BUS PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Martin Stevenson
Did you know that our tuition is supposed to increase by $140.00 next
year, so that every full-time undergraduate will have an eight month bus
pass. Sounds great for students taking the bus, but what about the
students who don't take the bus, like those who have a car, walk, bike,
are driven to school, or live in residence. Did you know that this $140
is mandatory, it cannot be refunded like the medical fee.
Why should I have to pay (mandatory) for others taking the bus? That's
bull-shit!!! We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
voted (1900 yes, 1200 no, approx). This means that 1900 students are
going to force 16,000 full-time undergraduates (1994-1995 figures) to pay
an extra $140.00 (5% increase in tuition), this will be added to the
already proposed 20% increase in tuition. Is that democratic?
What about all the students who drive to school? Will anybody help them
pay for parking? Or, for that matter: gas; insurance; maintenance,
repairs, depreciation; and initial investment. I don't think so. So why
should these 'Driving-Students' have to subsidize the 'Bus-Students'? Is
OC Transpo not already subsidized by tax payers, which include
'Driving-Students'?
What about the students who walk to school? They now have to pay for the
Bus-Students'. The very bus they have to keep an eye on so that it
doesn't splash them with a puddle or hit them as they cross the street. I
can just see the 'Bus-Students' in the bus laughing at the
'Walking-Students'. Will the Bus-Students' help the 'Walking-Students'
pay for extra wear to their shoes, which will wear faster?
What about the students who take a bike? Who fear their bikes will get
stolen or damaged as they attend their classes? Will the 'Bus-Students'
help pay for lost or damaged bikes, or even the cost of the
bikes? I don't think so!
What about other students who are driven to school by others?
What about other students who live in residence?
This seems like a sweetheart deal for OC Transpo, otherwise they would not
have agreed - don't be naive!!! They will be receiving, by my
calculation about $2,240,000.00 (140 * 16,000), at the beginning of the
school year not throughout it - which means more money for them (time
value of money). From the view of OC Transpo, they are being payed by
many students who don't even use their services - what a great deal!! A
customer that is forced to buy your product (space on a bus) and doesn't
even pick it up (go on the bus), so now you can sell that product (space
on the bus) to another and get twice the revenue. WOW!!!, does OC Transpo
sell stocks, I would like to invest, then I could afford this tuition hike!!!!
The new rates for 'Bus-Students' is undeniably a great deal. It is a
fantastic savings, they will have to pay less than half of what they pay
now. But, we have to ask ourselves how are they getting this great deal.
Is it the generosity of 'OC Transpo? Or, is the great deal being
subsidized by other Carleton
Students who don't use the bus? In an ideal world - you might want to
believe it is the generosity of OC Transpo, but in the real world,
somebody has to pay, in this case it is all the full-time undergraduate
students of Carleton.
It is clear that this has been organized by few to affect many. The
winners - 'Bus-Students' and OC Transpo. The losers -
Driving-Student', 'Walking-Students', 'Biking-Students', and
'Residence-Students' (the majority).
I have been at Carleton for four years now, and nothing has pissed me off
more than this. Including all the tuition hikes - at least I can
understand them. Is there anyone out there, who might have suggestions on
how we can fight this mandatory bus fee. Or have any information that
they could add.
Sincerely,
Martin.
Barry Yellin
> Did you know that our tuition is supposed to increase by $140.00 next
> year, so that every full-time undergraduate will have an eight month bus
> pass. Sounds great for students taking the bus, but what about the
> students who don't take the bus, like those who have a car, walk, bike,
> are driven to school, or live in residence. Did you know that this $140
> is mandatory, it cannot be refunded like the medical fee.
[...more diseased sophistry eviscerated...]
Okay, guy...calm down...
Perhaps you're new to the usenet thing and missed the entire
thread on the issue here in carleton.general. Lots of people concurred
with you and a few did not. While I agree with you that the majority
subsidizing a few may sound undemocratic, there was a recent referendum on
the issue. Did lots of people get out there and vote? No. If indeed
people felt that strongly on the issue, you wouldn't have to pay $140
dollars extra next year. Period. You can thank voter apathy for your
"tuition hike" to subsidize your puss-bas next year. You can thank the
morons over at OC Transpo for their profitable ploy. You can even thank
CUSA for their apparant brilliance or for just being so bloody stupid.
You may thank your fellow undergraduate students for not caring; you may
thank yourself for not voting on the referendum either...(it seems you did
not know about it); you can even thank your local politician for not
making lap-dancing legal and letting OC Transpo legally screw you.
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D D E S A A D D E
D D EEEEE SSSSS A A D D EEEEE
D D E S AAAAAAA D D E
DDDDDD EEEEEE SSSSS A A DDDDDD EEEEEE
http://chat.carleton.ca/~byellin
Articles, Reviews, Essays, Bibliographies, and Stories
Over 1025 have visited the site in just its first 5 weeks...
Steven Meece
> Why should I have to pay (mandatory) for others taking the bus? That's
> bull-shit!!! We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
> democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> voted (1900 yes, 1200 no, approx).
That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
> I
> can just see the 'Bus-Students' in the bus laughing at the
> 'Walking-Students'.
So let the Walking-Students become Bus-Students and join in the mirth.
> then I could afford this tuition hike!!!!
It's an increase in the fees, not tuition.
> The losers -
> Driving-Student', 'Walking-Students', 'Biking-Students', and
> 'Residence-Students' (the majority).
If they really were the majority, then they could have voted to protect
their interests. The reason we have a bus pass is that the actual majority did
just that.
What a pathetic whiner you are! Put the bus pass in your pipe and smoke it.
---
Steven Meece
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smeece
When a nation's young men are conservative, its funeral bell is
already rung.
- Henry Ward Beecher
Chris Salter
> election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> going to force 16,000 full-time undergraduates (1994-1995 figures) to pay
> an extra $140.00 (5% increase in tuition), this will be added to the
> already proposed 20% increase in tuition. Is that democratic?
should have voted "no" in the elections. Obviously, not a lot of people
cared one way or another. So 1900 voted yes, 1200 voted no, and about
13000 decided to just go with the flow, which was yes. Pretty apathetic.
Cindy Chalmers
> students who don't take the bus, like those who have a car, walk, bike,
> are driven to school, or live in residence. Did you know that this $140
> is mandatory, it cannot be refunded like the medical fee.
Well..I lived in rez this year and personally if I had of had a bus pass
of some sort I would have ventured downtown and around a hell of a lot
more than I did this year!
> What about all the students who drive to school? Will anybody help them
> pay for parking? Or, for that matter: gas; insurance; maintenance,
> repairs, depreciation; and initial investment. I don't think so. So why
> should these 'Driving-Students' have to subsidize the 'Bus-Students'? Is
> OC Transpo not already subsidized by tax payers, which include
> 'Driving-Students'?
Why would anyone want to pay around $400 for a parking permit for next
year when they could use their bus pass for the low price of $140...It
would save those "driving students" around $400..if you work in insurance,
gas etc...
> What about the students who walk to school? They now have to pay for the
> Bus-Students'. The very bus they have to keep an eye on so that it
> doesn't splash them with a puddle or hit them as they cross the street. I
> can just see the 'Bus-Students' in the bus laughing at the
> 'Walking-Students'. Will the Bus-Students' help the 'Walking-Students'
> pay for extra wear to their shoes, which will wear faster?
What happens in the winter? If I walked regularly to school I would love
to have the option to hop on the bus in the middle of a snow storm and not
have to worry about getting frozen.
> What about the students who take a bike? Who fear their bikes will get
> stolen or damaged as they attend their classes? Will the 'Bus-Students'
> help pay for lost or damaged bikes, or even the cost of the
> bikes? I don't think so!
I can't argue with this one...
> What about other students who are driven to school by others?
What would those students do if the person who drove them got sick or
their car broke down? With the bus pass it wouldn't really matter.
They would still be able to get to school!
> This seems like a sweetheart deal for OC Transpo, otherwise they would not
> have agreed - don't be naive!!! They will be receiving, by my
> calculation about $2,240,000.00 (140 * 16,000), at the beginning of the
> school year not throughout it - which means more money for them (time
> value of money). From the view of OC Transpo, they are being payed by
> many students who don't even use their services - what a great deal!! A
> customer that is forced to buy your product (space on a bus) and doesn't
> even pick it up (go on the bus), so now you can sell that product (space
> on the bus) to another and get twice the revenue. WOW!!!, does OC Transpo
> sell stocks, I would like to invest, then I could afford this tuition hike!!!!
Well...Maybe they'll use this extra cash to increase quality of service..
Okay I know I'm dreaming now!:)
I have to admit...I am slightly biased when it comes to this issue...I
don't have a car and I will be taking the bus next year when I live off
campus but when thinking about how to vote for this I did weigh all the
options...The people who drive to school, those who walk etc...and even
though there are disadvantages for those people there are also many
advantages..Personally I'm gonna love it!:)
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
:) Cindy Chalmers :)
:) Carleton University :)
:) First Year Classical Civilizations :)
:) Email address: ccha...@chat.carleton.ca :)
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Allan Cybulskie
> > Why should I have to pay (mandatory) for others taking the bus? That's
> > bull-shit!!! We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
> > democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> > election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> > voted (1900 yes, 1200 no, approx).
> That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
Actually, technically, by CUSA rules, it isn't, I believe ...
> > I
> > can just see the 'Bus-Students' in the bus laughing at the
> > 'Walking-Students'.
> So let the Walking-Students become Bus-Students and join in the mirth.
I live 10 minutes away from campus, so I should take a half-an-hour and
ride the bus?
> > then I could afford this tuition hike!!!!
> It's an increase in the fees, not tuition.
Same difference ...
> > The losers -
> > Driving-Student', 'Walking-Students', 'Biking-Students', and
> > 'Residence-Students' (the majority).
> If they really were the majority, then they could have voted to protect
> their interests. The reason we have a bus pass is that the actual majority did
> just that.
I think that the plan should not be mandatory. If it is such a good deal
for everyone (as was claimed) then most people will keep the pass. For
those people for whom it's just a needless expense (and I would definitely
be one of them, as I live 10 minutes away and also own a car), they can
get a refund. If the majority of students are really "Bus-Students", it
wouldn't hurt the profits of OC Transpo by very much ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Commander Allan Cybulskie Email address: acyb...@chat.carleton.ca
Carleton University
"There are no unachievable goals; there are no unsavable souls"
- Ozzy Osbourne in "I Just Want You"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zachary Houle
> > Why should I have to pay (mandatory) for others taking the bus? That's
> > bull-shit!!! We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
> > democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> > election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> > voted (1900 yes, 1200 no, approx).
> That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can
do is insult people to get their way.
Your above statement is bullshit. The voting process is not
always "quorum." How many times in those Central American countries have
the had to overturn votes or start uprisings because of cheating at voting
stations? Hey, that actually sounds like this CUSA election (Re: Mr.
Health's protests over his DQ).
If the vote gets thrown out, it *might* be tough shit for you Mr.
Meece. Who knows if the referendum questions will be thrown out too if
another election is called?
> So let the Walking-Students become Bus-Students and join in the mirth.
