Recognize Castro for what he is / MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
yara...@my-dejanews.com
Recognize Castro for what he is
MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
Wednesday, March 10, 1999
It's a sure-fire rule. When human rights are trampled in China or Indonesia
or Iran, concerned Canadians bombard me with faxes and E-mails denouncing the
government involved. When human rights are trampled in Cuba, concerned
Canadians bombard me with faxes and E-mails condemning the government of the
United States.
Such was the case when Fidel Castro put four Cuban dissidents on trial March
1 for criticizing his regime. After I wrote about the case last week, a host
of angry correspondents stepped forward to defend Mr. Castro and explain how
it was really all Washington's fault.
Didn't I know that Cuba was facing an all-out assault from the American
imperialists? Hadn't I heard about the U.S. economic embargo? Didn't I know
that Cuban health care and literacy were the best in the developing world?
Wasn't I aware that other Latin American countries had far worse records on
human rights?
Canadians have been making these excuses for Mr. Castro for at least a
generation. To apologize for the Cuban dictator is as Canadian as ice
fishing. In no other Western country does he have such loyal defenders.
Fervent supporters can be found in mainstream Canadian unions such as the
Auto Workers, in congregations such as those of the United Church, and in the
upper reaches of the Liberal Party of Canada. They can even be found in Nova
Scotia.
Searching the Internet yesterday, I came across the Nova Scotia-Cuba
Association, "established in 1989 by a group of students, professors and
activists." Along with the usual paeans to Cuban health care, it includes the
interesting claim that Cuba's democracy is just as robust as Canada's. "The
Cuban electoral system is different than ours," it says, "but not any less
valid." (Their italics.) Yes, that system happens to have returned Fidel
Castro's party in every election since the 1959 revolution, but that is only
because "the vast majority of Cubans respect and support Fidel." Cuba, it
concludes, has a "one-party democracy."
The ravings of an isolated fringe? Unfortunately not. All sorts of
intelligent and influential Canadians seem to believe that Mr. Castro and his
dictatorship are simply misunderstood.
Consider Patrick Watson, the broadcaster and former chairman of the CBC. Mr.
Watson is the creator of a 1989 television series called The Struggle for
Democracy. But just because he made a 10-part, $8-million series on democracy
does not necessarily mean he thinks it is a good thing.
When people like me criticized Prime Minister Jean Chrétien for paying a
friendly visit to Mr. Castro last spring, Mr. Watson sprang to the Cuban
leader's defence. Sure, he conceded in an article on this page, Cuba lacked a
free press and "democratic" elections (the sneer quotes apparently indicating
his doubts about so-called Western democracy). But then he reminded us that
Mr. Castro replaced someone even worse: Fulgencio Batista, the
American-backed dictator overthrown by Mr. Castro's revolution. If Mr. Castro
went on to become a doctrinaire communist, well, the blame did not lie with
him. It lay with (guess who) the Americans, whose hostility made him jump to
the Soviet camp.
This sort of apologia may have been understandable in Mr. Watson's heyday,
when the Cold War was hot and socialism still had a certain intellectual
cachet. It was then that Pierre Trudeau made his famous visit to Cuba. But
the Soviet camp collapsed in ruins eight years ago, exposing the communist
experiment once and for all as an unmitigated catastrophe that claimed tens
of millions of lives and blighted hundreds of millions more.
Mr. Castro is (along with North Korea's Kim Jong-il) the last remaining
tribune of that system. He is also the last dictator in the Western
Hemisphere. In 40 years in power -- the longest of any living political
leader -- he has never once tested his vaunted popularity in a free election.
Nor has he dared to face the scrutiny of a free press or the challenge of a
free trade union.
Instead, he blames everything on the United States. If Cuba's economy is a
shambles, blame the embargo. If Cuba throws dissidents in jail for speaking
their minds, blame the CIA. In fact, don't admit they are dissidents at all.
Call them "loafers" -- counterrevolutionary criminals who don't "produce
anything but intrigues, vain illusions, cheap empty demagoguery." That's the
official Cuban line on the four brave Cubans who were put on trial for
sedition March 1 for advocating a modest measure of democracy.
Why so many well-informed Canadians are willing to echo this stale propaganda
is an abiding mystery. To believe in the year 1999 that Fidel Castro is
anything other than a cynical dictator, and to say that his failures are
anyone's but his own, is an act of deliberate moral blindness. Mr. Castro's
apologists should hang their heads.
E-mail: mg...@globeandmail.ca
Distributed by
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/
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zu...@my-dejanews.com
yara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> March 10, 1999
>
> Recognize Castro for what he is
>
> MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
> Wednesday, March 10, 1999
<propaganda snipped>
> Why so many well-informed Canadians are willing to echo this stale propaganda
> is an abiding mystery. To believe in the year 1999 that Fidel Castro is
> anything other than a cynical dictator, and to say that his failures are
> anyone's but his own, is an act of deliberate moral blindness. Mr. Castro's
> apologists should hang their heads.
Actually, the Marcus McGees of this world should be hanging their heads...
for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have to,
do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
James Goneaux
>In article <7c8op3$5sr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> yara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> March 10, 1999
>>
>> Recognize Castro for what he is
>>
>> MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
>> Wednesday, March 10, 1999
>
><propaganda snipped>
>
>> Why so many well-informed Canadians are willing to echo this stale propaganda
>> is an abiding mystery. To believe in the year 1999 that Fidel Castro is
>> anything other than a cynical dictator, and to say that his failures are
>> anyone's but his own, is an act of deliberate moral blindness. Mr. Castro's
>> apologists should hang their heads.
>
>Actually, the Marcus McGees of this world should be hanging their heads...
>for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have to,
>do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
You still didn't answer the point: why do you apologize for Castro?
one
in alt.thebird, and proclaimed:
>March 10, 1999
>
>Recognize Castro for what he is
<snip>
You're gonna LOVE this!
Youth and Students Bill of Rights. First Draft
* The right to a job at a livable wage with union protection;
affirmative action with goals and timetables for hiring and promotion.
Paycheck to paycheck unemployment compensation, including for
first-time job seekers. Reduce the workday to 6 hours and raise the
minimum wage to at least $10 an hour.
* The right to free, quality education from nursery to university.
This includes multi-cultural, multi-lingual curriculums. Non-racist
and non-sexist education must be guaranteed. Free breakfast and lunch
programs for all schools. Stipends for full-time college students.
* The right to full equality regardless of race, nationality, sex,
religion or sexual orientation. Special measures must be taken to
overcome the years of racist discrimination against African Americans,
Latinos and other racially and nationally oppressed peoples. Full
funding to rebuild the neighborhood in these communities. Federal laws
with goals and timetables to desegregate housing and schools.
Affirmative action with goals and timetables for jobs and education.
