CTC Application Re-applying

[John Royle]

FYI:

I applied last year for my CTC, and my application was deferred.  Since then, I have taken a new job as a program manager and done what I can to address the comments in my deferral short of spending $$$ on formal training, which is financially out of reach. 

I would like to hear from others who have had similar experiences and have been approved for the CTC without formal training.   At the heart of my question is what skills, knowledge, or experience did you obtain to overcome this lack of formal training?

Thanks in advance for all that reply, and I appreciate any insights you can share ")

John Royle

Agilist, Coach, and Life long learner

[尤尼斯]

Dear John
Personal Insight:
1) Project managers cannot bring direct benefits and utility to CTC/CEC. This is a completely different career path.
2) If you plan to stick to the CTC/CEC road, please stay away from PMI's project system. On the contrary, you can continue PMI's DAC/DAVSC, but unfortunately, the Agile development strategy since PMI acquired DAD is not clear. PMI The ACP has never seen growth (PM has been relying on the cash cow of PMP to survive)
3) From a development perspective, CTCs/CECs have more prospects and expectations than project managers on their future career paths.

UL/China

[尤尼斯]

exception
Please correct the thinking. It is not that if we have CTC/CEC, you can be well employed and find a good high-paying job, but that our cognition, realm, ability, and skills in areas such as agile have reached the CTC/CEC level and depth before applying,
CTC/CEC is not the original intention and purpose of finding a job, it is one of the paths for our self-improvement and growth.
So I haven't applied yet because I don't think I'm ready enough.

[Dhaval Panchal]

UT - there is a saying attributed to Wayne Gretzky (legendary Ice hockey player) 

“you miss a 100% of shots you don’t take”

There is lifetime left to journey on the path of self-improvement and growth. One does not need CEC/CTC for that. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 29, 2024, at 9:28 PM, 尤尼斯 <unixli...@gmail.com> wrote:

exception

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[Dhaval Panchal]

Many CEC’s and CTC’sare also members of PMI and competent PMs.

Agile works for Projects as well as products.

D

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 29, 2024, at 9:21 PM, 尤尼斯 <unixli...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear John

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[John Royle]

UL/China,

Thank you for your insights and your post. I also agree that there are better choices than a program manager path for a CTC coaching career, and I hope to find more direct opportunities for coaching down the road.   Ironically, I am finding ways to apply my coaching background and skills within my current role by helping support program transformational activities thru coaching and engaging with other Agilists within the program to move things forward. 

John Royle

9425 Caddyshack Circle

St. Louis, MO, 63127

314.660.6582

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[gene gendel]

One of the challenges that I have observed over years, with internal employees (even the best ones are facing these issues), is that they have to map their existing role to a role that has no recognition in the HR database.  

And this is where real challenges begin: a person needs to walk the line between doing the job they get upraised and compensated for (e.g. program manager) and playing the role that they really like to play.

 And this is why we see some of the below and more...

/sent from hand-held. forgive brevity and omissions/

_______________________________________________________                     

Gene Gendel (LinkedIn)

KSTS Consulting, Inc | www.keystepstosuccess.com | 747.200.7979

Certified Enterprise & Team Coach (CEC-CTC)

Certified LeSS Coach & Trainer (CLC-CLT)

LeSS Coaching & Training Schedule ←!

_______________________________________________________   

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[John Royle]

For the most part, I understand what you are sharing.   

However, I believe strongly that there is a difference between role and title.   If these mean the same thing, then your perspective makes excellent sense.   In my specific situation, however, these are different.  

I was hired as a program manager (title) to accomplish two very different (roles) The first was to coach leadership and internal teams as they struggled to transform into an Agile mindset and processes. The second was to provide leadership and support for those teams within the program.   

This job opportunity provides me with a way to support both bottom-up (coaching) transformational aspirations and top-down (leadership) by helping establish program culture and norms to support transformational activities.  This mix of responsibilities leverages my various skills but does not change my overall goal to work in a more 100% focused coaching role.  🙂

John Royle

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[gene gendel]

We can put HR naming convention and nomenclature out of the scope for now (most typically, it is banged out of shape and needs a major repair :), just like for most companies).  

So, may I ask you the following:

• Did you feel that your leadership (or highly paid management? - those are not the same people) was coacable?  Did they express their willingness and decide, as in 'hey, I would like to be coached John, can you help me?'
• Did you personally feel comfortable trying to influence those highly paid managers, by taking them out of their own comfort zone, while knowing that they are in control of your own performance, promotion and compensation?
• How were you trying to change someone's mindset without changing the organizational structure they are in (e.g. reporting, layers of management, etc)? Or were you ready, willing and comfortable to challenge org design, as the first order factor that defines org dynamics?
• Was the term 'program' described as something meaningful, customer-focused, biz value-centric? Or was it more of a lump-sum of all underlying projects being funded through the program?

Hopefully, the above questions help thinking about this a bit deeper and more genuinely.

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[John Royle]

gg,

You may ask me anything you wish, and I appreciate the dialog and any insights you have to share.  In answer to your questions.....  

• Did you feel that your leadership (or highly paid management? - those are not the same people) was coacable?  Did they express their willingness and decide, as in 'hey, I would like to be coached John, can you help me?'

