. With the new holes then each side will be identical.  

Every boat is different / they all have manufacturing differences when you measure all triangles to mm level. 

Also, he measured the tension with a rod rigging loos gauge (An $1,800 + item these days) and fine tuned everything accordingly then we measured the distance between the screws on the turnbuckles. Again: mm precision.  And gave me # of turns adjustments suggested for wind ranges and I know the exact spread to get back to best practices starting point... 

My shrouds were overall much too loose in the past. 

Result:  I was pointing upwind to 24-26 degrees apparent without losing power on Wednesday night...  That's a full 3-4 degrees better than I ever was ever able to do in the past and the boat was fast as heck / pretty much out-pointing everyone, including my buddy with his deep keel 99. He tried to chase me after the start and had to tack away :-) 

Also, much looser forestay / backstay tension = more power for light winds.  I'd say there's about 1.5 feet of "swing" in the forestay now if you move it around. 

Now I need to re-learn my start timing again and we need to get smooth with handling the new asym (Pictures coming soon on that)

Highly recommended / money well spent / don't tell your competition... :-) 

-Francois

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 2:29 PM CHARLES SCHEAFFER <csche...@comcast.net> wrote:

I can add that I sailed my 6'3" keel against a wing keel model and he said I pointed higher but I really had to work to stay ahead of him and I owed him time so the design is very well thought out and very competitive.  

 

We cleaned the bottom before every race and that made all of our sails fast.  We raced Saturdays and I bought a Hookah and I would dive on from the boat on Thurday after work and scrub the bottom, so my ears were clear for the race. The few times I missed doing this, we suffered terribly.

 

Chuck S

 

On 06/02/2023 2:19 PM EDT Rod Desborough <desbo...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Amen about marking the wheel to stay out of the “red” brake zone - main sheet trimmer prevented stepping on the brake - most of the time.

On Friday, June 2, 2023, CHARLES SCHEAFFER <csche...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi Shaun,

Welcome to the C&C 34/36 owners group.

 

The key driver is wind speed and in my limited experience, these boats were meant to be sailed flat.  The sweet spot is around twenty degrees of heel.  Crew are needed on the rail if using the 150% and 140% jibs and when powered up, you need the entire crew out of the cockpit and on the windward rail to keep her flat.  My boat was raced by the PO with a crew of ten and eight to nine were on the rail to sail upwind.  I raced with a smaller crew of five and found I was fast with a 140% jib and four guys on the rail.  I marked my wheel with colored tape to prevent me slowing the boat with too much helm.  I use white for center, green for one spoke about 4 degrees rudder, yellow for the next spoke and red for the next.  My mainsheet trimmer would watch the wheel and adjust the traveller and sheet to prevent me steering in the red.  We raced most of the time in light winds and I never really got the tune evolved for high winds because we rarely had those conditions. 

 

I've since moved the boat and if I race it's solo or doublehanded so it's not the same.  The group has some serious racers and a great deal of knowledge to share.

 

Please share your vessel's HIN (it's molded into the hull near the transom or found on your insurance papers) so I can add your boat to my list of C&C 34/36s.

 

Thanks,

Chuck Scheaffer 1989 C&C 34R, Annapolis

 

 

 

   

On 06/02/2023 12:23 PM EDT Shaun Stevenson <shaunste...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Hello all, new the group. I bought our 1990 C&C 34+ two years back and just started casual racing last year. The boat came with a racing main (old kevlar large roach) and a 150 Genoa (also on the old side). I find if the true wind is climbing over 12 knots I get a significant weather helm. Last night we had 15-18 true and I had to reef the main but still had rather significant weather helm. My question to the group is do these boats generally have more weather helm? possible rigging adjustments needed? thoughts?

 

cheers

Shaun

 

Victoria BC

Navigator 1990 C&C 34+

 

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[Shaun Stevenson]

Thank you so much for the info and ideas. I will be measuring the rig next week to see where it is at. On another note, i will sadly rarely have 4+ crew on the rail, so it sounds like I should have a small headsail? Locally someone is selling a used c&c 34+ #3 genoa which they list as fair to good condition. Wondering if even a fair condition smaller sail may help me. Would love to buy a new one but not in the budget these days. I did buy a code zero and furler setup last year as wanted to have 
an option for cruising in light wind which we see here in the  gulf islands in the summer months. I also modified my A2 asym to also be on the furler in top down mode. Had a heck of a time getting a good projection away from the forestay to avoid the asym fouling on the furled genoa. Many ups and down the mast adding spinnaker crane options until i think i now have a solution.  Anyone else using a furler for thier asym? 

[Shaun Stevenson]

Hi Chuck, my hull number is zcc34+14J990

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

You probably know that some PHRF will give you a credit for headsail less than 130% or 139%.  Check your PHRF rules.

