Nazi Alert!
mebesius
there is someone or some idiot claiming to have found or stumbled upon a
Nazi. Racists? Yes. Rednecks? Ya. Right-wing lunatics? You bet.
But Nazis? I'm not sure. There are white supremacists, white
separatists, and white nationalists, but not too many card-carrying
Nazis. I wonder if Jews like the term being used so loosely. I doubt
it. Soon everyone becomes a Nazi, whether it is a soup-Nazi or a
femi-Nazi. I think most people wouldn't know a true Nazi even if he
goose-stepped on their head.
Erik
mebesius wrote:
Nazis were those people running Germany from the early '30's til
1945-ish. Most
folks would agree with that. As this is usenet, I know some wouldn't.
It's probably the wrong term to use to describe anything else. Even if
I believe that governments in various parts of the world are, or have
been, much like the government of The 'Dolph earlier in the century, I
guess I shouldn't use the term 'Nazi', as they are not actually
connected to that party. Similarly, the term 'Fascist' is also
questionable.
Another term 'Socialist', doesn't have the same problem attached to it.
Must be the most heavily used argumentative term in usenet. At least
that one's open for biz.
So, I solemnly pledge not to use the term 'Nazi' to describe any regime
I don't like, whether it be in Canada, Isnotreal, Sudan, Iran, or
McCommunist China.
Maybe we need a new generic term to describe countries or beliefs that
don't respect in some form or another 'The Golden Rule'. Maybe we can
just be more creative.
BTW the Nazis _Definitely Were Socialist_
E.Schild
sa...@myhouse.nowdammit
Glen Hallick
> Nazis, they're everywhere! In almost every newsgroup and every thread,
> there is someone or some idiot claiming to have found or stumbled upon a
> Nazi. Racists? Yes. Rednecks? Ya. Right-wing lunatics? You bet.
> But Nazis? I'm not sure. There are white supremacists, white
> separatists, and white nationalists, but not too many card-carrying
> Nazis. I wonder if Jews like the term being used so loosely. I doubt
> it. Soon everyone becomes a Nazi, whether it is a soup-Nazi or a
> femi-Nazi. I think most people wouldn't know a true Nazi even if he
> goose-stepped on their head.
You have a problem with some people being labelled as Nazies?
Take a look through the posts in this newsgroup. I think you will find it
just as common that some people accuse anything remotely associated with the
Left as being Communist.
There is definately a double standard.
Glen
Glen Hallick
snip.
>
> BTW the Nazis _Definitely Were Socialist_
Just how where the Nazis socialists? As you making the claim simply because
the word socialist was part of the Nazi's formal name? Or are you making the
claim as a revisionist looking to change historical fact into a whopper of a
lie?
Keep in mind that the Nazies existed before Hitler joined them. He was
ordered by the German Army to investigate the political acitivities of
various political parties in Germany after WW1, one of them being the Nazis.
What he found was not much of a political party but rather a beer swilling
together where the members regurgiated the political rambling cliches of the
day.
Glen
James Goneaux
<cana...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Nazis, they're everywhere! In almost every newsgroup and every thread,
>there is someone or some idiot claiming to have found or stumbled upon a
>Nazi. Racists? Yes. Rednecks? Ya. Right-wing lunatics? You bet.
>But Nazis? I'm not sure. There are white supremacists, white
>separatists, and white nationalists, but not too many card-carrying
>Nazis.
Which is why I use the term nazi, without the capital. The word Nazi,
it is true, designates someone who belongs (i.e., has signed a party
card) to a Nazi party. You would be correct to say that there are
probably none in Canada, and damn few in the States. Even white
supremacist skinheads (or neo-nazis) probably aren't members of any
Nazi party.
But if it whines like a Nazi, goose-steps like a Nazi, and bombs
Turkish refugees like a Nazi, its a nazi.
'k?
Stephen Kawamoto
It doesn't matter how smart a person is, the promotion of violence against minorities
only shows how much that intellectual potential is wasted.
---
Opera 3.5
XXX
>
>mebesius wrote:
>
>>Nazis, they're everywhere! In almost every newsgroup and every thread,
>>there is someone or some idiot claiming to have found or stumbled upon
>a
>>Nazi. Racists? Yes. Rednecks? Ya. Right-wing lunatics? You bet.
>>But Nazis? I'm not sure. There are white supremacists, white
>>separatists, and white nationalists, but not too many card-carrying
>>Nazis. I wonder if Jews like the term being used so loosely. I doubt
>>it. Soon everyone becomes a Nazi, whether it is a soup-Nazi or a
>>femi-Nazi. I think most people wouldn't know a true Nazi even if he
>>goose-stepped on their head.
>
>Nazis were those people running Germany from the early '30's til
>1945-ish. Most
>folks would agree with that. As this is usenet, I know some wouldn't.
>
>It's probably the wrong term to use to describe anything else. Even if
>I believe that governments in various parts of the world are, or have
>been, much like the government of The 'Dolph earlier in the century, I
>guess I shouldn't use the term 'Nazi', as they are not actually
>connected to that party. Similarly, the term 'Fascist' is also
>questionable.
>
>Another term 'Socialist', doesn't have the same problem attached to it.
>Must be the most heavily used argumentative term in usenet. At least
>that one's open for biz.
>
>So, I solemnly pledge not to use the term 'Nazi' to describe any regime
>I don't like, whether it be in Canada, Isnotreal, Sudan, Iran, or
>McCommunist China.
>
>Maybe we need a new generic term to describe countries or beliefs that
>don't respect in some form or another 'The Golden Rule'. Maybe we can
>just be more creative.
>
>BTW the Nazis _Definitely Were Socialist_
No they weren't... but you are definitely an idiot.
>E.Schild
>sa...@myhouse.nowdammit
>
>
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Derek Nalecki
>On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:29:06 -0800, mebesius
>
>>Nazis, they're everywhere! In almost every newsgroup and every thread,
>>there is someone or some idiot claiming to have found or stumbled upon a
>>Nazi. Racists? Yes. Rednecks? Ya. Right-wing lunatics? You bet.
>>But Nazis? I'm not sure. There are white supremacists, white
>>separatists, and white nationalists, but not too many card-carrying
>>Nazis.
>
>it is true, designates someone who belongs (i.e., has signed a party
>card) to a Nazi party. You would be correct to say that there are
>probably none in Canada, and damn few in the States. Even white
>supremacist skinheads (or neo-nazis) probably aren't members of any
>Nazi party.
>
>But if it whines like a Nazi, goose-steps like a Nazi, and bombs
>Turkish refugees like a Nazi, its a nazi.
>
Agreed, there needs to be a clear distinction between capital "N" Nazi -
member of the Nasionalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeitspartei - which since the
party no longer exists are precious few, and lower case "n" nazi which would
designate an advocate or a follower of nationalist, socialist, laborite
politics - complete with authoritarian social order, nationalist-etatist
economics and laborite, projectionist, anti-immigrant, banker and
"speculator"-bashing ideas.
Much, of course, like there is a distinction between a "C" conservative -
member of a Conservative Party in UK or Canada, and "c" conservative - someone
who follows conservative politics. Or a distinction between "L" libertarian -
m ember of a Libertarian Party and "l" libertarian - someone who believes in
libertarian ideals.
derek n, RdNck, Pen-Arm of the Righteous, esq.
"To be truly selfish one needs a degree of self-esteem. The self-despisers are
less intent on their own increase than on the diminution of others.
Where self-esteem is unattainable, envy takes the place of greed."
(Eric Hoffer)
********** THE ONLY GOOD ENVIRONMENT IS A MAN-MADE ENVIRONMENT ***********
nale...@my-dejanews.com
<ghal...@gatewest.net> wrote:
>Erik wrote:
>
>snip.
>
>>
>> BTW the Nazis _Definitely Were Socialist_
>
>the word socialist was part of the Nazi's formal name? Or are you making the
>claim as a revisionist looking to change historical fact into a whopper of a
>lie?
>
>Keep in mind that the Nazies existed before Hitler joined them. He was
>ordered by the German Army to investigate the political acitivities of
>various political parties in Germany after WW1, one of them being the Nazis.
>What he found was not much of a political party but rather a beer swilling
>together where the members regurgiated the political rambling cliches of the
>day.
>
As always you have absolutely no clue, what are you talking about. What
existed before Hitler was not a Nazi (nationalist-socialist) party, but
something called German Workers Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei), a vaguely
leftist gripe club of disaffected workers which was founded on January 1919
by Anton Drexler and Karl Harrer. Hitler was indeed ordered by his army
superiors to spy on the party; but after joining it - still on orders, he
realized that here was a possible vehicle for his growing political
ambitions. However the party had no coherent program, beyond vague opposition
to "capitalism". Hitler soon took over as a leader of the party and begun
working on a comprehensive political program. In their economic and social
program the party's official position was to create a 'third way' between
marxism and capitalism, but that soon proved to be only claim, as Hitler
adopted the policies of anti-laissez-faire, anti-capitalist economists such
as Adam Heinrich Muller, Willhelm Rosher, Friedrich List, Georg Friedrich
Knapp, Gustav Schmoller and Adolf Wagner. They were the students of what is
known as the nationalist-etatist economic school, and among the ideas they
contributed to the nazi ideology were state socialism, economic autarky ("a
condition of economic self-sufficiency constructed on a network of production
and exchange entirely encompassed within an integrated geographic area under
a single overall authority") and Lebensraum. Lebensraum originally started
not as an expansionist doctrine, but a s a policy of forced resettlement
within the borders of Germany, for example to "populate" East Prussia with
German small farmers, who would provide counterbalance to the growing
influence of Polish agricultural laborers employed by the Junkers. This match
of 'good of the community' social order, nationalist-etatist ideas, further
strengthened by influence of Keynesianism - particularly the laborite ideas
of cheap monetary policy and public works programs to produce "full"
employment, created an offshoot of doctrinaire socialism, which included a
large dose of nationalism and big labour (laborite) policies - hence national
socialism is said to be nationalist, socialist, laborite. Hitler produced a
comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the famous 25
Points; and at the same time changed the name of the party to reflect its new
politics to National Socialist German Party of the Labour
(Nasionalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeitspartei).
derek n, RdNck, Pen-Arm of the Righteous, esq.
"To be truly selfish one needs a degree of self-esteem. The self-despisers are
less intent on their own increase than on the diminution of others.
Where self-esteem is unattainable, envy takes the place of greed."
(Eric Hoffer)
********** THE ONLY GOOD ENVIRONMENT IS A MAN-MADE ENVIRONMENT ***********
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Victoria Baschzok
> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the famous 25
Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
In the years after 1920.
> Points; and at the same time changed the name of the party to reflect its new
> politics to National Socialist German Party of the Labour
> (Nasionalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeitspartei).
It's: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei
I wouldn't mention it, but, this is the second time you've misspelled the
name of that party. It's understandable, if you don't speak German, but,
since you misspelled it the same way twice, I'm wandering what kind of
source material you're using.
Jack Plant
>nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>?In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
>?<ghal...@gatewest.net> wrote:
>?>Erik wrote:
>?>
>?>snip.
>?>
>?>>
>?>> BTW the Nazis _Definitely Were Socialist_
>
>Yeah, and I guess that means the German Democratic Republic was a
>democracy.
>
As a matter of fact, it was!
Jack Plant
3a...@qlink.queensu.ca
?In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
?<ghal...@gatewest.net> wrote:
?>Erik wrote:
?>
?>snip.
?>
?>>
?>> BTW the Nazis _Definitely Were Socialist_
Yeah, and I guess that means the German Democratic Republic was a
democracy.
Andy
Steve McCormick
>In article <Victoria-191...@kel022.silk.net>, Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
>>In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
>>
>>> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the famous 25
>>
>>Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
>>In the years after 1920.
>Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
Gee, Nalecki, can you count to ten without lying? Victoria makes it a
habit to bury you with sources. You're the one who backs himself up with
nothing besides his fevered imagination.
"Better a cage than a chain."
YOS, Steve McCormick
Derek Nalecki
>In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
>
>> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the famous 25
>
>Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
>In the years after 1920.
Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
derek n, RdNck, Pen-Arm of the Righteous, esq.