* The right to quality, affordable housing. Every person and family
must be guaranteed a home. Massive federal funding for building and
renovating public housing. Federal rent control laws for privately
owned buildings.
* The right to free, quality health-care. Every individual must have
universal access from birth to old age to medical care, including
abortion, birth control, HIV and AIDS care, prescriptions and other
medical necessities. This should be federally financed and
administered by a single payer. No one can be turned away from any
hospital because of lack of insurance.
* The right to recreation, cultural and sports activities. The city,
state and federal governments can build and rebuild community, state
and national parks and forests. Youth centers and parks for every
community with full access to pools, fields and other sports and
recreational activities. Regular community and city-wide concerts,
dances and theater to put young musicians, writers, actors and other
artists to work and provide inexpensive performances for the
communities.
* The right to live in environmentally safe, drug and crime free
communities. Make corporations pay for the billions of dollars worth
of toxic clean-up that they caused. Shut down CIA and army airfields
that fly in billions of dollars worth of cocaine and heroine. Civilian
anti-corruption committees should be set up to oversee police and law
enforcement corruption.
* The constitution - guaranteed to all ages. This includes high school
students whose constitutional rights have been limited by Supreme
Court decisions.
* All structures to oversee services or programs should be made up of
trade unionists, workers, community leaders, students and young
people. The racial composition should reflect our multi-racial,
multi-national population. There should be men and women in equal
numbers on such structures.
The future is being stolen.
The present economic, social and political system has denied young
people the chance to develop and build lives of their own. This Ňdream
deferredÓ is shown through some astounding facts. *Official
unemployment figures of forty-five percent for teenagers, 16-19 years
old. *An astounding 75% are unemployed in many urban areas and over
80% for African American and Latino youth. *There are more African
American youths in the criminal justice system than in college. *Only
1/4 of high school graduates go onto college. *The fastest growing
section of the homeless population are children and youth. *Young
people are the least medically insured section of the population.
The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
The Fortune 500 corporations make billions of dollars a year in profit
while those who work for them or have been laid off by them barely
scrape enough together to make the bills by the end of the month.
Young people and their families are forced to sacrifice their dreams
of a decent life to the Ňfree market.Ó Billions of dollars are wasted
each year on interest payments on the national debt and on the bloated
military budget.
The young generation faces a crisis of life and death proportions.
We must meet the challenges that have been placed before us. We must
unite with our peers and allies. We must, because there is no other
way. Unity of the highest order is necessary to meet these challenges.
Black, Brown and white unity; labor/youth unity; unity between men and
women; unity of young and old; straight/gay unity is all necessary to
win victories for our generation.
The majority of young people are working class.
Young people and their families have labored to build this country, so
it is our inalienable right to a secure future. A secure future for
all young people is a secure future for all.
Youth want jobs and there's plenty that needs to be done in our
country.
We need houses for the homeless and families who have been forced to
double and triple up. We need to fix decaying roads and bridges. We
need more teachers and doctors to serve our cities and rural areas. We
need to rebuild the cities after the 12 years of blatant neglect, by
Reagan and Bush and the Newt Gingrich-inpired attacks on welfare
rights.
The present administration and Congress have an obligation to turn
this country around and put people before corporate profits.
It is unconscionable that thousands of people are thrown out on the
streets and are victims of downsizing and layoffs as Wall Street
profits soar! It is unconscionable that families go hungry while the
Emergency Public Works Jobs Bill sits in Congress stalled by
Republican-majority committees. It is unconscionable that public
schools are under-funded, over-crowded and lacking textbooks while the
military budget is over-bloated and used to make corporate coffers
even richer. It is unconscionable that year after year we see tuition
skyrocket and state and city budgets balance on the backs of students
and workers instead of the banks and the rich.
It is unconscionable that drugs and guns are pumped into communities
everyday while arms manufacturers, drug and chemical companies and the
CIA continue to operate unchecked. It is unconscionable that Black and
Latino youths are continually and systematically harassed, assaulted
and killed by police departments and racist thugs while no federal law
is passed to outlaw it. It is unconscionable that affirmative action
laws that were won after decades of struggles are being rolled back
and that racial and gender inequality is becoming more and more the
law of the land. It is unconscionable that welfare, Aid for Families
with Dependent Children, food stamps and other programs that help the
poor are being slashed. Social security and unemployment insurance are
now targets of ultra-right attack.
We cannot continue on this path.
All young people, Black, Brown and white are being denied a future by
the system called capitalism. This is why the YCL is presenting the
Youth and Student Bill of Rights for discussion and action in the
Youth and student movement and beyond.
----------
Endorsement Form for Youth and Student Bill of Rights
Yes, I agree and/or my organization agrees with the Youth and Students
Bill of Rights. I and/or my organization would like to endorse it and
work together with those who fight for the rights it demands.
First Last
Organization
Mailing Address
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This is an individual organizational endorsement.
The reasons we want to endorse...
Other ideas and resources we have...
I would like to the Youth and Students Bill of Rights.
----------
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(phone)212-741-2016 (fax)212-229-1713 e-mail:
<mailto:yclweb...@yclusa.org>yclweb...@yclusa.org
one
Goneaux) stood up in alt.thebird, and proclaimed:
>
>You still didn't answer the point: why do you apologize for Castro?
'Cause he's a fuckin' commie!
YCL Frequently Asked Questions
----------
Capitalism
Q: What is capitalism?
A: The control of commodities (goods and services) through
corporations that produce only to make profits for their shareholders
(the capitalist class). In contrast, socialism is the control of
commodities through a government that produces only to serve people
(the working class).
Q: Rich people deserve to be rich because they work harder. Why should
they give up their money?
A: Capitalists gain their wealth from the labor of others--not from
their own work. The workers who actually create the wealth-by picking
the crops or assembling the engines, for example-should get a fair
share of the wealth they create. Why should someone be a millionaire,
with three houses, a private plane, and the like when other folks
can't even afford enough to eat?
Q: Aren't people greedy by nature?
A: No. For example, in capitalist countries, little children quickly
learn to share and cooperate, but they are later taught to take more
than they need compete viciously in "the real world."
----------
Socialism and Communism
Q: How can communism be achieved in the US?
A: Unity of the working class will be needed. Workers will have to
realize that capitalism cannot solve the problems it creates and that
it is only beneficial to the few who own the factories, mines, press
and government. Hopefully, we will achieve this in the voting booth;
but if the capitalists attack, we will defend ourselves and our
system.
Q: Can people decide what job they want in communist countries?
A: Yes, and better than under capitalism. Now, you get a job based on
the education you receive, and the people you know: poor education +
bad connections = a poor job, generally. Communism will allow people
who have aptitudes for certain work the education--for free--to learn
the skills it takes to do that work.
Q: Why would anyone be motivated to work hard under communism? If you
work harder, shouldn't you get more?
