Ragas that co-exist in Hindustani and Carnatic

[Ananth Pattabiraman]

A friend of mine asked me this question, he wanted to know the names of
ragas 'common' in both Carnatic and Hindustani.

I tried to explain about 'parallel' ragas, ragas taken/derived from the
other system etc. I was not quite satisfied with my own reply, and was
running out of good examples. So I thought I better post the question here.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Ananth.

[deepak]

hi all
The 10 thaat ragas ( sampoorna ragas ) as per hindustani system are as follows.

1 Mechakalyani - yaman kalyan
2 Shankarabaranam - Bilaval
3 Subapanthuvarali - Todi
4.Hanumaththodi - Bairavi
5.Mayamalavagowlai - Bairav
6 Harikamboji - Khamaj
7.Karahapriya - Kafi
8.Natabairavi - Asavari
9. Gamanasrama - Marwa
10 Poovi - Kamavardini

the other ragas are listed in the attachment.
Its not a comprehensive and some may be wrong.
just check it out

[Ananth Pattabiraman]

Wow! that's a pretty impressive list.

Thanks a lot.

Regards,
Ananth.

[Janardhan Iyengar]

Hi Deepak,

Some (possible?) corrections:

> 1 Mechakalyani - yaman kalyan

I think Yaman Kalyan is most similar to Yamuna Kalyani, and not
Mecha Kalyani. I do not know what Kalyani is closest to though.

> 4.Hanumaththodi - Bairavi
I think Bhairavi (HCM) is closest to Sindu Bhairavi (CCM). Again, I do
not know what Hanumathodi is closest to.. I've been looking.

The list is quite exhaustive! Thanks!

regards,
jana

---------------------------------------------------------------
Janardhan R. Iyengar http://www.cis.udel.edu/~iyengar
Protocol Engineering Lab -- CIS -- University Of Delaware
---------------------------------------------------------------

[Ananth Pattabiraman]

In the attached xls file there was a mapping between Yaman Kalyaan & Yamuna kalyani. (the last row).

[deepak]

Hi janardan,
Yaman kalyan is the closest to kalyani and not yamuna kalyani.
and also Bairavi is actually thodi.
But Thodi without gamakams.
Note that is the arohanam of Thodi the heavy gamakam during Ga and in
avarohanam the slide from Ma to Ga..
these are characteristics of our Thodi.
While in Bairavi, this gamakam is not there.
all the notes are rendered flat.
Also Bairavi in Hindustani is a Thaat raga, meaning Sampoorna raga.
and hence its equivalent is Thodi.
But Practically, we can take Bairavi to be like Sindubairvi
Since Thodi - gamakam = Hindustani Bairavi ( which hears like Sindubairavi )
and Technically, Todi = Bairavi ( in hindustani )
Hope this clarifies.
If not, pl get back

[Janardhan Iyengar]

Hi Deepak,

(HCM - Hindustani Classical Music, CCM - Carnatic CM, ICM - Indian CM)

I will refer to Rajan Parrikar's and Ramana/Muthukumar's excellent
articles at (I meant to post this link earlier on the list):
http://www.sawf.org/music/articles.asp?pn=Music

> Yaman kalyan is the closest to kalyani and not yamuna kalyani.

See Rajan's article on Kalyan:
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit01142002/musicarts.asp

Relevant to our discussion, Yaman or Kalyan use the same scale and
phrasings as Kalyani (ONLY prati Madhyamam) - I forgot about this in my
previous post - therefore, MechaKalyani is closest to Yaman (or Kalyan).

What is commonly referred to as YamanKalyan is closest to YamunaKalyani
and is the Yaman or Kalyani scale with the inclusion of suddha Madhyamam
in certain phrasings, as a vivadi swara.

Note though that in HCM, some folks do consider suddha Madhyamam as part
of the Yaman scale (and consider YamanKalyan as redundant).

Quoting Rajan Parrikar:

"The inclusion of the shuddha madhyam M in Raga Yaman gives rise to the
irrationally-named Raga Yaman Kalyan (sometimes also called Jaimini
Kalyan). This nomenclature is widespread but not universally accepted and
one comes across the occasional musician partaking in the shuddha madhyam
under the 'Yaman' label. The nature of M in Yaman is not unlike that of a
vivAdi swara; soft and judicious use occasions moments of great delight.
Its frequency of occurrence and swara-lagAv are matters of individual and
stylistic taste with allowance of latitude on this score. Its manner of
approach is, however, uniformly implemented, for the underlying aesthetic
seems to have been appreciated all over. But for the shuddha madhyam-laden
tonal construct in the poorvAnga the rest of the structural contours of
Yaman Kalyan are congruent with Yaman. The distinguishing phrase assumes
the following form (or a minor variation of it): N' R G, m G R G, M G R S"

The distinguishing phrase is the same as that for CCM's YamunaKalyani.

In summary, Yaman or Kalyan, and YamanKalyan can all be considered close
to YamunaKalyani. But only Yaman or Kalyan can be considered close to
MechaKalyani. YamanKalyan, if exists, is close to only YamunaKalyani.