Victoria Baschzok
(Derek Nalecki) wrote:
> In article <Victoria-191...@kel022.silk.net>,
Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
> >In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
> >
> >> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the
famous 25
> >
> >Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
> >In the years after 1920.
>
> Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
I think I do that(include proof and citations/sources) more than anyone.
As noted before, I guess you have to say things like this to convince
yourself out of some deep seated psychological need/inferiority complex.
Especially since your arguments get destroyed so regularly because I
include them for all to join in the ridicule. Don Wagner, another
vociferous poster who is in ardent opposition with me, almost as much as
yourself, recently said it's like I have my own research team. You are
lost Derrek.
Regarding this issue is was debated as nauseam recently(as you well know)
in another thread on this very NG. I didn't hear much out of you then when
all the needed evidence was posted. Infantile gainsaying isn't really very
impressive Derrek. But, I will offer this post from another tread. I'll
repost it here because it verifies big business support for Hitler before
the war. What's really funny is that is from a article you quoted, but,
interestingly enough, omitted certain key bits.
In article <Victoria-231...@kel004.silk.net>,
Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
> In article <36809...@news.cadvision.com>, nale...@rescorporate.com
> (Derek Nalecki) wrote:
>
> > In article <sranta-2212...@nwest-53-0118.direct.ca>,
> sra...@direct.ca (Steve Ranta) wrote:
> > >In article <368006c3$1$onqnzf$mr2...@news.cow-net.com>, bad...@cow-net.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >.. . .
> > >>
> > >> All governments do this anyways, whether directly through share
> > >> ownership, or indirectly as in the US by maintaining a huge
> > >> military procurement operation.
> > >>
> > >> Germany formalized this relationship and also included worker
> > >> representation, through tripartism. . .
> > >
> > >Sounds like fascism, doesn't it?
> >
> > It is, German welfare state is the most consistent represention of modern
> > neo-fascism; as Lawrence Solomon, the editor of The Next City aptly
wrote in
> > Spring '97 issue:
>
> Yes, but, in another piece, I like what he says about Maude Barlow:"
> Barlow has many commendable qualities: She is sincere, articulate,
> passionate, and well meaning." Do you agree Derrek? Or do you refer to
> Solomon selectively...don't answer that lets look at the text you selected
> and see what you omitted, once to the extent of and outright misquote. See
> below:
>
> > "Most [sic, dn] call fascists right wing, but fascism is a form of
> > socialism. Nazi is the german acronym for National Socialist Worker's
> > Party - socialism applied at a national instead of international level.
> > Stripped of its reprehensible social policies, fascism is a system of
> > economic organization in which government imposes monopoly control over
> > big industry - utilities, steel, automobile, banking and other sectors it
> > considers important....
>
> and this goes on to say, "‹ while allowing competition among shopkeepers
> and the small suppliers needed to serve the important players. "
>
> OK, not so bad but the rest you sniped before going down a paragraphe or
> two is interesting, lets read on:
>
> "In the first few decades of this century, fascism was a shining ideal for
> great artists and industrialists alike,
> the former out of their fear that the rise of democracy would reduce
> cultural tastes to a low common
> denominator, the latter out of the natural tendency of businesses to try
> to wipe out the competition and
> establish monopolies. In 1931, General Electric president Gerard Swope,
> with the endorsement of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National
> Association of Manufacturers and the National Industrial Conference
> Board, called for the compulsory cartelization of all major American
> corporations into federally controlled trade associations for each
> industry. Central planning would have been carried out by a national
> economic council of corporate leaders and "responsible" union leaders.
> General Motors president William Knudsen, after meeting Goering, talked of
> Germany as "the miracle of the 20th century." "
>
> Wow, he seems to agree with my assertion about business supporting the
> Nazis rise to power in older and a recent thread. Now who was so
> vociferously claiming otherwise.....
>
> > After the Second World War, because fascism became a dirty word, admirers
> > of fascist countries' economic policies - the trains run on time, there
> > was a chicken in every pot - replaced the term with "mixed economy".
> > Though the fascist countries lost the war, fascist thought had won the
> > battle over economic organization. Today the fascist economic model
> > still dominates in prosperous [surely _that_ is tongue-in-cheek
description,
> > dn] nations such as Canada, France and other European countries, where
> > governments control utilities and most large business sectors."
>
> Here we have an outright misquote. That is NOT the end of the sentence as
> you indicate the full sentence was:
>
> "Today, the fascist economic model still dominates in prosperous nations
> such as Canada, France nd other European countries, where governments
> control utilities and most large business sectors, and allow relatively
> unfettered competition among most shopkeepers and small suppliers."
>
> Poor Derrek.
>
> And a great quote for further down in that piece:
>
> "America was ill served during the McCarthy era, when "commie" was the
> label of the day, and anyone who did not toe a strict, anti-communist line
> was liable to attack. Often, the object of scorn had no communist leanings
> at all, but was labelled a communist for defending, or refusing to
> denounce, friends who did. Applying the commie label was cheap and easy
> and effective. Although the excesses of the McCarthy era are past, similar
> labelling continues. In the United States, advocates of conservative
> causes stick the label "liberal" (meaning socialistic) to political
> candidates that Canadians would consider conservative,..."
>
> I guess I'd snip here if I was Nalecki, but it goes on:
>
> "... and, in Canada, socialists indiscriminately brand those they disagree
> with as neo-cons. Yet few of these neo-cons answer to that name, and for
> good reason. Some are free market types and some are interventionists. And
> some ‹ though Canadian socialists seem oblivious to this ‹ would in most
> other countries be viewed as mainstream socialists."
>
> Oh, and I'll include a lind so people can read the whole thing. Guess
> he'd do that more often if he wasn't so....selective in his editing.
Steve McCormick
>In article <3680b...@news.vphos.net>, s...@wkpowerlink.com (Steve McCormick) wrote:
>>nale...@rescorporate.com (Derek Nalecki) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <Victoria-191...@kel022.silk.net>,
>> Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
>>>>In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
>>>>
>>>>> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the famous
>> 25
>>>>
>>>>Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
>>>>In the years after 1920.
>>
>>>Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
>>
>>
>>Gee, Nalecki, can you count to ten without lying? Victoria makes it a
>>habit to bury you with sources. You're the one who backs himself up with
>>nothing besides his fevered imagination.
>>
>Oh there is credible authority on Victoria's alleged proof and sources; a hit
>and run artists, who's best post to date amounted to
>'did too, did too!... and you are mean 'n'right-wing 'n'so'.
>Well, I am sure now _everyone_ thinks Victoria and Stevie write nothing but
>the truth, after all they told us so themselves.
Of course YOU'VE never done a hit and run post, have you Dork?
Oh, by the way, anyone who wants to look up past postings on DejaNews can
see that Victoria usually does an excellent job of listing her references.
I've yet to see you use one, Dork.
Derek Nalecki
>nale...@rescorporate.com (Derek Nalecki) wrote:
>
>>In article <Victoria-191...@kel022.silk.net>,
> Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
>>>In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
>>>
>>>> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the famous
> 25
>>>
>>>Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
>>>In the years after 1920.
>
>>Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
>
>
>Gee, Nalecki, can you count to ten without lying? Victoria makes it a
>habit to bury you with sources. You're the one who backs himself up with
>nothing besides his fevered imagination.
>
Oh there is credible authority on Victoria's alleged proof and sources; a hit
and run artists, who's best post to date amounted to
'did too, did too!... and you are mean 'n'right-wing 'n'so'.
Well, I am sure now _everyone_ thinks Victoria and Stevie write nothing but
the truth, after all they told us so themselves.
derek n, RdNck, Pen-Arm of the Righteous, esq.
Derek Nalecki
>In article <3680a...@news.cadvision.com>, nale...@rescorporate.com
>(Derek Nalecki) wrote:
>
>> In article <Victoria-191...@kel022.silk.net>,
>Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
>> >In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, nale...@my-dejanews.com
> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
>> >
>> >> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the
>famous 25
>> >
>> >Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
>> >In the years after 1920.
>>
>> Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
>
>I think I do that(include proof and citations/sources) more than anyone.
>As noted before, I guess you have to say things like this to convince
>yourself out of some deep seated psychological need/inferiority complex.
>Especially since your arguments get destroyed so regularly because I
>include them for all to join in the ridicule. Don Wagner, another
>vociferous poster who is in ardent opposition with me, almost as much as
>yourself, recently said it's like I have my own research team. You are
>lost Derrek.
Oh that must be so. Since you are offering no proof and no sources, merely
mewling about how this argument has been debated for a long time (without any
credible proof or sources to back up your side of the story) that _must_ mean
my argument was "destroyed" and I am indeed "lost" <g>. After all with such a
compelling argument from you ("no really I did!, did too!! ... you are
insane") I can have no riposte to offer... except maybe that I have offered,
once gain, a logical argument, in addition to arguments from historians (which
are not proof, as you would argue, merely opinions mirroring mine), and proof
in form of Nazi party policy platforms, historical accounts of what the Nazis
did, who joined them, why, etc.
>
>Regarding this issue is was debated as nauseam recently(as you well know)
>in another thread on this very NG. I didn't hear much out of you then when
>all the needed evidence was posted. Infantile gainsaying isn't really very
>impressive Derrek. But, I will offer this post from another tread. I'll
Then you should offer a lot less of it.
I refer to Solomon when he writes about subjects I debate about. I do not
blindly agree with him on every single subject. That would be mindless, a
quality you posses in abundance, since you blindly quote someone without
really realizing what they are talking - comes from not knowing what you are
talking about most of the time.
I happen to agree with Solomon on national socialism, and disagree with him on
Barlow; that is normal, there is probably a host of other issues I happen to
agree with him on, and yet another I disagree with him on. Comes from being
able to think for oneself - you wouldn't know anything about that.
There are many other people I agree and disagree with on different issues,
something that is very likely incomprehensible to someone like you, someone
completely clueless. As we have discovered from an obscure quotation from
Engels, there was even an issue - well really half of one - that I agreed with
him on, despite considering him a complete idiot (I guess even F. Engels
cannot be wrong about everything.. though apparently _you_ can).
No, your assertion was that "most" business leaders supported Nazis, he
quotes, count'em: one. The MAN and NIC called for "cartelization"; that was not
equivalent to supporting Nazis. Your mistake comes from not understanding
basic economic, social and political ideas and terms; easy one to make for
someone completely clueless, but nevertheless one that can hardly be offered
as "proof".
>>
>> > After the Second World War, because fascism became a dirty word, admirers
>> > of fascist countries' economic policies - the trains run on time, there
>> > was a chicken in every pot - replaced the term with "mixed economy".
>> > Though the fascist countries lost the war, fascist thought had won the
>> > battle over economic organization. Today the fascist economic model
>> > still dominates in prosperous [surely _that_ is tongue-in-cheek
>description,
>> > dn] nations such as Canada, France and other European countries, where
>> > governments control utilities and most large business sectors."
>>
>> Here we have an outright misquote. That is NOT the end of the sentence as
>> you indicate the full sentence was:
>>
>> "Today, the fascist economic model still dominates in prosperous nations
>> such as Canada, France nd other European countries, where governments
>> control utilities and most large business sectors, and allow relatively
>> unfettered competition among most shopkeepers and small suppliers."
A misquote would be a change of what was written. I quoted the part of the
sentence that was relevant to the discussion; IMO there was no need to quote
the rest of it; and since I have offered the source, anyone interested could
read the whole article for themselves.
There was no attempt on my part to misled, your mouth-frothing clueless
kvetching notwithstanding.
>>
>> Poor Derrek.
Well no, actually despite the best efforts of the gangster government I am
pretty well off; and that's another thing that pisses people like you of,
isn't it?
>>
>> And a great quote for further down in that piece:
>>
>> "America was ill served during the McCarthy era, when "commie" was the
>> label of the day, and anyone who did not toe a strict, anti-communist line
>> was liable to attack. Often, the object of scorn had no communist leanings
>> at all, but was labelled a communist for defending, or refusing to
>> denounce, friends who did. Applying the commie label was cheap and easy
>> and effective. Although the excesses of the McCarthy era are past, similar
>> labelling continues. In the United States, advocates of conservative
>> causes stick the label "liberal" (meaning socialistic) to political
>> candidates that Canadians would consider conservative,..."