From the leadership side of things....they were encouraged to seek coaching from me, but it was optional.  One of those I coached was there only because they were encouraged and did not see the value in it, and as a result, we both agreed to walk away and that I would be happy to support her goals if and when she thinks there is value in that discussion.

The other two execs I worked with were eager to share their insights and challenges and are working with me to support their organization's growth as it transforms from a command and control structure to a more Agile process.

 

• Did you personally feel comfortable trying to influence those highly paid managers, by taking them out of their own comfort zone, while knowing that they are in control of your own performance, promotion and compensation?

The short answer is yes, I am completely comfortable coaching these leaders.  I have never had a problem speaking truth to power.   If they are not comfortable obtaining insights and working through the processes with me, that has always been their choice.    

• How were you trying to change someone's mindset without changing the organizational structure they are in (e.g. reporting, layers of management, etc)? Or were you ready, willing and comfortable to challenge org design, as the first order factor that defines org dynamics?

Great question... and you will agree that every environment is different.  In my specific situation, they had already made the commitment to make changes in the company structure and culture to embrace a more agile mindset but were struggling with pushback mostly from mid-level and team-level leaders.   My coaching with the teams has been a mix of coaching and mentoring to address their concerns and share insights to help them put the transformation in the right context.   In the case of the mid-level managers, the general theme I have been hearing is their concern about the loss of control over their teams.   My approach for them is to guide them to look for outcomes more than output from their groups.  

• Was the term 'program' described as something meaningful, customer-focused, biz value-centric? Or was it more of a lump-sum of all underlying projects being funded through the program?

My official title is "Executive Program Manager," but my role under this title is to help support transformational activities within the program and foster cultural change to a more agile mindset.   There are 2 separate programs, each with approx 10 projects that are used by different end-user groups.  My role is to work with these groups, internal and external, and help them continue to evolve their agile understanding.

John Royle

[gene gendel]

My questions are based on my personal cognitive bias, and your answers help me challenge my bias :)

My biases are as follows:
>>>>Very few highly paid managers are true leaders. If 'highly paid manager' does not sound too appealing, perhaps the term 'sr. executive' is softer. The key difference, at least, to me is this.

In my experience, organizational hierarchy (pay level) has a very strong influence on a coaching-up capability of a coach, from within the same organization.  Often, higher positioned people automatically assume that they are more advanced/educated/sophisticated than lower positioned people, and therefore do not need to be coached (so, delegate downward). Btw, this is one of the reasons why executive coaching, when done by external people, is better perceived: coaches are not a part of the same org hierarchy.

>>>>  Although every  environment is different, they are also, oh well, very much the same, when it comes to hierarchies, local optimization and mid-level management factors (frozen middle). In my experience, when trying to apply 'let's change our mindset and culture' coaching to traditional org structures, such as projects, programs, portfolios at large, without, fundamentally changing reporting charts, spheres of influence, HR norms and policies, career path, budgeting - first, is pretty ineffective: organizational antibodies are just too strong and will resist any good changes.

>>>>  Most (if not all) large 'transformational activities' that involve thousands of people and millions of dollars (a.k.a. expensive, broad & shallow) reverse back to where they started. This includes traditional projects, programs and org structures that they are aligned to.

It would be much longer-lasting and fruitful, to apply transformations to smaller pockets of least resistance, going deep & narrow, with system changes.  However, system optimizing goals should be well defined prior to making any such decisions.  

Some visual reference for this.

End of my short cognitive bias list :).

Thanks.

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[John Royle]

Thank you for sharing your valuable insights and experiences regarding transformational initiatives. Your perspective offers a clear understanding of the complexities involved in large-scale organizational changes.

Indeed, it's often observed that executive leaders might prefer external coaching to internal guidance, especially during significant shifts. The inherent cultural resistance within an organization can indeed pose substantial challenges to transformative efforts.

To navigate such challenges effectively, it's imperative to have robust support from senior leadership coupled with a genuine readiness for change at all levels. Without upper management's backing, any localized success in transformation might be fleeting, undermined by prevailing cultural inertia and a lack of transformative leadership.

Similarly, if the leadership is committed to fostering transformational change but encounters resistance from mid-level management or teams wary of losing control in a more autonomous agile environment, the initiative may face repeated setbacks. This cycle might continue until the leadership retreats in response to mounting failures.

In my opinion, the most successful transformational strategy is one where the leadership not only recognizes the need for change but is also committed to supporting it. This environment should encourage teams to embrace transformation with the right guidance, allowing for nuanced adjustments that facilitate collaboration across various frameworks to achieve common objectives.

It should be noted that in my specific situation, I have a much smaller group to influence, and there is support at all levels, making my coaching efforts much less complex. :)   AS I said before every situation is different.  :) 

John Royle

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[gene gendel]

Thank you for sharing your experience John.

I wish you luck with the process.

Gene

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[John Royle]

Gene,

Thanks for the dialog and the encouragement.  :)

I am reminded that the journey and not the destination matters.

Should I eventually obtain my CTC/CEC, it will only reflect a milestone on that journey and not the end of it :)

John Royle

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[gene gendel]

Good luck on your journey John!

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