Should newly created "old school" products need to look old school?
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Mangus
Jul 27, 2009, 11:47:24 PM7/27/09
to Castles & Crusades
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SmsgDGXmKiI/AAAAAAAABMw/y6PYZVHqtXw/s1600-h/Curse+of+the+Chateau+Full+Cover+-+Lo+Rez.jpg
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/07/playtesters-needed.html
This thread is not C&C specific, sp please bear with me. It is geared
more toward the Old School Gaming movement, which includes C&C (the
best old school inspired games out there IMO), so it is still on
topic... in a roundabout way.
I have two links listed above. The first is a link to the cover for a
new module being put out by Rogue Games (makers of Colonial Gothic).
This adventure is tagged for Old School Gaming, which means it is
compatible with any of the old editions of D&D or their clones. It was
written and I believe the artwork was created by James Maliszewski
(the Grognardia blog). The second link will take you to the blog post
itself.
The reason I am sharing this is because of the community outcry this
has generated. As most of you know many of the old school products
coming out look like cheap knockoffs of original TSR products. He
posted the pic on his blog to get feedback, and in general he is
getting good response, but there are those in the Old School Movement
that feel the cover is not "retro enough". James responded, "That's
the point."
I personally agree with his approach, and feel new products should
utilize modern layout methods and up to date graphics. Aping the old
TSR modules and rulebook covers was cool the first few times I saw it,
but it got old very quickly. It came across as being lazy actually. It
is always easier to copy something familiar than create something new.
Just my opinion...
I am curious what you guys think?
Mangus
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/07/playtesters-needed.html
This thread is not C&C specific, sp please bear with me. It is geared
more toward the Old School Gaming movement, which includes C&C (the
best old school inspired games out there IMO), so it is still on
topic... in a roundabout way.
I have two links listed above. The first is a link to the cover for a
new module being put out by Rogue Games (makers of Colonial Gothic).
This adventure is tagged for Old School Gaming, which means it is
compatible with any of the old editions of D&D or their clones. It was
written and I believe the artwork was created by James Maliszewski
(the Grognardia blog). The second link will take you to the blog post
itself.
The reason I am sharing this is because of the community outcry this
has generated. As most of you know many of the old school products
coming out look like cheap knockoffs of original TSR products. He
posted the pic on his blog to get feedback, and in general he is
getting good response, but there are those in the Old School Movement
that feel the cover is not "retro enough". James responded, "That's
the point."
I personally agree with his approach, and feel new products should
utilize modern layout methods and up to date graphics. Aping the old
TSR modules and rulebook covers was cool the first few times I saw it,
but it got old very quickly. It came across as being lazy actually. It
is always easier to copy something familiar than create something new.
Just my opinion...
I am curious what you guys think?
Mangus
Chris Perkins
Jul 28, 2009, 7:39:59 AM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
Yes... see my houserules to get an idea of my ideal for old-school products (though they couldn't re-use old art due to copyright laws).
Chris Perkins
Jul 28, 2009, 7:51:41 AM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
To clarify my position:
I don't like the direction that modern versions of D&D have taken, where armor and weapons are unrealistic and all characters look like superheroes and supermodels.
The thing I like about old-school products is the fact that, while the art is crude at times, the combat scenes are more realistic (no wuxia-inspired leaping fighters with greatswords that are impossibly huge) and characters seem like real people turned adventurers. I've always liked the idea of adventurers being commoners that rise to extraordinary levels through grit and determination, rather than born heroes who are leaps and bounds beyond common folk from the get-go. Blech!
I don't like the direction that modern versions of D&D have taken, where armor and weapons are unrealistic and all characters look like superheroes and supermodels.
The thing I like about old-school products is the fact that, while the art is crude at times, the combat scenes are more realistic (no wuxia-inspired leaping fighters with greatswords that are impossibly huge) and characters seem like real people turned adventurers. I've always liked the idea of adventurers being commoners that rise to extraordinary levels through grit and determination, rather than born heroes who are leaps and bounds beyond common folk from the get-go. Blech!
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Mangus <psma...@gmail.com> wrote:
R. Scott Kimsey
Jul 28, 2009, 10:30:01 AM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Chris in that I don't want my characters to be walking
around in World of Warcraft style armor.
As for the types of covers, drawings, etc. in a module, I don't really
care whether it apes the older style or does something new. If it is
done well, it can be done in either way.
