Carleton Students Occupying Van Loon's Office - need support
Sean Hay
Carol Hodgson (co...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
:
:
: Morever, we will not accept arrangements the university has made with the
: faculty and staff as justification for any tuition or fee increases, nor
: will we accept any further layoffs or cutbacks to faculty and staff as a
: solution for a zero tuition increase..
:
So, basically, you want the administration to waive its little wand, and
make all better, just by willing it so. Sure!
: 4) Student Services
:
: i) Funding for the eight service centres operated by the Carleton
: University Students' Association;
:
Does the CUSA exec know about this, and sanction these demands? If they
do, and did, then they may have some problems in gaining administration
cooperation in the near future. Besides, you get the school to start
paying into our service centres, you get,.. uh-oh, tuition increases, and
potentially administration dictating how services are run, including the
GLB. Is that what you want?
You see, I have problems with this type of demonstration, because it never
seems very well planned, and doesn't really seem to represent the entire
student body. In my humble opinion, tactics like storming an office, or
willfully disrupting other peoples business never generates a positive
response, or amicable results.
Full Student Body Representation:
Now, I noticed in this list of demands is the ability to be
allowed to fly the rainbow flag on campus during BGLAD week. I agree that
the GLB has a good argument for freedom of expression, but I don't think
that this should be lumped into demands the entire school has with respect
to tuition.
Planning:
The organization of this demonstration does not seem to be very
well planned. If the document I saw posted here, was the same document
that went to the administration, then you should all have a problem with
it.
Demands like no decreases in staff, with no increases in tuition, are
unreasonable. Carleton has accumulated a significant debt due to some
mismanagement of funds, but largely unpreparedness for this most recent
rash of government cuts. If you make these types of demands, you
basically seal the fate of the University, for maybe five more years.
Even a first year economics student can recognize by looking at the books,
that more changes need to be made to recover from our current predicament.
Therefore, these demands are ill-prepared, not well thought out, and will
be viewed as irrational by the administration.
Irrational Approach
Nobody likes to be bullied, and by attempting this to an organization that
obviously has more power and position that your organization, you
basically create a poor relationship, and lose negotiating presence. In
my opinion: You've already made the mistake of trying to represent small
interest groups on campus; you've erred in not making rational demands of
the administration; you've not kept a focus in your list of demands, I'll
comment on that now.
The initial intent of this demonstration was to demand a freeze on tuition
increases from the University in the upcoming year. Thats not a bad
start, but you kept going:
ii) Increase funding for arts programmimg on campus.
iii) An increase in the number of subsidizes day care spaces for student
parents.
iv) The reintroduction of supplemental examinations;
v) The allowance to fly the rainbow flag during BGLAD week. I
think you would have been more effective by giving less, more reasonable
demands on the University. I don't think you will ever receive all of the
demands, and I believe you don't expect to. But if I were on the other
side, however, I would see a wide range of irrational demands, a
disorganized approach, and would not believe the students were really
prepared, or well versed in the issues they were trying to address, but
rather reacting a little prematurely, without thinking the whole scenario
through(as young kids do these days, you know...). This loses us
credibility in the eyes of the administration, and reduces our bargaining
power. Above were just a few of the demands that you mentioned, there were
many more that skewed the argument, and dumped a lot of the student
problems onto the administration(funding for service centres, for
example).
Therefore, there were three glaring errors I thought I saw in the approach
of this demonstration:
- lack of organization, and preparation
- lack of focus, or wide ranging demands, not related to
the main issue
- wrong approach, like bullying.
If I were you, I would ask your student President, who does practice
diplomacy quite well, I must admit, to negotiate a quick exit for your
students. I believe this will maintain amnesty for protestants, for the
longer they are there, the more bleak their predicament becomes. Also, by
getting our student leader, our student voice, to get our demonstrators to
willfully cease their demonstration, it proves that:
- Yes, there is a problem that the entire student body recognizes,
but that demonstration was not sanctioned by the entire student populous.
- Gains favour with the administration, by giving us a bargaining
advantage. Christian can apologize for the students outburst, but say
that he can't really blame their sentiments. Then, he should set up a
meeting to tackle the most critical issue(s), being tuition, or whatever
the group that is in Van Loon's office wishes Christian to bring up. By
regaining diplomacy with the office, we make our point, and don't upset
them any more than we already have.
Yes, I know this is long-winded, but there were other problems I saw with
the document I read. This really just covered the main them behind the
problems I saw in the approach of this demonstration.