>>
>> I guess I'd snip here if I was Nalecki, but it goes on:
Since it isn't likely you actually understand either the above part or the one
below, that would be merely by accident.
>>
>> "... and, in Canada, socialists indiscriminately brand those they disagree
>> with as neo-cons. Yet few of these neo-cons answer to that name, and for
>> good reason. Some are free market types and some are interventionists. And
>> some ‹ though Canadian socialists seem oblivious to this ‹ would in most
>> other countries be viewed as mainstream socialists."
>>
>> Oh, and I'll include a lind so people can read the whole thing. Guess
>> he'd do that more often if he wasn't so....selective in his editing.
But you haven't included it here... I am sure it's just a simple oversight;
you being so hon.... nooo, I will not use that word as relating to you, even
as sarcasm.
..And just in case there is someone that still hasn't notice... you didn't
.. actually posted any proof for your original assertion, did you, o clueless
one?
Victoria Baschzok
In article <3685c...@news.cadvision.com>, nale...@rescorporate.com
Here is a good start from a Biography on George Bush: It documents some of
the things going on with copious references. Posted in two parts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter - II - The Hitler Project
Bush Property Seized--Trading with the Enemy
In October 1942, ten months after entering World War II, America was
preparing its first assault against Nazi military forces. Prescott Bush was
managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman. His 18-year-old son George,
the future U.S. President, had just begun training to become a naval pilot.
On Oct. 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German
banking operations in New York City which were being conducted by Prescott
Bush.
Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over the Union
Banking Corporation, in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property
Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.'s stock shares, all of which were
owned by Prescott Bush, E. Roland `` Bunny '' Harriman, three Nazi
executives, and two other associates of Bush.1
The order seizing the bank `` vests '' (seizes) `` all of the capital stock
of Union Banking Corporation, a New York corporation, '' and names the
holders of its shares as:
* `` E. Roland Harriman--3991 shares ''
[chairman and director of Union Banking Corp. (UBC); this is `` Bunny
'' Harriman, described by Prescott Bush as a place holder who didn't
get much into banking affairs; Prescott managed his personal
investments]
`` Cornelis Lievense--4 shares ''
[president and director of UBC; New York resident banking functionary
for the Nazis]
`` Harold D. Pennington--1 share ''
[treasurer and director of UBC; an office manager employed by Bush at
Brown Brothers Harriman]
`` Ray Morris--1 share ''
[director of UBC; partner of Bush and the Harrimans]
`` Prescott S. Bush--1 share ''
[director of UBC, which was co-founded and sponsored by his
father-in-law George Walker; senior managing partner for E. Roland
Harriman and Averell Harriman]
`` H.J. Kouwenhoven--1 share ''
[director of UBC; organized UBC as the emissary of Fritz Thyssen in
negotiations with George Walker and Averell Harriman; managing
director of UBC's Netherlands affiliate under Nazi occupation;
industrial executive in Nazi Germany; director and chief foreign
financial executive of the German Steel Trust]
`` Johann G. Groeninger--1 share ''
[director of UBC and of its Netherlands affiliate; industrial
executive in Nazi Germany]
`` all of which shares are held for the benefit of ... members of the
Thyssen family, [and] is property of nationals ... of a designated
enemy country.... ''
By Oct. 26, 1942, U.S. troops were under way for North Africa. On Oct. 28,
the government issued orders seizing two Nazi front organizations run by
the Bush-Harriman bank: the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the
Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation.2
U.S. forces landed under fire near Algiers on Nov. 8, 1942; heavy combat
raged throughout November. Nazi interests in the Silesian-American
Corporation, long managed by Prescott Bush and his father-in-law George
Herbert Walker, were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act on Nov.
17, 1942. In this action, the government announced that it was seizing only
the Nazi interests, leaving the Nazis' U.S. partners to carry on the
business.3
These and other actions taken by the U.S. government in wartime were,
tragically, too little and too late. President Bush's family had already
played a central role in financing and arming Adolf Hitler for his takeover
of Germany; in financing and managing the buildup of Nazi war industries
for the conquest of Europe and war against the U.S.A.; and in the
development of Nazi genocide theories and racial propaganda, with their
well-known results.
The facts presented here must be known, and their implications reflected
upon, for a proper understanding of President George Herbert Walker Bush
and of the danger to mankind that he represents. The President's family
fortune was largely a result of the Hitler project. The powerful
Anglo-American family associations, which later boosted him into the
Central Intelligence Agency and up to the White House, were his father's
partners in the Hitler project.
President Franklin Roosevelt's Alien Property Custodian, Leo T. Crowley,
signed Vesting Order Number 248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under
the Trading with the Enemy Act. The order, published in obscure government
record books and kept out of the news,4 explained nothing about the Nazis
involved; only that the Union Banking Corporation was run for the ``
Thyssen family '' of `` Germany and/or Hungary ''--`` nationals ... of a
designated enemy country. ''
By deciding that Prescott Bush and the other directors of the Union Banking
Corp. were legally front men for the Nazis, the government avoided the more
important historical issue: In what way were Hitler's Nazis themselves
hired, armed and instructed by the New York and London clique of which
Prescott Bush was an executive manager? Let us examine the Harriman-Bush
Hitler project from the 1920s until it was partially broken up, to seek an
answer for that question.
Origin and Extent of the Project
Fritz Thyssen and his business partners are universally recognized as the
most important German financiers of Adolf Hitler's takeover of Germany. At
the time of the order seizing the Thyssen family's Union Banking Corp., Mr.
Fritz Thyssen had already published his famous book, I Paid Hitler,5
admitting that he had financed Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement since
October 1923. Thyssen's role as the leading early backer of Hitler's grab
for power in Germany had been noted by U.S. diplomats in Berlin in 1932.6
The order seizing the Bush-Thyssen bank was curiously quiet and modest
about the identity of the perpetrators who had been nailed.
But two weeks before the official order, government investigators had
reported secretly that `` W. Averell Harriman was in Europe sometime prior
to 1924 and at that time became acquainted with Fritz Thyssen, the German
industrialist. '' Harriman and Thyssen agreed to set up a bank for Thyssen
in New York. `` [C]ertain of [Harriman's] associates would serve as
directors.... '' Thyssen agent `` H. J. Kouwenhoven ... came to the United
States ... prior to 1924 for conferences with the Harriman Company in this
connection.... ''7
When exactly was `` Harriman in Europe sometime prior to 1924 ''? In fact,
he was in Berlin in 1922 to set up the Berlin branch of W.A. Harriman & Co.
under George Walker's presidency.
The Union Banking Corporation was established formally in 1924, as a unit
in the Manhattan offices of W.A. Harriman & Co., interlocking with the
Thyssen-owned Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart (BHS) in the Netherlands. The
investigators concluded that `` the Union Banking Corporation has since its
inception handled funds chiefly supplied to it through the Dutch bank by
the Thyssen interests for American investment. ''
Thus by personal agreement between Averell Harriman and Fritz Thyssen in
1922, W.A. Harriman & Co. (alias Union Banking Corporation) would be
transferring funds back and forth between New York and the `` Thyssen
interests '' in Germany. By putting up about $400,000, the Harriman
organization would be joint owner and manager of Thyssen's banking
operations outside of Germany.
How important was the Nazi enterprise for which President Bush's father was
the New York banker?
The 1942 U.S. government investigative report said that Bush's Nazi-front
bank was an interlocking concern with the Vereinigte Stahlwerke (United
Steel Works Corporation or German Steel Trust) led by Fritz Thyssen and his
two brothers. After the war, Congressional investigators probed the Thyssen
interests, Union Banking Corp. and related Nazi units. The investigation
showed that the Vereinigte Stahlwerke had produced the following
approximate proportions of total German national output:
50.8% of Nazi Germany's pig iron
41.4% of Nazi Germany's universal plate
36.0% of Nazi Germany's heavy plate
38.5% of Nazi Germany's galvanized sheet
45.5% of Nazi Germany's pipes and tubes
22.1% of Nazi Germany's wire
35.0% of Nazi Germany's explosives.8
Prescott Bush became vice president of W.A. Harriman & Co. in 1926. That
same year, a friend of Harriman and Bush set up a giant new organization
for their client Fritz Thyssen, prime sponsor of politician Adolf Hitler.
The new German Steel Trust, Germany's largest industrial corporation, was
organized in 1926 by Wall Street banker Clarence Dillon. Dillon was the old
comrade of Prescott Bush's father Sam Bush from the `` Merchants of Death
'' bureau in World War I.
In return for putting up $70 million to create his organization, majority
owner Thyssen gave the Dillon Read company two or more representatives on
the board of the new Steel Trust.9
Thus there is a division of labor: Thyssen's own confidential accounts, for
political and related purposes, were run through the Walker-Bush
organization; the German Steel Trust did its corporate banking through
Dillon Read.
The Walker-Bush firm's banking activities were not just politically neutral
money-making ventures which happened to coincide with the aims of German
Nazis. All of the firm's European business in those days was organized
around anti-democratic political forces.
In 1927, criticism of their support for totalitarianism drew this retort
from Bert Walker, written from Kennebunkport to Averell Harriman: `` It
seems to me that the suggestion in connection with Lord Bearsted's views
that we withdraw from Russia smacks somewhat of the impertinent.... I think
that we have drawn our line and should hew to it. ''10
Averell Harriman met with Italy's fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini. A
representative of the firm subsequently telegraphed good news back to his
chief executive Bert Walker: `` ... During these last days ... Mussolini
... has examined and approved our c[o]ntract 15 June. ''11
The great financial collapse of 1929-31 shook America, Germany and Britain,
weakening all governments. It also made the hard-pressed Prescott Bush even
more willing to do whatever was necessary to retain his new place in the
world. It was in this crisis that certain Anglo-Americans determined on the
installation of a Hitler regime in Germany.
W.A. Harriman & Co., well-positioned for this enterprise and rich in assets
from their German and Russian business, merged with the British-American
investment house, Brown Brothers, on January 1, 1931. Bert Walker retired
to his own G.H. Walker & Co. This left the Harriman brothers, Prescott Bush
and Thatcher M. Brown as the senior partners of the new Brown Brothers
Harriman firm. (The London, England branch of the Brown family firm
continued operating under its historic name--Brown, Shipley.)
Robert A. Lovett also came over as a partner from Brown Brothers. His
father, E.H. Harriman's lawyer and railroad chief, had been on the War
Industries Board with Prescott's father. Though he remained a partner in
Brown Brothers Harriman, the junior Lovett soon replaced his father as
chief executive of Union Pacific Railroad.
Brown Brothers had a racial tradition that fitted it well for the Hitler
project! American patriots had cursed its name back in U.S. Civil War days.
Brown Brothers, with offices in the U.S.A. and in England, had carried on
their ships fully 75 percent of the slave cotton from the American South
over to British mill owners. Now in 1931, the virtual dictator of world
finance, Bank of England Governor Montagu Collet Norman, was a former Brown
Brothers partner, whose grandfather had been boss of Brown Brothers during
the U.S. Civil War. Montagu Norman was known as the most avid of Hitler's
supporters within British ruling circles, and Norman's intimacy with this
firm was essential to his management of the Hitler project.
In 1931, while Prescott Bush ran the New York office of Brown Brothers
Harriman, Prescott's partner was Montagu Norman's intimate friend Thatcher
Brown. The Bank of England chief always stayed at the home of Prescott's
partner on his hush-hush trips to New York. Prescott Bush concentrated on
the firm's German activities, and Thatcher Brown saw to their business in
old England, under the guidance of his mentor Montagu Norman.12
Hitler's Ladder to Power
Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany January 30, 1933, and absolute
dictator in March 1933, after two years of expensive and violent lobbying
and electioneering. Two affiliates of the Bush-Harriman organization played
great parts in this criminal undertaking: Thyssen's German Steel Trust; and
the Hamburg-Amerika Line and several of its executives.13
Let us look more closely at the Bush family's German partners.