Sometimes, maybe it is an issue of practicality. I am writing up a
PDF of a level 1 C&C adventure I've been running. The maps are the
old-school style light blue. Nothing fancy. That's because I can make
those relatively easily in GIMP and they look very nice (for that
style of map). My skills aren't good enough to make a really awesome,
modern-looking map with tons of detail, colors, three-dimensional
aspects, and the like. So it came down to either making an
amateurish-looking fancy modern map, or a very nice, solid old-school
map.
around in World of Warcraft style armor.
As for the types of covers, drawings, etc. in a module, I don't really
care whether it apes the older style or does something new. If it is
done well, it can be done in either way.
Sometimes, maybe it is an issue of practicality. I am writing up a
PDF of a level 1 C&C adventure I've been running. The maps are the
old-school style light blue. Nothing fancy. That's because I can make
those relatively easily in GIMP and they look very nice (for that
style of map). My skills aren't good enough to make a really awesome,
modern-looking map with tons of detail, colors, three-dimensional
aspects, and the like. So it came down to either making an
amateurish-looking fancy modern map, or a very nice, solid old-school
map.
Mangus
Jul 28, 2009, 10:58:01 AM7/28/09
to Castles & Crusades
I hate the dungeon-punk art direction that 3rd Edition had. Now 4th
Edition artwork is less dungeon-punk and reminds me more of fantasy
flavored super heroes. Beautiful artwork on both accounts, but not my
cup of tea. IMO the First Edition AD&D Players Handbook captured the
feel of D&D perfectly. Dark and gritty, with the demonic idol in the
background to bring a sense of weirdness and dread to the scene. The
men in the picture are busy looting treasure and bandaging themselves
up, while a few are mapping the area and planning their next move. It
perfectly conveys to the viewer what they can expect from the game.
Jeff Easley did great work for the covers of the 2nd Edition books as
well, but there is something about that 1st Edition Players book that
gets me every time I look at it.
As mentioned before, I feel C&C is a big part of the Old School
Revival, and the products Troll Lords has published are great examples
of what I think is the right direction to take when putting out old
school gaming products. They have used a great art design that is very
distinctive. The layout and "feel" of their products utilize modern
graphic design techniques, but still hearken back to the old days. I
can see their game appealing to both grognards and newbies alike. I
think they have struck a perfect balance.
The Goodman Games DCC modules are great examples of what I think is
the wrong art direction to take with old school products. I don't need
a module to look exactly like the TSR modules to tell me it is meant
to be an old school product. Why use graphic art techniques from
almost 30 years ago when designing a new product? I realize nostalgia
plays a big role in this, but that could also be counter productive in
the end. Whether we want to admit it or not the artwork on the cover
of a book helps sell the product. In that regard, why alienate a
potential client base with a product that doesn't have some modern
appeal to it?
Of course this is all opinion and conjecture...
Great work on the houserules you put together Chris. I read through
them a long while back, and felt you had come up with some great
material. Obviously it was a labor of love... with an emphasis on
labor! :-)
On Jul 28, 7:51 am, Chris Perkins <csperkins1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To clarify my position:
>
> I don't like the direction that modern versions of D&D have taken, where
> armor and weapons are unrealistic and all characters look like superheroes
> and supermodels.
>
> The thing I like about old-school products is the fact that, while the art
> is crude at times, the combat scenes are more realistic (no wuxia-inspired
> leaping fighters with greatswords that are impossibly huge) and characters
> seem like real people turned adventurers. I've always liked the idea of
> adventurers being commoners that rise to extraordinary levels through grit
> and determination, rather than born heroes who are leaps and bounds beyond
> common folk from the get-go. Blech!
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Mangus <psman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SmsgDGXmKiI/AAAAAAAABMw/y6PYZVH...
Edition artwork is less dungeon-punk and reminds me more of fantasy
flavored super heroes. Beautiful artwork on both accounts, but not my
cup of tea. IMO the First Edition AD&D Players Handbook captured the
feel of D&D perfectly. Dark and gritty, with the demonic idol in the
background to bring a sense of weirdness and dread to the scene. The
men in the picture are busy looting treasure and bandaging themselves
up, while a few are mapping the area and planning their next move. It
perfectly conveys to the viewer what they can expect from the game.
Jeff Easley did great work for the covers of the 2nd Edition books as
well, but there is something about that 1st Edition Players book that
gets me every time I look at it.
As mentioned before, I feel C&C is a big part of the Old School
Revival, and the products Troll Lords has published are great examples
of what I think is the right direction to take when putting out old
school gaming products. They have used a great art design that is very
distinctive. The layout and "feel" of their products utilize modern
graphic design techniques, but still hearken back to the old days. I
can see their game appealing to both grognards and newbies alike. I
think they have struck a perfect balance.
