Traditional Scouts deemed non-scouts by Scouts Canada
Pat Conlin
In a letter to its' members, Scouts Canada has deemed that any Association
not belonging to WOSM should not be considered scouts and as such are not to
be considered brothers. I'd like to turn the other cheek here and say that
all Scouts, regardless of Association or World membership who follow the
principles of scouting are welcome at our campfires and are considered
brothers and sisters by us.
The pressure from Scouts Canada through their solicitors and Industry Canada
may have forced our Assocation to give up titles and our proper world name
but we know what makes a true scout, and we will continue to follow the
scout promise and law in the traditional form regardless of our forced name
changes. Once a scout...always a scout!
Thanks to all those who've welcomed us to Canada.
Your Brother in Scouting
Patrick Conlin CD.,
National Commissioner
BPSA CANADA
red...@v-wave.com
http://www.bpscouts.ca
"A member Association of the World Federation of Independent Scouts"
Chris Wilkinson
I don't want to tread into the difficult waters of the relationships
between your organisation and Scouts Canada or for that matter between
the BP Scouts Association and the UK Scout Association, but it does seem
unfortunate to me that these arguments and disagreements perpetuate
themselves in the minds and practice of adults.
Be assured that at the level which matters, that of the young people,
they are just Scouts.
Is it possible that with prayer and understanding the differences which
divide the peoples of the world will whither into insignificance and
that we adults can regard those outside the WOSM Club as brothers and
sisters just as in the UK we now regard Germans as fellow Europeans?
When I was a Scout I was taught that THEY were evil people.
I hope that some Scouts Canada young people will enjoy your campfires
just as I have sat round camp fires of other organisations who might or
not be regarded as members of the Club.
CHRIS
In article <8ak2la$j6k$1...@burn.ab.videon.ca>, Pat Conlin <redcoat@v-
wave.com> writes
--
Chris Wilkinson
Jean Pascal "Cyrano" Leblanc
It is a shame that scouts Canada has this point of view. In "Association
des scouts du Canada", the french catholic scouting association of Canada,
Never any scout or scouter regards other "neckerchief bearer" who respect
the scout law as other as scout.
More than that, we feel that this kind of message sent by Scout Canda
isn't scout. After all, BP was wanting the scouting association to be a
world organisation of brothers, not a bureaucratic virtual state who difine
their citizenship by a yearly contribution.
A scout is utile, loyal honest and frendly, not greedy and brothers with
others that ONLY have his point of view.
The creation of BP scouts as an independant scouting part of WOSM was,
after all, only a difference of point of view, since both have the same
objective: to make responsible and usefull citizens out of children.
Jean Pascal Leblanc
Alouette Généreuse
St-Pierre/St-Bernard Pack
District st-Maurice
Association des scouts du Canada
Member of WOSM
Pat Conlin a écrit dans le message <8ak2la$j6k$1...@burn.ab.videon.ca>...
gerald diamond
had time to
really evaluate their program properly; and putting aside my feelings for
the degree of
bureacracy that may have crept into headquarters, I wish to make a couple
of remarks.
I think what has happened while a bit sad is perhaps inevitable.
Scouts Canada has an obligation to protect the name of scouting and the
use of this description. Failure to do so could easily lead to groups
springing up
using the description "scout" who purposes or intents might be a far cry
from the
current perception of the real meaning of scouting.
If I ran an organization and another group decided to use the same
description
and call my organization into question in some manner, I might react (among
other ways)
by trying to deny them the use of what I consider to be the name or
description of
my organization. Rightly or wrongly, this is human nature and one can be
surprised at this.
So I am not surprised that the universe has unfolded this way. Nor in one
sense am I
entirely disappointed. That a second organiztion had to come into existance
to deal
with the "failings" of our organization, if that is what they are, is
unfortunate. I would hope
that there is room for enough local autonomy to ensure local needs of Youth
are being
met without need for rival organizations wasting valuable resources and
energy bickering over things like the use of a name.
I hope instead we can get back to our real mission of providing for the
needs of the Youth
and move past this issue now that it has gone through the courts.
gerald diamond
(Hathi)
54th London
Graham Holland
Dear Pat,
I am sorry to read that Scouts Canada feels that it has to make such a
statement. Even though the B-PSA here in the UK is not recognised as
"official" Scouting the SA has never gone as far as to state that they
are not Scouts. I would like to think that all Scouters and Scouts
around the world would be able to see further than an unfortunate
political statement and to embrace all Scouts, whatever organisation
they belong to, so long as they follow the basics of Scouting as laid
down in the Scout Law and Promise, whichever version is used.
It is only be education can we hope to change attitudes of those who
would spread such bad spirit.
"A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout, no
matter to which country class or creed the other may belong.!
Yours in International Scouting and friendship,
Graham
--
GRAHAM HOLLAND <za...@enterprise.net> Liverpool, England
uk.rec.scouting FAQ http://www.scoutnet.org.uk/uk_rec.htm
Did you know...? (#26) The Liverpool Playhouse Theatre
...hosted Noel Coward's stage debut.