Why? So they can pay *your* way into school?
> > then I could afford this tuition hike!!!!
> It's an increase in the fees, not tuition.
There is a proposed 20% tuition hike that should be voted on soon
in the Senate, if memory serves me correct. Have you ever thought that the
other guy might just be right, for once?
> > The losers -
> > Driving-Student', 'Walking-Students', 'Biking-Students', and
> > 'Residence-Students' (the majority).
> If they really were the majority, then they could have voted to protect
> their interests. The reason we have a bus pass is that the actual majority did
> just that.
<Z spills coffee in his lap>. That's the biggest croc of BS that
I've ever heard. A lot of people didn't know about the referendum
questions, despite the campaigning and the big banners in the tunnels and
stuff. A good friend of mine who voted saw the posters/banners/whatnot,
but didn't know exactly what they meant! She didn't know what the issues
are. It wasn't that she was stupid, it was that she was uninformed.
The problem with CUSA is that on issues like this, they expect the
students to come to it to get the "details". I saw no one out in the
halls campaigning over the bus pass issues. Hell, they're more concerned
with getting their little ass into office. The banners they had up didn't
exactly say a lot, you know. With some exception to the YES side's
posters, they mainly were just plays on emotion for students who did know
about the issues.
> What a pathetic whiner you are! Put the bus pass in your pipe and smoke it.
The battle may be over, but the war is not won you know. You'd
better can the insults if you don't want to be smoking that pipe next year.
Zachary Houle - Carleton University
Journalism II email address: zho...@chat.carleton.ca
NUG rep - 2nd year Journalism
John Edwards
> Steven Meece (sme...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > Martin Stevenson (mste...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > > Why should I have to pay (mandatory) for others taking the bus? That's
> > > bull-shit!!! We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
> > > democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> > > election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> > > voted (1900 yes, 1200 no, approx).
> > That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
> Actually, technically, by CUSA rules, it isn't, I believe ...
Sure it is. Only constitutional amendments need a certain number of votes
in favour to pass. This was not a constitutional amendment, it was a mass
fleecing.
3100 votes, BTW, is the highest there's been in some time around here.
I wonder if the people complaining about it now all voted against it.
See you later,
John
--
John Edwards Stats Geek, Ottawa Senators Jr. A Hockey Club (30-15-2)
Email: jedw...@chat.carleton.ca URL: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jedwards
"I can't go downtown! I've got things to do tonight!" - P. Derbyshire
}3 }3 Friends don't let friends get a B.A. }3 }3
Steve Jefferys
full-time students should be allowed to opt out of the bus pass.
Personally, I think that the buss pass is good, but only for the
students that are going to use it. I own a car and plan on driving
to school next year. I should not have to pay an extra $140 for
something I'll never use. I admit that I never voted, but I never
knew about it. That may seem like an excuse, but it is the truth.
If we are allowed to opt out of the health insurance (drug plan) here
at Carleton provided that we have alternative coverage, why then
shouldn't we be allowed to opt out of this plan? It doesn't matter
what you call the extra $140, it is still more money that we have
to pay next year. Nice democracy we have here.
***********************************************************
Steve Jefferys
Aerospace Engineering IV
Carleton University
Email address: sjef...@chat.carleton.ca
or : sjef...@engsoc.carleton.ca
or : sjef...@mae.carleton.ca
***********************************************************
Dave Dalle
> <Z spills coffee in his lap>. That's the biggest croc of BS that
> I've ever heard. A lot of people didn't know about the referendum
> questions, despite the campaigning and the big banners in the tunnels and
> stuff. A good friend of mine who voted saw the posters/banners/whatnot,
> but didn't know exactly what they meant! She didn't know what the issues
> are. It wasn't that she was stupid, it was that she was uninformed.
The above paragraph is pretty humourous: "a lot of people didn't know...
despite the campaigning and big banners..."
Ignorance has never been an acceptable defence. If you can't be bothered
when your opinion is aksed for, you can't complain later (at least,
without looking pretty foolish).
Your friend is supposed to be attending an institute of higher learning,
if she can't figure out the posters, or make an effort to figure them out,
maybe she should rethink her position as a *university student*. I'm sure
as hell not going to accept ignorance and stupidity as a defence from
university students, hey, drop-out and then you won't have to pay at all.
Dave
--
Hi-ho Mozart! The seven dwarves never had it so good.
Dave Dalle
> Okay, enough with the name calling. The issue here is whether or not
> full-time students should be allowed to opt out of the bus pass.
The issue has already been decided on.
Obviously you won't be able to opt-out, otherwise OC Transpo would be
losing a hell of a lot of money: drastically lower fares for bus-riders as
opposed to making up that difference by creating a hell of a lot more
bus-riders. There already exists tons of things in this society which
you pay for but don't use, and there are many things you do use that
others pay for (and do not use). That's one of the basic things that make
Canada such a great country, the envy many nations. History has
proven that the alternative is far worse.
Jamie LaBrash
> > pass. Sounds great for students taking the bus, but what about the
> > students who don't take the bus, like those who have a car, walk, bike,
> > are driven to school, or live in residence. Did you know that this $140
> > is mandatory, it cannot be refunded like the medical fee.
> Well..I lived in rez this year and personally if I had of had a bus pass
> of some sort I would have ventured downtown and around a hell of a lot
> more than I did this year!
> > What about all the students who drive to school? Will anybody help them
> > pay for parking? Or, for that matter: gas; insurance; maintenance,
> > repairs, depreciation; and initial investment. I don't think so. So why
> > should these 'Driving-Students' have to subsidize the 'Bus-Students'? Is
> > OC Transpo not already subsidized by tax payers, which include
> > 'Driving-Students'?
> Why would anyone want to pay around $400 for a parking permit for next
> year when they could use their bus pass for the low price of $140...It
> would save those "driving students" around $400..if you work in insurance,
> gas etc...
No offence but have you ever taken OC Transpo on a regular basis? It
has incredibly poor service. Especially to Carleton. If you rely on an OC
you'll never be sure of being on time unless you catch the bus before the
one that is supposed to get you where you're going on time.
> What happens in the winter? If I walked regularly to school I would love
> to have the option to hop on the bus in the middle of a snow storm and not
> have to worry about getting frozen.
You make it sound like the buses are always on time and available frequently.
> Well...Maybe they'll use this extra cash to increase quality of service..
> Okay I know I'm dreaming now!:)
Beyond your wildest ones!
> I have to admit...I am slightly biased when it comes to this issue...I
> don't have a car and I will be taking the bus next year when I live off
> campus but when thinking about how to vote for this I did weigh all the
> options...The people who drive to school, those who walk etc...and even
> though there are disadvantages for those people there are also many
> advantages..Personally I'm gonna love it!:)
Wait until you depend on OC Transpo and then you'll want to dump it.
*---X----X----X...@chat.carleton.ca--X----X----X----X--*
"I don't need luck! I need beer!!!" -The Sandman
*---X----X---http://www.eng.carleton.ca/chat/~jlabrash---X-----X--*
<All new web page coming soon>
Jason Higgins
done is have a portion of the fee put towards parking. Afterall our
parking fees are ridiculous as well. $300 for a permit to park 5-10
minutes from your class, and now a $140 dollar bus pass aswell. What
bullshit! Laurentian has a new bus pass policy aswell but the money can
go partially towards their parking. $50 dollars with the pass, $75
without.
CU$A has royally fucked it's students over. The campaign never
even bothered to address the issue of the bus pass. The only way I
actully knew what it really was, was because of the newsgroups. The
posters were vague and decieving.
Hopefully if some of the ideas of abolishing CU$A come true we
won't have to have this bullshit anymore.!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Higgins
Carleton University
Email address: jhig...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake Claydon
> > democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> > election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> > going to force 16,000 full-time undergraduates (1994-1995 figures) to pay
> > an extra $140.00 (5% increase in tuition), this will be added to the
> > already proposed 20% increase in tuition. Is that democratic?
> It is democratic. If so damned many people were going to be hurt, they
> should have voted "no" in the elections. Obviously, not a lot of people
> cared one way or another. So 1900 voted yes, 1200 voted no, and about
How about the people like me who made 5 bloody attempts to cast my vote
before I finally found a station that had a)ballots available b)2 people
at the station to witness c)a line of less than 15 people. It's no wonder
that people dont vote. I would have quit after my 2nd attempt except for a
driving urge to check off NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
> 13000 decided to just go with the flow, which was yes. Pretty apathetic.
Whatever...
Blake
Florida State Seminoles........1993 National Champions
........ACC Champs 1992,1993,1994,1995
AP,USA/CNN #4 Rank ........31-1 in ACC play
........10-2 Overall in 1995
........11 Straight BOWL Wins
BOWL GAME ........Orange Bowl...New Years Day
OUTCOME ........FSU 31 ND 26
GO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blake Claydon
> Why would anyone want to pay around $400 for a parking permit for next
> year when they could use their bus pass for the low price of $140...It
Perhaps so they dont have to hitchhike to get anywhere near a f$$$$$$
terminal or stop. It also allows me to come and go from school when
IIIIIIIIIIII want to, not when OC says or at least attempts to say.
> would save those "driving students" around $400..if you work in insurance,
> gas etc...
> > What about the students who walk to school? They now have to pay for the
> > Bus-Students'. The very bus they have to keep an eye on so that it
> > doesn't splash them with a puddle or hit them as they cross the street. I
> > can just see the 'Bus-Students' in the bus laughing at the
> > 'Walking-Students'. Will the Bus-Students' help the 'Walking-Students'
> > pay for extra wear to their shoes, which will wear faster?
> What happens in the winter? If I walked regularly to school I would love
> to have the option to hop on the bus in the middle of a snow storm and not
> have to worry about getting frozen.
Yeah, and I love the option of hopping into my own car in my own driveway
and not being in any snow period.
> I can't argue with this one...
or with any of the others....
> What would those students do if the person who drove them got sick or
> their car broke down? With the bus pass it wouldn't really matter.
> They would still be able to get to school!
Hell yeah! Let's pay $140 so we can catch a lift on OC 5 times a year when
my ride cant make it. Do you think just for a moment that these people
would rather pay the 2 or 3 dollars on these insignificant occasions????
> I have to admit...I am slightly biased when it comes to this issue...I
> don't have a car and I will be taking the bus next year when I live off
> campus but when thinking about how to vote for this I did weigh all the
> options...The people who drive to school, those who walk etc...and even
No. You obviously didn't.
Blake Claydon
> Steve Jefferys (sjef...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> > Okay, enough with the name calling. The issue here is whether or not
> > full-time students should be allowed to opt out of the bus pass.
> Obviously you won't be able to opt-out, otherwise OC Transpo would be
> losing a hell of a lot of money: drastically lower fares for bus-riders as
Not necessarily(sp?). They could decrease the cost by 80-90 dollars rather
than 140 and they will still pick up new riders based on the lower fairs.
SOmeone in this thread said that they will now use the bus based on lower
price. There are probably lots of people who will be nore willing to take
the bus now and as such can make up the difference. With the current deal
there is no way that OC is just maintaining there existing student dollar
contribution or they wouldnt care to put out the effort. No, this is a
boom to OC's coffers and should be seen as such.