A: People can learn to be motivated by working for the common good. If
we help each other, we both gain. Capitalism encourages us to fight
against each other for crumbs, while the very few stuff themselves on
the pie.
Q: Why don't you like democracy, why is communism better?
A: Democracy and communism are not opposites. Communists believe in
TRUE democracy, as opposed to our "bourgeois democracy." What that
means is when you only get to choose between millionaires running for
election, working class people (the vast majority of society) aren't
really represented. Elections in a capitalist system are almost always
decided by who can get the most corporate money. True democracy will
be realized under communism because everyone will have an equal say in
society.
Q: The world has never been fair, so how can the communists make it
fair?
A: Fairness is a function of how wealth is distributed. Under
capitalism, workers receive only a small percentage of the wealth that
they create. Under socialism, workers receive a larger share. Under
communism, workers (all people) will receive everything.
Q: What is the difference between communism and socialism?
A: The short answer is socialism is "from each according to their
ability and to each according to their DEEDS," and communism is "from
each according to their ability and to each according to their NEEDS."
The longer answer is socialism is the step between capitalism and
communism. Socialism still has people working for wages, therefore
monetary equality has not be reached. Socialism is the society that
will pave the way for a communist society by setting a foundation of
co-operation and sharing of all things in common. Communism is the
realization of these goals.
Q: What would be the benefits of socialism in the US?
A: Free health care. Free education. Decent housing and jobs at decent
pay for everyone.
Q: Is there total equality under communism?
A: Yes.
Q: Is socialism inevitable?
A: If the human race is to survive--yes, it is. Capitalism cannot
solve the problems it creates. For example, the capitalists want to
pay workers less and less so they can have more and more for
themselves. But when the workers have less, they can buy less, which
means the capitalist end up with less as a result. It's a vicious
circle that has no solution under capitalism.
Q: Does socialism automatically end exploitation, racism, sexism and
homophobia?
A: No. These societal ills are products of capitalism, but they will
not vanish immediately with socialism. They have been around for
centuries, and will take generations of the humanistic system of
socialism and a constant struggle to cure. But, socialism will make
ending these problems possible, while capitalism encourages them. At
the same time, we can't wait until "after the revolution" to fight
these ills. The fight against exploitation, racism, sexism and
homophobia is a crucial part of the struggle for socialism.
Q: How can you have communism and still have individual freedom?
A: By limiting bureaucracy, establishing human-rights laws (the CPUSA
and YCL have always advocated bill-of-rights socialism), and reminding
all workers that they need to remain involved in union and civic
activities.
Q: How free are the people in communist countries? What kind of rights
do they have? Can they think for themselves and make their own
choices?
A: These things vary according to each socialist country. Generally,
no one has the right to become wealthy or spread capitalistic
propaganda. In capitalist countries, we have only illusions of freedom
and democracy because the media is owned by only a few corporations
and the political campaigns are financed by the billionaires.
Q: How can you have communism and still have individual freedom?
A: By limiting bureaucracy, establishing human-rights laws (the CPUSA
and YCL have always advocated bill-of-rights socialism), and reminding
all workers that they need to remain involved in union and civic
activities.
Q: Are there taxes in communist countries?
A: Generally no. However I do believe that socialist countries levy
taxes on corporations and wealthy individuals.
Q: How can people get ahead in a communist country?
A: Ahead of whom? Under capitalism, people get ahead of other people.
Under socialism, and eventually communism, all people get ahead
together.
----------
Organizing, communists, and the YCL
Q: I support what the YCL stands for, but why use the name communist?
A: "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet." In other
words, we ARE communists, no matter what we call it. And, changing the
name would not keep the capitalists from making up lies and
disinformation about us. By calling ourselves Communists, we
acknowledge our roots as the organization that helped win Social
Security, unemployment insurance, the right to organize, and many
other rights that many people nowadays take for granted.
Q: Why is unity so important?
A: It's the best tool the working class has. Without unity, we fight
each other for the crumbs while the capitalist takes the majority of
the pie. With communism we each get an equal share of that pie.
Uniting gives us the strength to take on the capitalists and win!
Q: Do communists believe in god? Do they outlaw religion?
A: Some communists believe in god, some don't. Gus Hall, the chair of
the CPUSA says, "Our fight is not with God, but with capitalists."
Freedom of religion would continue under communism--as long as the
religion does not seek to destroy the system and replace it with
capitalism or any other earlier system (such as slavery or feudalism).
Q: What has the YCL ever done to improve this country?
A: It has always worked to help raise class consciousness in the
working class, and organize the unorganized. Along with our fraternal
organization, the CPUSA, and organized labor, we have been leaders in
the fights for the right to organize, unemployment insurance, social
security, affirmative action, and civil rights, as well as the fights
against english-only laws, immigrant bashing, hate crimes, and the
like.
Q: Why do people join the YCL?
A: They see the present conditions that have been wrought by
capitalism. They want to fight against racism, sexism, exploitation,
homophobia, and immigrant-bashing. They want to make the US and the
world a better place by fighting for jobs, justice, education and
equality.
Q: Do people treat you differently if you are a communist?
A: Yes. Even those who disagree with our politics know that we are
very serious about making changes. Many bless us, a few curse us, but
no one ignores us.
Q: Why is the working class so important?
A: We are the majority class. It is our work which creates the wealth
which allows a very few people to live in obscene luxury. Because we
are the majority class, we have the real power to transform society.
Q: What kind of people are in the YCL?
A: Those want to change the world into a much better place. The YCL
encourages all young people who sincerely want to make the world a
better place to join. Young people of all races, genders, religions,
sexual orientations, and nationalities are welcome.
Q: Do I have to be a communist to join the YCL?
A: No. If you are sincere about fighting the effects of capitalism,
like racism, sexism, exploitation, lousy schools, unemployment,
homelessness, and so on, you should <../join/join.html>join the YCL
right away, whether you are a communist or not.
----------
International Issues
Q: Has there ever been a communist society that succeeded?
A: Technically, there never has been a communist society. Some
socialist societies, such as China, Vietnam, and Cuba are succeeding.
Communism is the long term ideal; just as the world has evolved from
feudalism to capitalism, so it will evolve from capitalism, first
through socialism (in which the working class is dominant), then
eventually to communism (in which there are no classes). Our job is to
hasten that evolution.
Q: What communist countries still exist?
A: China, Vietnam, North Korea, and Cuba are socialist states.
Q: Was the Soviet Union a real communist country?
A: No. It was a socialist state.
Q: Why did communism fail in the Soviet Union?
A: Capitalist countries were able to spend more on the cold war. For
example, Reagan was able to build a greater military force by
obscenely increasing our national debt. Also, capitalist countries
secretly spent billions of dollars on corrupting certain Soviet
officials.
Q: Didn't Stalin kill millions of people?