Greg Poile
Diamond's comments.
1) Baden-Powell invented what he referred to as 'the GAME of Scouting'. He
published a series of newspaper articles about a new idea which later lead to a
book on the subject. Then, Scout groups sprang into existence all over the
commonwealth, virtually spontaneously and without leadership and DEFINITELY
without Charters or any recognition of who WAS or WASN'T a Scout or who could
use the name 'Scout'.
B-P himself was shocked by how fast Scouting grew, but was pleased that so many
had embraced his GAME.
2) According to my friend Florian Hulpke, a German Scout I befriended in Chile
at the last World Jamboree, there are over 80 different Scouting organizations
in Germany all co-existing and none denying the others the right to use the name
'Scout'.
3) Scouts Canada is NOT the only Scouting organization in Canada; I believe
there are at least 5 others. (ASC being a prime example). Why are they singling
out the BPSAC for this vigorous and UNSCOUTLIKE attack....... it goes directly
against the philosophy that Baden-Powell prescribed. I have no doubt that he
would be sorely disappointed in this action and sentiment of ownership over a
term (Scout) that they did not invent. DEFINITELY bad gamesmanship and marks my
Scouts Canada as poor sports. For shame!
I, for one, applaud the BPSAC's efforts and welcome them to the Canadian
BROTHERHOOD of Scouting.
Greg Poile
Liam Morland
<gpo...@telusplanet.net> wrote: [...]
>3) Scouts Canada is NOT the only Scouting organization in Canada; I
>believe there are at least 5 others. (ASC being a prime example).
>Why are they singling out the BPSAC for this vigorous and
>UNSCOUTLIKE attack....... it goes directly against the philosophy
>that Baden-Powell prescribed. I have no doubt that he would be
>sorely disappointed in this action and sentiment of ownership over a
>term (Scout) that they did not invent. DEFINITELY bad gamesmanship
>and marks my Scouts Canada as poor sports. For shame!
A directory of Canaddian Scout associations which lists twelve
associations:
<http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/lkmorlan/ScoutDocs/
0030-Scouting_Associations.html>
>I, for one, applaud the BPSAC's efforts and welcome them to the
>Canadian BROTHERHOOD of Scouting.
I want to second this motion. As we grow, we diversify. As Scouts, it
is our responsibility to respect all others and not build walls
because of differences.
YIS
Liam
--
Liam Morland <lkmo...@uwaterloo.ca> Scouting is
<http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/lkmorlan/> EDUCATION FOR LIFE!
Daniel Comeau
DRC
1st Lancaster
"Liam Morland" <lkmo...@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:lkmorland-3CCB1...@news.uwaterloo.ca...
gerald diamond
Greg Poile <gpo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:38DB9A8D...@telusplanet.net...
> I could not be more disppointed in either Scouts Canada's action or Gerald
> Diamond's comments.
tjat is the importance of these forums
> 1) Baden-Powell invented what he referred to as 'the GAME of Scouting'. He
> published a series of newspaper articles about a new idea which later lead
to a
> book on the subject. Then, Scout groups sprang into existence all over the
> commonwealth, virtually spontaneously and without leadership and
DEFINITELY
> without Charters or any recognition of who WAS or WASN'T a Scout or who
could
> use the name 'Scout'.
Times have changed. The success of the idea of scouting has lead to a
definite idea in the
public eye of what a Scout. is
In Canada this has lead to Scouts Canada being associated with everything
with
that name on it.
So
Headquarters (I assume) have decideed to protect the name to ensure that
groups that may wish to exploit children or just use the name Scouts to make
money cannot easily do so. And my further limited understanding is that
you cannot do this in a hit and miss manner and expect to have any luck
exercising your rights through the courts.
>
> 2) According to my friend Florian Hulpke, a German Scout I befriended in
Chile
> at the last World Jamboree, there are over 80 different Scouting
organizations
> in Germany all co-existing and none denying the others the right to use
the name
> 'Scout'.
Most countries have a national scouting organization. Are you saying
your friend said that some countries have more than one?
> 3) Scouts Canada is NOT the only Scouting organization in Canada; I
believe
> there are at least 5 others. (ASC being a prime example). Why are they
singling
> out the BPSAC for this vigorous and UNSCOUTLIKE attack....... i
Here I think you have the shoe on the wrong foot. The first attacks I saw
were
from BP... at Scouts Canada
> against the philosophy that Baden-Powell prescribed. I have no doubt that
he
Which philosophy in particular?
> would be sorely disappointed in this action and sentiment of ownership
over a
> term (Scout) that they did not invent. DEFINITELY bad gamesmanship and
marks my
> Scouts Canada as poor sports. For shame!