Blake
> opposed to making up that difference by creating a hell of a lot more
> bus-riders. There already exists tons of things in this society which
> you pay for but don't use, and there are many things you do use that
> others pay for (and do not use). That's one of the basic things that make
> Canada such a great country, the envy many nations. History has
> proven that the alternative is far worse.
> Dave
> --
> Hi-ho Mozart! The seven dwarves never had it so good.
Allan Cybulskie
You must admit that, this year, the elections have been very poorly
publicized. I had to dig around in the Charlatan to find out where the
all-candidates debates were (and as far as I know, there was only one) and
I didn't get a chance to hear all the sides in the referendum campaign,
and I'm sorry, but I REFUSE to vote based on posters.
Basically, the publicity for the referendum questions was so poor that I
had no idea what they were talking about, and I was actually FOLLOWING
them, slightly. Also, this referendum doesn't cover new students, who may
want to opt out of $140 that they won't be using. And guess who fills
the majority of spots in Residence?
Finally, if a referendum is cast in stone, then why don't we have a
varsity hockey team?
Allan Cybulskie
> Steve Jefferys (sjef...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> > Okay, enough with the name calling. The issue here is whether or not
> > full-time students should be allowed to opt out of the bus pass.
> The issue has already been decided on.
> Obviously you won't be able to opt-out, otherwise OC Transpo would be
> losing a hell of a lot of money: drastically lower fares for bus-riders as
> opposed to making up that difference by creating a hell of a lot more
> bus-riders.
How would they lose money? It's still someone with a cheaper bus pass,
whether there are more of them or not. A lot of bus riders riding for
free is just taking up spots for paying customers (you know, those who
don't get the cheaper passes). I fail to see why OC Transpo cares about
the numbers, unless they need the lump payment for some reason ...
Chris Salter
> > It is democratic. If so damned many people were going to be hurt, they
> > should have voted "no" in the elections. Obviously, not a lot of people
> > cared one way or another. So 1900 voted yes, 1200 voted no, and about
> How about the people like me who made 5 bloody attempts to cast my vote
> before I finally found a station that had a)ballots available b)2 people
> at the station to witness c)a line of less than 15 people. It's no wonder
> that people dont vote. I would have quit after my 2nd attempt except for a
> driving urge to check off NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
except some bored-looking elections people waiting for people to vote.
> > 13000 decided to just go with the flow, which was yes. Pretty apathetic.
> Whatever...
Whatever? Huh? About 3000 vote, and about 13000 don't... how is that not
apathetic?
Steven Meece
against the bus pass is, to effect, that they are too lazy to be bothered
to use their pass. As the results of the referendum have shown, this does
not exactly draw sympathy. Now that the bus pass has been voted into
effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use your
pass, your interests would be better served by thinking up ways to use
what you have just bought.
Zachary Houle (zho...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
>
> Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can
> do is insult people to get their way.
Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can do is
win a referendum to get their way.
> Your above statement is bullshit. The voting process is not
> always "quorum." How many times in those Central American countries have
> the had to overturn votes or start uprisings because of cheating at voting
> stations?
In almost all elections and referendums, there is no mandatory participation
rate required for an election to be official. The candidate with the most
votes gets the position, come one or come all.
> > So let the Walking-Students become Bus-Students and join in the mirth.
>
> Why? So they can pay *your* way into school?
If they are on the bus, they are paying their own way into school.
> > > then I could afford this tuition hike!!!!
> >
> > It's an increase in the fees, not tuition.
>
> There is a proposed 20% tuition hike that should be voted on soon
> in the Senate, if memory serves me correct. Have you ever thought that the
> other guy might just be right, for once?
Please tell me what a tuition hike has to do with the bus pass. The extra
monies going to tuition are to replace cutbacks in provincial funding. The
extra monies going to fees are to purchase a bus pass. Please tell me how
these are the same thing.
> > If they really were the majority, then they could have voted to protect
> > their interests. The reason we have a bus pass is that the actual majority did
> > just that.
>
> <Z spills coffee in his lap>. That's the biggest croc of BS that
> I've ever heard. A lot of people didn't know about the referendum
> questions, despite the campaigning and the big banners in the tunnels and
> stuff. A good friend of mine who voted saw the posters/banners/whatnot,
> but didn't know exactly what they meant! She didn't know what the issues
> are. It wasn't that she was stupid, it was that she was uninformed.
Is this this the requisite j-school tangent that creeps into every one of
your postings?
Again, tough shit. Cry me a river that your friend didn't bother to
familarise herself with the issues. As anyone will attest, the issue was
certainly debated loudly and longly on the carleton.general newsgroup.
If you have any problems with the way the No side handled their publicity
campaign, take it up with Dan Maloley. I think he was the head guy. Try as
you might, his failings aren't a legitimate cause to overturn the results of
the referendum.
> > What a pathetic whiner you are! Put the bus pass in your pipe and smoke it.
>
> The battle may be over, but the war is not won you know.
Rally the troops. Ah, zhoule.
Zachary Houle
> This thread has been previously discussed to excess. The argument of those
> against the bus pass is, to effect, that they are too lazy to be bothered
> to use their pass. As the results of the referendum have shown, this does
> not exactly draw sympathy. Now that the bus pass has been voted into
> effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use your
> pass, your interests would be better served by thinking up ways to use
> what you have just bought.
How? The plan, to my knowledge, is to affix a sticker to your
student card. Pretty <expletive deleted> hard to sell you own <expletive
deleted> student card, eh Meece?
As for using the bus, A) I only use it if the distance is too far to
walk. For instance, on Friday, I walked from Res to where Greenboro
station is off Bank Street. A pretty long walk, INMO. Or B) when the
temperature is like -50 and a bus is coming along in like 3 minutes.
> Zachary Houle (zho...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > > That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
> >
> > Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can
> > do is insult people to get their way.
> Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can do is
> win a referendum to get their way.
Referendums mean nothing. Christ, even Chretien and Bouchard
didn't even agree on how many YES votes would be needed during the Quebec
referendum before Quebec went solo.
> > Your above statement is bullshit. The voting process is not
> > always "quorum." How many times in those Central American countries have
> > the had to overturn votes or start uprisings because of cheating at voting
> > stations?
> In almost all elections and referendums, there is no mandatory participation
> rate required for an election to be official. The candidate with the most
> votes gets the position, come one or come all.
You said it: "In almost all ... referendums." Let's repeat that
once again: "In *almost* all .."
So there are *no* guarantees that a referendum would be offical
under your definition. Exactly. In fact, I do recall that either Laurier
or Macdonald recalled a referendum question on prohibition (of alcohol)
because only, like, 17% of the population of Canada at the time bothered
to vote. There was also a significant difference in the voting patterns
between English Canadians and Quebecers. (I believe Quebec voted YES on
that one.)
> > > So let the Walking-Students become Bus-Students and join in the mirth.
> >
> > Why? So they can pay *your* way into school?
> If they are on the bus, they are paying their own way into school.
And, if not, their $140 is up in smoke. NOT everyone uses the
bus, you know. Do you even care about the reasons??? Those who have cars
still have to pay for insurance you know.
> > > It's an increase in the fees, not tuition.
> >
> > There is a proposed 20% tuition hike that should be voted on soon
> > in the Senate, if memory serves me correct. Have you ever thought that the
> > other guy might just be right, for once?
> Please tell me what a tuition hike has to do with the bus pass. The extra
> monies going to tuition are to replace cutbacks in provincial funding. The
> extra monies going to fees are to purchase a bus pass. Please tell me how
> these are the same thing.
It's called accumulation, you know. Add $500 to $140 = $640 more
that you'll be paying next year. Not everyone can afford these increases,
you know. (And don't forget that, for some, the $140 *is* an increase!
Of course, you're just being nearsighted and looking at how much *you'll*
save in the deal.)
> Is this this the requisite j-school tangent that creeps into every one of
> your postings?
Define j-school tangent. I hope it differs from a socalist tangent
which, to me, you sound like despite your sig quote. (At least I'm not
owned by a mainstream political party -- re: NDP).
> Again, tough shit. Cry me a river that your friend didn't bother to
> familarise herself with the issues. As anyone will attest, the issue was
> certainly debated loudly and longly on the carleton.general newsgroup.
She doesn't read the newsgroups. If you'd like, I can buy you
a gun so you can force her to at gunpoint. <sarcasm>.
> If you have any problems with the way the No side handled their publicity
> campaign, take it up with Dan Maloley. I think he was the head guy. Try as
> you might, his failings aren't a legitimate cause to overturn the results of
> the referendum.
No, but maybe James Health's DQ might be enough. *Might*. Notice
the use of that word.
The bottom line here is money. Not the good of all society like
the utopian pipe dream that you're dreaming. If these bus passes were for
the good of *all* Carleton students, then you should be able to opt out if
you don't need them. Other people shouldn't have to pay the tab so that
people like yourself can ride the busses for cheap.
Zachary Houle
> The above paragraph is pretty humourous: "a lot of people didn't know...
> despite the campaigning and big banners..."
> Ignorance has never been an acceptable defence. If you can't be bothered
> when your opinion is aksed for, you can't complain later (at least,
> without looking pretty foolish).
Dave, do you actually think that 100% of Canada's population
rushes out during every general election to inform themselves of the
issues? No, the majority of them sits on their ass and use the polls that
the media supplies them with to vote! (Yes, I'll admit that we media
people aren't perfect all the time!)
> Your friend is supposed to be attending an institute of higher learning,
> if she can't figure out the posters, or make an effort to figure them out,
> maybe she should rethink her position as a *university student*. I'm sure
> as hell not going to accept ignorance and stupidity as a defence from
> university students, hey, drop-out and then you won't have to pay at all.
This is getting personal, but anyhow:
My friend has 4.5 courses. She also has a part-time job that
wipes out her entire weekend. She also lives off campus and has a one-hour
bus ride into school when she has classes. She also dedicates 2 or 3
hours every Monday night to be a Girl Guide leader. That's volunteer
work, and I'd say she does a hell of a lot more for the community than
most students.
She is *not* stupid.
<sarcasm on> How do you have any idea of her intelligence level when
you don't know the person, Dave? Oh, right. Forget you get a crystal ball
when you become a CKCU DJ. <sarcasm off>.
She voted, but she had absolutely zero time to learn the issues.
The main reason why, I think, is because it's one thing to see a poster that
says "Vote NO for bussing" and then try and find out what's going on behind
that with her hectic schedule. Same thing happens in the federal elections.
Asking every student to step into the CUSA office is unrealistic.
Besides, shouldn't CUSA be going to the students, and not forcing them to
come to CUSA?
Anyhow, I should be doing the research that I logged on here to
do, so I'll just end it there ...
Paul Hennessey
jhig...@chat.carleton.ca (Jason Higgins) wrote:
> CU$A has royally fucked it's students over. The campaign never
>even bothered to address the issue of the bus pass. The only way I
>actully knew what it really was, was because of the newsgroups. The
>posters were vague and decieving.