Fritz Thyssen told Allied interrogators after the war about some of his
financial support for the Nazi Party: `` In 1930 or 1931 ... I told
[Hitler's deputy Rudolph] Hess ... I would arrange a credit for him with a
Dutch bank in Rotterdam, the Bank fu@aur Handel und Schiff [i.e. Bank voor
Handel en Scheepvaart (BHS), the Harriman-Bush affiliate]. I arranged the
credit ... he would pay it back in three years.... I chose a Dutch bank
because I did not want to be mixed up with German banks in my position, and
because I thought it was better to do business with a Dutch bank, and I
thought I would have the Nazis a little more in my hands... .
`` The credit was about 250-300,000 [gold] marks--about the sum I had given
before. The loan has been repaid in part to the Dutch bank, but I think
some money is still owing on it.... ''14
The overall total of Thyssen's political donations and loans to the Nazis
was well over a million dollars, including funds he raised from others--in
a period of terrible money shortage in Germany.
Friedrich Flick was the major co-owner of the German Steel Trust with Fritz
Thyssen, Thyssen's long-time collaborator and occasional competitor. In
preparation for the war crimes tribunal at Nuremberg, the U.S. government
said that Flick was `` one of leading financiers and industrialists who
from 1932 contributed large sums to the Nazi Party ... member of `Circle of
Friends' of Himmler who contributed large sums to the SS. ''15
Flick, like Thyssen, financed the Nazis to maintain their private armies
called Schutzstaffel (S.S. or Black Shirts) and Sturmabteilung (S.A., storm
troops or Brown Shirts).
The Flick-Harriman partnership was directly supervised by Prescott Bush,
President Bush's father, and by George Walker, President Bush's
grandfather.
The Harriman-Walker Union Banking Corp. arrangements for the German Steel
Trust had made them bankers for Flick and his vast operations in Germany by
no later than 1926.
The Harriman Fifteen Corporation (George Walker, president, Prescott Bush
and Averell Harriman, sole directors) held a substantial stake in the
Silesian Holding Co. at the time of the merger with Brown Brothers, Jan. 1,
1931. This holding correlated to Averell Harriman's chairmanship of the
Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation, the American group owning
one-third of a complex of steel-making, coal-mining and zinc-mining
activities in Germany and Poland, in which Friedrich Flick owned
two-thirds.16
The Nuremberg prosecutor characterized Flick as follows:
`` Proprietor and head of a large group of industrial enterprises (coal and
iron mines, steel producing and fabricating plants) ...
`Wehrwirtschaftsfuh@aurer', 1938 [title awarded to prominent industrialists
for merit in armaments drive--`Military Economy Leader'].... ''17
For this buildup of the Hitler war machine with coal, steel and arms
production, using slave laborers, the Nazi Flick was condemned to seven
years in prison at the Nuremberg trials; he served three years. With
friends in New York and London, however, Flick lived into the 1970s and
died a billionaire.
On March 19, 1934, Prescott Bush--then director of the German Steel Trust's
Union Banking Corporation--initiated an alert to the absent Averell
Harriman about a problem which had developed in the Flick
partnership.18 Bush sent Harriman a clipping from the New York Times of
that day, which reported that the Polish government was fighting back
against American and German stockholders who controlled `` Poland's largest
industrial unit, the Upper Silesian Coal and Steel Company.... ''
The Times article continued: `` The company has long been accused of
mismanagement, excessive borrowing, fictitious bookkeeping and gambling in
securities. Warrants were issued in December for several directors accused
of tax evasions. They were German citizens and they fled. They were
replaced by Poles. Herr Flick, regarding this as an attempt to make the
company's board entirely Polish, retaliated by restricting credits until
the new Polish directors were unable to pay the workmen regularly. ''
The Times noted that the company's mines and mills `` employ 25,000 men and
account for 45 percent of Poland's total steel output and 12 percent of her
coal production. Two-thirds of the company's stock is owned by Friedrich
Flick, a leading German steel industrialist, and the remainder is owned by
interests in the United States. ''
In view of the fact that a great deal of Polish output was being exported
to Hitler Germany under depression conditions, the Polish government
thought that Prescott Bush, Harriman and their Nazi partners should at
least pay full taxes on their Polish holdings. The U.S. and Nazi owners
responded with a lockout. The letter to Harriman in Washington reported a
cable from their European representative: `` Have undertaken new steps
London Berlin ... please establish friendly relations with Polish
Ambassador [in Washington]. ''
A 1935 Harriman Fifteen Corporation memo from George Walker announced an
agreement had been made `` in Berlin '' to sell an 8,000 block of their
shares in Consolidated Silesian Steel.@s1@s9 But the dispute with Poland
did not deter the Bush family from continuing its partnership with Flick.
Nazi tanks and bombs `` settled '' this dispute in September, 1939 with the
invasion of Poland, beginning World War II. The Nazi army had been equipped
by Flick, Harriman, Walker and Bush, with materials essentially stolen from
Poland.
There were probably few people at the time who could appreciate the irony,
that when the Soviets also attacked and invaded Poland from the East, their
vehicles were fueled by oil pumped from Baku wells revived by the
Harriman/Walker/Bush enterprise.
Cont.
1. Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 248. The order was
signed by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian, executed October 20,
1942; F.R. Doc. 42-11568; Filed, November 6, 1942, 11:31 A.M.; 7 Fed. Reg.
9097 (Nov. 7, 1942). See also the New York City Directory of Directors
(available at the Library of Congress). The volumes for the 1930s and 1940s
list Prescott Bush as a director of Union Banking Corporation for the years
1934 through 1943.
2. Alien Property Custodian Vesting Order No. 259: Seamless Steel Equipment
Corporation; Vesting Order No. 261: Holland-American Trading Corp.
3. Alien Property Custodian Vesting Order No. 370: Silesian-American Corp.
4. The New York Times on December 16, 1944, ran a five-paragraph page 25
article on actions of the New York State Banking Department. Only the last
sentence refers to the Nazi bank, as follows: `` The Union Banking
Corporation, 39 Broadway, New York, has received authority to change its
principal place of business to 120 Broadway. ''
The Times omitted the fact that the Union Banking Corporation had been
seized by the government for trading with the enemy, and even the fact that
120 Broadway was the address of the government's Alien Property Custodian.
5. Fritz Thyssen, I Paid Hitler, 1941, reprinted in (Port Washington, N.Y.:
Kennikat Press, 1972), p. 133. Thyssen says his contributions began with
100,000 marks given in October 1923, for Hitler's attempted `` putsch ''
against the constitutional government.
6. Confidential memorandum from U.S. embassy, Berlin, to the U.S. Secretary
of State, April 20, 1932, on microfilm in Confidential Reports of U.S.
State Dept., 1930s, Germany, at major U.S. libraries.
7. Oct. 5, 1942, Memorandum to the Executive Committee of the Office of
Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of
Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in United
States National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131,
Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to
Vesting Order No. 248.
8. Elimination of German Resources for War: Hearings Before a Subcommittee
of the Committee on Military Affairs, United States Senate, Seventy-Ninth
Congress; Part 5, Testimony of [the United States] Treasury Department,
July 2, 1945. P. 507: Table of Vereinigte Stahlwerke output, figures are
percent of German total as of 1938; Thyssen organization including Union
Banking Corporation pp. 727-31.
9. Robert Sobel, The Life and Times of Dillon Read (New York:
Dutton-Penguin, 1991), pp. 92-111. The Dillon Read firm cooperated in the
development of Sobel's book.
10. George Walker to Averell Harriman, Aug. 11, 1927, in the W. Averell
Harriman papers at the Library of Congress (designated hereafter WAH
papers).
11. `` Iaccarino '' to G. H. Walker, RCA Radiogram Sept. 12, 1927. The
specific nature of their business with Mussolini is not explained in
correspondence available for public access.
12. Andrew Boyle, Montagu Norman (London: Cassell, 1967).
Sir Henry Clay, Lord Norman (London, MacMillan & Co., 1957), pp. 18, 57,
70-71.
John A. Kouwenhouven, Partners in Banking ... Brown Brothers Harriman
(Garden City: Doubleday & Co., 1969).
13. Coordination of much of the Hitler project took place at a single New
York address. The Union Banking Corporation had been set up by George
Walker at 39 Broadway. Management of the Hamburg-Amerika Line, carried out
through Harriman's American Ship and Commerce Corp., was also set up by
George Walker at 39 Broadway.
14. Interrogation of Fritz Thyssen, EF/Me/1 of Sept. 4, 1945 in U.S.
Control Council records, photostat on page 167 in Anthony Sutton, An
Introduction to The Order (Billings, Mt.: Liberty House Press, 1986).
15. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, by the Office of United
States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality, United States
Government Printing Office, (Washington: 1948), pp. 1597, 1686.
16. `` Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation - [minutes of the] Meeting
of Board of Directors, '' Oct. 31, 1930 (Harriman papers, Library of
Congress), shows Averell Harriman as Chairman of the Board.
Prescott Bush to W.A. Harriman, Memorandum Dec. 19, 1930 on their Harriman
Fifteen Corp.
Annual Report of United Konigs and Laura Steel and Iron Works for the year
1930 (Harriman papers, Library of Congress) lists `` Dr. Friedrich Flick
... Berlin '' and `` William Averell Harriman ... New York '' on the Board
of Directors.
`` Harriman Fifteen Corporation Securities Position February 28, 1931, ''
Harriman papers, Library of Congress. This report shows Harriman Fifteen
Corporation holding 32,576 shares in Silesian Holding Co. V.T.C. worth (in
scarce depression dollars) $1,628,800, just over half the value of the
Harriman Fifteen Corporation's total holdings.
The New York City Directory of Directors volumes for the 1930s (available
at the Library of Congress) show Prescott Sheldon Bush and W. Averell
Harriman as the directors of Harriman Fifteen Corp.
`` Appointments, '' (three typed pages) marked `` Noted May 18 1931 W.A.H.,
'' (among the papers from Prescott Bush's New York Office of Brown Brothers
Harriman, Harriman papers, Library of Congress), lists a meeting between
Averell Harriman and Friedrich Flick in Berlin at 4:00 P.M., Wednesday
April 22, 1931. This was followed immediately by a meeting with Wilhelm
Cuno, chief executive of the Hamburg-Amerika Line.
The `` Report To the Stockholders of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, ''
Oct. 19, 1933 (in the Harriman papers, Library of Congress) names G.H.
Walker as president of the corporation. It shows the Harriman Fifteen
Corporation's address as 1 Wall Street--the location of G.H. Walker and Co.
17. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, op. cit., p. 1686.
18. Jim Flaherty (a BBH manager, Prescott Bush's employee), March 19, 1934
to W.A. Harriman.
* `` Dear Averell:
In Roland's absence Pres[cott] thought it advisable for me to let you
know that we received the following cable from [our European
representative] Rossi dated March 17th [relating to conflict with the
Polish government]....''
19. Harriman Fifteen Corporation notice to stockholders Jan. 7, 1935, under
the name of George Walker, President.
20. Order No. 370: Silesian-American Corp. Executed Nov. 17, 1942. Signed
by Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian. F.R. Doc. 42-14183; Filed Dec.
31, 1942, 11:28 A.M.; 8 Fed. Reg. 33 (Jan. 1, 1943).
The order confiscated the Nazis' holdings of 98,000 shares of common and
50,000 shares of preferred stock in Silesian-American.
The Nazi parent company in Breslau, Germany wrote directly to Averell
Harriman at 59 Wall St. on Aug. 5, 1940, with `` an invitation to take part
in the regular meeting of the members of the Bergwerksgesellsc[h]aft Georg
von Giesche's Erben.... '' WAH papers.
the U.S. government ordered the seizure of the Nazis' share in the
Silesian-American Corporation under the Trading with the Enemy Act. Ene
Victoria Baschzok
(Derek Nalecki) wrote:
Part 2
Three years later, nearly a year after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor,
the U.S. government ordered the seizure of the Nazis' share in the
Silesian-American Corporation under the Trading with the Enemy Act. Enemy
nationals were said to own 49 percent of the common stock and 41.67 percent
of the preferred stock of the company.
The order characterized the company as a `` business enterprise within the
United States, owned by [a front company in] Zurich, Switzerland, and held
for the benefit of Bergwerksgesellschaft George von Giesche's Erben, a
German corporation.... ''20
Bert Walker was still the senior director of the company, which he had
founded back in 1926 simultaneously with the creation of the German Steel
Trust. Ray Morris, Prescott's partner from Union Banking Corp. and Brown
Brothers Harriman, was also a director.