A: Maybe. We have only been told what the capitalist class wants us to
believe. Ask yourself two questions. If Stalin had really purged his
officer corps in the 1930s, how was the Soviet Union capable of
winning WWII? (The Soviets lost more than twenty times as many
fighters as did we Americans.) If the Soviet Union had been unable to
win in WWII, what would your world be like now?
Q: Why do so many people want to leave Cuba?
A: Relatively few want to leave. They have all suffered due to our
40-year blockade, but most do not believe that they can become wealthy
capitalists by leaving Cuba.
Q: Is Cuba a dictatorship?
A: No. Although the Cuban people have a strong central government,
they are very active in local and national democratic elections,
especially through their union activities.
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7c94cl$h18$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>
>> Recognize Castro for what he is
>>
>> MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
>> Wednesday, March 10, 1999
>
>
>> Why so many well-informed Canadians are willing to echo this stale
propaganda
>> is an abiding mystery. To believe in the year 1999 that Fidel Castro is
>> anything other than a cynical dictator, and to say that his failures are
>> anyone's but his own, is an act of deliberate moral blindness. Mr.
Castro's
>> apologists should hang their heads.
>
>for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have
to,
>do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
And what do you say of the Cuban "journalists" who print the party line
or face jail?
Seems your definition of ass kisser fits them better than McGee.
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com
"Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7c94cl$h18$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <7c8op3$5sr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > yara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Recognize Castro for what he is
> >>
> >> MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
> >> Wednesday, March 10, 1999
> >
> >
> >> Why so many well-informed Canadians are willing to echo this stale
> propaganda
> >> is an abiding mystery. To believe in the year 1999 that Fidel Castro is
> >> anything other than a cynical dictator, and to say that his failures are
> >> anyone's but his own, is an act of deliberate moral blindness. Mr.
> Castro's
> >> apologists should hang their heads.
> >
> >for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have
> to,
> >do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
>
> And what do you say of the Cuban "journalists" who print the party line
> or face jail?
I'd say pretty much the same thing... In Cuba its a single step, in Western
Liberal Democracies its a two-step process. Print the right, or don't get
published, and don't receive an income. Then when your completely frustrated
and steal a stereo so you have some luxury goods, we'll put you in jail, your
property disrespecting bastard.;-(
> Seems your definition of ass kisser fits them better than McGee.
>
> Don Wagner
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
wilfre...@ems.att.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7c8op3$5sr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> yara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Recognize Castro for what he is
> >
> > MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
> > Wednesday, March 10, 1999
>
>
> Actually, the Marcus McGees of this world should be hanging their heads...
> for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have to,
> do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
>
La verdad que en este mundo hay mierda para todo!.
Fred
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7ca5ep$eic$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >Actually, the Marcus McGees of this world should be hanging their
heads...
>> >for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have
>> to,
>> >do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
>>
>> And what do you say of the Cuban "journalists" who print the party line
>> or face jail?
>
>I'd say pretty much the same thing... In Cuba its a single step, in Western
>Liberal Democracies its a two-step process. Print the right, or don't get
>published, and don't receive an income. Then when your completely
frustrated
>and steal a stereo so you have some luxury goods, we'll put you in jail,
your
>property disrespecting bastard.;-(
>
>> Seems your definition of ass kisser fits them better than McGee.
>>
>> Don Wagner
You seem to be a tad off base here. The prevailing "right" as you call it,
has been
for years that Castro was wonderful and just look at the nation health care
and
it's understandable that the Cuban Economy is in the tank because of the
embargo. McGee got published when he went against this line.
Perhaps you should make up your mind which is the truth before you accuse
someone else of lying.
Don Wagner
Don Wagner
wilfre...@ems.att.com wrote in message
<7cb5vi$9ab$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7c94cl$h18$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <7c8op3$5sr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> yara...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >
>> > Recognize Castro for what he is
>> >
>> > MARCUS GEE, The Globe and Mail, Canada
>> > Wednesday, March 10, 1999
>>
>>
>> Actually, the Marcus McGees of this world should be hanging their
heads...
>> for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have
to,
>> do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
Actually if we were in Cuba, McGee would likely be facing jail for going
against
the government line. Aren't you lucky to be in Canada?
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com
"Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7ca5ep$eic$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <7c9t02$i89$1...@remarQ.com>,
> > "Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>
> heads...
> >> >for being such establishment asskissers. Of course, you do what you have
> >> to,
> >> >do be a "writer" for the capitalist press.
> >>
> >> or face jail?
> >
> >I'd say pretty much the same thing... In Cuba its a single step, in Western
> >Liberal Democracies its a two-step process. Print the right, or don't get
> >published, and don't receive an income. Then when your completely
> frustrated
> >and steal a stereo so you have some luxury goods, we'll put you in jail,
> your
> >property disrespecting bastard.;-(
> >
> >> Seems your definition of ass kisser fits them better than McGee.
> >>
> >> Don Wagner
>
> You seem to be a tad off base here.
I think not.
>The prevailing "right" as you call it, has been for years that Castro was
>wonderful and just look at the nation health care and
> it's understandable that the Cuban Economy is in the tank because of the
> embargo.
That is certainly the view of those of us on the left. It is not the view that
gets published and continuously regurgitated in the capitalist press, where
there are very, very few columnists who are anything other than on the right.
>McGee got published when he went against this line.
No, McGee got published and gets published because he toes the standard line.
> Perhaps you should make up your mind which is the truth before you accuse
> someone else of lying.
You have only to consult the CIA factbook, and look up CUBA, the US, and some
other central American states, to see that CUBA really does look pretty good.
> Don Wagner
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cc1n1$3ug$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> You seem to be a tad off base here.
>
>I think not.
>
>>The prevailing "right" as you call it, has been for years that Castro was
>>wonderful and just look at the nation health care and
>> it's understandable that the Cuban Economy is in the tank because of the
>> embargo.
>
>That is certainly the view of those of us on the left. It is not the view
that
>gets published and continuously regurgitated in the capitalist press, where
>there are very, very few columnists who are anything other than on the
right.
We obviously read different papers. I feel deluged with stories playing up
the national health care and blaming the embargo for everything and how
bad Helms-Burton is.. Pierre Trudeau had an ongoing love affair
with the guy and Lloyd Axworthy is carrying on the tradition.
>
>>McGee got published when he went against this line.
>No, McGee got published and gets published because he toes the standard
line.
But it ain't the standard line. When was the last time we saw a story
dealing
with Cuba shooteng down a leaflet dropping civilian airplane, or sinking
a boat loaded with would be emigrants. All we ever hear is how bad things
are
under the US embargo. It never gets pointed out that Canada, Central and
South
America and the entire Europ[ean union ignore the embargo. We never hear
about
Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa. Just to name a few.
>
>You have only to consult the CIA factbook, and look up CUBA, the US, and
some
>other central American states, to see that CUBA really does look pretty
good.