Alright...I was going to stay out of this debate, 'cause my feelings on this
issue are well known. But, I MUST combat this ignorance.
First of of all, CUSA fucked over nobody! Just because CUSA-hacks happened to
be running the yes and no side doesn't mean it was a CUSA sponsored thing.
And when have you ever seen Federal election posters that spelled out every
god-damned issue????? If you found the posters so damn vague, why didn't you
come to one of the candidates debates? Why didn't you do ALL that you could
to find out exactly what you were voting for instead of bitching about vague
posters?????
>> Hopefully if some of the ideas of abolishing CU$A come true we
>won't have to have this bullshit anymore.!
Once again, this Bus Pass thing had NOTHING to do with CUSA. It was an OC
Transpo initaitive, and now we have it because more people voted for it than
against it. I don't like it, but its now reality so all the bitching in the
world isn't going to change that. I'm just gunna have to live with the fact I
have a bus pass I don't use.
Please get all the facts before you blindly throw accusations around.
*********************************************************************
Paul Hennessey * 3rd year B.Comm MIS major
Carleton University * CU Students Ass'n Business Representative
Ottawa, Canada * CU Student Ambassador
-------------------------------------------------------------------
EMAIL: phen...@chat.carleton.ca *OR* af...@freenet.carleton.ca
WWW PAGE: http://chat.carleton.ca/~phenness
*********************************************************************
Steven Meece
> > Now that the bus pass has been voted into
> > effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use your
> > pass, your interests would be better served by thinking up ways to use
> > what you have just bought.
>
> How?
By riding the bus.
> As for using the bus, A) I only use it if the distance is too far to
> walk. For instance, on Friday, I walked from Res to where Greenboro
> station is off Bank Street. A pretty long walk, INMO. Or B) when the
> temperature is like -50 and a bus is coming along in like 3 minutes.
You'll certainly use it more if you know that you can hop on the thing,
flash your student card, and then ride. And if even that doesn't encourage
you, then the only problem is laziness on your part.
> > Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can do is
> > win a referendum to get their way.
>
> Referendums mean nothing.
Except in cases where your side wins.
> > In almost all elections and referendums, there is no mandatory participation
> > rate required for an election to be official. The candidate with the most
> > votes gets the position, come one or come all.
>
> You said it: "In almost all ... referendums." Let's repeat that
> once again: "In *almost* all .."
There are no partipation levels required for this referendum. As I wrote
further up this stream, if one person votes, that's quorum. As has been
mentioned further up this stream, 3100 votes is a rather high
participation rate anyhow.
> > If they are on the bus, they are paying their own way into school.
>
> And, if not, their $140 is up in smoke. NOT everyone uses the bus, you know.
> Other people shouldn't have to pay the tab so that people like yourself
> can ride the busses for cheap.
Again, that's their own bloody laziness. Unlike a lot of CUSA supported
activities, the bus is available for everyone: Choose to use it or not. But
don't go crying about your money if you freely CHOOSE not to bother with the
bus.
> Do you even care about the reasons??? Those who have cars
> still have to pay for insurance you know.
During the lead-in I posted a message that outlined about five or six
reasons why it would be in the interest of car drivers to take the bus; if
not exclusively, then at least more often. These included monetary savings
in such things as gas, parking, insurance, and automobile wear/tear. They
also included a better safety risk, a better cityscape, and a better
environment.
> It's called accumulation, you know. Add $500 to $140 = $640 more
> that you'll be paying next year. Not everyone can afford these increases,
> you know.
Unlike tuition, in this case you pay more but you also receive more. A bus
pass for $17.50 a month is a fantastic bargain that hasn't been seen since
the early 70s. I should think that this will become one of Carleton's
selling points, used to lure first years here. It is a clear case of value
for money.
> The bottom line here is money. Not the good of all society like
> the utopian pipe dream that you're dreaming. If these bus passes were for
> the good of *all* Carleton students, then you should be able to opt out if
> you don't need them.
The reason they work is because of economies of scale. Grad students,
part-timers and those who live outside of O-C and the Outaouais don't get
them.
All of these arguments have been hashed out previously, and your side
lost. It's not a utopian pipe dream, it's a reality. So why are you
whining on about it? Please come to terms with the fact that you've lost,
and, for your own sake, familarise yourself with the O-C Transpo route map.
---
Steven Meece Nihil obstat
http://chat.carleton.ca/~smeece + Imprimateur
Thomas Collins
> > Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can do is
> > win a referendum to get their way.
> Referendums mean nothing. Christ, even Chretien and Bouchard
> didn't even agree on how many YES votes would be needed during the Quebec
> referendum before Quebec went solo.
Back in 1949, Newfoundland entered Canada with only a vote of 51%-49%.
All you need is that small extra percentage of votes, and you've won.
> And, if not, their $140 is up in smoke. NOT everyone uses the
> bus, you know. Do you even care about the reasons??? Those who have cars
> still have to pay for insurance you know.
I don't care about the reasons. They can pay for their insurance, but
there's still that bus pass that they have to pay for.
> It's called accumulation, you know. Add $500 to $140 = $640 more
> that you'll be paying next year. Not everyone can afford these increases,
> you know. (And don't forget that, for some, the $140 *is* an increase!
> Of course, you're just being nearsighted and looking at how much *you'll*
> save in the deal.)
Maybe they should sell their car, and then they can afford it. Think of
the money they'll save on insurance, gas, etc.
> The bottom line here is money. Not the good of all society like
> the utopian pipe dream that you're dreaming. If these bus passes were for
> the good of *all* Carleton students, then you should be able to opt out if
> you don't need them. Other people shouldn't have to pay the tab so that
> people like yourself can ride the busses for cheap.
If they didn't want to pay, they should have voted. And if they did
vote, then they lost. I'm in favor of this bus pass, and I know where OC
Transpo is going to make their money. Off of the students that don't use
the busses. And I don't care. If I save money, that's all that counts.
Look out for yourself, and that's what I'm doing. So if I get a deal at
someone else's expense, then why should I care?
Tommy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MR. T
Carleton University
"Got to get me moose, By'.
Got to go a moose hunting, hunting in the fall.
Got to go a moose hunting, answer the hunting call.
Got to get me moose, By'." -BUDDY WASISNAME
Email address: tcol...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake Claydon
> Maybe they should sell their car, and then they can afford it. Think of
> the money they'll save on insurance, gas, etc.
Hey that's smart...why dont you drop out of school and then you wont need
a bus pass to get there...great logic.
> the busses. And I don't care. If I save money, that's all that counts.
> Look out for yourself, and that's what I'm doing. So if I get a deal at
> someone else's expense, then why should I care?
You _must_ be familiar with the word jackass eh?
> Tommy _BOY_
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> MR. T
> Carleton University
> "Got to get me moose, By'.
> Got to go a moose hunting, hunting in the fall.
> Got to go a moose hunting, answer the hunting call.
> Got to get me moose, By'." -BUDDY WASISNAME
As long as you dont use my money to get there.
Allan Cybulskie
> Zachary Houle (zho...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > As for using the bus, A) I only use it if the distance is too far to
> > walk. For instance, on Friday, I walked from Res to where Greenboro
> > station is off Bank Street. A pretty long walk, INMO. Or B) when the
> > temperature is like -50 and a bus is coming along in like 3 minutes.
> You'll certainly use it more if you know that you can hop on the thing,
> flash your student card, and then ride. And if even that doesn't encourage
> you, then the only problem is laziness on your part.
1) How can it be considered lazy if you'd rather walk for a half-an-hour
than ride the bus?
2) One time I was out on a cold winter night, and I decided to walk back
to Residence instead of waiting in the cold for a bus. I walked the exact
route the bus takes, and made it back to Residence without seeing one.
The bus is not that ideal a means of transportation. It's slow, runs to
its own schedule (not to yours) and is often crowded. I'd much rather
walk than ride the bus.
> > > If they are on the bus, they are paying their own way into school.
> >
> > And, if not, their $140 is up in smoke. NOT everyone uses the bus, you know.
> > Other people shouldn't have to pay the tab so that people like yourself
> > can ride the busses for cheap.
> Again, that's their own bloody laziness. Unlike a lot of CUSA supported
> activities, the bus is available for everyone: Choose to use it or not. But
> don't go crying about your money if you freely CHOOSE not to bother with the
> bus.
A bus pass is not going to help me get to school. I can't take the bus to
go grocery shopping. Just when should I CHOOSE to use it?
> > Do you even care about the reasons??? Those who have cars
> > still have to pay for insurance you know.
> During the lead-in I posted a message that outlined about five or six
> reasons why it would be in the interest of car drivers to take the bus; if
> not exclusively, then at least more often. These included monetary savings
> in such things as gas, parking, insurance, and automobile wear/tear. They
> also included a better safety risk, a better cityscape, and a better
> environment.
And walking is far better than the bus in all those categories ...
> > It's called accumulation, you know. Add $500 to $140 = $640 more
> > that you'll be paying next year. Not everyone can afford these increases,
> > you know.
> Unlike tuition, in this case you pay more but you also receive more. A bus
> pass for $17.50 a month is a fantastic bargain that hasn't been seen since
> the early 70s. I should think that this will become one of Carleton's
> selling points, used to lure first years here. It is a clear case of value
> for money.
First year students will NOT come to Carleton to get a cheap bus pass ...
Thomas Collins
Blake Claydon (bcla...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> Thomas Collins (tcol...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > Maybe they should sell their car, and then they can afford it. Think of
> > the money they'll save on insurance, gas, etc.
> Hey that's smart...why dont you drop out of school and then you wont need
> a bus pass to get there...great logic.
I never said that. I just said that if they're complaining that they
have insurance, parking permits, gas, etc. to pay for, and they can't
afford it, then they should sell the car. Who was talking about dropping
out?
> > the busses. And I don't care. If I save money, that's all that counts.
> > Look out for yourself, and that's what I'm doing. So if I get a deal at
> > someone else's expense, then why should I care?
> You _must_ be familiar with the word jackass eh?
Yup. Dealing with people like you, how can I not be?
> > Tommy _BOY_
Hahaha... So funny. Wow, I've been living with this name for 19 years,
and that is the first time anyone has ever used that. Great originality.
> > "Got to get me moose, By'.
> > Got to go a moose hunting, hunting in the fall.
> > Got to go a moose hunting, answer the hunting call.
> > Got to get me moose, By'." -BUDDY WASISNAME
> As long as you dont use my money to get there.
If OC Transpo goes there, I'll be using your money. I guess you'll have
to live with it. You don't only use this pass to get to school, you use
it to go anywhere that OC Transpo goes. That's the great thing about this
deal.
Tommy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MR. T
Carleton University
"Got to get me moose, By'.
Got to go a moose hunting, hunting in the fall.
Got to go a moose hunting, answer the hunting call.
Got to get me moose, By'." -BUDDY WASISNAME
Email address: tcol...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Dalle
>
> Dave, do you actually think that 100% of Canada's population
> rushes out during every general election to inform themselves of the
> issues? No, the majority of them sits on their ass and use the polls that
> the media supplies them with to vote! (Yes, I'll admit that we media
> people aren't perfect all the time!)
