Fuel filters

[Ernie Bubb]

First some context. Having some difficulties with the Yanmar 3YM30 engine on my 2011 Catalina 355 — engine RPMs fluctuation. Yard maintenance assessed problem as injector pump, which I have had rebuilt. Still having difficulties which occur mostly at higher RPM (2500) but not at lower RPMs (1500). New primary and secondary fuel filters. Fuel appears clean in bowl of filter.

I am using a Racor R20T primary fuel filter which was the type installed when I bought the boat last July. I understand that filters to 10 microns. I have seen information on web that Yanmar recommends the primary filter to 30 microns. Can anyone tell me what is standard on the C 355s and whether a 10 micron primary could cause some loss of RPMs at higher engine levels?

Regards,

Ernie Bubb

Sent from my iPad

[Ken Kloeber]

The problem about fine primary filtering is that it will clog up before the secondary fiikter.   In essence OEM filtering on a boat is a$$ backward.   The first filter should be coarser than the final filter and most secondary filters (using published tested beta ratios) are rated at 20u - 30u “absolute”; lower values “nominal” efficiency. 

See this info (which is for our Universals but points out the range of efficiencies.)

https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Replacement_Filters,_Belts,_and_Lubricants#Diesel_Fuel_Filters

Ken K

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On May 26, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Ernie Bubb <erni...@gmail.com> wrote:

First some context. Having some difficulties with the Yanmar 3YM30 engine on my 2011 Catalina 355 — engine RPMs fluctuation. Yard maintenance assessed problem as injector pump, which I have had rebuilt. Still having difficulties which occur mostly at higher RPM (2500) but not at lower RPMs (1500). New primary and secondary fuel filters. Fuel appears clean in bowl of filter.

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[Ernie Bubb]

Thanks Ken -

So I infer from your comments that I should use a primary filter rated at 30 microns. Is that correct?  Do you know what the original equipment filter is on C355s?

Thanks

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On May 26, 2022, at 2:43 PM, 'Ken Kloeber' via Catalina355 <catal...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The problem about fine primary filtering is that it will clog up before the secondary fiikter.   In essence OEM filtering on a boat is a$$ backward.   The first filter should be coarser than the final filter and most secondary filters (using published tested beta ratios) are rated at 20u - 30u “absolute”; lower values “nominal” efficiency. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/B311E3DF-5D71-4EF8-B745-0EE4AFB0628D%40aol.com.

[Juan Galan]

Using a 10 micron on a primary should not cause the problem you are describing. If you changed both primary & secondary filters and are having a problem at higher RPM, it is either fuel flow or air flow. Have you removed air filter to see how clean it is? If it just came out of storage during winter, you might even have some cobweb or similar, blocking air flow needed for higher RPM use!

If air filter is clean then it is possible that something in your fuel pump has reduced fuel flow at higher RPM[i.e., fuel flow restriction].

I have run larger diesel engines than a Yanmar 30hp with 10 micron primaries- no problem!

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[Ken Kloeber]

Ernie

I'm not qualified to speak to yanmar and what they recommend. That said I've not seen a recommendation from Parker-Racor about any issue using a 20u on the primary.   Their warning was more related to finer filtering (4u and 10u) on the primary. 

What filter number is OEM?

The **proper** filtering would be to reverse the filters, which we can do on our Universals.  I may eventually bolt the secondary filter bracket off-engine and plumb to it first.  

Then I can filter 25u ~> 10u or 4u, which is admittedly overkill. 

Filters shouldn't be on-engine because the rated efficiency depends on developing a filter cake and engine vibration hurts that process!

Ken K

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On May 26, 2022, at 2:58 PM, Ernie Bubb <erni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Ken -

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[Michael]

Ernie,

Do you hear the engine change RPM and / or notice the tach fluctuate?  Do lower RPMs last or does it recover?  Does it do in neutral at the dock?

-Michael

[george johnson]

I’ve been running a Racor R20P 30 micron filter for 6 years on my 2014 C355 with Yanmar 3YM 30 engine…….no problems……

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[Ernie Bubb]

Thanks for answering. I hear the engine drop and also see the tack go down. At 2500 it drops maybe 300-400 RPMs then will recover then repeat a couple minutes later. It has never happened in neutral  if I drop to 1500 then it is stable   Since the injector pump was rebuilt it has only happened on the water under load, but I haven’t tested it at dock tied up under load. Planning to do that this weekend. 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 26, 2022, at 3:54 PM, Michael <michael.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ernie,

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[Ernie Bubb]

George - thanks

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On May 26, 2022, at 5:34 PM, Ernie Bubb <erni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for answering. I hear the engine drop and also see the tack go down. At 2500 it drops maybe 300-400 RPMs then will recover then repeat a couple minutes later. It has never happened in neutral  if I drop to 1500 then it is stable   Since the injector pump was rebuilt it has only happened on the water under load, but I haven’t tested it at dock tied up under load. Planning to do that this weekend. 

[Jon Vez]

You may want to check the bleed screw on the secondary filter, particularly the crush washer which should be replaced whenever the engine is bled through that screw.