--
Sean Hay
Vice President: Carleton Student Engineering Society
Board of Govornors: EngSoc Project
http://www.engsoc.carleton.ca/~sean
Rob Russell
In carleton.students.undergrad Sean Hay <se...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote:
: So, basically, you want the administration to waive its little wand, and
: make all better, just by willing it so. Sure!
That's not how things work? You mean there are effective methods of
communication already in place?? wow.
: Does the CUSA exec know about this, and sanction these demands?
I've been told that this was organized and spearheaded (from a reliable
KU$A 'weasel') by Jeff Jakobsen, the KU$A d. Academics.
: If they
: do, and did, then they may have some problems in gaining administration
: cooperation in the near future. Besides, you get the school to start
: paying into our service centres, you get,.. uh-oh, tuition increases, and
: potentially administration dictating how services are run, including the
: GLB. Is that what you want?
They don't seem to have an eye on either the future, or the big picture.
: You see, I have problems with this type of demonstration, because it never
: seems very well planned, and doesn't really seem to represent the entire
: student body. In my humble opinion, tactics like storming an office, or
: willfully disrupting other peoples business never generates a positive
: response, or amicable results.
I believe a simmilar demonstration was mounted at York and the students
were arrested. Further, I think their "demand" for "amnesty" is
ridiculous - all it shows is that they recognize that they're doing a bad
thing. Sane people just don't do the bad things!
: The organization of this demonstration does not seem to be very
: well planned. If the document I saw posted here, was the same document
: that went to the administration, then you should all have a problem with
: it.
I not only have problems with the document, I have problems with the
procedure followed. Rather than putting an open letter out and waiting
for a response from both students and administration, they jumped right in
to a sit-in. You get a LOT more with please and thank-you than you'll
ever get with this childishness.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Robert Russell, \ / Rob_R...@Ottawa.Com
Carleton University x--o8o--x 2nd Year, Mech/Aero
http://wabakimi.carleton.ca/~rrussell
Director of Publications - Carleton Student Engineering Society
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Rob Russell
In carleton.cusa.general Garry Wilton <gwi...@lager.engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote:
: DITO.
Ditto has two 't's.
Carol Hodgson
As of 7:45 this morning 15 Carleton University students commenced an
occupation of President Richard Van Loon's office. The students of
Carleton Univ
ersity demand the following:
1) Tuition
i) That the Carleton University administration not increase tuition, and
that the university administration publicly denoucne the province's
invitation to a ten per cent discretionary tuition increase;
ii) That the University reinstate post-residency fees for graduate
students.
2) Fees:
i) The elimination of user fees for such things as ITV, the Awards
Office,
and Athletics;
ii) Additionally a commitment by the University that it will not
attempt to
introduce any type of "technology fee".
Morever, we will not accept arrangements the university has made with the
faculty and staff as justification for any tuition or fee increases, nor
will we accept any further layoffs or cutbacks to faculty and staff as a
solution for a zero tuition increase..
3) Student Voice
i) An increase in the student representation on the Carleton University
Board of Governors and Senate;
ii) The creation of an external advisory committee to the Board of
Governors
to liaise with the provincial government;
iii) The allowance of part-time students to sit as departmental board
member
s.
4) Student Services
i) Funding for the eight service centres operated by the Carleton
University
Students' Association;
ii) Increase funding for arts programmimg on campus.
iii) An increase in the number of subsidizes day care spaces for student
parents.
iv) The reintroduction of supplemental examinations;
v) The allowance to fly the rainbow flag during BGLAD week.
5) Amnesty
i) Full amnesty to those students occupying and demonstrating in
favour of
the above demands.
You can support the efforts of the students by
Carleton students, staff and faculty
signing the petition in Bakers Lounge
wearing a black and red armband in support
joining the information pickets outside the Admin building
have your club, union or campus organization send letters of support
attend a rally thursday at noon on Admin lawn
Supportive folks outside Carleton
fax in letters of endorsement and support
e-mail letters of support
Phone/Fax your support
Dr. Van Loon - (613) 520-3801 Ph (613) 520-4474 (fax)
Dr. John ApSimon (613) 520-3806 ph (613) 520-2538 fax
Dr. Spruce Riordon (613) 520-3804 ph (613) 520-4474
Minister of Education and Training John Snobelen
(416) 325-2600 ph (416) 325-2608 fax
Mac Harb MP Ottawa-Centre (613) 996-5321 ph (613) 996-5223 fax
Dalton McGuinty MPP Ottawa-Centre
(416) 325-7236 ph (416) 325-9004 fax
e-mail your support to
richard_...@carleton.ca
john_a...@carleton.ca
rio...@carleton.ca
Ian J. Mckenna
Please paint over the picture of Tommy Douglas in the tunnel. It is
insulting to have to walk by the picture of a man who advocated castrating
immigrants and the mentally retarded everyday. I urge the NDP club to
remove this racist from the tunnel wall.