Which is why I have very strong misgivings about democracy, but that's for
another thread...
>
> This is getting personal, but anyhow:
> My friend has 4.5 courses. She also has a part-time job that
> wipes out her entire weekend. She also lives off campus and has a one-hour
> bus ride into school when she has classes. She also dedicates 2 or 3
> hours every Monday night to be a Girl Guide leader. That's volunteer
> work, and I'd say she does a hell of a lot more for the community than
> most students.
That's all fine and great, probably your friend is a great person, but you
can't use that excuse to justify your ignorance, just as she can't use
that excuse to get out of writing an essay or two. And anyways, her
ignorance will result in quite a pleasant surprise come next year, as she
discovers she's saving over $200 with her new buspass. (You mentioned
that she's a regular bus rider).
> She voted, but she had absolutely zero time to learn the issues.
> The main reason why, I think, is because it's one thing to see a poster that
> says "Vote NO for bussing" and then try and find out what's going on behind
> that with her hectic schedule. Same thing happens in the federal elections.
Actually most of the posters for this question had reasonsably detailed
info on the posters themselves. Anyways what is the logic behind: "the
majority vote should be discounted because there were probably many
students who remained ignorant or apathetic, some of them because they
were too busy to inform themselves."
Anyways, the vote has been cast, it was pretty decisive, there can't be
two votes on the same issue in the same election year, so at least for next
year we're all buying bus passes.
Dave Dalle
>
> Referendums mean nothing. Christ, even Chretien and Bouchard
> didn't even agree on how many YES votes would be needed during the Quebec
> referendum before Quebec went solo.
Yes, they mean nothing, you're correct, mabye your new $140 bus pass will
alter that opinion, but you're entitled to it.
>
> You said it: "In almost all ... referendums." Let's repeat that
> once again: "In *almost* all .."
> So there are *no* guarantees that a referendum would be offical
> under your definition. Exactly. In fact, I do recall that either Laurier
> or Macdonald recalled a referendum question on prohibition (of alcohol)
> because only, like, 17% of the population of Canada at the time bothered
And this election has had one of the highest voter turn-outs for a Carleton
election ever, and all the past elections have stood on their extremely
low turn-out, so why would this one not?
> And, if not, their $140 is up in smoke. NOT everyone uses the
> bus, you know. Do you even care about the reasons??? Those who have cars
> still have to pay for insurance you know.
And those who have enough money (a hell of a lot more than $140) to own and
operate a car are really going to garner sympathy. If it comes to the
point between affording your car insurance, or the new $140 increase, then
you can sell your car (and even make money) and take the bus to school, in
this case the bus-pass certainly won't keep anyone from attending school.
And what about the athletics fee? A tired old horse, but a damn good
comparison, eveyone has to pay for athletics, many never use them. I'd
even bet more students take the bus than use athletics. Why should I pay
so someone else can use a stairmaster? Because he probably pays into some
things I use and he doesn't, I have no problem with it. Go, use your
stairmaster, no need to thank me, you'd do the same for me.
Zachary Houle
> > > Now that the bus pass has been voted into
> > > effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use your
> > > pass, your interests would be better served by thinking up ways to use
> > > what you have just bought.
> >
> > How?
This is quote manipulation. In J-ism, you'd get a great big F if
you did that. I did have a couple of sentences runing after that word,
you know.
> > As for using the bus, A) I only use it if the distance is too far to
> > walk. For instance, on Friday, I walked from Res to where Greenboro
> > station is off Bank Street. A pretty long walk, INMO. Or B) when the
> > temperature is like -50 and a bus is coming along in like 3 minutes.
> You'll certainly use it more if you know that you can hop on the thing,
> flash your student card, and then ride. And if even that doesn't encourage
> you, then the only problem is laziness on your part.
I'd say that you're pretty lazy if you choose to ride the bus
rather than walk.
> > > Funny. It seems that all the YES side for the bus pass issue can do is
> > > win a referendum to get their way.
> >
> > Referendums mean nothing.
> Except in cases where your side wins.
No, I think that referendums and elections should have to have
over half the population turn out in order to be a valid representation of
what people think. That would be democracy. What we have now, at the
CUSA level anyhow, is oligarchy.
> > Other people shouldn't have to pay the tab so that people like yourself
> > can ride the busses for cheap.
> Again, that's their own bloody laziness. Unlike a lot of CUSA supported
> activities, the bus is available for everyone: Choose to use it or not. But
> don't go crying about your money if you freely CHOOSE not to bother with the
> bus.
What in God's name has riding the bus have to do with being
lazy??? See my above response.
> > Do you even care about the reasons??? Those who have cars
> > still have to pay for insurance you know.
> During the lead-in I posted a message that outlined about five or six
> reasons why it would be in the interest of car drivers to take the bus; if
> not exclusively, then at least more often. These included monetary savings
> in such things as gas, parking, insurance, and automobile wear/tear. They
> also included a better safety risk, a better cityscape, and a better
> environment.
And you're also holding a gun to people's heads to get rid of
their cars. Some issues, such as time it takes to get to school, are more
important to some people than gas, parking, insurance, yadda, yadda.
Right, you're a socialist and don't give a shit about what the individual
thinks. Some people hold part-time jobs just to make it through school,
and don't have to time to dick around with busess. Personally, I'd say
that you have no right to tell another person how he or she should live,
provided that he or she is not infringing on other's rights. (And I'd say
that riding the bus is not a right, it's a priviledge.)
> > It's called accumulation, you know. Add $500 to $140 = $640 more
> > that you'll be paying next year. Not everyone can afford these increases,
> > you know.
> Unlike tuition, in this case you pay more but you also receive more. A bus
> pass for $17.50 a month is a fantastic bargain that hasn't been seen since
> the early 70s. I should think that this will become one of Carleton's
> selling points, used to lure first years here. It is a clear case of value
> for money.
Dream on. Queen's has a bus pass program too. Did I choose to go
to Queen's because of it?
> > The bottom line here is money. Not the good of all society like
> > the utopian pipe dream that you're dreaming. If these bus passes were for
> > the good of *all* Carleton students, then you should be able to opt out if
> > you don't need them.
> The reason they work is because of economies of scale. Grad students,
> part-timers and those who live outside of O-C and the Outaouais don't get
> them.
They reason they don't work is because of economies of scale.
Maybe it might force a full-time student to become a part-time student
because he or she can't afford the bloody thing! Did you ever think of that!
Zachary Houle
> That's all fine and great, probably your friend is a great person, but you
> can't use that excuse to justify your ignorance, just as she can't use
> that excuse to get out of writing an essay or two. And anyways, her
> ignorance will result in quite a pleasant surprise come next year, as she
> discovers she's saving over $200 with her new buspass. (You mentioned
> that she's a regular bus rider).
Yeah, she voted for it. That wasn't my point, though. She didn't
know a thing about it until I told her what the issue was. (Probably
should have kept my mouth shut. Would have made the NO vote margin a
little closer. ;-) ).
> > She voted, but she had absolutely zero time to learn the issues.
> > The main reason why, I think, is because it's one thing to see a poster that
> > says "Vote NO for bussing" and then try and find out what's going on behind
> > that with her hectic schedule. Same thing happens in the federal elections.
> Actually most of the posters for this question had reasonsably detailed
> info on the posters themselves. Anyways what is the logic behind: "the
> majority vote should be discounted because there were probably many
> students who remained ignorant or apathetic, some of them because they
> were too busy to inform themselves."
> Anyways, the vote has been cast, it was pretty decisive, there can't be
> two votes on the same issue in the same election year, so at least for next
> year we're all buying bus passes.
Until CU$A gets abolished. (Spelt it right this time, Bird.)
Zachary Houle
> And those who have enough money (a hell of a lot more than $140) to own and
> operate a car are really going to garner sympathy. If it comes to the
> point between affording your car insurance, or the new $140 increase, then
> you can sell your car (and even make money) and take the bus to school, in
> this case the bus-pass certainly won't keep anyone from attending school.
One of the issues here is this bus pass removes control over the
individual. Hey, I have no problem if you own a car and take it to
school. The reason why most do is to save them time, not money. Every
argument for the bus pass is pro on saving money, but not on time. It
takes longer for someone to take the bus than to drive into school. I
think it's unfair to say to these students: "Look. I have a gun at your
head. Either you take the bus and waste a lot of time that you could have
for working at a part-time job or school, or you take your car and pay
more money for it. You choose, no ifs, ands or buts." You call that
democracy? The bus pass is really like a $140 parking fee increase for
these students.
You're also assuming that you can sell off the car. If selling a
car is as hard as getting a job in this economy, that's not as easy as it
looks you know.
> And what about the athletics fee? A tired old horse, but a damn good
> comparison, eveyone has to pay for athletics, many never use them. I'd
> even bet more students take the bus than use athletics. Why should I pay
> so someone else can use a stairmaster? Because he probably pays into some
> things I use and he doesn't, I have no problem with it. Go, use your
> stairmaster, no need to thank me, you'd do the same for me.
Well, Dave, vote for me next year and I'll see what I can do about
that athletics fee.
Michal Wellum
> Martin Stevenson (mste...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > Why should I have to pay (mandatory) for others taking the bus? That's
> > bull-shit!!! We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
> > democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> > election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> > voted (1900 yes, 1200 no, approx).
> That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
> ---
> Steven Meece
> http://chat.carleton.ca/~smeece
> When a nation's young men are conservative, its funeral bell is
> already rung.
> - Henry Ward Beecher
I think we sould form a Meece is an ASSHOLE club. What a pathetic waste of
space you are. Fuck you, buddy. Yes I voted no. So I do have the right to
bitch. Your attitude leaves somthing to be desired. Your politically
correct socialist views on everything will only do one thing. Drive us
into the poorhouse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Wellum Khan of the True Wolves
High Enforcer of the Ministry of Battletech
Try our MoB WEBSITE/HOMEPAGES!
http://www.winternet.com/~capella/church.html
http://www.cyberus.ca/~theskumlord/skumm.htm
Email address: mwe...@chat.carleton.ca
bn...@freenet.carleton.ca
thesk...@cyberus.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Salter
> > > > Now that the bus pass has been voted into
> > > > effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use
> > > > what you have just bought.
> > > How?
> This is quote manipulation. In J-ism, you'd get a great big F if
> you did that. I did have a couple of sentences runing after that word,
> you know.
perfectly fair and legal here. Deal with it.
Chris Salter
> I think we sould form a Meece is an ASSHOLE club. What a pathetic waste of
> space you are. Fuck you, buddy. Yes I voted no. So I do have the right to
> bitch. Your attitude leaves somthing to be desired. Your politically
> correct socialist views on everything will only do one thing. Drive us
> into the poorhouse.
name-calling, and kept mindless flaming out of this thread. Oh, no, wait
a minute.
Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala
Chris Salter "I'm glad I'm me. I'd hate to
csa...@chat.carleton.ca be a jock." -Me
lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalakillthesmurfs!