The investigative report prior to the government crackdown explained the ``
NATURE OF BUSINESS: The subject corporation is an American holding company
for German and Polish subsidiaries, which own large and valuable coal and
zinc mines in Silesia, Poland and Germany. Since September 1939, these
properties have been in the possession of and have been operated by the
German government and have undoubtedly been of considerable assistance to
that country in its war effort. ''21
The report noted that the American stockholders hoped to regain control of
the European properties after the war.
Control of Nazi Commerce
Bert Walker had arranged the credits Harriman needed to take control of the
Hamburg-Amerika Line back in 1920. Walker had organized the American Ship
and Commerce Corp. as a unit of the W.A. Harriman & Co., with contractual
power over Hamburg-Amerika's affairs.
As the Hitler project went into high gear, Harriman-Bush shares in American
Ship and Commerce Corp. were held by the Harriman Fifteen Corp., run by
Prescott Bush and Bert Walker.22
It was a convenient stroll for the well-tanned, athletic, handsome Prescott
Bush: From the Brown Brothers Harriman skyscraper at 59 Wall Street--where
he was senior managing partner, confidential investments manager and
adviser to Averell and his brother `` Bunny ''--he walked across to the
Harriman Fifteen Corporation at One Wall Street, otherwise known as G.H.
Walker & Co.--and around the corner to his subsidiary offices at 39
Broadway, former home of the old W.A. Harriman & Co., and still the offices
for American Ship and Commerce Corp., and of the Union Banking Corporation.
In many ways, Bush's Hamburg-Amerika Line was the pivot for the entire
Hitler project.
Averell Harriman and Bert Walker had gained control over the steamship
company in 1920 in negotiations with its post-World War I chief executive,
Wilhelm Cuno, and with the line's bankers, M.M. Warburg. Cuno was
thereafter completely dependent on the Anglo-Americans, and became a member
of the Anglo-German Friendship Society. In the 1930-32 drive for a Hitler
dictatorship, Wilhelm Cuno contributed important sums to the Nazi
Party.23
Albert Voegler was chief executive of the Thyssen-Flick German Steel Trust
for which Bush's Union Banking Corp. was the New York office. He was a
director of the Bush-affiliate BHS Bank in Rotterdam, and a director of the
Harriman-Bush Hamburg-Amerika Line. Voegler joined Thyssen and Flick in
their heavy 1930-33 Nazi contributions, and helped organize the final Nazi
leap into national power.24
The Schroeder family of bankers was a linchpin for the Nazi activities of
Harriman and Prescott Bush, closely tied to their lawyers Allen and John
Foster Dulles.
Baron Kurt von Schroeder was co-director of the massive Thyssen-Hu@autte
foundry along with Johann Groeninger, Prescott Bush's New York bank
partner. Kurt von Schroeder was treasurer of the support organization for
the Nazi Party's private armies, to which Friedrich Flick contributed. Kurt
von Schroeder and Montagu Norman's prote@aage@aa Hjalmar Schacht together
made the final arrangements for Hitler to enter the government.25
Baron Rudolph von Schroeder was vice president and director of the
Hamburg-Amerika Line. Long an intimate contact of Averell Harriman's in
Germany, Baron Rudolph sent his grandson Baron Johann Rudolph for a tour of
Prescott Bush's Brown Brothers Harriman offices in New York City in
December 1932--on the eve of their Hitler-triumph.26
Certain actions taken directly by the Harriman-Bush shipping line in 1932
must be ranked among the gravest acts of treason in this century.
The U.S. embassy in Berlin reported back to Washington that the `` costly
election campaigns '' and `` the cost of maintaining a private army of
300,000 to 400,000 men '' had raised questions as to the Nazis' financial
backers. The constitutional government of the German republic moved to
defend national freedom by ordering the Nazi Party private armies
disbanded. The U.S. embassy reported that the Hamburg-Amerika Line was
purchasing and distributing propaganda attacks against the German
government, for attempting this last-minute crackdown on Hitler's
forces.27
Thousands of German opponents of Hitlerism were shot or intimidated by
privately armed Nazi Brown Shirts. In this connection we note that the
original `` Merchant of Death, '' Samuel Pryor, was a founding director of
both the Union Banking Corp. and the American Ship and Commerce Corp. Since
Mr. Pryor was executive committee chairman of Remington Arms and a central
figure in the world's private arms traffic, his use to the Hitler project
was enhanced as the Bush family's partner in Nazi Party banking and
trans-Atlantic shipping.
The U.S. Senate arms-traffic investigators probed Remington after it was
joined in a cartel agreement on explosives to the Nazi firm I.G. Farben.
Looking at the period leading up to Hitler's seizure of power, the Senators
found that `` German political associations, like the Nazi and others, are
nearly all armed with American ... guns.... Arms of all kinds coming from
America are transshipped in the Scheldt to river barges before the vessels
arrive in Antwerp. They then can be carried through Holland without police
inspection or interference. The Hitlerists and Communists are presumed to
get arms in this manner. The principal arms coming from America are
Thompson submachine guns and revolvers. The number is great. ''28
The beginning of the Hitler regime brought some bizarre changes to the
Hamburg-Amerika Line--and more betrayals.
Prescott Bush's American Ship and Commerce Corp. notified Max Warburg of
Hamburg, Germany, on March 7, 1933, that Warburg was to be the
corporation's official, designated representative on the board of
Hamburg-Amerika.29
Max Warburg replied on March 27, 1933, assuring his American sponsors that
the Hitler government was good for Germany: `` For the last few years
business was considerably better than we had anticipated, but a reaction is
making itself felt for some months. We are actually suffering also under
the very active propaganda against Germany, caused by some unpleasant
circumstances. These occurrences were the natural consequence of the very
excited election campaign, but were extraordinarily exaggerated in the
foreign press. The Government is firmly resolved to maintain public peace
and order in Germany, and I feel perfectly convinced in this respect that
there is no cause for any alarm whatsoever. ''30
This seal of approval for Hitler, coming from a famous Jew, was just what
Harriman and Bush required, for they anticipated rather serious `` alarm ''
inside the U.S.A. against their Nazi operations.
On March 29, 1933, two days after Max's letter to Harriman, Max's son,
Erich Warburg, sent a cable to his cousin Frederick M. Warburg, a director
of the Harriman railroad system. He asked Frederick to `` use all your
influence '' to stop all anti-Nazi activity in America, including ``
atrocity news and unfriendly propaganda in foreign press, mass meetings,
etc. '' Frederick cabled back to Erich: `` No responsible groups here [are]
urging [a] boycott [of] German goods[,] merely excited individuals. '' Two
days after that, On March 31, 1933, the American-Jewish Committee,
controlled by the Warburgs, and the B'nai B'rith, heavily influenced by the
Sulzbergers (New York Times), issued a formal, official joint statement of
the two organizations, counseling `` that no American boycott against
Germany be encouraged, '' and advising `` that no further mass meetings be
held or similar forms of agitation be employed. ''31
The American Jewish Committee and the B'nai B'rith (mother of the ``
Anti-Defamation League '') continued with this hardline,
no-attack-on-Hitler stance all through the 1930s, blunting the fight
mounted by many Jews and other anti-fascists.
Thus the decisive interchange reproduced above, taking place entirely
within the orbit of the Harriman/Bush firm, may explain something of the
relationship of George Bush to American Jewish and Zionist leaders. Some of
them, in close cooperation with his family, played an ugly part in the
drama of Naziism. Is this why `` professional Nazi-hunters '' have never
discovered how the Bush family made its money?
The executive board of the Hamburg Amerika Line (Hapag) met jointly with
the North German Lloyd Company board in Hamburg on Sept. 5, 1933. Under
official Nazi supervision, the two firms were merged. Prescott Bush's
American Ship and Commerce Corp. installed Christian J. Beck, a long-time
Harriman executive, as manager of freight and operations in North America
for the new joint Nazi shipping lines (Hapag-Lloyd) on Nov. 4, 1933.
According to testimony of officials of the companies before Congress in
1934, a supervisor from the Nazi Labor Front rode with every ship of the
Harriman-Bush line; employees of the New York offices were directly
organized into the Nazi Labor Front organization; Hamburg-Amerika provided
free passage to individuals going abroad for Nazi propaganda purposes; and
the line subsidized pro-Nazi newspapers in the U.S.A., as it had done in
Germany against the constitutional German government.32
In mid-1936, Prescott Bush's American Ship and Commerce Corp. cabled M.M.
Warburg, asking Warburg to represent the company's heavy share interest at
the forthcoming Hamburg-Amerika stockholders meeting. The Warburg office
replied with the information that `` we represented you '' at the
stockholders meeting and `` exercised on your behalf your voting power for
Rm [gold marks] 3,509,600 Hapag stock deposited with us. ''
The Warburgs transmitted a letter received from Emil Helfferich, German
chief executive of both Hapag-Lloyd and of the Standard Oil subsidiary in
Nazi Germany: `` It is the intention to continue the relations with Mr.
Harriman on the same basis as heretofore.... '' In a colorful gesture,
Hapag's Nazi chairman Helfferich sent the line's president across the
Atlantic on a Zeppelin to confer with their New York string-pullers.
After the meeting with the Zeppelin passenger, the Harriman-Bush office
replied: `` I am glad to learn that Mr. Hellferich [sic] has stated that
relations between the Hamburg American Line and ourselves will be continued
on the same basis as heretofore. ''33
Two months before moving against Prescott Bush's Union Banking Corporation,
the U. S. government ordered the seizure of all property of the
Hamburg-Amerika Line and North German Lloyd, under the Trading with the
Enemy Act. The investigators noted in the pre-seizure report that Christian
J. Beck was still acting as an attorney representing the Nazi firm.34
In May 1933, just after the Hitler regime was consolidated, an agreement
was reached in Berlin for the coordination of all Nazi commerce with the
U.S.A. The Harriman International Co., led by Averell Harriman's first
cousin Oliver, was to head a syndicate of 150 firms and individuals, to
conduct all exports from Hitler Germany to the United States.35
This pact had been negotiated in Berlin between Hitler's economics
minister, Hjalmar Schacht, and John Foster Dulles, international attorney
for dozens of Nazi enterprises, with the counsel of Max Warburg and Kurt
von Schroeder.
John Foster Dulles would later be U.S. Secretary of State, and the great
power in the Republican Party of the 1950s. Foster's friendship and that of
his brother Allen (head of the Central Intelligence Agency), greatly aided
Prescott Bush to become the Republican U.S. Senator from Connecticut. And
it was to be of inestimable value to George Bush, in his ascent to the
heights of `` covert action government, '' that both of these Dulles
brothers were the lawyers for the Bush family's far-flung enterprise.
Throughout the 1930s, John Foster Dulles arranged debt restructuring for
German firms under a series of decrees issued by Adolf Hitler. In these
deals, Dulles struck a balance between the interest owed to selected,
larger investors, and the needs of the growing Nazi war-making apparatus
for producing tanks, poison gas, etc.
Dulles wrote to Prescott Bush in 1937 concerning one such arrangement. The
German-Atlantic Cable Company, owning Nazi Germany's only telegraph channel
to the United States, had made debt and management agreements with the
Walker-Harriman bank during the 1920s. A new decree would now void those
agreements, which had originally been reached with non-Nazi corporate
officials. Dulles asked Bush, who managed these affairs for Averell
Harriman, to get Averell's signature on a letter to Nazi officials,
agreeing to the changes. Dulles wrote:
Sept. 22, 1937
Mr. Prescott S. Bush
59 Wall Street, New York, N.Y.
Dear Press,
I have looked over the letter of the German-American [sic] Cable
Company to Averell Harriman.... It would appear that the only rights
in the matter are those which inure in the bankers and that no legal
embarrassment would result, so far as the bondholders are concerned,
by your acquiescence in the modification of the bankers' agreement.
Sincerely yours,
John Foster Dulles
Dulles enclosed a proposed draft reply, Bush got Harriman's signature, and
the changes went through.36
In conjunction with these arrangements, the German Atlantic Cable Company
attempted to stop payment on its debts to smaller American bondholders. The
money was to be used instead for arming the Nazi state, under a decree of
the Hitler government.