We know. It sounds good. When your neighbor might be, and often is a police
informant, when "disrespect" of Fidal Castro is a crime, I imagine that bad
news or discontent is a rare occurrence in Cuba.
Don Wagner
Don Wagner
alleyne wrote in message <36eb1...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>...
>
>Don Wagner wrote in message <7cdjqq$mdq$1...@remarQ.com>...
>>We never hear about
>>Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa.
>
>governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back
invading
>troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
>gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
>financialy at least.
They went at the request of the Soviet Union to prop up a client state.
>
>>We know. It sounds good. When your neighbor might be, and often is a
police
>>informant, when "disrespect" of Fidal Castro is a crime, I imagine that
bad
>>news or discontent is a rare occurrence in Cuba.
>
>
>So the CDR's are able to scare the people who put the CIA factbook tgether?
>This Cuban Imperialism must be more powerful than we thought.
No, the CIA factbook contains just that. Facts. It doesnt contain the fact
however,
that Castro is the last Dictator in Latin America.
Don Wagner
alleyne
Don Wagner wrote in message <7cdjqq$mdq$1...@remarQ.com>...
>We never hear about
>Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa.
Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of their
governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back invading
troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
financialy at least.
>>You have only to consult the CIA factbook, and look up CUBA, the US, and
>some other central American states, to see that CUBA really does look
pretty
>good.
>
>We know. It sounds good. When your neighbor might be, and often is a police
>informant, when "disrespect" of Fidal Castro is a crime, I imagine that bad
>news or discontent is a rare occurrence in Cuba.
So the CDR's are able to scare the people who put the CIA factbook tgether?
This Cuban Imperialism must be more powerful than we thought.
c.
no...@wcl.on.ca
>
>So the CDR's are able to scare the people who put the CIA factbook tgether?
>This Cuban Imperialism must be more powerful than we thought.
Well, ya know ... it's very possibly true.
I got a feeling you don't know too much about "facts" from Cuba ...
(And I'm not a rightwing gusano ... I'm a nice, polite, middle of the
road, liberal Canadian ... ;-)
What a confusing world, eh?
H. Diaz
(snip)
>(And I'm not a rightwing gusano ... I'm a nice, polite, middle of the
>road, liberal Canadian ... ;-)
Please don't let me be misunderstood... :-)
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, alleyne wrote:
> Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of their
> governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back invading
> troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
> gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
> financialy at least.
Yes, imperialism: Soviet imperialism of which those Cuban troops were
part. Some sort of gain ? What about Soviet subsidies to Cuba that
amounted to millions of $$$.
> This Cuban Imperialism must be more powerful than we thought.
It certainly was, in the context of the Soviet ocupation of Cuba.
Agur,
Oscar
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Oscar Ugarriza <leso...@gate.net> wrote:
>
>
> Oscar Ugarriza
>
> leso...@gate.net
>
> On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, alleyne wrote:
>
> > Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of their
> > governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back invading
> > troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
> > gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
> > financialy at least.
>
> Yes, imperialism: Soviet imperialism of which those Cuban troops were
> part. Some sort of gain ? What about Soviet subsidies to Cuba that
> amounted to millions of $$$.
That's the point, they were subsidies. In imperialism, you take from the
poorer nation, and make the home nation richer. Obviously this did not occur
in the soviet union. It was territorially expansionist, but it was not
imperialist.
> > This Cuban Imperialism must be more powerful than we thought.
>
> It certainly was, in the context of the Soviet ocupation of Cuba.
What soviet occupation of Cuba?
> Agur,
> Oscar
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999 zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Yes, imperialism: Soviet imperialism of which those Cuban troops were
> > part. Some sort of gain ? What about Soviet subsidies to Cuba that
> > amounted to millions of $$$.
>
> That's the point, they were subsidies. In imperialism, you take from the
> poorer nation, and make the home nation richer. Obviously this did not occur
> in the soviet union. It was territorially expansionist, but it was not
> imperialist.
So territorial expansionism is not imperialism. Where were you when the
Soviets were attempting "territorial expansionism" that smelled just like
any old fashioned imperialism. And if they were just subsidies, how have
they been paid back or was this just a gift from the Soviets because
Castro was such a nice boy.
> What soviet occupation of Cuba?
Where have you been for the last 40 years ?
Agur,
Oscar
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cgju3$nq7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <Pine.A41.4.03.990314...@dakota.gate.net>,
> Oscar Ugarriza <leso...@gate.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> leso...@gate.net
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, alleyne wrote:
>>
>> > Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of
their
>> > governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back
invading
>> > troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of
net
>> > gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
>> > financialy at least.
>>
>> part. Some sort of gain ? What about Soviet subsidies to Cuba that
>> amounted to millions of $$$.
>
>That's the point, they were subsidies. In imperialism, you take from the
>poorer nation, and make the home nation richer. Obviously this did not
occur
>in the soviet union. It was territorially expansionist, but it was not
>imperialist.
So why did the left refer to the American involvement in Viet Nam as
imperialist?
Don Wagner
zu...@my-dejanews.com
>
> > > Yes, imperialism: Soviet imperialism of which those Cuban troops were
> > > part. Some sort of gain ? What about Soviet subsidies to Cuba that
> > > amounted to millions of $$$.
> >
> > That's the point, they were subsidies. In imperialism, you take from the
> > poorer nation, and make the home nation richer. Obviously this did not occur
> > in the soviet union. It was territorially expansionist, but it was not
> > imperialist.
> So territorial expansionism is not imperialism.
Not as that term is generally understood. It can, however, be very oppressive,
and may then properly be regarded as an evil.
>Where were you when the
> Soviets were attempting "territorial expansionism" that smelled just like
> any old fashioned imperialism. And if they were just subsidies, how have
> they been paid back or was this just a gift from the Soviets because
> Castro was such a nice boy.
>
Actually, Cuba is heavily in debt to the CIS nations, or so they claim. It
was one of the reasons they stopped supplying Cuba with oil.
> > What soviet occupation of Cuba?
>
> Where have you been for the last 40 years ?
Obviously in some dimension that runs parallel to your own. Perhaps you should
return to yours, and your statement might be greeted with a little less
incredulity.
> Agur,
> Oscar
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Don Wagner wrote:
> So why did the left refer to the American involvement in Viet Nam as
> imperialist?
>
> Don Wagner
>
So what has that got to do with Cuba ?
Agur,
Oscar
wilfre...@ems.att.com
no...@wcl.on.ca wrote:
>
> >
> >So the CDR's are able to scare the people who put the CIA factbook tgether?
>
>
> I got a feeling you don't know too much about "facts" from Cuba ...
>
> road, liberal Canadian ... ;-)
>
Y como deciamos en la vieja Cuba, y una buena hembra tambien!.