 

Curious about your masthead crane.  Can you share photos?  Was it something you had custom made?

 

Chuck S

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[David Knecht]

Hi Shaun- Like others, I race my 34+ single handed (sometimes double) with a 110 genoa.  I find it to be plenty of sail to power the boat up and not overpower me in most situations.  I used to use a 145%, which was a PITA to handle.  I switched to the 110 exclusively last year and have been surprised at how well the boat performs on the race course.  The change increased my PHRF to 133 so I feel reasonably competitive with that rating.  Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

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[Tim Aseltine]

Hi David.

What was your rating with the 145?

Tim

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 3, 2023, at 3:14 PM, David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Shaun- Like others, I race my 34+ single handed (sometimes double) with a 110 genoa.  I find it to be plenty of sail to power the boat up and not overpower me in most situations.  I used to use a 145%, which was a PITA to handle.  I switched to the 110 exclusively last year and have been surprised at how well the boat performs on the race course.  The change increased my PHRF to 133 so I feel reasonably competitive with that rating.  Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

<pastedGraphic.tiff>

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[James Sherk]

I David

I also have a 34+7.3 draft I use a 132% jib that North sails recommended at the time 

 higher wins does very well. Winds around 8 does alright 

The real question is why are all these ratings all over the map
James 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 3, 2023, at 3:26 PM, Tim Aseltine <timas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi David.

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[John Noble]

I am using a furled A2 on my 36.    With a crane on the mast it’s all good

Also selling my Dacron m

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Sincerely,

John M. Noble

Direct line 604 669 9755

[Shaun Stevenson]

the masthead crane is not custom. I originally started with a call to offshore spares and they recommended their U bolt style crane. I gave that a go first but it would only project beyond the mast 3-4 inches. I kept having the furling sails foul on the Genoa. I then started over and added a small anchor roller atop the mast. When looking at many custom masthead cranes they started to look, to me anyways, like an anchor roller so I thought let's try that. Cheaper than getting something custom. The roller projects about 6 inches and when coupled with the bowsprit I added I have enough room now.  It seems to work well however I have only used with Asym not the code zero yet. I imagine when under the load of the code zero that will be the test if this solution works. 

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

The anchor roller is a great idea to project the topdown furler's upper swivel away from the genoa upper swivel.  Did you angle it to one side?  I'd probably have to remount my wind sensor on top of the crane.  Got any pics?

 

Thanks,

Chuck 

[John Noble]

My mast crane was offset 45% to avoid the genoa upper swivel.

The tack is attached to the forward end of the anchor roller.

Works well.

At first I worries that having the crane point out to starboard was a mistake, as we usually hoist the spinnaker on teh port side when passing the upwind mark, but it doesn't cause a problem.

But you certainly cannot have the crane go straight forward.   You would get gear interfering with each other.

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Interesting thread. 

Your crane is offset 45 degrees starboard, but you use port halyard to hoist a furled assymetric?  Sounds like a lot of friction.  I must be missing something.  Are your halyards crossed inside the mast?

 

Chuck S

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[John Noble]

The reason is was set up that way was to avoid halyards crossing inside the mast.    the halyard enters the mast, five feet up, on the starboard side.   So exiting it on the starboard side of the mast, the same side, at the top, prevents lines crossing and rubbing, inside the mast.

At the top of the mast, a small block hangs from the crane and the spinnaker halyard runs through that.    It projects out a few inches beyond the genoa hardware.

but it doesn't touch anything.   I suppose if the spinnaker halyard was slack it might, but we keep it taut.

And sometimes we do hoist the spinnaker on the starboard side.   this time the halyard does not cross over the genoa hardware.

But it does not seem to make any difference.

If it mattered, we could run a port and a starboard halyard, but this way is simpler.

[James Sherk]

Hi guys

I’ve only use my spinnaker on the port side , when I do fly my drifter in a sock  from the starboard.

I do have a Furler for my jib

I have never had a problem, but I always do wind up the gym first before I deploy my spinnaker, which I’m out on the port side rail in a bag and I deploy it from there. I have had my drifter tangle on my fore stay and mostly because of my nonsense

I have not modified the top of my mast for either of those two extra 

Halyards 

When I retrieve my spinnaker, I bring it down in the front hatch before I deploy my jib 

I had to put a pulley on my mast down from the top to prevent tangles on my Furler, but only rolling in and out, and I do find that the extra two halyards have to be tight to the mast when I’m using the furler

I have no extension on the top of my mast for the spinnaker

I do fly my spinnaker up to 35 kn and not had a problem

James

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2023, at 3:28 PM, John Noble <john.m...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

I sail solo a lot and learned a trick with my spinnaker halyards you may know.