Colin R. Leech
Martin Stevenson (mste...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> We do not live in a communist society. We live in a
> democratic society. Now you are probably saying "Well, there was an
> election and the majority won". My response - is that only 3100 people
> going to force 16,000 full-time undergraduates (1994-1995 figures) to pay
> an extra $140.00 (5% increase in tuition), this will be added to the
> already proposed 20% increase in tuition. Is that democratic?
Yes, it is. Since there are 16,000 students around, and the turnout was
low (in your opinion - what turnout does CUSA generally get for its
elections?), it shouldn't have been too difficult for you to find another
700 people to vote NO to defeat the proposal. It seems to me that either you
didn't put a whole lot of effort into doing this, or else there aren't 700
more people on campus opposed to the idea. "Put up, or shut up", as they say.
--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### > < Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
##### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Allan Cybulskie
Actually, it isn't legal. There have been a fair number of libel threats
against people who insist on misquoting someone in a post ...
I'm not certain if this counts because I really don't care ...
Robert Brando
> I think we sould form a Meece is an ASSHOLE club.
I'm there....
Robert Brando
> Glad to see that you've managed to stay above the level of mere
> name-calling, and kept mindless flaming out of this thread.
Glad to see some new dickhead got an internet account and learned how to
type.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Brando
Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Email address: rbr...@chat.carleton.ca
WWW HomePage: http://chat.carleton.ca/~rbrando
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Salter
> > Glad to see that you've managed to stay above the level of mere
> > name-calling, and kept mindless flaming out of this thread.
> Glad to see some new dickhead got an internet account and learned how to
> type.
directly into a trap of which you had been informed; indeed, the trap
itself was virtually screaming at you, "I AM A TRAP!!!" and you still put
your foot in.
Chris Salter
> > > > > How?
> > > This is quote manipulation. In J-ism, you'd get a great big F if
> > > you did that. I did have a couple of sentences runing after that word,
> > > you know.
> > This is a newsgroup. This is *NOT* J-ism. Quote manipulation is
> > perfectly fair and legal here. Deal with it.
> Actually, it isn't legal. There have been a fair number of libel threats
> against people who insist on misquoting someone in a post ...
oldtimers on the net are in for some heavy-duty lawsuits. And I am as
well. Oh gee, I'm so terribly frightened.
Steven Meece
> > > > Now that the bus pass has been voted into
> > > > effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use your
> > > > pass, your interests would be better served by thinking up ways to use
> > > > what you have just bought.
> > >
> > > How?
>
> This is quote manipulation. In J-ism, you'd get a great big F if
> you did that.
I'm not writing for Reuters, I'm writing for me. Did I make my point? Did I
show you as a fool? A great big A in the real world.
> No, I think that referendums and elections should have to have
> over half the population turn out in order to be a valid representation of
> what people think.
Will never happen. I don't have much sympathy for people who can't be
bothered to vote. Since the day I turned 18, I've never missed any
election. If I can do it, so can half of them.
> And you're also holding a gun to people's heads to get rid of
> their cars. Some issues, such as time it takes to get to school, are more
> important to some people than gas, parking, insurance, yadda, yadda.
But according to you, they like to walk, which takes about 3x as long as a
bus.
It does not hold a gun any more than the athletics levy holds a gun to
people's heads to force them to get rid of their home stairmaster or
something.
> Right, you're a socialist and don't give a shit about what the individual
> thinks. Some people hold part-time jobs just to make it through school,
> and don't have to time to dick around with busess.
How interesting that they don't have time to dick around with buses, but
according to you, they do have time to dick around with walking.
Don't secretly change your premise in the middle of the argument: That earns
you a big fat F, I'm afraid!
> Dream on. Queen's has a bus pass program too. Did I choose to go
> to Queen's because of it?
To point out the obvious to those who are too dense to see it, the bus pass
would simply be an added benefit, like Foot Patrol: It would not be the
entire show.
I know the rest of this newsgroup is going to regret me bringing up the
subject of journalism with you, but if this is the calibre of journalists
that we are turning out, it's another black mark against Carleton. Your
debating skills are awfully weak, and you can't even pick up on the major
points I'm trying to make. The anecdotes and parables you use to support
your viewpoint are flimsy.
On the other hand, you'd be a great reporter for the Ottawa Sun. They'd
hire you on the spot, because you used their magic words: "Right, you're a
socialist and don't give a shit about what the individual thinks." This is
the last words in most Sun articles today.
Steven Meece
> Yeah, she voted for it. That wasn't my point, though. She didn't
> know a thing about it until I told her what the issue was. (Probably
> should have kept my mouth shut. Would have made the NO vote margin a
> little closer. ;-) ).
There's journalistic ethics for you, ah zhole.
Steven Meece
> > > My response - is that only 3100 people voted.
> >
> > That's your tough shit. If one person bothered to vote, that's quorum.
>
> I think we sould form a Meece is an ASSHOLE club. What a pathetic waste of
> space you are. Fuck you, buddy. Yes I voted no. So I do have the right to
> bitch. Your attitude leaves somthing to be desired. Your politically
> correct socialist views on everything will only do one thing. Drive us
> into the poorhouse.
And more than that. Just wait until me and my liberal buddies get our
hands on your children: We're going to teach them to be homosexuals and
how to live their lives on welfare.
HA HA HAH!! Thanks to my key men in media, the government, CUSA and
OC-Transpo, in a few years you'll be bowing down to the mighty socialist
SATAN! And there's not a thing Preston Manning can do about it!
Thomas Collins
Steven Meece (sme...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> I know the rest of this newsgroup is going to regret me bringing up the
> subject of journalism with you, but if this is the calibre of journalists
> that we are turning out, it's another black mark against Carleton. Your
> debating skills are awfully weak, and you can't even pick up on the major
> points I'm trying to make. The anecdotes and parables you use to support
> your viewpoint are flimsy.
Please don't judge us all because of this one person. Most of us have
some idea what we're talking about. Trust me, this is not the calibre of
journalists that Carleton turns out. But the system isn't perfect. Some
people manage to slip on by.
Daniel Seaman
Distribution:
Zachary Houle (zho...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> No, I think that referendums and elections should have to have
> over half the population turn out in order to be a valid representation of
> what people think. That would be democracy. What we have now, at the
> CUSA level anyhow, is oligarchy.
By not voting you are allowing those who vote to represent you. If you not
think that those who will vote will not represent your views then vote. If
one person voted then the rest of the population has placed their faith in
that individual. Nobody was prevented from voting and nobody was forced to
vote and the yes side won - deal with it.
--------------
Daniel Seaman
Carleton University e-mail: dse...@chat.carleton.ca
"We have come to a period in the history of our country when we must decide
once and for all which shall prevail, profits or human welfare."
-J.S.Woodsworth
Zachary Houle
> I'm not writing for Reuters, I'm writing for me. Did I make my point? Did I
> show you as a fool? A great big A in the real world.
Is this all you can do??? Name call???
> > No, I think that referendums and elections should have to have
> > over half the population turn out in order to be a valid representation of
> > what people think.
> Will never happen. I don't have much sympathy for people who can't be
> bothered to vote. Since the day I turned 18, I've never missed any
> election. If I can do it, so can half of them.
I fail to see the logic of this argument. If you, as a socialist,
were trying to do things for the benefit of society and not the
individual, wouldn't you be interested see that the maximum amount of
people voted? Are we a hypocrite?
> > And you're also holding a gun to people's heads to get rid of
> > their cars. Some issues, such as time it takes to get to school, are more
> > important to some people than gas, parking, insurance, yadda, yadda.
> But according to you, they like to walk, which takes about 3x as long as a
> bus.
But, you're still evading my question: How is walking as oppossed
to riding the bus a lazy activity?
> > Right, you're a socialist and don't give a shit about what the individual
> > thinks. Some people hold part-time jobs just to make it through school,
> > and don't have to time to dick around with busess.
> How interesting that they don't have time to dick around with buses, but
> according to you, they do have time to dick around with walking.
I did not say that at all. I did acknowledge in my last post that
some people do like to take their car into school. Why should we penalize
them if they're trying to save time that way. You're mis-quoting me, I
believe, again.
> Don't secretly change your premise in the middle of the argument: That earns
> you a big fat F, I'm afraid!
I didn't. I thought I was quite clear when shifting over to another
point. If not, I apologize. After all, I am human unlike some people who
tend to reside here.
> > Dream on. Queen's has a bus pass program too. Did I choose to go
> > to Queen's because of it?
> To point out the obvious to those who are too dense to see it, the bus pass
> would simply be an added benefit, like Foot Patrol: It would not be the
> entire show.
Yes, but has *anyone* come to Carleton because we have a Foot
Patrol? You're being evasive.
> I know the rest of this newsgroup is going to regret me bringing up the
> subject of journalism with you, but if this is the calibre of journalists
> that we are turning out, it's another black mark against Carleton. Your
> debating skills are awfully weak, and you can't even pick up on the major
> points I'm trying to make. The anecdotes and parables you use to support
> your viewpoint are flimsy.
I can pick up on the major points you're trying to make. I'm
saying that they're oversimplistic and display selfish motivations on your
part. I thought I was quite clear.
> On the other hand, you'd be a great reporter for the Ottawa Sun. They'd
> hire you on the spot, because you used their magic words: "Right, you're a
> socialist and don't give a shit about what the individual thinks." This is
> the last words in most Sun articles today.
Really? I wouldn't know. I read the Citizen.
Zachary Houle
> > Yeah, she voted for it. That wasn't my point, though. She didn't
> > know a thing about it until I told her what the issue was. (Probably
> > should have kept my mouth shut. Would have made the NO vote margin a
> > little closer. ;-) ).
> There's journalistic ethics for you, ah zhole.
Tell me, do you know what a smiley is?
Zachary Houle
> Michal Wellum (mwe...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> HA HA HAH!! Thanks to my key men in media, the government, CUSA and
> OC-Transpo, in a few years you'll be bowing down to the mighty socialist
> SATAN! And there's not a thing Preston Manning can do about it!
Do we need any more proof that this guy is a loony and doesn't
know what the hell he's talking about?
Chris Salter
> > > No, I think that referendums and elections should have to have
> > > over half the population turn out in order to be a valid representation of
> > > what people think.
> > Will never happen. I don't have much sympathy for people who can't be
> > bothered to vote. Since the day I turned 18, I've never missed any
> > election. If I can do it, so can half of them.
> I fail to see the logic of this argument. If you, as a socialist,
> were trying to do things for the benefit of society and not the
> individual, wouldn't you be interested see that the maximum amount of
> people voted? Are we a hypocrite?
> Really? I wouldn't know. I read the Citizen.
You'd think you'd have picked something up.
Chris Salter
> > HA HA HAH!! Thanks to my key men in media, the government, CUSA and
> > OC-Transpo, in a few years you'll be bowing down to the mighty socialist
> > SATAN! And there's not a thing Preston Manning can do about it!
> Do we need any more proof that this guy is a loony and doesn't
> know what the hell he's talking about?
out all of HIS men and pretty soon the entire world will devote its
energies to building a huge throne made entirely of precious metals and
stones for me to sit on! HAHaHAHA!