When running the engine take a flashlight and look for bubbles or fuel when revved up at the dock…

Your filter micron size shouldn’t be a factor unless you have dirty fuel and the are clogging right away. If you haven’t already I highly recommend swapping out the OEM metal bowl for a clear one…

Good luck…

Sent from my iPad

On May 26, 2022, at 5:34 PM, Ernie Bubb <erni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for answering. I hear the engine drop and also see the tack go down. At 2500 it drops maybe 300-400 RPMs then will recover then repeat a couple minutes later. It has never happened in neutral  if I drop to 1500 then it is stable   Since the injector pump was rebuilt it has only happened on the water under load, but I haven’t tested it at dock tied up under load. Planning to do that this weekend. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/F7CE1E1B-FDE5-41F3-8CF5-E22048C67685%40gmail.com.

[Jeff Hare]

Maybe, but there is a flaw in that logic.  The engine filter is tiny and only intended for injector protection. It has very little surface area.

All the important filtering should be done at the primary, leaving the engine filter to catch debris from a primary filter change.

If you get bad fuel and filter at 30u primary, I would expect the tiny engine filter to clog super fast, and at that point you won't really know which needed to be changed without a vacuum gauge installed.

Since this will never happen at the dock, I would prefer to never have to change both to get running again.

My opinion.

Jeff

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[Ken Kloeber]

Jeff

As I said  I’m not familiar with  what’s on the Yanmar.  I’d hazard a guess that my Universal secondary has at least (or more?) filter media than my Racor cartridge. 

If there’s a blockage I doubt  that I’d change one and not the other.  It’s cheap insurance. 

Not sure what you mean by “only intended for injector protection”.

Thats the only reason for either filter!

I’ve also thought of tossing the engine filter and using a coarse and fine Racor, sorta like many diesel equipment are filtered

Ken K

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On May 26, 2022, at 7:20 PM, Jeff Hare <Cata...@thehares.com> wrote:

Maybe, but there is a flaw in that logic.  The engine filter is tiny and only intended for injector protection. It has very little surface area.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/1653607214065.69570bf107f042e9%40thehares.com.

[Delbert Patterson]

Perhaps you have a small vacuum leak somewhere in the fuel line, or in the lift pump, which would allow air to be drawn in with the fuel.  Higher engine load means higher fuel flow rates and higher vacuum head on the fuel line.

Del Patterson

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[Delbert Patterson]

Also, fuel hoses are known to deteriorate from the inside out.  Perhaps a fuel hose is collapsing internally and restriction flow at higher engine loads.

Del

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[Ernie Bubb]

Thanks to all. Very helpful. 

Ernie

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On May 26, 2022, at 10:54 PM, Delbert Patterson <delbert....@att.net> wrote:



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[Allen Barnes]

My prior sailboat, C-350, was delivered with a Racor 500 fuel filter. My new 355 [#170] is not equipped with this type of filter.

I was curious if anyone has replaced their factory installed canister type primary engine fuel filter with a Racor 500 fuel filter, assuming the fuel filter closet would accept this install? 

While I have not had to replace my canister type filter, I can not imagine monitoring or changing fuel filters will be as efficient as if i had a Racor 500 fuel filter. This is based on my 13 years experience with the Racor 500 on my C-350.

Allen Barnes

l

[Marvin Isgur]

This is my Racor.  It’s located in the head storage area near the seawater intake. 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 2, 2023, at 2:34 PM, Allen Barnes <allsai...@gmail.com> wrote:

My prior sailboat, C-350, was delivered with a Racor 500 fuel filter. My new 355 [#170] is not equipped with this type of filter.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/9b8fbc17-c36a-4bb2-b1a4-3b3a3d967223n%40googlegroups.com.

[bill pittore]

I’d be curious to see what that filter looks like. On my boat (#77) it came with a Racor 230RMAM filter and I usually use the R20T elements which are 10 micron.

Bill

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[Marvin Isgur]

This is a 30 micron.  It comes in a metal non removable cylinder 

Sent from my iPhone

On May 2, 2023, at 3:43 PM, bill pittore <bill.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’d be curious to see what that filter looks like. On my boat (#77) it came with a Racor 230RMAM filter and I usually use the R20T elements which are 10 micron.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/6BD846FF-8DF5-4747-BBC4-31699DD8F16D%40gmail.com.

[hvb...@gmail.com]

I have hull number 158. Rancor R20P is a replacement 30 micron filter that fits without issue. 

HVB

Sent from the field. 

On May 2, 2023, at 5:45 PM, Marvin Isgur <kir...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

This is a 30 micron.  It comes in a metal non removable cylinder 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/3A9E7DF1-BC87-4C18-9115-55C9B73DAFB2%40sbcglobal.net.

[David Everett]

Hi Ernie - your engine's symptoms may also indicate that your exhaust elbow is almost blocked - it is prone to scale build up where the sea water enters the elbow. Its a recommended replacement part every 3 years or so. It eventually ends up 'strangling' the engine. (Learnt this the hard way!)

There are post to this Group about it - search for Exhaust elbow.

The elbow needs to come off to check, and I don't recommend trying to get it cleaned out - just install a new one.

Cheers

David (#62, South Australia)

[Ernie Bubb]

Thanks David. Turns out the the final solution was to have fuel tanks professionally cleaned and fuel polished. After that, no problems with engine.  Hopefully this will continue. 

Ernie

Sent from my iPad

On May 6, 2023, at 3:31 AM, David Everett <davidse...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ernie - your engine's symptoms may also indicate that your exhaust elbow is almost blocked - it is prone to scale build up where the sea water enters the elbow. Its a recommended replacement part every 3 years or so. It eventually ends up 'strangling' the engine. (Learnt this the hard way!)

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