Despite the busy efforts of Bush and Dulles, a New York court decided that
this particular Hitler `` law '' was invalid in the United States; small
bondholders, not parties to deals between the bankers and the Nazis, were
entitled to get paid.37
In this and a few other of the attempted swindles, the intended victims
came out with their money. But the Nazi financial and political
reorganization went ahead to its tragic climax.
For his part in the Hitler revolution, Prescott Bush was paid a fortune.
This is the legacy he left to his son, President George Bush.
An Important Historical Note:
How the Harrimans Hired Hitler
It was not inevitable that millions would be slaughtered under fascism and
in World War II. At certain moments of crisis, crucial pro-Nazi decisions
were made outside of Germany. These decisions for pro-Nazi actions were
more aggressive than the mere `` appeasement '' which Anglo-American
historians later preferred to discuss.
Private armies of 300,000 to 400,000 terrorists aided the Nazis' rise to
power. W.A. Harriman's Hamburg-Amerika Line intervened against Germany's
1932 attempt to break them up.
The 1929-31 economic collapse bankrupted the Wall-Street-backed German
Steel Trust. When the German government took over the Trust's stock shares,
interests associated with Konrad Adenauer and the anti-Nazi Catholic Center
Party attempted to acquire the shares. But the Anglo-Americans--Montagu
Norman, and the Harriman-Bush bank--made sure that their Nazi puppet Fritz
Thyssen regained control over the shares and the Trust. Thyssen's
bankrolling of Hitler could then continue unhindered.
Unpayable debts crushed Germany in the 1920s, reparations required by the
Versailles agreements. Germany was looted by the London-New York banking
system, and Hitler's propaganda exploited this German debt burden.
But immediately after Germany came under Hitler's dictatorship, the
Anglo-American financiers granted debt relief, which freed funds to be used
for arming the Nazi state.
The North German Lloyd steamship line, which was merged with
Hamburg-Amerika Line, was one of the companies which stopped debt payments
under a Hitler decree arranged by John Foster Dulles and Hjalmar Schacht.
Kuhn Loeb and Co.'s Felix Warburg carried out the Hitler finance plan in
New York. Kuhn Loeb asked North German Lloyd bondholders to accept new
lower interest steamship bonds, issued by Kuhn Loeb, in place of the better
pre-Hitler bonds.
The Opposition
New York attorney Jacob Chaitkin, father of coauthor Anton Chaitkin, took
the cases of many different bondholders who rejected the swindle by
Harriman, Bush, Warburg, and Hitler. Representing a women who was owed $30
on an old steamship bond--and opposing John Foster Dulles in New York
municipal court--Chaitkin threatened a writ from the sheriff, tying up the
30,000 ton transatlantic liner Europa until the client received her $30.
(New York Times, January 10, 1934, p. 31 col. 3).
The American Jewish Congress hired Jacob Chaitkin as the legal director of
the boycott against Nazi Germany. The American Federation of Labor
cooperated with Jewish and other groups in the anti-import boycott. On the
other side, virtually all the Nazi trade with the United States was under
the supervision of the Harriman interests and functionaries such as
Prescott Bush, father of President George Bush.
Meanwhile, the Warburgs demanded that American Jews not `` agitate ''
against the Hitler government, or join the organized boycott. The Warburgs'
decision was carried out by the American Jewish Committee and the B'nai
B'rith, who opposed the boycott as the Nazi military state grew
increasingly powerful.
The historical coverup on these events is so tight that virtually the only
expose@aa of the Warburgs came in journalist John L. Spivak's `` Wall
Street's Fascist Conspiracy, '' in the pro-communist New Masses periodical
(Jan. 29 and Feb. 5, 1934). Spivak pointed out that the Warburgs controlled
the American Jewish Committee, which opposed the anti-Nazi boycott, while
their Kuhn Loeb and Co. had underwritten Nazi shipping; and he exposed the
financing of pro-fascist political activities by the Warburgs and their
partners and allies, many of whom were bigwigs in the American Jewish
Committee and B'nai B'rith.
Given where the Spivak piece appeared, it is not surprising that Spivak
called Warburg an ally of the Morgan Bank, but made no mention of Averell
Harriman. Mr. Harriman, after all, was a permanent hero of the Soviet
Union.
John L. Spivak later underwent a curious transformation, himself joining
the coverup. In 1967, he wrote an autobiography (A Man in His Time, New
York: Horizon Press), which praises the American Jewish Committee. The
pro-fascism of the Warburgs does not appear in the book. The former ``
rebel '' Spivak also praises the action arm of the B'nai B'rith, the
Anti-Defamation League. Pathetically, he comments favorably that the League
has spy files on the American populace which it shares with government
agencies.
Thus is history erased; and those decisions, which direct history into one
course or another, are lost to the knowledge of the current generation.
NOTES:
21. Sept. 25, 1942, Memorandum To the Executive Committee of the Office of
Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division of
Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in United
States National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group 131,
Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating to
Vesting Order No. 370.
22. George Walker was a director of American Ship and Commerce from its
organization through 1928. Consult New York City Directory of Directors.
`` Harriman Fifteen Corporation Securities Position February 28, 1931, ''
op. cit. The report lists 46,861 shares in the American Ship & Commerce
Corp.
See `` Message from Mr. Bullfin, '' Aug. 30, 1934 (Harriman Fifteen
section, Harriman papers, Library of Congress) for the joint supervision of
Bush and Walker, respectively director and president of the corporation.
23. Cuno was later exposed by Walter Funk, Third Reich Press Chief and
Under Secretary of Propaganda, in Funk's postwar jail cell at Nuremberg;
but Cuno had died just as Hitler was taking power. William L. Shirer, The
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1960), p.
144. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, op. cit., p. 1688.
24. See `` Elimination of German Resources for War, '' op. cit., pp. 881-82
on Voegler.
See Annual Report of the
(Hamburg-Amerikanische-Packetfahrt-Aktien-Gesellschaft (Hapag or
Hamburg-Amerika Line), March 1931, for the board of directors. A copy is in
the New York Public Library Annex at 11th Avenue, Manhattan.
25. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression--Supplement B, op. cit., pp. 1178,
1453-54, 1597, 1599.
See `` Elimination of German Resources for War, '' op. cit., pp. 870-72 on
Schroeder; p. 730 on Groeninger.
26. Annual Report of Hamburg-Amerika, op. cit.
Baron Rudolph Schroeder, Sr. to Averell Harriman, Nov. 14, 1932. K[night]
W[ooley] handwritten note and draft reply letter, Dec. 9, 1932.
In his letter, Baron Rudolph refers to the family's American affiliate, J.
Henry Schroder [name anglicized], of which Allen Dulles was a director, and
his brother John Foster Dulles was the principal attorney.
Baron Bruno Schroder of the British branch was adviser to Bank of England
Governor Montagu Norman, and Baron Bruno's partner Frank Cyril Tiarks was
Norman's co-director of the Bank of England throughout Norman's career.
Kurt von Schroeder was Hjalmar Schacht's delegate to the Bank for
International Settlements in Geneva, where many of the financial
arrangements for the Nazi regime were made by Montagu Norman, Schacht and
the Schroeders for several years of the Hitler regime right up to the
outbreak of World War II.
27. Confidential memorandum from U.S. embassy, Berlin, op. cit.
28. U.S. Senate `` Nye Committee '' hearings, Sept. 14, 1934, pp. 1197-98,
extracts from letters of Col. William N. Taylor, dated June 27, 1932 and
Jan. 9, 1933.
29. American Ship and Commerce Corporation to Dr. Max Warburg, March 7,
1933.
Max Warburg had brokered the sale of Hamburg-Amerika to Harriman and Walker
in 1920. Max's brothers controlled the Kuhn Loeb investment banking house
in New York, the firm which had staked old E.H. Harriman to his 1890s
buyout of the giant Union Pacific Railroad.
Max Warburg had long worked with Lord Milner and others of the racialist
British Round Table concerning joint projects in Africa and Eastern Europe.
He was an advisor to Hjalmar Schacht for several decades and was a top
executive of Hitler's Reichsbank. The reader may consult David Farrer, The
Warburgs: The Story of A Family (New York: Stein and Day, 1975).
30. Max Warburg, at M.M. Warburg and Co., Hamburg, to Averill [sic]
Harriman, c/o Messrs. Brown Brothers Harriman & Co., 59 Wall Street, New
York, N.Y., March 27, 1933.
31. This correspondence, and the joint statement of the Jewish
organizations, are reproduced in Moshe R. Gottlieb, American Anti-Nazi
Resistance, 1933-41: An Historical Analysis (New York: Ktav Publishing
House, 1982).
32. Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of
Certain Other Propaganda Activities: Public Hearings before A Subcommittee
of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, United States House of
Representatives, Seventy Third Congress, New York City, July 9-12,
1934--Hearings No. 73-NY-7 (Washington: U.S. Govt. Printing Office, 1934).
See testimony of Capt. Frederick C. Mensing, John Schroeder, Paul von
Lilienfeld-Toal, and summaries by Committee members.
See New York Times, July 16, 1933, p. 12, for organizing of Nazi Labor
Front at North German Lloyd, leading to Hamburg-Amerika after merger.
33. American Ship and Commerce Corporation telegram to Rudolph Brinckmann
at M.M. Warburg, June 12, 1936.
Rudolph Brinckmann to Averell Harriman at 59 Wall St., June 20, 1936, with
enclosed note transmitting Helfferich's letter.
Reply to Dr. Rudolph Brinckmann c/o M.M. Warburg and Co, July 6, 1936, in
the Harriman papers at the Library of Congress. The file copy of this
letter carries no signature, but is presumably from Averell Harriman.
34. Office of Alien Property Custodian, Vesting Order No. 126. Signed by
Leo T. Crowley, Alien Property Custodian, executed August 28, 1942. F.R.
Doc. 42-8774; Filed September 4, 1942, 10:55 A.M.; 7 F.R. 7061 (No. 176,
Sept. 5, 1942.) July 18, 1942, Memorandum To the Executive Committee of the
Office of Alien Property Custodian, stamped CONFIDENTIAL, from the Division
of Investigation and Research, Homer Jones, Chief. Now declassified in
United States National Archives, Suitland, Maryland annex. See Record Group
131, Alien Property Custodian, investigative reports, in file box relating
to Vesting Order No. 126.
35. New York Times, May 20, 1933. Leading up to this agreement is a
telegram which somehow escaped the shredder and may be seen in the Harriman
papers in the Library of Congress. It is addressed to Nazi official Hjalmar
Schacht at the Mayflower Hotel, Washington, dated May 11, 1933: `` Much
disappointed to have missed seeing you Tuesday afternoon.... I hope to see
you either in Washington or New York before you sail.
with my regards W.A. Harriman ''
36. Dulles to Bush letter and draft reply in WAH papers.
37. New York Times, Jan. 19, 1938.
Victoria Baschzok
McCormick) wrote:
> nale...@rescorporate.com (Derek Nalecki) wrote:
>
> >In article <3680b...@news.vphos.net>, s...@wkpowerlink.com (Steve
McCormick) wrote:
> >>nale...@rescorporate.com (Derek Nalecki) wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <Victoria-191...@kel022.silk.net>,
> >> Vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
> >>>>In article <75ftqg$ntb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
nale...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In article <366E9920...@gatewest.net>, Glen Hallick
> >>>>
> >>>>> comprehensive natiolal-socialist platform February 24th 1920 - the
famous
> >> 25
> >>>>
> >>>>Of course Hitler personally oversaw great right-wing shifts in the party.
> >>>>In the years after 1920.
> >>
> >>>Proof, sources?!?!... Oh that's right, you don't do those.
> >>
> >>
> >>Gee, Nalecki, can you count to ten without lying? Victoria makes it a
> >>habit to bury you with sources. You're the one who backs himself up with
> >>nothing besides his fevered imagination.
> >>
>
> >Oh there is credible authority on Victoria's alleged proof and sources;
a hit
> >and run artists, who's best post to date amounted to
> >'did too, did too!... and you are mean 'n'right-wing 'n'so'.