Michal Wellum
> > space you are. Fuck you, buddy. Yes I voted no. So I do have the right to
> > bitch. Your attitude leaves somthing to be desired. Your politically
> > correct socialist views on everything will only do one thing. Drive us
> > into the poorhouse.
> a minute.
What can I say, This issue continues to aggrevate me. I have turned flame
mode off, though... BUT... Mr. Meece does have that certain ability to
push that button that sez... "Push me to Annoy Mike". If Meece wants an
apology, I will give it, but this bus pass thing still sucks shit no
matter how you look at it...
Andrew Metcalfe
> Do we need any more proof that this guy is a loony and doesn't
>know what the hell he's talking about?
Pot? Kettle? naw....
--
Andrew Metcalfe
Canadian Studies at Carleton University.
End User Education, Metcalfe Consulting, Toronto Free-Net.
See the best of Carleton's webspace at http://www.carleton.ca/bestof
Michal Wellum
> > I think we sould form a Meece is an ASSHOLE club.
> I'm there....
>
I just knew YOU would be Robbie... BTW, did you have as good a time as I
did... I'm still in pain, dude!
Christopher Bird
> > > HA HA HAH!! Thanks to my key men in media, the government, CUSA and
> > > OC-Transpo, in a few years you'll be bowing down to the mighty socialist
> > > SATAN! And there's not a thing Preston Manning can do about it!
> > Do we need any more proof that this guy is a loony and doesn't
> > know what the hell he's talking about?
> Hell no! MY men in government and mighty corporations have already bought
> out all of HIS men and pretty soon the entire world will devote its
> energies to building a huge throne made entirely of precious metals and
> stones for me to sit on! HAHaHAHA!
What does it matter? You pitiful fools, continuing on and on about your
"corporations" and "conspiracies". They matter not, for soon Cthulhu will
rise, and eat everyone who does not fall to their knees in abject worship
beforehand!
Chris "Mu-hu-hu-hahaha etc." Bird
=========================================================================
"Did you think to kill me? There's no flesh or blood within this cloak
to kill. There's only an idea. Ideas are bulletproof." --"V For Vendetta
* Visit the Church of Cthulhu at http://chat.carleton.ca/~cbird *
===========================GO CTHULHU IN '96!============================
Zachary Houle
> zho...@chat.carleton.ca (Zachary Houle) wrote:
> > Do we need any more proof that this guy is a loony and doesn't
> >know what the hell he's talking about?
> Pot? Kettle? naw....
Sigh. Gotta love those people who just insult and can't say
anything else, eh?
Zachary Houle
> How does socialism involve having everyone vote? Did I miss something?
Oh right. You guys want to gain power like everyone else. Forgot
about that. Thought for a minute that you wanted to do something that
would benefit the greatest amount of people.
> > Really? I wouldn't know. I read the Citizen.
> You'd think you'd have picked something up.
Actually, I have my odd beef against the Citizen you know too.
Michal Wellum
> > HA HA HAH!! Thanks to my key men in media, the government, CUSA and
> > OC-Transpo, in a few years you'll be bowing down to the mighty socialist
> > SATAN! And there's not a thing Preston Manning can do about it!
> Do we need any more proof that this guy is a loony and doesn't
> know what the hell he's talking about?
> Zachary Houle - Carleton University
> Journalism II email address: zho...@chat.carleton.ca
> NUG rep - 2nd year Journalism
I know I'm nuts, but geez...
Allan Cybulskie
> > > > > Now that the bus pass has been voted into
> > > > > effect, I suggest that instead of declaring that you refuse to use your
> > > > > pass, your interests would be better served by thinking up ways to use
> > > > > what you have just bought.
> > > >
> > > > How?
> >
> > This is quote manipulation. In J-ism, you'd get a great big F if
> > you did that.
> I'm not writing for Reuters, I'm writing for me. Did I make my point? Did I
> show you as a fool? A great big A in the real world.
If you deliberately misquote someone to show that "they are a fool", a)
you'd better do it and b) you generally lose half your argument because
misquoting is not considered terribly acceptable ...
> > No, I think that referendums and elections should have to have
> > over half the population turn out in order to be a valid representation of
> > what people think.
> > And you're also holding a gun to people's heads to get rid of
> > their cars. Some issues, such as time it takes to get to school, are more
> > important to some people than gas, parking, insurance, yadda, yadda.
> But according to you, they like to walk, which takes about 3x as long as a
> bus.
Incorrect. See my anecdote. It usually takes me about as long to get
somewhere walking as by the bus (because you have to wait for the bus to
show up) and sometimes it's shorter. And walking is a lot healthier ...
> It does not hold a gun any more than the athletics levy holds a gun to
> people's heads to force them to get rid of their home stairmaster or
> something.
There's more to the athletics facility than a stairmaster. I wish the
same could be said about the bus pass ..
> > Right, you're a socialist and don't give a shit about what the individual
> > thinks. Some people hold part-time jobs just to make it through school,
> > and don't have to time to dick around with busess.
> How interesting that they don't have time to dick around with buses, but
> according to you, they do have time to dick around with walking.
Which in many cases is faster (or as fast) but a lot more flexible.
> Don't secretly change your premise in the middle of the argument: That earns
> you a big fat F, I'm afraid!
He didn't. People who live close enough to walk will get to Carleton
faster without the bus, but people who choose to drive do so in order to
save time spent waiting for a bus to show up.
> > Dream on. Queen's has a bus pass program too. Did I choose to go
> > to Queen's because of it?
> To point out the obvious to those who are too dense to see it, the bus pass
> would simply be an added benefit, like Foot Patrol: It would not be the
> entire show.
Nobody will care if we have the bus pass or not. Trust me ...
Chris Salter
> > Glad to see that you've managed to stay above the level of mere
> > name-calling, and kept mindless flaming out of this thread. Oh, no, wait
> > a minute.
> What can I say, This issue continues to aggrevate me. I have turned flame
> mode off, though... BUT... Mr. Meece does have that certain ability to
> push that button that sez... "Push me to Annoy Mike". If Meece wants an
> apology, I will give it, but this bus pass thing still sucks shit no
> matter how you look at it...
people agree with me, apparently... and a lot of other people didn't care.
Chris Salter
> > How does socialism involve having everyone vote? Did I miss something?
> Oh right. You guys want to gain power like everyone else. Forgot
> about that. Thought for a minute that you wanted to do something that
> would benefit the greatest amount of people.
and *CONCERNED* people to vote helps everyone. The information was out
there, and anyone who didn't take time to do some research shouldn't be
voting. I'd love to have a society where nobody was apathetic, but,
sadly, this isn't it.
> > > Really? I wouldn't know. I read the Citizen.
> > You'd think you'd have picked something up.
> Actually, I have my odd beef against the Citizen you know too.
I'm happy to hear that. What are those odd beefs?
Peter Nogalo
> trand.ccs.carleton.ca> <4grupf$3...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> Distribution:
> Steven Meece (sme...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > I know the rest of this newsgroup is going to regret me bringing up the
> > subject of journalism with you, but if this is the calibre of journalists
> > that we are turning out, it's another black mark against Carleton. Your
> > debating skills are awfully weak, and you can't even pick up on the major
> > points I'm trying to make. The anecdotes and parables you use to support
> > your viewpoint are flimsy.
> Please don't judge us all because of this one person. Most of us have
> some idea what we're talking about. Trust me, this is not the calibre of
> journalists that Carleton turns out. But the system isn't perfect. Some
> people manage to slip on by.
And??? I've made an entire J-school career of it :)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:: ::
:: I'm a role model because I'm a damn good person. And if that is ::
:: not enough, then they can lick my ass...Sandra Bernhard. ::
:: ::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Nogalo
Carleton University
Email address: pno...@chat.carleton.ca
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Meece
> > I'm not writing for Reuters, I'm writing for me. Did I make my point? Did I
> > show you as a fool? A great big A in the real world.
>
> Is this all you can do??? Name call???
No, it's not 'all' I can do -- it was just a little aside. If the shoe
fits...
> How is walking as oppossed to riding the bus a lazy activity?
In the search for justification, you've latched onto the very small
percentage of people who decide to walk everywhere instead of taking any
form of wheel transport. Very well, I shall humour your devil's advocacy, and
show how pedestrians too will benefit thusly:
- The bus pass is not a shuttle into Carleton. It works on the entire O-C
Transpo and STO system at all times of operation. Hence, if you happen to
live on Sunnyside and walk into campus and thus never have a need for
external transport to school, you are able to use your pass to goto the
Market instead, or the Palladium, or the museums.
- It only takes one round trip per week to break even.
- Surely even the most dedicated walker will find a reason to go beyond
walking distance once per week.
No, you say? They walk because they like walking? They are not being
prevented from walking. Walking is still free and they can do that as much
as they like.
No, you say? They walk because they can't afford the bus, even at $17.50
for unlimited use for a month? Very well then: Forgive me for sounding
like Tsunabouchi, but here are two simple ways that people can 'save' that
amount of money by using the pass.
- Use the pass to give yourself access to discount supermarkets and retail
outlets, most of which are located in the far burbs.
- Use the pass to survive living in Vanier or Hull, which have apartments
that are often $200 cheaper than Ottawa prices.
No, you say? They already walk to Carleton from Hull daily and shop at the
Price Club in Nepean on foot? This is an extreme level of povertous
asceticism. If people have five hours a day to kill by walking around town,
their interests would be better served working in a part-time job, or at least
looking for one.
> > To point out the obvious to those who are too dense to see it, the bus
pass
> > would simply be an added benefit, like Foot Patrol: It would not be the
> > entire show.
>
> Yes, but has *anyone* come to Carleton because we have a Foot
> Patrol? You're being evasive.
To point out the obvious again to those who are still too dense to see it, the
bus pass would simply be an added benefit, like Foot Patrol: It would not be
the entire show. No-one has come to Carleton simply because we have a Muslim
Students' Association, but there are many prospective students who were
glad to see that we did. Ditto Foot Patrol, ditto bus pass.
Dave O'Neill
Steven Meece (sme...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> - The bus pass is not a shuttle into Carleton. It works on the entire O-C
> Transpo and STO system at all times of operation. Hence, if you happen to
> live on Sunnyside and walk into campus and thus never have a need for
> external transport to school, you are able to use your pass to goto the
> Market instead, or the Palladium, or the museums.
It took me 3 hours to get to the Palladium one day for a job fair... While
it took my friend's car 15 minutes. Which one sounds better?
> - It only takes one round trip per week to break even.
I sure wish that the pro-bus people would quit lying about this. It's
true that it would be 1 trip per week, if it were a full year bus pas, BUT
IT'S NOT. The pass will only be for the school year, and one trip a week
would come out to less than $100.
> - Surely even the most dedicated walker will find a reason to go beyond
> walking distance once per week.
Hmmm... I've taken the bus downtown, and walked back almost every time.
OC Transpo is almost always late, and when the bus does show up, it is
usually so full that the driver doesn't even stop.
> No, you say? They walk because they like walking? They are not being
> prevented from walking. Walking is still free and they can do that as much
> as they like.
No, it will cost us $140 next year. Personally _I_ walk because the bus
service sucks and I don't have a car.