The Goodman Games DCC modules are great examples of what I think is
the wrong art direction to take with old school products. I don't need
a module to look exactly like the TSR modules to tell me it is meant
to be an old school product. Why use graphic art techniques from
almost 30 years ago when designing a new product? I realize nostalgia
plays a big role in this, but that could also be counter productive in
the end. Whether we want to admit it or not the artwork on the cover
of a book helps sell the product. In that regard, why alienate a
potential client base with a product that doesn't have some modern
appeal to it?
Of course this is all opinion and conjecture...
Great work on the houserules you put together Chris. I read through
them a long while back, and felt you had come up with some great
material. Obviously it was a labor of love... with an emphasis on
labor! :-)
On Jul 28, 7:51 am, Chris Perkins <csperkins1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To clarify my position:
>
> I don't like the direction that modern versions of D&D have taken, where
> armor and weapons are unrealistic and all characters look like superheroes
> and supermodels.
>
> The thing I like about old-school products is the fact that, while the art
> is crude at times, the combat scenes are more realistic (no wuxia-inspired
> leaping fighters with greatswords that are impossibly huge) and characters
> seem like real people turned adventurers. I've always liked the idea of
> adventurers being commoners that rise to extraordinary levels through grit
> and determination, rather than born heroes who are leaps and bounds beyond
> common folk from the get-go. Blech!
>
>
>
>
> >http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/SmsgDGXmKiI/AAAAAAAABMw/y6PYZVH...
Chris Perkins
Jul 28, 2009, 11:05:22 AM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
I agree with you 100%. Thanks for the kind words regarding my work.
Mangus
Jul 28, 2009, 11:14:30 AM7/28/09
to Castles & Crusades
Using maps that are done in the style of what TSR produced is
perfectly fine. I realize not everyone has the ability to draw a
perfect map. I know I don't. The maps done in this style remind me of
blueprints, and they are very functional. There is nothing wrong at
all with going this route when creating a map.
The artwork in an old school product can be crude and still be classy.
I did not mean to imply I felt the art had to be in the Vein of the
Wizards of the Coast products. No one in the Old School Revival has
the resources or capital to even compete on that level. There are
creative ways around this though, and if you look at the cover James
is using for The Dark Chateau module you will see what I mean. A
photograph has obviously been used, and jazzed up in Photoshop. Under
Creative Commons there is plenty of free artwork available that can be
utilized. If I had to be critical of the cover I would say it looks
more like a straight horror product than a D&D haunted house
adventure.
perfectly fine. I realize not everyone has the ability to draw a
perfect map. I know I don't. The maps done in this style remind me of
blueprints, and they are very functional. There is nothing wrong at
all with going this route when creating a map.
The artwork in an old school product can be crude and still be classy.
I did not mean to imply I felt the art had to be in the Vein of the
Wizards of the Coast products. No one in the Old School Revival has
the resources or capital to even compete on that level. There are
creative ways around this though, and if you look at the cover James
is using for The Dark Chateau module you will see what I mean. A
photograph has obviously been used, and jazzed up in Photoshop. Under
Creative Commons there is plenty of free artwork available that can be
utilized. If I had to be critical of the cover I would say it looks
more like a straight horror product than a D&D haunted house
adventure.
R. Scott Kimsey
Jul 28, 2009, 11:19:37 AM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
Yeah, I know what you mean. My current map is here:
http://writersbbs.com/members/steerpike/CandCMap1.jpg
I initially tried some more complex graphics, but you could tell I
wasn't quite as skilled at it as I needed to be.
The Creative Commons material is great, and I also like to look
through online galleries of classic art work. You can use filters and
other tools in programs like GIMP or Paintshop Pro to create some
pretty neat artwork.
Most of my writeup of my adventure simply doesn't have any artwork in
it. I thought I'd also make a printer-friendly version with no artwork
at all, other than maps, and with page borders and shading removed.
But the main PDF is meant primarily to be viewed onscreen.
I like looking at what people have done with artwork. Peter Bradley,
who does a lot of the C&C art, does a very nice job at catching what
is to me the 'flavor' of a D&D-type game.
http://writersbbs.com/members/steerpike/CandCMap1.jpg
I initially tried some more complex graphics, but you could tell I
wasn't quite as skilled at it as I needed to be.