Sean Maguire
Yes, I believe everyone heard you in yesterday's post.
[Irritating Maple Leaf Garden's voice]
Ian McKenna, two minutes for taunting, time....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Maguire, B.A., M.A., M.A.
Email address: spma...@chat.carleton.ca
Web Page >>> http://chat.carleton.ca/~spmaguir
This has been a public service announcement brought to you by Kraft,
maker of Velveeta, America's best-loved petroleum-byproduct cheese
substitute. Nothing tastes more like Velveeta than Velveeta, except
more Velveeta, or really gross cheese.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian J. Mckenna
Sean Maguire (spma...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> Yes, I believe everyone heard you in yesterday's post.
No, I don't think they did, as that racist Tommy Douglas' ugly mug still
stains the tunnel wall.
> [Irritating Maple Leaf Garden's voice]
>
> Ian McKenna, two minutes for taunting, time....
>
How about a one game suspension.
Daniel McHardie
Ian J. Mckenna wrote:
> How about a one game suspension.
We wouldn't be so lucky.
In solidarity
Dan
Ian J. Mckenna
Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> Ian J. Mckenna wrote:
>
>> How about a one game suspension.
>
> We wouldn't be so lucky.
You would probably be luckier if you took down the monument to that racist
Tommy Douglas.
>
> In solidarity
>
Maybe your tiny NDP club could, in an act of solidarity, take a can of
paint and paint over the picture of that intolerant racist Tommy Douglas.
> Dan
Ian J. Mckenna
Sean Maguire (spma...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> What was that you said about Tommy Douglas? We didn't quite hear you the
> first dozen or so times you said it....
No, I don't think you heard me, because I walked by the NDP board in the
tunnel and that racist intolerant religious nutcase today is still there.
>
>> Maybe your tiny NDP club could, in an act of solidarity, take a can of
>> paint and paint over the picture of that intolerant racist Tommy Douglas.
>
> Please add "very dead" to your set of adjectives.
I will add that adjective to the NDP.
> By the way, Angus Reid sez you're still tied with them Ian......
Well Angus can say what he wants. In my riding, we have the biggest
association, the most money and 4 very good potential candidates. I
would think that Ottawa isn't a typical Reform kind of place, so only
imagine what the support is like in Reform kinds of places.
Once again, what is the name of the leader of the NDP? Most of us forget.
Charlie Younghusband
This actually made the news.
What I want to know, is how do we show opposition for what they are doing?
How about a sit-in to oppose the sit-in. Yeah, right.
Not only are they demanding for a magic wand solution, but their entire
list of demands makes them look very stupid indeed. I sincerely hope (and
so for I'm confident) that the President will not concede to any of their
demands; doing so would seriously compromise the future of Carleton in
return for a student saving $ 300. It makes us look like were mostly just
interested in an 'economy' education. Though I agree that university
education should be made as accessible as possible, the President really
doesn't have any choice in the matter.
I chuckle to think that they have announced that they intend to continue
into reading week. If they were to pick up a part time job instead of
sitting around, they could not only make up for any tuition increases, but
everyone would be better served.
Charlie Younghusband
Carol Hodgson (co...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
:
:
:
: As of 7:45 this morning 15 Carleton University students commenced an
Daniel McHardie
Chris Belway wrote:
> Just get rid of the mural-after all, students need "freedom from" such
> offensive material, don't they, Dan? After all, you should be thankful
> more than anyone else that Douglas' policies were never implemented.
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Sean Maguire
You know what it means.....he's insulting you with cheap shots. You
should not be surprised.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Maguire, M.P.A. Student
Ian J. Mckenna
Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> Chris Belway wrote:
>
>> Just get rid of the mural-after all, students need "freedom from" such
>> offensive material, don't they, Dan? After all, you should be thankful
>> more than anyone else that Douglas' policies were never implemented.
>
> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
I think this means take down the picture of Tommy Douglas, founder of the
NDP, and proven racist.
Ian J. Mckenna
Sean Maguire (spma...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
>> > Just get rid of the mural-after all, students need "freedom from" such
>> > offensive material, don't they, Dan? After all, you should be thankful
>> > more than anyone else that Douglas' policies were never implemented.