> No, you say? They walk because they can't afford the bus, even at $17.50
> for unlimited use for a month? Very well then: Forgive me for sounding
> like Tsunabouchi, but here are two simple ways that people can 'save' that
> amount of money by using the pass.
> - Use the pass to give yourself access to discount supermarkets and retail
> outlets, most of which are located in the far burbs.
_That_'s realistic... I just love trying to carry groceries home by myself
on a bus
> - Use the pass to survive living in Vanier or Hull, which have apartments
> that are often $200 cheaper than Ottawa prices.
And have to get up at 5:00 in the morning to make it to Carleton for an
8:30 class? I don't think so. The bus pas may be a good deal for Ottawa
U students seeing as how they have 5 0r 6 bus routes to campus, plus the
Transitway, and all the downtown buses within a short distance. However,
we only have the 7, the 118, and whatever the one on Bronson is (the 4
???). I'm not willing to pay $140 for the service that we get.
- dmon...@chat.carleton.ca -> Dave O'Neill <- da533@ freenet.carleton.ca -
"Love is suicide..." - Smashing Pumpkins
- -- --- ---- -----> http://chat.carleton.ca/~dmoneill <----- ---- --- -- -
Dave O'Neill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PROS: Frequent bus users will save money.
May encourage more people to take the bus.
CONS: Will cost infrequent users more.
Abysmal service -- at best.
Only good for the school year.
Non-refundable to those who drive.
Now, what do you think about that? I will probably be a bus-taker next
year, and I am still opposed to the idea of forcing all students to pay
for a service that they won't use.
If OC Transpo makes improvements to their service -- such as more
routes, more frequent buses, better weekend service, then I would be all
for it. However, OC has said nothing about improving service, and has not
ruled out cutting service (due to cutbacks in provincial grants). If we
are paying them several million dollars, then we should expect some
improvement in service.
Steven Meece
> I sure wish that the pro-bus people would quit lying about this. It's
> true that it would be 1 trip per week, if it were a full year bus pas, BUT
> IT'S NOT. The pass will only be for the school year, and one trip a week
> would come out to less than $100.
$140 per year / 8 months = $17.50 per month.
$17.50 per month / 4 weeks = $4.38 per week.
Each round trip is otherwise $3.70, so to be technical, you would have to
take 1.1837837838 round trips per week to break even.
$4.38 wk x 4 wks x 8 mths = $140.16.
Steven Meece
> The Bus Pass.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> PROS: Frequent bus users will save money.
> May encourage more people to take the bus.
Won a referendum.
> CONS: Will cost infrequent users more.
> Abysmal service -- at best.
> Only good for the school year.
> Non-refundable to those who drive.
Lost a referendum.
> Now, what do you think about that?
Dave O'Neill
> > I sure wish that the pro-bus people would quit lying about this. It's
> > true that it would be 1 trip per week, if it were a full year bus pas, BUT
> > IT'S NOT. The pass will only be for the school year, and one trip a week
> > would come out to less than $100.
> $140 per year / 8 months = $17.50 per month.
> $17.50 per month / 4 weeks = $4.38 per week.
Actually, $3.70 x 4 weeks x 8 months = $118.40, not taking into
account Christmas, reading week, and half of April, when a lot of students
are out of town and not taking the bus. Going by my schedule, which, I
guess is fairly typical for a first year student, (Don't say it,
Meece...) if I took the bus once a week, I would spend slightly less than
$100 (at regular fare, but since I buy tickets, which are cheaper, it's
even less...)
The point is that students who don't take the bus get shafted, while the
students who do get a free ride (or at least a cheaper one). The majority
of students do not regularily take the bus, but the majority of students
did not vote, so I guess we're stuck with it. Thank you to the greedy few
for voting yes to stealing from my pocket.
Allan Cybulskie
<4gt59u$c...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>:
<4gud1f$4...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <4gv8u9$s...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <4gvb4f$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>:
Distribution:
Steven Meece (sme...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> Dave O'Neill (dmon...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> > I sure wish that the pro-bus people would quit lying about this. It's
> > true that it would be 1 trip per week, if it were a full year bus pas, BUT
> > IT'S NOT. The pass will only be for the school year, and one trip a week
> > would come out to less than $100.
> $140 per year / 8 months = $17.50 per month.
> $17.50 per month / 4 weeks = $4.38 per week.
These weeks, though, also count Christmas break, Reading week, and that
period at the end of April when your exams have ended. A lot of people
aren't in Ottawa during those times, so you should subtract a month from
your estimate ...
Thomas Collins
<4gt59u$c...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <4gud1f$4...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <4gv8u9$s...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>
Distribution:
Dave O'Neill (dmon...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> I sure wish that the pro-bus people would quit lying about this. It's
> true that it would be 1 trip per week, if it were a full year bus pas, BUT
> IT'S NOT. The pass will only be for the school year, and one trip a week
> would come out to less than $100.
After taking off the Xmas break, and reading week, there are 30 weeks
left to the school year. If you take one round trip a week, it's $3.70.
So we have:
30 weeks X 1 ride a week X $3.70 = $111.00
It's off by only 8 more round trips over the year. Take those extra 8,
and add them on to the 30 rides for the 30 weeks. We have 38 rides. So,
we now have:
38 bus rides divided by 30 weeks = 1.26 bus rides a week. Round it off,
and you have one bus ride a week.
Maybe some people would like to go out twice on the weekends sometimes,
and this would be a case where they have those extra 8 working for them.
Maybe they forgot something at the grocery store or something. Here's
where those extra 8 come into play.
> And have to get up at 5:00 in the morning to make it to Carleton for an
> 8:30 class? I don't think so. The bus pas may be a good deal for Ottawa
> U students seeing as how they have 5 0r 6 bus routes to campus, plus the
> Transitway, and all the downtown buses within a short distance. However,
> we only have the 7, the 118, and whatever the one on Bronson is (the 4
> ???). I'm not willing to pay $140 for the service that we get.
Don't forget the 3 and the 13. I take the 3, and it stops just outside
experimental farm. I have to welk for about 5 minutes from there to here.
draby
> I have been at Carleton for four years now, and nothing has pissed me off
> more than this. Including all the tuition hikes - at least I can
> understand them. Is there anyone out there, who might have suggestions on
> how we can fight this mandatory bus fee. Or have any information that
> they could add.
> Sincerely,
> Martin.
Well Martin you are correct that OC is already subsidized. I
believe that 100% of capital expenditures (70% prov. 30% regional) and 40%
of operating costs (25% prov. 15% regional) are the figures. That means
not one dime of the cost of the transitway, the purchase of buses or the
construction of OC headquarters was paid for by riders. To boot the sale of
bus passes and the old change bucket only brings in 60% of the operating
costs.
Anyways I believe the CUSA constitution states there has to be an
effective no campaign for any referendum vote to stick. In this case there
was obviously not such a campaign.
Several people I have talked to have been thinking of just not
paying it.
DOUG RABY "NO NOW GO AWAY BEFORE I AM FORCED TO TAUNT YOU A SECOND TIME"
a very smart french person somewhere in Mercia during
the reign of the right honorable
King Art
LATER
Evan Hughes
> Well Martin you are correct that OC is already subsidized. I
> believe that 100% of capital expenditures (70% prov. 30% regional) and 40%
> of operating costs (25% prov. 15% regional) are the figures. That means
> not one dime of the cost of the transitway, the purchase of buses or the
> construction of OC headquarters was paid for by riders. To boot the sale of
> bus passes and the old change bucket only brings in 60% of the operating
> costs.
*laugh* Of course it's subsidized, it's public transit. Public transit
isn't designed to turn a profit (even though it's nice when they do), only
to provide a necessary service.
Evan Hughes | Webmaster
Honours Computer Science | Carleton Computer Science Society
http://chat.carleton.ca/~ehughes | http://omega.scs.carleton.ca/~ccss
draby
> *laugh* Of course it's subsidized, it's public transit. Public transit
> isn't designed to turn a profit (even though it's nice when they do), only
> to provide a necessary service.
Take off the sunglass, so you can see the point! I was just trying to say
that OC is already funded by all the taxpayers in Ontario and RMOC to make
it affordable.
I would like the socialists to consider a point. The entire idea
of subsidies is to take from the advantaged and give to the needy. NOT to
screw one poor tuna eating, winter walking (to school), penny pinching
student so another can save money to buy more tuna (or even canned ham if
they budget properly).
Just thought I'd remind people that the people bitching about the
$140 (like myself) are not the upper middle class.
Dennis Pare
those who live in residence. To get your money's worth, you only have to
make one round trip per week, which is not difficult. Having a bus pass
gives you freedom of transportation in the city, it saves on CO2
emissions, and helps the local economy on a broader sense. So stop
whining and get used to the fact that you are going to have a bus pass
next year. And if the majority of students didn't want this deal, then the
majority would have voted it down.
BTW, do you think people raised this much of a fuss when the athletics
department started charging a fee for everyone? I haven't used it yet
(Although I do plan on taking advantage of it!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dennis Pare
Carleton University
Biochemistry
Email address: dp...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Erin Coe
Vernon Nielsen (ve...@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca) wrote:
> For crying out loud people! Shit happens. It's only $140. If you get a
> job at $7/hr (PDClose to minimum wage), all you have to do is work 2.5
Vern, you should know better than most that some of us don't have time to
work (or do anything else, thanks to that damn Power midterm on Wednesday
and the Calculus test next Tuesday!). This stupid bus pass is gonna be one
more thing that means I am _just_ short of having enough money to pay for
my residence, so I have to take out another used car's worth in student
loans...
And speaking of living in res., what the hell am I going to do with a bus
pass? Go out? What do you think I am, an arts student? :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erin Coe
Carleton U. Mechie Everybody is somebody else's weirdo.
Email: ec...@chat.carleton.ca
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McCartney
> You want to know who to blame for this fiasco? Not OCTranspo -- hey,
> they're just trying to gouge a profit from us, as any respectable business
> might do. No, no -- blame goes to your FELLOW STUDENTS, or at least the
> ones who couldn't be bothered to take 60 seconds of their precious time to
> vote AGAINST (or at all) this ridiculous proposal. Thanks to the several
> thousand of them, we (and they) all get to pay $140 EXTRA for NOTHING!!!
> Yes, I realize that campus politics and elections may seem like a waste of
> time to most, but issues that cost starving student $$$$ are worth paying
> attention to (unless Mommy and Daddy are paying for you to muck around here).
> As for buses, I happen to be an environmentalist, so I actually support
> the notion of mass transit. But progess isn't achieved by putting gun to
> our heads and FORCING it on us. Especially if you walk/bike/blade to school.
> Ian Meredith
> Environmental Science
If it makes you feel better the current rumour is that the bus pass will
be rerun, since Peter Nogalo(Jamie Heath's Campaign manager) was the
primary reason Jamie Heath was disqualified, and also the primary promoter
of the bus pass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McCartney----Electrical Engineering III
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
"So he says,'I like the cut of your gyp!', so I says,'IT'S THE ONLY
GYP I GOT BABY!!!!"-The Evil Mad Bomber What Bombs At Midnight
Email address: mmcc...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------