> and also Bairavi is actually thodi.
> But Thodi without gamakams.
> Note that is the arohanam of Thodi the heavy gamakam during Ga and in
> avarohanam the slide from Ma to Ga..
> these are characteristics of our Thodi.
> While in Bairavi, this gamakam is not there.
> all the notes are rendered flat.
> Also Bairavi in Hindustani is a Thaat raga, meaning Sampoorna raga.
> and hence its equivalent is Thodi.
> But Practically, we can take Bairavi to be like Sindubairvi
> Since Thodi - gamakam = Hindustani Bairavi ( which hears like Sindubairavi )
> and Technically, Todi = Bairavi ( in hindustani )

I'm not able to understand your reasoning. In any case, I do not think
that Bhairavi (HCM) is Thodi (CCM) - gamakams. The Aro/Ava of Bhairavi
(HCM) is the same as that of Thodi (CCM). But usage of Bhairavi (HCM) has
changed over time, and now extensively uses Cha Ri (R2), Prati Ma (M2),
Cha Dha (D2) - and sounds very similar to Sindhu Bhairavi (CCM).

I will look into Bhairavi (HCM) more and get back, but it seems that Thodi
(CCM) might be close to Shuddha Bhairavi (HCM).

[deepak]

Hi
Your are absolutely right that, Yaman kalyan uses Shu Ma.
But Yaman is also sometimes played with Shu Ma.
Try listening to raga Yaman by Vilayat khan and Bismillah khan ( jugal)
they very subtely introduce Shu Ma inbetween only to enhance the beauty.
Also in HCM aro/ava is not very important. Pakads ( phrases) are more important.
So we can not expect a HCMusician to render a Yaman khyal which
strictly follows the Aro/ava of Kalyani.

Similarly regarding bhairvi / todi what i mean is technically the Aro
/ Ava of two ragas are the same.
But the usage of HCM bhairvi is more like Sindubairavai of ccm.
At the same time one can not say what the aro/ava of sindubairavi of CCM is.
It has many facets.
Hindustani Bharvi is one of the faces.
will continue our discussion.
Bye
deepak

[Janardhan Iyengar]

Hi Deepak,

> Your are absolutely right that, Yaman kalyan uses Shu Ma. But Yaman is
> also sometimes played with Shu Ma. Try listening to raga Yaman by

I agree with you. My point is that YamanKalyan is defined with Shuddha Ma,
whereas Shuddha Ma *may* be used in Yaman. If one played the Kalyani
scale, a HCM listener would recognize it is Yaman, not YamanKalyan.
Therefore Kalyani is closest to Yaman, not YamanKalyan. YamanKalyan then
becomes closest to YamunaKalyani.

> Ma inbetween only to enhance the beauty. Also in HCM aro/ava is not very
> important. Pakads ( phrases) are more important. So we can not expect a
> HCMusician to render a Yaman khyal which strictly follows the Aro/ava of
> Kalyani.
> Similarly regarding bhairvi / todi what i mean is technically the Aro
> / Ava of two ragas are the same.
> But the usage of HCM bhairvi is more like Sindubairavai of ccm.
> At the same time one can not say what the aro/ava of sindubairavi of CCM is.
> It has many facets.
> Hindustani Bharvi is one of the faces.

Your point about aro/ava is well taken (although, the aro/ava for
SinduBhairavi can be and is defined). My point is in line with this
fact. How can we say that a raga in CCM is close to a raga in HCM when the
basis for comparison are not the same?

Let me explain. We, in CCM, give *significant* importance to the aro/ava
of ragas. Anya swaras (such as N1 in Bilahari) are largely absent in CCM
(in particular, when compared to HCM which is abound in such usages). The
role of aro/ava in the definition of the ragas contours is much different
in HCM and CCM, thereby making aro/ava not the best basis for comparison
of HCM and CCM ragas. The aro/ava of HCM Bhairavi are the same as that of
CCM Thodi, but the raga description of HCM Bhairavi (or what a
musician/listener thinks is the core of HCM Bhairavi, or what makes up HCM
Bhairavi) is nowhere close to the raga description of CCM Thodi. The raga
description is, on the other hand, close to CCM SindhuBhairavi. Is it then
appropriate to consider HCM Bhairavi as closest to CCM Thodi?

What do others on the list think?

[sriram vijayaraghavan]

hi
you are right
yaman is nearer to kalyani and yamankalyan to yamuna kalyani.
Also as far as the feeling a raga evokes, HCM bairavi and CCM todi are
very different, though as i told before technically they are the same.
and Sindu bairavi ( CCM) is closest to bhairvi ( HCM )..
by the way what is the aro/ava of Sindu bairavi.
Hearing to musicians like TNSeshagopalan singing to Sindubairavi, i
feel there can be no proper Aro/ ava for sindubairavi. Also for kapi
strict aro/avo can not be defined.
Pl comment..
and why is the group so dull.
Why do we not get quick responses??
members come on..
Let us discuss, debate and participate more..
as i already said..afterall music is for sharing..
bye
Deepak