The Creative Commons material is great, and I also like to look
through online galleries of classic art work. You can use filters and
other tools in programs like GIMP or Paintshop Pro to create some
pretty neat artwork.
Most of my writeup of my adventure simply doesn't have any artwork in
it. I thought I'd also make a printer-friendly version with no artwork
at all, other than maps, and with page borders and shading removed.
But the main PDF is meant primarily to be viewed onscreen.
I like looking at what people have done with artwork. Peter Bradley,
who does a lot of the C&C art, does a very nice job at catching what
is to me the 'flavor' of a D&D-type game.
Mangus
Jul 28, 2009, 11:46:41 AM7/28/09
to Castles & Crusades
Great map Scott. Looks like you have more ability than you have given
yourself credit for. Is this a module you are writing for self-
publication, or is this going to be something you will offer to the
public for free? Either way I wish you luck on the project.
yourself credit for. Is this a module you are writing for self-
publication, or is this going to be something you will offer to the
public for free? Either way I wish you luck on the project.
R. Scott Kimsey
Jul 28, 2009, 12:29:59 PM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
Thanks, glad you liked it!
R. Scott Kimsey
Jul 28, 2009, 12:32:10 PM7/28/09
to castles-...@googlegroups.com
Oh, and to answer your other question: this is the first adventure
I've written up in any formal sense. Thought I'd just post it as a
free download. Toying with the idea of making it like shareware - free
download, if you like it and end up using it paypal me a buck or two.
Not sure.
It's certainly not something I'm planning on making a lot of money on.
Although I do freelance writing and editing, very little of it has
been in the gaming industry. Writing this adventure has been as much
a learning experience for me as anything. And it's been fun as well.
I have a couple ideas for more.
I've written up in any formal sense. Thought I'd just post it as a
free download. Toying with the idea of making it like shareware - free
download, if you like it and end up using it paypal me a buck or two.
Not sure.
It's certainly not something I'm planning on making a lot of money on.
Although I do freelance writing and editing, very little of it has
been in the gaming industry. Writing this adventure has been as much
a learning experience for me as anything. And it's been fun as well.
I have a couple ideas for more.
Deen Mor'iarty
Jul 31, 2009, 10:51:01 AM7/31/09
to Castles & Crusades
Hey Scott.. Looks like there is some blood being trailed off from area
1 down the hallway in area 2.. what's up with that? Did a knight get
poked or something?
In my opinion, "old school" products were great because the art
reflected Frank Frazetta-style brutality and sexuality. even 2ed.
Thumb through the DMG and PHB and compare the scantily clad gals and
foreboding doom with the neutered cartoons of 3ed. I think it's
reflective of the tone of the game. Rather than worry about offending
someone I'd like to see gaming product that look like the old Heavy
Metal cartoon mag.
On Jul 28, 11:32 am, "R. Scott Kimsey" <rskim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, and to answer your other question: this is the first adventure
> I've written up in any formal sense. Thought I'd just post it as a
> free download. Toying with the idea of making it like shareware - free
> download, if you like it and end up using it paypal me a buck or two.
> Not sure.
>
> It's certainly not something I'm planning on making a lot of money on.
> Although I do freelance writing and editing, very little of it has
> been in the gaming industry. Writing this adventure has been as much
> a learning experience for me as anything. And it's been fun as well.
> I have a couple ideas for more.
>
1 down the hallway in area 2.. what's up with that? Did a knight get
poked or something?
In my opinion, "old school" products were great because the art
reflected Frank Frazetta-style brutality and sexuality. even 2ed.
Thumb through the DMG and PHB and compare the scantily clad gals and
foreboding doom with the neutered cartoons of 3ed. I think it's
reflective of the tone of the game. Rather than worry about offending
someone I'd like to see gaming product that look like the old Heavy
Metal cartoon mag.
On Jul 28, 11:32 am, "R. Scott Kimsey" <rskim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, and to answer your other question: this is the first adventure
> I've written up in any formal sense. Thought I'd just post it as a
> free download. Toying with the idea of making it like shareware - free
> download, if you like it and end up using it paypal me a buck or two.
> Not sure.
>
> It's certainly not something I'm planning on making a lot of money on.
> Although I do freelance writing and editing, very little of it has
> been in the gaming industry. Writing this adventure has been as much
> a learning experience for me as anything. And it's been fun as well.
> I have a couple ideas for more.
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:29 AM, R. Scott Kimsey<rskim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks, glad you liked it!
>
> > Thanks, glad you liked it!
>
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