Fred
Harry Delaney
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > What soviet occupation of Cuba?
> >
> > Where have you been for the last 40 years ?
>
> Obviously in some dimension that runs parallel to your own. Perhaps you should
> return to yours, and your statement might be greeted with a little less
> incredulity...
By apologists for red fascism you mean.
HD
David
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zu...@my-dejanews.com
By the majority of people who inhabit the planet Earth, I mean. BTW, despite
your best efforts to revise history most inhabitants of planet Earth would
also regard the term "red fascist" as an oxymoron.
> HD
Victoria Baschzok
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cgju3$nq7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <Pine.A41.4.03.990314...@dakota.gate.net>,
> > Oscar Ugarriza <leso...@gate.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Oscar Ugarriza
> >>
> >> leso...@gate.net
> >>
> >> On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, alleyne wrote:
> >>
> >> > Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of
> their
> >> > governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back
> invading
> >> > troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of
> net
> >> > gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
> >> > financialy at least.
> >>
> >> Yes, imperialism: Soviet imperialism of which those Cuban troops were
> >> part. Some sort of gain ? What about Soviet subsidies to Cuba that
> >> amounted to millions of $$$.
> >
> >That's the point, they were subsidies. In imperialism, you take from the
> >poorer nation, and make the home nation richer. Obviously this did not
> occur
> >in the soviet union. It was territorially expansionist, but it was not
> >imperialist.
>
> So why did the left refer to the American involvement in Viet Nam as
> imperialist?
It was far more imperialist than anything Cuba has done, that's for sure.
> Don Wagner
Victoria Baschzok
> alleyne wrote in message <36eb1...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>...
> >
> >Don Wagner wrote in message <7cdjqq$mdq$1...@remarQ.com>...
> >>We never hear about
> >>Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa.
> >
> >Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of their
> >governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back
> invading
> >troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
> >gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
> >financialy at least.
>
> They went at the request of the Soviet Union to prop up a client state.
Evidence? Even on the Cold War series on CNN you have the former Soviets
telling us how they almost never agreed with Cuban adventures. Castro
confirms this in his interviews. The Soviets and Cubans almost never saw
eye to eye in Africa or the americas.
> >>We know. It sounds good. When your neighbor might be, and often is a
> police
> >>informant, when "disrespect" of Fidal Castro is a crime, I imagine that
> bad
> >>news or discontent is a rare occurrence in Cuba.
> >
> >
> >So the CDR's are able to scare the people who put the CIA factbook tgether?
> >This Cuban Imperialism must be more powerful than we thought.
>
Victoria Baschzok
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cc1n1$3ug$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >> You seem to be a tad off base here.
> >
> >I think not.
> >
> >>The prevailing "right" as you call it, has been for years that Castro was
> >>wonderful and just look at the nation health care and
> >> it's understandable that the Cuban Economy is in the tank because of the
> >> embargo.
> >
> >That is certainly the view of those of us on the left. It is not the view
> that
> >gets published and continuously regurgitated in the capitalist press, where
> >there are very, very few columnists who are anything other than on the
> right.
>
> We obviously read different papers. I feel deluged with stories playing up
> the national health care and blaming the embargo for everything and how
Really? Can you cite an article from a mainstream paper?
> bad Helms-Burton is.. Pierre Trudeau had an ongoing love affair
Helms-Burton IS bad, and has been found to be bad by the WTO. What
evidence do you have of a "love affair" between Trudeau and Castro?
> with the guy and Lloyd Axworthy is carrying on the tradition.
> >
> >>McGee got published when he went against this line.
>
> >No, McGee got published and gets published because he toes the standard
> line.
>
> But it ain't the standard line. When was the last time we saw a story
dealing with Cuba shooteng down a > >leaflet dropping civilian airplane,
or sinking a boat loaded with would be emigrants. All we ever hear is how
>bad things are under the US embargo. It never gets pointed out that
Canada, Central and
> South America and the entire Europ[ean union ignore the embargo. We
never hear
> about Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa. Just to name a few.
The reason that never gets pointed out is that then we would have to deal
with why the U.S. act in isolation on this issue. A big embarrassment to
them. Cuban imperialism in Angola? You have no idea, once again.
> >You have only to consult the CIA factbook, and look up CUBA, the US, and
> some
> >other central American states, to see that CUBA really does look pretty
> good.
>
> We know. It sounds good. When your neighbor might be, and often is a police
> informant, when "disrespect" of Fidal Castro is a crime, I imagine that bad
> news or discontent is a rare occurrence in Cuba.
>
> Don Wagner
Victoria Baschzok
>
> Why so many well-informed Canadians are willing to echo this stale propaganda
> is an abiding mystery. To believe in the year 1999 that Fidel Castro is
> anything other than a cynical dictator, and to say that his failures are
> anyone's but his own, is an act of deliberate moral blindness. Mr. Castro's
> apologists should hang their heads.
Castro's failures are by definition his own. Cuba's failures, however, can
be attributed to more the just Castro. The relentless terrorist war
conducted by the U.S. is a less talked about factor.
do...@coastnet.com
vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
> In article <7cfch0$m9h$1...@remarQ.com>, "Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>
> > alleyne wrote in message <36eb1...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>...
> > >
> > >Don Wagner wrote in message <7cdjqq$mdq$1...@remarQ.com>...
> > >>Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa.
> > >
> > >governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back
> > invading
> > >troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
> > >gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
> > >financialy at least.
> >
> > They went at the request of the Soviet Union to prop up a client state.
>
> Evidence? Even on the Cold War series on CNN you have the former Soviets
> telling us how they almost never agreed with Cuban adventures. Castro
> confirms this in his interviews. The Soviets and Cubans almost never saw
> eye to eye in Africa or the americas.
Well why were they there then, and why was Soviet airlift capability used
to get them there.
Don Wagner
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> By the majority of people who inhabit the planet Earth, I mean. BTW, despite
> your best efforts to revise history most inhabitants of planet Earth would
> also regard the term "red fascist" as an oxymoron.
>
Really? Why would that be? It seems to me that the definition of fascist,
as listed below, has been the very model of communism.
Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si- Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin
fascis bundle & fasces fasces Date: 1921 1 often capitalized : a political
philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation
and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized
autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency
toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early
instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Victoria Baschzok wrote:
> In article <7ci2b9$p0p$1...@remarQ.com>, "Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com> wrote:
> > > Oscar Ugarriza <leso...@gate.net> wrote:
> > So why did the left refer to the American involvement in Viet Nam as
> > imperialist?
>
> It was far more imperialist than anything Cuba has done, that's for sure.
Only in the sense that one country is a lot larger than the other and can
mount a larger force (although if you compare the percentage of Cuban
armed forces to their population, you would have to give Castro's Cuba a
number one imperialist rank !, not to mention the wide range of
operations which dwarfs most of the imperialist's efforts. And no wonder
the people are starving what with all that kind of imperialistic spending,
they had no money for even simple necessities to be provided by the
promise-all tyrant).