> >Well, I am sure now _everyone_ thinks Victoria and Stevie write nothing but
> >the truth, after all they told us so themselves.
>
> Of course YOU'VE never done a hit and run post, have you Dork?
>
> Oh, by the way, anyone who wants to look up past postings on DejaNews can
> see that Victoria usually does an excellent job of listing her references.
> I've yet to see you use one, Dork.
I have very rarely seen a person lose more consistently on every single
point in a debate in more threads without admitting to it, disappearing
quietly, or simply conceding. Nalecki reminds one of a fighter who gets
carried feet first out of a ring only to trumpet, upon regaining
consciousness..."Yeah, but you should've seen the other guy." As if
getting the last word = winning a debate. Most amusing.
Victoria Baschzok
fascism etc.
Fascism and sociaism are very different.
Socialism came into existence as a clearly formulated theory based on a
specific interpretation of history, fascism introduced no systematic
exposition of its ideology or purpose other than a negative reaction
against socialist and democratic egalitarianism. The growth of democratic
ideology and popular participation in politics in the 19th cent. was
terrifying to some conservative elements in European society, and fascism
grew out of the attempt to counter it by forming mass parties based
largely on the middle classes and the petty bourgeoisie, exploiting their
fear of political domination by the lower classes.
Fascism is a totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the
state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of
national life. The name was first used by the party started by Benito
Mussolini, as I'm sure your aware. Fascism, especially in its early
stages, is obliged to be antitheoretical and frankly opportunistic in
order to appeal to many diverse groups.(This pretty much explains the Nazi
party name NSDAP: National Socialist German Workers Party) A big differnce
with sociaism is fascist use of the theory of social Darwinism. The
doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for life
is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, complacent
nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making
struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist
state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma. Another
different element of fascism is its elitism. Salvation from rule by the
mob and the destruction of the existing social order can be effected only
by an authoritarian leader who embodies the highest ideals of the nation.
Fascism abhors the idea of a classless society and sees desirable order
only in a state in which each class has its distinct place and function.
Representation by classes (i.e., capital, labor, farmers, and
professionals) is substituted for representation by parties, and the
corporative state is a part of fascist dogma.
Although Mussolini's and Hitler's governments tended to interfere
considerably in economic life and to regulate its process, there can be no
doubt that despite all restrictions imposed on them, the capitalist and
landowning classes were protected by the fascist system, and many favored
it as an obstacle to socialization.
Lets look at some reaction to US leaders at the time of Mussolini. The US
embassy in Italy was telling Washington that Mussolini was a "moderate"
and that the choice in Italy is :between Mussolini and Fascism and
Giolitti and Socialism" --Henry Fletcher. Secretary of State Frank
Kellogg called Mussolini's opposition "communists, socialists, and
anarchists." - Kellogg, Krenn, U.S. Policy toward Economic Nationalism,
53-4. On the favourable general response to Mussolini's Fascism in the
United States, see John Diggins, Mussolini and Fascism (Princeton, 1972).
As the effects of the great depression hit Europe, leading to social and
political unrest, Fascist Italy received mounting praise as a bastion of
order and stability, free of class struggle and challenges from labour and
the left. "The wops are unwopping themselves," Fortune magazine wrote with
awe in a special issue devoted to Fascist Italy in 1934. State Department
roving Ambassador Norman Davis praised the successes of Italy in remarks
before the Council of Foreign Relations in 1933, speaking after the
Italian Ambassador had drawn applause from his distinguished audience
forhis description of how Italy had put its "own house in order...(Where
do you hear that phrase now?) A class war was put down"
In the major academic study of the topic, David Schmitz points out that
the model developed for Italy, with "moderate" Fascists holding the middle
ground between the dreaded left and right-wing extremists, was applied to
Nazism as well. Here, Hitler was chosen as the representative of the
moderates who promised "social order, anti-Bolshevik laws, and protection
for foreign capital(Hmmmm,getting the idea yet?)," Schmitz observes. The
American chargé d'affaires in Berlin wrote Washington in 1933 that the
hope for Germany lay in "the more moderate section of the [Nazi] party,
headed by Hitler himself...which appeal[s] to all civilized and reasonable
people," and seems to have "the upper hand" over the violent fringe. In
1937, the State Department saw Fascism as compatible with U.S. economic
interests. A report of the European Division explained its rise as the
natural reaction of "the rich and middle classes, in self-defense" when
the "dissatisfied masses, with the example of the Russian revolution
before them, swing to the Left." Fascism therefore "must succeed or the
masses, this time reinforced by the disillusioned middle classes, will
again turn to the left." Not until European Fascism attacked U.S.
interests directly did it become an avowed enemy.--Schmitz 133, 140, 174
and chapter 9
Victoria Baschzok
>The area of the use, by German corporate nazis, of slave labor has not been
>explored yet in this thread, but is well documented. Krupp von Bohlen was
>charged with this in the indictment brought before the Nuremburg Trials. (See
>page 89, Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Office of the Chief Council For
>Prosecution of Axis Criminality, Vol I, GPO 1946.)
This is a good point which should be taken up further, together with
the economic imperative, advocated by German industrialists, for
territorial expansion as means of plundering the occupied territories.
The fact is that German capitalists were heavily implicated as a
driving force in the innumerable atrocities committed by the Nazi
regime. There was no inhumanity to which they would not stoop provided
that it could be exploited in the name of profit, as the following
quotation shows this even included the slaughter at Auschwitz.
"Work was commenced immediately and on June 14 (1940) Auschwitz was
officially opened as a concentration camp for Polish political
prisoners whom the Germans wished to treat with special harshness. It
was soon to become a much more sinister place. In the meantime the
directors of IG Faben, the great German chemical trust, had discovered
Auschwitz as a "suitable" site for a new synthetic coal-oil and rubber
plant. There were not only the construction of new buildings but the
operation of the new plant would have the benefit of cheap slave
labour...
It is not without significance for an understanding of the Germans,
even the most respectable Germans, under Hitler, that such a
distinguished, internationally known firm as IG Faben, whose directors
were honoured as being among the leading businessmen of Germany,
God-fearing men all, should deliberately choose this death camp as a
suitable place for profitable operations."
"The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer, Mandarin (1996)
p.664
The interests of German capitalists was intricately bound up with the
Nazi regime politically and ideologically. The beginnings of this
symbiotic relationship are to be found in the use of the Freikorps and
ultimately SA as an industrial militia in crushing the organised
labour movement which itself led almost inevitably to the overthrow of
the Weimar Republic.
The democracy of the Weimar Republic, was unacceptable to German
Industry, because the reforms it implemented might interfere with
profitability and workplace authoritarianism. The Nazi regime
undertook immediately the liquidation of workers movements and parties
and also the "normalisation" of industrial relations with the active
support of and to the applause of German economic magnates.
"The big businessmen, pleased with the new government that was going
to put the organised workers in their place and leave management to
run its business as it wished, were asked to cough up. This they
agreed to do at a meeting on February 20 (1933) at Goering's Reichstag
Presidents Palace, at which Dr Schacht acted as host and Goering and
Hitler laid down the line to a couple of Germanys leading magnates,
including Krupp von Bolen, who had become an enthusiastic Nazi
overnight, Bosch and Schnitzler of IG Faben, and Voegler, head of the
United Steelworks. The record of this meeting has been preserved.
Hitler began a long speech with a sop to the industrialists. "Private
enterprise," he said, " cannot be maintained in the age of democracy;
it is conceivable only if people have a sound idea of authority and
personality All the worldly goods we possess we owe to the struggle of
the chosen. We must not forget that all the benefits of culture must
be introduced more or less with an iron fist." He promised the
businessmen that he would "eliminate" the Marxists and restore the
Wehrmacht (the latter was of special interest to such industries as
Krupp, United Steel and IG Faben, which stood to gain the most from
rearmament). "Now we stand before the last election," Hitler
concluded, and he promised his listeners that "regardless of the
outcome, there will be no retreat." If he did not win he would stay in
power "by other means... with other weapons." Goering, talking more to
the immediate point, stressed the necessity of "financial sacrifices"
which "surely would be much easier for industry to bear if it realised
that the election of March fifth will surely be the last one for the
next ten years, probably even for the next hundred years."
All this was made clear enough to the assembled industrialists and
they responded with enthusiasm to the promise of the end of the
infernal elections, of democracy and disarmament. Krupp, the munitions
king, who, according to Thyssen, had urged Hindenburg on January 29
not to appoint Hitler, jumped up and expressed to the Chancellor the
"gratitude" of the businessmen "for having given us such a clear
picture." Dr Schacht then passed the hat. "I collected three million
marks," he recalled at Nuremberg."
"The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich", William Shirer, Mandarin (1996)
p.145
The process continued with the acceleration of production under the
rearmament process which boosted profitability under the most
favourable conditions of industrial relations.
That the concentration of industrial forces in the specific field of
armaments was a process which itself led inexorably to war concerned
German capital not in the least. On the contrary the prospect of the
"aryanisation" of Jewish interests, plunder of capital in occupied
territories, literal enslavement of entire populations and
availability of cheap raw materials merely wetted the appetite.
Ultimately, the expansion of German territory to provide "Lebensraum"
was as much the fulfilment of the policy of German industry as it was
the Nazi State and the "restored" Wehrmacht.
"Economic determinants continued during the war itself to be
inseparably interlocked with ideological and military-strategic
factors in shaping the character and pattern of German aggression. And
chronic problems of availability and allocation of raw materials and
labour meant a voice for the leaders of the dominant war industries
which could not be ignored in the shaping of policy decisions. Given
the particular development of German capitalism during the Third
Reich, especially since 1936, the imperialist war of plunder was a
logical necessity- increasingly the only option available; German
industry was structurally implicated in the policy decisions which
culminated in destruction and inhumanity on a scale unprecedented in
Europe."
"The Nazi Dictatorship" Kershaw Ian, Arnold (1993) p.53
Feline
Victoria Baschzok
>This is not to say that ALL business interests, ALL bankers, and ALL
>industrialists supported Hitler. But it does indicate that Hitler had
>considerable support from this element in society. Nor am I saying, as
>East German historians used to say, that Hitler was the puppet or tool of
>monopoly capitalism. It was rather, the other way around. Hitler used the
>business communitee's fear of communism and the left to help his rise to
>power.
The product of East German history into the study of the Third Reich
was virtually a regurgitation of the Comminterm line originally
outlined in the mid 1930s.
"Fascism is "the open terroristic dictatorship of the most
reactionary, most chauvinist, and most imperialist elements of finance
capital."
Georgi Dimitroff, Seventh Congress of Comminterm, 1935
Like most "Stalinist" interpretations of Marxist theory and even of
Lenin's thought it was inept, literal and empirical. In particular a
number of abrupt and contradictory policy changes from the theory of
"social fascism" to that of the "United Front" were substantially
responsible for the lack of any response from the Union & Socialist
movement to the National Socialist threat. This lack of response was
acknowledged by even the leaders of Nazism as a factor in their
victory.
However, Comminterm did not have a monopoly on Marxist or even
socialist interpretation: Trotsky, Gramsci and others were developing
contemporary analyses which would stand the test of time in terms of
their subtlety and understanding of the development of the Nazi State
as a dynamic process. See, for instance "The German Catastrophe: The
Responsibility of the Leadership" Leon Trotsky for a devastating
critique of Comminterm theory and policy.
"It must suffice to point out that, for all the remaining scholarly
divisions, a growing body of recent scholarship rejects both the crude
instrumentalism of a view which sees Nazism as a movement reared and
controlled from the outset by capitalist interests, and the equally
crass counter-argument denying any structural links between capitalism
and the rise of Nazism."
"The Nazi Dictatorship" Kershaw Ian, Arnold (1993) p.40
However, I think you understate the role of German capital within the
context of the Nazi State and the role it played throughout the
development of the National Socialist movement from it's origins. It
is no exaggeration to say that without the active support and
participation of German capital Hitler would never have risen to power
and indeed that the NSDAP could not have developed beyond a minor and
insignificant party.
The reason for this collaboration is that the objectives and
ideological goals of both were not only compatible but actually
developed on a mutually dependant basis, symbiotically, as the
situation progressed.