At the dock, I store my spin halyards clipped to the bow pulpit.    But before leaving the dock to go sailing, I unclip each  spinnaker halyard and flick it behind the spreaders and clip into a loop of line I keep behind the shroud turnbuckles.  I unclip the polelift from the deck padeye and clip it into the mast collar, then I go back to the pit and tension each line so their are no spin halyards or surprises unfurling or furling the genoa.

 

Chuck

 

 

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

I sail solo a lot and learned a trick with my spinnaker halyards you may know.

Before leaving the dock to go sailing, I unclip each spinnaker halyard from the pulpit (where they are stored) and flick them behind the spreaders and clip their schackle into a loop of line I keep behind the shroud turnbuckles.  I unclip the polelift from the deck padeye and clip it into the mast collar, then I go back to the pit and tension each line so there are no surprises unfurling or furling the genoa.  It's part of the ritual I perform while the engine is warming up before I leave the dock. 

 

 

Chuck

[Tracy Tower]

Yep do the same

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[Shaun Stevenson]

So i measured the rig and mast is in column and rake was within spec. I had a fair bit of slop in the forestay so measured max backstay tension to  straighten it out and made a mark. Took it out racing twice this week and maxed out the backstay to my mark and still had rather poor weather helm. Any gust over 15knots would heel the boat over 20 degrees and up we went. 

It must be rather worn out genoa. I found the purchase receipt in the boat documents and it was from 2007. I really can’t expect great sail shape on a 16 year old sail. So i bit the bullet and bought a used (good condition) carbon sail that has very similar rig dimensions to our boats. A little smaller so would be equivalent to a 100% blade. $700 seemed reasonable given a guy a few slips down from me bought a new laminate sail locally for $6000!

Now a couple questions for you guys. I noticed in a few older threads those of you who sail with 100% ish sail use the cabin top tracks. My boat does not have them. Not sure why and i cannot see any signs they were ever there. So i would use the other tracks closer to the cockpit and need a barber hauler setup. Anyone do this? I also race on a J109 and that is what we need to do on that boat when using a blade jib. was thinking of replicating that setup unless anyone here has another solution?

[Blair Clark]

Hi David,

Does the 110% sheet inside your stays to the cabin top?

I am looking at downsizing my roller jib to a 100 or 110 and want to stay inside stay sheeting. Do you know your dimensions of sail?

Blair

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[David Knecht]

I use the same tracks outside the shrouds that I use for the larger genoa, with the cars pulled forward.  I have been looking for used cars for the cockpit back tracks, but haven’t found any yet so I can’t try that.  I know that Francois uses the inner ones for his genoa in some conditions.  

My 110% genoa is:

 J=14.8 and LP=16.27’

David Knecht

Rear Commodore

Thames Yacht Club

New London, CT

On Aug 22, 2023, at 11:37 AM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi David,

Does the 110% sheet inside your stays to the cabin top?

I am looking at downsizing my roller jib to a 100 or 110 and want to stay inside stay sheeting. Do you know your dimensions of sail?

Blair

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 4:14 PM David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Shaun- Like others, I race my 34+ single handed (sometimes double) with a 110 genoa.  I find it to be plenty of sail to power the boat up and not overpower me in most situations.  I used to use a 145%, which was a PITA to handle.  I switched to the 110 exclusively last year and have been surprised at how well the boat performs on the race course.  The change increased my PHRF to 133 so I feel reasonably competitive with that rating.  Dave

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

<pastedGraphic.tiff>

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[Ben Sutton]

I participated in an old thread on this. I got a 100% low cut jib. It goes on the coach roof track inside the shrouds. However, it could equally well go at the front of the lower deck track.

The advantages are superb upwind close pointing performance and very little sheet to pull in when tacking. This makes it both easier and faster when racing upwind. I find short tacking my 135% genoa with a higher cut clew takes longer and is a disadvantage when compared to many of the fractional rig boats out there.

The only downside of the 100% is that it is very hard to fly wing on wing downwind and obviously if there isn’t a lot of wind one is somewhat slower reaching. As Blair says using an asymmetric can get round this problem.

If I was only going to use one jib for cruising a higher cut 110% with a foam luff for furling in strong wind, is a good option also and it is more versatile downwind.

I attach my favourite picture to show the 100% in action. You can see it is sheeted down to the clew on the inside track.

Ben sutton

SV Evangeline 

C&C 34+ 1990

Salt Spring Island BC

On Aug 22, 2023, at 9:33 AM, David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

I use the same tracks outside the shrouds that I use for the larger genoa, with the cars pulled forward.  I have been looking for used cars for the cockpit back tracks, but haven’t found any yet so I can’t try that.  I know that Francois uses the inner ones for his genoa in some conditions.  

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[Blair Clark]

The foam luff is something that I have not considered but would like to learn more about.

Just what is its purpose and why does it make heavy air sailing easier?

On a similar note does anyone use vertical battens?

thanks,

Blair

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