Agur,
Oscar
Victoria Baschzok
> In article <victoria-160...@24.65.4.67.bc.wave.home.com>,
> vict...@netinfo.ubc.ca (Victoria Baschzok) wrote:
> > In article <7cfch0$m9h$1...@remarQ.com>, "Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > alleyne wrote in message <36eb1...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>...
> > > >
> > > >Don Wagner wrote in message <7cdjqq$mdq$1...@remarQ.com>...
> > > >>We never hear about
> > > >>Cuban imperialism in Angola or the Horn of Africa.
> > > >
> > > >Imperialism? Cuban troops went to those countries at the request of their
> > > >governments. In the case of Angola at least they went to drive back
> > > invading
> > > >troops from apartheid South Africa. Imperialism implies some sort of net
> > > >gain - I suspect there was a net *cost* to Cuba from these expeditons,
> > > >financialy at least.
> > >
> > > They went at the request of the Soviet Union to prop up a client state.
> >
> > Evidence? Even on the Cold War series on CNN you have the former Soviets
> > telling us how they almost never agreed with Cuban adventures. Castro
> > confirms this in his interviews. The Soviets and Cubans almost never saw
> > eye to eye in Africa or the americas.
>
> Well why were they there then, and why was Soviet airlift capability used
> to get them there.
>
> Don Wagner
Part of a letter from Raul Diaz Arguelles to Raul Castro:
"In the course of this conversation, the Angolans complained about the
paucity of aid from the socialist camp, and they pointed out that if the
socialist camp does not help them, no one will, since they are the most
progressive forces [in the country], whereas the imperialists, Mobutu and
... [one word sanitized] are helping the FNLA in every way possible. They
also complained that the Soviet Union stopped aiding them in 1972 and that
although it is now sending them weapons, the amount of assistance is
paltry, given the enormity of the need. In general, he [Neto] wants to
portray the situation in Angola as a crucial struggle between the two
systems --Imperialism and Socialism -- in order to receive the assistance
of the entire socialist camp. We believe that he is right in this, because
at this time the two camps in Angola are well defined, the FNLA and UNITA
represent reactionand world imperialism and the Portuguese reactionaries,
and the MPLA represents the progressive and nationalist forces."
Larry Daley
most believe the the love affair was between Margaret Trudeau and Castro.
and the Castro was not Raul
Larry
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Victoria Baschzok wrote:
> In article <7cdjqq$mdq$1...@remarQ.com>, "Don Wagner" <do...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>
> > zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cc1n1$3ug$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > >> You seem to be a tad off base here.
> > >
> > >I think not.
> > >
> > >>The prevailing "right" as you call it, has been for years that Castro was
> > >>wonderful and just look at the nation health care and
> > >> it's understandable that the Cuban Economy is in the tank because of the
> > >> embargo.
> > >
> > >That is certainly the view of those of us on the left. It is not the view
> > that
> > >gets published and continuously regurgitated in the capitalist press, where
> > >there are very, very few columnists who are anything other than on the
> > right.
> >
> > We obviously read different papers. I feel deluged with stories playing up
> > the national health care and blaming the embargo for everything and how
>
> Really? Can you cite an article from a mainstream paper?
>
> > bad Helms-Burton is.. Pierre Trudeau had an ongoing love affair
>
> Helms-B urton IS bad, and has been found to be bad by the WTO. What
> evidence do you have of a "love affair" between Trudeau and Castro?
>
> > with the guy and Lloyd Axworthy is carrying on the tradition.
> > >
> > >>McGee got published when he went against this line.
> >
> > >No, McGee got published and gets published because he toes the standard
> > line.
> >
> > But it ain't the standard line. When was the last time we saw a story
> dealing with Cuba shooteng down a > >leaflet dropping civilian airplane,
> or sinking a boat loaded with would be emigrants. All we ever hear is how
> >bad things are under the US embargo. It never gets pointed out that
> Canada, Central and
> > South America and the entire Europ[ean union ignore the embargo. We
> never hear
Harry Delaney
Victoria Baschzok wrote:
> Castro's failures are by definition his own. Cuba's failures, however, can
> be attributed to more the just Castro. The relentless terrorist war
> conducted by the U.S. is a less talked about factor.
Relentless terrorist war = the US refuses to trade with this pathetic little
tin-pot dictatorship, and refuses to trade with anyone who trades with him and
props this little regime up. That is their right, and hardly constitutes a
"terrorist war". Its a war against a terrorist, thats for sure.
I thought that socialism was so efficient, so modern and progressive, why do these
socialist basket cases need trade with capitalist countries? Why isnt the US on its
knees before the awesome power of Cuban and Russian socialism?
HD
Harry Delaney
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > Obviously in some dimension that runs parallel to your own. Perhaps you
> should
> > > return to yours, and your statement might be greeted with a little less
> > > incredulity...
> >
> > By apologists for red fascism you mean.
>
> By the majority of people who inhabit the planet Earth, I mean. BTW, despite
> your best efforts to revise history most inhabitants of planet Earth would
> also regard the term "red fascist" as an oxymoron.
No, the "moron" is you, and the other well-pampered defenders of Cuban Red
Fascism. If Cuba is so fantastic, why are thousands of boats being built to
escape? They just imprisoned 4 people, whose only crime was speaking their
minds. Chretien's government has decided to re-think Canada's whole position on
Cuba despite the fact that Chretien knows the brow-beating he is in for from the
bleating, pathetic Canadian Left, well represented in this newsgroup.
HD
Victoria Baschzok
<h.de...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Victoria Baschzok wrote:
>
> > Castro's failures are by definition his own. Cuba's failures, however, can
> > be attributed to more the just Castro. The relentless terrorist war
> > conducted by the U.S. is a less talked about factor.
>
> Relentless terrorist war = the US refuses to trade with this pathetic little
> tin-pot dictatorship, and refuses to trade with anyone who trades with him and
> props this little regime up. That is their right, and hardly constitutes a
> "terrorist war". Its a war against a terrorist, thats for sure.
A brief list of some of the US terrorism towards Cubans re: biological warfare.
To start the CIA on a few occasions intercepted outgoing sugar from Cuba,
usually going to the SU and eastern block nations and spiked it with
contaminants. Not so much to hurt the consumers but so as to put people
off Cuban sugar. The CIA official in charge of the operation later
admitted it. - (New York Times, 28 April 1966, p. 1. and Taylor Branch and
George Crile III, "The Kennedy Vendetta", Harper's magazine (New York),
August 1975, pp. 49-63)
In 1971, also according to participants, the CIA turned over to Cuban
exiles a virus which causes African swine fever. Six weeks later, an
outbreak of the disease in Cuba forced the slaughter of 500,000 pigs to
prevent a nationwide animal epidemic. The outbreak, the first ever in
the Western hemisphere, was called the "most alarming event" of the year
by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization. - (San Francisco
Chronicle, 10 January 1977.)