Initially, the Nazi's acted as a de facto employers militia
originating in the Freikorps and necessitating a close interaction
between the two. Later, the Nazis developed realistic electoral
ambitions made possible through the financial assistance of capital
but on the basis of terminating an economic, political and social
crisis and restoring order.
The continued mutual interest of both parties was developed further on
the basis of the economic and social regime which the Nazis intended
to and actually did instigate. This ranged from the liquidation of the
socialist movement to the destruction of the Weimar Republic.
The symbiosis continued with the effective boost to the economy
through rearmament and the development of national economic self
sufficiency through the four year plan which was largely drawn up and
implemented by IG Faben. The latter of course provided German capital
with a de facto monopoly within the German economic sphere.
The implicit contradictions of a closed economy, rearmament and the
restitution of the Wehrmacht themselves lead inexorably to aggression,
territorial expansion and war. As one territory fell and it's assets
and workforce were plundered the same conditions which the initial
expansion had necessitated reappeared and the process of conquest
inevitably began again.
Although, the ideological underpinning of this policy for German
capital and Nazism might have had different origins there was a
congruence of intertwining mutual self interest which perpetuated the
entire process.
Neither the forces of capital nor the Nazis were puppets of either one
or the other party but both were partners in a process, with the
Wehrmacht, which developed it's own internal logic and momentum, and
which once embarked upon could not be stopped. Which is not to say
that any of these parties even wanted to stop that process regardless
of the fact that it would clearly lead to destruction, war and
genocide. Nor is it to suggest that any one of these parties at
different points didn't have more or less influence, over the others,
at any point in time.
What is certain is that overall responsibility for the horror of the
Nazi regime rests fairly and squarely with all three.
Whether you determine this process as occurring within a form of
Bonapartist regime, as Marxists do, or within a form of polytarky as
many contemporary academics do is a different point, but one which is
entirely beyond the reasoning of the likes of net libertarians because
the basis of these contrasting views rests upon understanding rather
than sub conscious reflex refutation.
Feline
Victoria Baschzok
>were totally lacking in NAZI Germany. Freedom to invest, to hire and
>fire, to decide what to produc, where to produce it, and how much to
>charge for it, all were absent in NAZI Germany.
I leave the questions of "obligatory" facts and "non obligatory" facts
to posterity and that ever growing monument of net manure which
constitutes libertarian theory. One small point though... I do find
Ronzone's attitude in this regard not just a tad authoritarian.
Returning to the point... this has been covered time and time again,
from a variety of different angles. The Libertarian argument rests
upon the absurd premise that since there was a measure of regulation
in the German economy it wasn't capitalist.
The fact that libertarians are incapable of providing a rigourous
definition of capitalism is itself indicative of the weakness of their
argument. In point is the casual observation that all capitalist
regimes have subjected their economies to varying degrees of
regulation. If the libertarian argument were genuinely sustainable
some factor describing regulation would logically equate zero
regulation at one pole of the scale and, presumably, socialism at the
other.
This kind of unidimensional, overtly simplistic thinking might suit
Ronzone's current stage of intellectual development, but anywhere
outside the rarified atmosphere of the American extreme right it makes
him look like a complete buffoon.
Let's be clear socialism means more than the mere regulation of an
economy: it means it's entire transformation in terms of management,
control and ownership. Within a socialist economy not a trace of
capitalism will remain and the entire social structure of society will
be transformed. A qualitative leap is involved, not some quantitative
shift. Libertarians only need honestly consider the economy of the
USSR, which only partially moved towards developing a socialist
society, to see that not a vestige of capitalist property relations
remained.
I submit that the distinction is completely lost on them because of
the limited intellectual rigour which their monolithic modus operendi
allows them to develop.
What libertarians fail to appreciate is that they are actually trying
to distinguish "capitalism" from "social democracy", which itself is
based upon capitalist production, no matter how regulated. Their
difficulty in achieving anything fruitful in this pointless empirical
absurdity is only made worse by their absolutist dogma.
If Ronzone genuinely wants to know more about "social democracy" in
contrast to "socialism" he need only ask Scott Erb who will, I am
sure, give him a few pointers so that he can start his political
education.
In the mean time, I present this quote again and ask Ronzone, how many
businessmen were active in the USSR in the 1930s and how many were
active in Germany at the same time? Were they all commissars Herr
Ronzone?
""Despite his harassed life, however, the businessman made good
profits. The heavy industries, chief beneficiaries of rearmament,
increased theirs from 2% in the boom year of 1926 to 6.5% in 1938, the
last full year of peace. Even the law limiting dividends to 6% worked
no hardship on the companies themselves. Just the opposite. In theory,
according to the law, any amount above that had to be invested into
government bonds - there was no thought of confiscation. Actually most
firms reinvested in their own businesses the undistributed profit,
which rose from 175 million marks in 1932 to five billion marks in
1938, a year in which the total savings in the savings banks anounted
to only 2 billions, or less than half the undistributed profits, and
in which the distributed profits in the form of dividends totalled
only 1,200,000,000 marks. Besides his pleasant profits, the
businessman was also cheered by the way the workers had been put in
their place by Hitler.There wer no more unreasonable wage demands.
Actually, wages were reduced a little despite a 25% increase in the
cost of living. And above all, there were no costly strikes. In fact
there were no strikes at all. Such manifestations of unruliness were
verboten in the Third Reich."
The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer.
Profits in a socialist economy!!!
Surely not.
Feline
Tiresias
Victoria Baschzok wrote:
An earlier post of mine on the subject with references to US support of
fascism etc. (bullshit) You are just another stupid and ignorant Canadian leftist.You dont' appear to have a clue as to what the hell you are talking about.Fascism and sociaism are very different. (Snipped)
Italian and German fascism WERE forms of socialism.
When Lenin's socialists took over Russia it was a very backward,
retarded, largely agrarian
nation. In contrast Germany in 1933 when Hitler attained power
there was one of the world's foremost
developed industrial nations. Naturally then, the socialism in Russia,
which was international in
its scope, would have to differ substantially from the strictly national
socialism in the much more industrialized
and "civilized" Germany. And we have all seen that a socialist nation
with its command economy
can still have a kind of state capitalism. Strictly speaking,
capital is any money, plant, facility, or any asset that is used for
creating more money or wealth. A poor peasant's ox in Chad that he
uses for ploughing is capital. The
slaves on American Southern ante-bellum plantation owners were capital.
A munitions factory
in the Soviet Union during the Cold war was capital. So obviously there
was capitalism in Hilter's
Third Reich. No one denies that. But that does not mean that his regime
was not collectivistic, coercive, conformist with a highly centralized
statist government. These are the
hallmarks of socialism.
Look, don't take my word for it. Read world-renowned economist Ludwig
von Mises' book
Human Action in which he differentiates the "German socialism"
of Hitler from the Russian
socialism of Lenin and Stalin. Or read F.A. Hayek's Road to Serfdom.
These great economists
have stated that Hitler's fascism was a form of SOCIALISM. Socialism
is not entirely monolithic.
For example, the late Cambodian socialist leader Pol Pot, a former
school teacher and leader of the
Khmer Rouge wanted every Cambodian over the age of 14 killed, because
he believed that with a very young
population Cambodian could more easily achieve the socialist utopia
he dreamed about. Not every other
world socialist leader held to quite the same beliefs or strategy of
Pol Pot.
In conclustion, all the specious and spurious arguments
to the contrary by you stupid and ignorant leftists are not going to
change the fact that
fascism and national socialism are somehow not socialism.
Victoria Baschzok
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> Victoria Baschzok wrote:
>
> > An earlier post of mine on the subject with references to US support of
> > fascism etc. (bullshit) You are just another stupid and ignorant
Canadian leftist.
> >
> > Fascism and sociaism are very different. (Snipped)
>
> You dont' appear to have a clue as to what the hell you are talking about.
> Italian and German fascism WERE forms of socialism.
[snip]
Could we keep this to one thread to limit posting the same material. I
address and support much of this in the post you sniped and in other posts
by myself and others in the original thread Re: Nazi Alert!
Please start by offering some direct criticism of the stuff in the
original thread as there is a lot of material there now. I'll respond then
and add more as well.
Thanks.
Sheldon Scott
>Gee, Nalecki, can you count to ten without lying? Victoria makes it a
>habit to bury you with sources. You're the one who backs himself up with
>nothing besides his fevered imagination.
>
writers, in an attempt to explain away the socialist aspects of the
Nationalist Socialists in prewar Germany. Her point seems to be a
sort of "never mind what those guys said they were doing, I have a
source who knows better". It doesn't wash. There are a wide variety
of views on Nationalist Socialist policies, and Vicky's selective
choosing of those proves nothing - except her own lack of a life.
The Nationalist Socialists were socialist. They won the key election
on the basis of giving the voters something for nothing, which is what
socialists do. Pointing out aspects of the Third Reich that "prove"
they weren't socialist merely serves to highlight the similarities
between that regime and present-day Sweden, for example, in regards to
cooperation with the private sector and the existence of the C-word
(capitalism).
The Nationalist Socialists were Socialist. That there are volumes of
academic works assuring us otherwise is to be expected. After all,
some of these same hacks are currently in the process of attempting to
explain away Red China and the USSR - both of whom made the Third
Reich socialists look like the amateurs they were.
--
): "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" :(
(: Off the monitor, through the modem, nothing but net :)
Victoria Baschzok
ssc...@no.spam.uniserve.com wrote:
> s...@wkpowerlink.com (Steve McCormick) wrote:
> >Gee, Nalecki, can you count to ten without lying? Victoria makes it a
> >habit to bury you with sources. You're the one who backs himself up with
> >nothing besides his fevered imagination.
> >
> Victoria never "buries" anyone; she posts the opinions of third- party
> writers, in an attempt to explain away the socialist aspects of the
How ironic coming from someone who I repeatedly bury in that fashion. In
this tread I have offered my own opinions and research as well as that of
others. This just makes sense to a normal person. You know I might even
quote Schrödinger and Heisenberg if we were talking about quantum theory
Generally the thing to do, you know; go to some experts etc.
> Nationalist Socialists in prewar Germany. Her point seems to be a
> sort of "never mind what those guys said they were doing, I have a
> source who knows better". It doesn't wash. There are a wide variety
No, not at all Shelly, my point is: never mind what the said they were
doing, lets examine what they really did. In this the documentary record
is clear and it totally supports my positions on this. Sorry about world
history and all getting in the way of your....views. Incidentally, notice
how Sheldon always makes these silly claims with out drawing form any of
the voluminous information posted. As if him saying it made it so. Given
his record the opposite is the case, what with him being a proven liar on
these groups.
> of views on Nationalist Socialist policies, and Vicky's selective
> choosing of those proves nothing - except her own lack of a life.
Hmmm my server didn't get your response to all those points, nor your
counter argument? Could someone who got that re-post it please.
> The Nationalist Socialists were socialist. They won the key election
> on the basis of giving the voters something for nothing, which is what
> socialists do. Pointing out aspects of the Third Reich that "prove"
Well, you don't offer any evidence, of course. But even these infantile
offerings are so obviously wrong I don't' know why you continue to
embarrass yourself on this issue. They gave the industrialists and the
middle class what they were looking for. That's why the US supported
Hitler and a "moderate" etc. Hitler carried out a social revolution that
was very successful on the economic side. That's probably why US business
adopted a lot of the ideas, or at least learned the same lessons
themselves during the war.
> they weren't socialist merely serves to highlight the similarities
> between that regime and present-day Sweden, for example, in regards to
> cooperation with the private sector and the existence of the C-word
> (capitalism).
And the US. But, do you have a point on the economic side? You're not
suggesting Sweden is some kind of Nazi state are you?
> The Nationalist Socialists were Socialist. That there are volumes of
> academic works assuring us otherwise is to be expected. After all,
Look at this. What a joke, Sheldon is saying that despite volumes of
evidence to the contrary, his beliefs are final: Fear not, his ideology is
firmly in control. As pathetic a case you'll fine on these news groups.
> some of these same hacks are currently in the process of attempting to
> explain away Red China and the USSR - both of whom made the Third
> Reich socialists look like the amateurs they were.
Name two works where you noticed this phenomenon.