I disagree here. He was interested in the welfare of the youth. If he felt
that this move was
in their best interest ( and please note I have not said that it is ) then I
believe he would
be in (perhaps reluctant) favour of it.
Liam Morland
<diam...@ene.gov.on.ca> wrote: [...]
>Times have changed. The success of the idea of scouting has lead
>to a definite idea in the public eye of what a Scout is.
>
>In Canada this has lead to Scouts Canada being associated with
>everything with that name on it.
>
>So
>
>Headquarters (I assume) have decideed to protect the name to ensure
>that groups that may wish to exploit children or just use the name
>Scouts to make money cannot easily do so. And my further limited
>understanding is that you cannot do this in a hit and miss manner
>and expect to have any luck exercising your rights through the
>courts. [...]
Indeed. Trademark protection must be consistent. Scouts Canada already
has agreements with Scout associations such as the Salvation Army
Scout Association and the ASC. Trademark protection could have been
achieved by an agreement between the BP Scouts and Scouts Canada. The
BP Scouts began friendly communication with Scouts Canada and recieved
a reply only via the lawyers.
>Most countries have a national scouting organization. Are you saying
>your friend said that some countries have more than one? [...]
The World Organization of the Scout Movement will recognize a single
Scout association in a country. Over 1/8 of WOSM member associations
are federations of several Scout associations. Many countries also
have other Scout associations which are not affiliated with the WOSM.
(My criteria for what is a Scout association is taken from the chapter
one of the constitution of the WOSM.)
Shayna Lowney
and on the train with the rest of us that beleive that every 'scout' of any
orgnization should be reconizied as a fellow brother.
Shayna Lowney
5th North Bay Venturers
Secretary
Chris Wilkinson <ch...@scout.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7KW6PJA0...@scout.demon.co.uk...
> Pat
>
> I don't want to tread into the difficult waters of the relationships
> between your organisation and Scouts Canada or for that matter between
> the BP Scouts Association and the UK Scout Association, but it does seem
> unfortunate to me that these arguments and disagreements perpetuate
> themselves in the minds and practice of adults.
>
> Be assured that at the level which matters, that of the young people,
> they are just Scouts.
>
> Is it possible that with prayer and understanding the differences which
> divide the peoples of the world will whither into insignificance and
> that we adults can regard those outside the WOSM Club as brothers and
> sisters just as in the UK we now regard Germans as fellow Europeans?
> When I was a Scout I was taught that THEY were evil people.
>
> I hope that some Scouts Canada young people will enjoy your campfires
> just as I have sat round camp fires of other organisations who might or
> not be regarded as members of the Club.
>
> CHRIS
>
> In article <8ak2la$j6k$1...@burn.ab.videon.ca>, Pat Conlin <redcoat@v-
> wave.com> writes
> --
> Chris Wilkinson
Chris Powell
Traditional Scouting and also the stance taken by individual Districts and
Regions within Scouts Canada towards B-PSA, I would have to say that my time
with B-PSA was not only an excersize in futility but even more frustrating
than my time with Scouts Canada.
Because of this I still monitor both the B-PSA site (and provincial sites)
as well as many Scouts Canada sites to just keep abreast of what are by my
standards the fundamental problems with Scouting in Canada.
I will not get into what those problems are in this I just want to say that
while the principle of B-PSA is sound, the method of dealing with the
onslaught of criticism has allways left me wanting to see more action from
B-PSA. Scouts Canada has used threats and strong arm tactics to get what
they want but through a theory of turn the other cheek, the stresses of the
onslaught have lead to a paranoia that led to my resignation from B-PSA some
two months ago.
There is now three youths, two leaders, 3 service clubs and 2 charities that
now have no way of commiting to the community service that was promised
during this year. All because of the paranoia that lead to the demise of
the organization as a national "group" and created provincial "power
centers" with megalomaniacs in charge (please note I refer to only one
province at this time but I have heard rumblings about other provinces
having similar problems).
Kelly Brown
I've never had a provincial power center before and have NEVER been called a
megalomaniac. To be quite honest, I have know idea what it means. I'm
running for the dictionary once I'm done here.
Seriously though, as BPSA Canada's Nova Scotia Commissioner I have to put
my two cents in.
I realize that Chris is speaking mainly of his experience in his home
province, but he paints a very bad picture of the organization here in Nova
Scotia. BPSAC Nova Scotia is nothing like he portrays.
We have 7 sections whose only focus is the running of an active, outdoor,
Scouting program. Our leaders continually express support for the provincial
council's efforts as they are involved in all decision making. The Provicial
Council in turn supports the intentions of the leaders. In fact, the only
criticism I've recieved has been from Scouters of the other 2 organizations
(Scouts Canada and CISA).
Chris may have had a bad experience with his council, but that by no means
should reflect the organization that we have built here.
Check out our site: http://bpsacns.8m.com (just don't send a letter
complaining about the youth rep- it's driving me nuts).
Keep Scouting,
Jon
Chris Powell wrote in message
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