>
>> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
>
> You know what it means.....he's insulting you with cheap shots. You
> should not be surprised.
I would be surprised if the NDP at Carleton starts to practice what it
preaches. I would be surprised if they actually did something to stop
racism and take down the painting of that intolerant racist Tommy Douglas.
Chris Belway
Ian J. Mckenna (cc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
>> Chris Belway wrote:
>>
>>> Just get rid of the mural-after all, students need "freedom from" such
>>> offensive material, don't they, Dan? After all, you should be thankful
>>> more than anyone else that Douglas' policies were never implemented.
>>
>> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
>
> I think this means take down the picture of Tommy Douglas, founder of the
> NDP, and proven racist.
That's exactly what it means.
Jeff Jedras
Ian J. Mckenna (cc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> Maybe one of the Oliver's drunks will urinate on that racist bastard's
> picture next Wednesday!
Come on now Ian. Why pick on the NDP? It's just to easy. With only a few
seats in the back corner of the house, and their leader missing in
inaction, it just isn't sporting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Jedras "I'd rather laugh with the
Journalism/History sinners than cry with the
Carleton University saints, the sinners are
Ottawa, Ontario much more fun."
CANADA - Billy Joel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian J. Mckenna
Jeff Jedras (jje...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> Ian J. Mckenna (cc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>> Maybe one of the Oliver's drunks will urinate on that racist bastard's
>> picture next Wednesday!
>
> Come on now Ian. Why pick on the NDP? It's just to easy. With only a few
> seats in the back corner of the house, and their leader missing in
> inaction, it just isn't sporting.
>
Maybe not. But it is still angering to see the picture of that racist
bastard Tommy Douglas every day in the tunnel.
Chris Belway
Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> Chris Belway wrote:
>
>> Just get rid of the mural-after all, students need "freedom from" such
>> offensive material, don't they, Dan? After all, you should be thankful
>> more than anyone else that Douglas' policies were never implemented.
>
> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Dan's a supporter of the federal NDP, is he not?
C.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Because, my dear brother,my observations lead me to suppose that
free thinking women are monstrosities".-Bazarov, in Ivan
Turgenev's "Fathers and Sons"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel McHardie
Ian J. Mckenna wrote:
> > Dan's a supporter of the federal NDP, is he not?
Ian you have to learn to check your facts. I am a Charlatan reporter.
Yes, you have me on that point. You know where my leanings are, and they
aren't with the openly racist Reform Party. Tell me Ian if the Party
wasn't an extremist party, why would they dedicate over three hours of a
YOUTH convention to learning how to deal with reporters and not come
across as extremist. Everytime your leader opens his mouth he has to
bash the media in some way or another. Just like the entire party, he
has no class.
There is no way you could ever be a reporter Ian you just don't check
the facts oh and . . . well I think you have an idea what goes in the
blank. Ian I am going to be nice when I say this, your endless rhetoric
is getting a bit tiring, maybe you should go and help out your riding,
they are going to need all the help they can get. Otherwords, you have
way too much free time on your hands.
In solidarity
Dan
Daniel McHardie
Ian J. Mckenna wrote:
> I don't know. You were there. I wasn't.
Too embarrassed? I would be.
> Did I ever say I wanted to be a reporter? And as for your
> reporting skills - they leave a little to be desired. Why do you hide
> your political affiliation in your Charlatan reports? Are you ashamed of
> your racist party? Are you too low to admit your bias?
I have no bias when I report. I am a jist, therefore, when I report I am
apolitical. If you think my reporting skills "leave a little to be
desired" then why don't you try reporting, if not, shut up.
> Your crappy Charlatan articles are getting a bit tiring too, but we live
> in a free country my friend.
Why are they crappy Ian? Do they tell the truth, something that you are
afraid to see?
> Oddly enough, I am involved with my riding, along with the other thousand
> plus Reformers. I wonder how many NDPers there are in Ottawa-West Nepean...
> 20?
Where's Nepean?
> BTW, Daniel, you seem to avoid the issue I have been trying to address.
> Are you going to paint over the picture of that racist bigot Tommy Douglas?
I am not going to paint over the picture of Tommy Douglas, why should I?
If you have a problem with then maybe you should do somethint about it.
I think you are the only intolerant person around Ian.
In solidarity
Dan
Ian J. Mckenna
Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
>> I don't know. You were there. I wasn't.
>
> Too embarrassed? I would be.
Not as embarassed as I would be if I were you, crappy reporter!
>> Did I ever say I wanted to be a reporter? And as for your
>> reporting skills - they leave a little to be desired. Why do you hide
>> your political affiliation in your Charlatan reports? Are you ashamed of
>> your racist party? Are you too low to admit your bias?
>
> I have no bias when I report.
Sure you do fool.
I am a jist, therefore, when I report I am
> apolitical.
No, when you report, you report your twisted view on things - and you hide
your affiliation. You are 100% political.
If you think my reporting skills "leave a little to be
> desired" then why don't you try reporting, if not, shut up.
I still think your reporting skills are poor, and I won't try reporting,
sorry.
>> Your crappy Charlatan articles are getting a bit tiring too, but we live
>> in a free country my friend.
>
> Why are they crappy Ian? Do they tell the truth, something that you are
> afraid to see?
Are you afraid of criticism my friend? I didn't call you a liar, just a
crappy reporter. You may or may not be telling the truth. What you do
report is your twisted version of things in a very choppy manner. I doubt
you will make it as a reporter in the real world.
>> Oddly enough, I am involved with my riding, along with the other thousand
>> plus Reformers. I wonder how many NDPers there are in Ottawa-West Nepean...
>> 20?
>
> Where's Nepean?
Ignorance I would expect from a NDP member.
>> BTW, Daniel, you seem to avoid the issue I have been trying to address.
>> Are you going to paint over the picture of that racist bigot Tommy Douglas?
>
> I am not going to paint over the picture of Tommy Douglas, why should I?
Because if you hated racism like I do, you would take offence to his ugly
mug.
> If you have a problem with then maybe you should do somethint about it.
I am doing my bit. However, that block of space is the NDP club's space.
It is up to the 2 members of the NDP club to practice what they preach and
to take down their monument to racism.
> I think you are the only intolerant person around Ian.
Ouch. Obviously you don't know me. Anyhow, you are still a crappy
reporter. And a hypocrite on top of that.
Ian J. Mckenna
Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) writes:
> Ian J. Mckenna wrote:
>> > Dan's a supporter of the federal NDP, is he not?
>> He's a Charlatan reporter too, and an Amway salesman, is he not?
>
> Ian you have to learn to check your facts. I am a Charlatan reporter.
> Yes, you have me on that point. You know where my leanings are, and they
> aren't with the openly racist Reform Party.
No, instead you are with the openly racist NDP party. Are you proud of
Tommy Douglas? Are you proud of J.S.Woodsworth? Obviously yes.
Shame on you.
Tell me Ian if the Party
> wasn't an extremist party, why would they dedicate over three hours of a
> YOUTH convention to learning how to deal with reporters and not come
> across as extremist.
I don't know. You were there. I wasn't.
Everytime your leader opens his mouth he has to
> bash the media in some way or another. Just like the entire party, he
> has no class.
Oh, sorry. I guess I hit a sore spot attacking the reverend grand wizard
NDP founder Tommy Douglas. I won't let it happen again <SARC>
> There is no way you could ever be a reporter Ian you just don't check
> the facts oh and . . .
Did I ever say I wanted to be a reporter? As for the facts...Tommy
Douglas is an intolerant racist, his M.A. Thesis says so. And as for your
reporting skills - they leave a little to be desired. Why do you hide
your political affiliation in your Charlatan reports? Are you ashamed of
your racist party? Are you too low to admit your bias?
well I think you have an idea what goes in the
> blank.
No, tell me.
Ian I am going to be nice when I say this, your endless rhetoric
> is getting a bit tiring,
Your crappy Charlatan articles are getting a bit tiring too, but we live
in a free country my friend.
maybe you should go and help out your riding,
> they are going to need all the help they can get. Otherwords, you have
> way too much free time on your hands.
Oddly enough, I am involved with my riding, along with the other thousand
plus Reformers. I wonder how many NDPers there are in Ottawa-West Nepean...
20?
BTW, Daniel, you seem to avoid the issue I have been trying to address.
Chris Belway
Daniel McHardie (dmch...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
> Ian J. Mckenna wrote:
> > > Dan's a supporter of the federal NDP, is he not?
> > He's a Charlatan reporter too, and an Amway salesman, is he not?
> Ian you have to learn to check your facts. I am a Charlatan reporter.
> Yes, you have me on that point. You know where my leanings are, and they
I wasn't talking about you-you are showing an incredibly short attention
span-a characteristic quite common among NDP supporters.
C.