A similar thing happened with humans and a dengue fever outbreak a few
years later. Transmitted by blood-eating insects, usually mosquitos, the
disease produces severe flu symptoms and incapacitating bone pain.
Between May and October 1981, over 300,000 cases were reported in Cuba
with 158 fatalities, 101 of which were children under 15. (Bill Schaap,
"The 1981 Cuba Dengue Epidemic", Covert Action Information Bulletin
(Washington), No. 17, Summer 1982, pp. 28-31.)
In 1956 and 1958, declassified documents have revealed, the US Army loosed
swarms of specially bred mosquitos in Georgia and Florida to see whether
disease-carrying insects could be weapons in a biological war. The
mosquitos bred for the tests were of the Aedes Aegypti type, the precise
carrier of dengue fever as well as other diseases. ( San Francisco
Chronicle, 30 October 1980. )
In 1984 a Cuban exile in New York testified that in late 1980 he was
involved in a effort in which a ship going from Florida to Cuba was on a
mission to carry some germs to introduce them in Cuba to be used against
the Soviets and against the Cuban economy, to begin what was called
chemical war, which later on produced results that were not what we had
expected, because we thought that it was going to be used against the
Soviet forces, and it was used against our own people, and with that we
did not agree. - (Covert Action Information Bulletin (Washington), No. 22,
Fall 1984, p. 35; the trial of Eduardo Victor Arocena Perez, Federal
District Court for the Southern District of New York, transcript of 10
September 1984, pp. 2187-89.)
And so on....but if your wondering about Cuban jumpiness over foreign
planes heading toward their island, one of the attempts on Castros life
was a good old fashioned bombing from a B-26. They were going to do it
while he was addressing a crowd in a stadium. The bomber was driven off by
anti-aircraft fire. (Reports of the assassination attempts have been
disclosed in many places; see Interim Report: Alleged Assassination Plots
Involving Foreign Leaders, The Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities (US Senate), 20
November 1975, pp. 71-180, for a detailed, although not complete, account.
Stadium bombing attempt: New York Times, 22 November 1964, p. 26. )
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7ckl06$710$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > your best efforts to revise history most inhabitants of planet Earth would
> > also regard the term "red fascist" as an oxymoron.
> >
>
> as listed below, has been the very model of communism.
>
> Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si- Function: noun
> Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin
> fascis bundle & fasces fasces Date: 1921 1 often capitalized : a political
> philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation
> and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized
> autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
> social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency
> toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early
> instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
>
zu...@my-dejanews.com
>
wrote:
>
> > > > Oscar Ugarriza <leso...@gate.net> wrote:
> > > So why did the left refer to the American involvement in Viet Nam as
> > > imperialist?
> >
>
> > It was far more imperialist than anything Cuba has done, that's for sure.
>
> Only in the sense that one country is a lot larger than the other and can
> mount a larger force (although if you compare the percentage of Cuban
> armed forces to their population, you would have to give Castro's Cuba a
> number one imperialist rank !, not to mention the wide range of
> operations which dwarfs most of the imperialist's efforts. And no wonder
> the people are starving what with all that kind of imperialistic spending,
> they had no money for even simple necessities to be provided by the
> promise-all tyrant).
>
> Agur,
> Oscar
No wonder so many people think the Cuban exile community in Florida are nuts.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Harry Delaney <h.de...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > > > Obviously in some dimension that runs parallel to your own. Perhaps you
> > should
> > > > return to yours, and your statement might be greeted with a little less
> > > > incredulity...
> > >
> > > By apologists for red fascism you mean.
> >
> > your best efforts to revise history most inhabitants of planet Earth would
> > also regard the term "red fascist" as an oxymoron.
>
Do you have any clue what the word "oxymoron" means you stupid fascist piece
of shit?
>and the other well-pampered defenders of Cuban Red
>Fascism. If Cuba is so fantastic, why are thousands of boats being built to
>escape?
Are thousands of boats being built to escape? That's a new one. OTOH, have
150,000 people disappeared in Cuba in the last 20 years, ala Guatemala? Have
120,000 people died in civil war ala El Salvador?
>They just imprisoned 4 people, whose only crime was speaking their
> minds. Chretien's government has decided to re-think Canada's whole position
>on Cuba despite the fact that Chretien knows the brow-beating he is in for from
>the bleating, pathetic Canadian Left, well represented in this newsgroup.
That the cretin has decided to bend over for uncle sam is not surprising. He
couldn't give a rats ass about human rights, as his treatment of native
protestors as Gustavsen Lake and Iperwash, his treatment of student protestors
at UBC, his scrapping of the YOA, and his complete silence on East Timor and
Indonesia show.
> HD
Pepe Pan
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7clmav$2gf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Really? Why would that be? It seems to me that the definition of fascist,
> > as listed below, has been the very model of communism.
> >
> > Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si- Function:
noun
> > Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin
> > fascis bundle & fasces fasces Date: 1921 1 often capitalized : a political
> > philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation
> > and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized
> > autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
> > social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency
> > toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early
> > instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
> Try reading a book - as in a text,as opposed to a dictionary - on the subject.
Dear Zunti,
Ivan needs not reading any book on the subject, for he *lived* under such a
regime. Try the same and then you would probably throw out all those little
red books of yours....
"Comunistas de salon" we use to call them, or "comunistas de cafe con leche",
now we can also use "bookie communists"....
Saludos.
Pepe Pan
Pepe Pan
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> No wonder so many people think the Cuban exile community in Florida are nuts.
No wonder so many people think you are a pathetic idiotic bigot.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Try reading a book - as in a text,as opposed to a dictionary - on the subject.
>
Sadly I lived under just such a fascist dictatorship, consequently book
learning on the subject would seem superfluous. Try living the subject, as
opposed to reading about it.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <7cn0pp$amk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Really? Why would that be? It seems to me that the definition of
fascist,
> > > as listed below, has been the very model of communism.
> > >
> > > Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si- Function:
> noun
> > > Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin
> > > fascis bundle & fasces fasces Date: 1921 1 often capitalized : a political
> > > philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts
nation
> > > and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized
> > > autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
> > > social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a
tendency
> > > toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
<early
> > > instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
>
subject.
>
>
> Ivan needs not reading any book on the subject, for he *lived* under such a
> regime. Try the same and then you would probably throw out all those little
> red books of yours....
>
> "Comunistas de salon" we use to call them, or "comunistas de cafe con leche",
> now we can also use "bookie communists"....
>
> Saludos.
> Pepe Pan
Dear Pepe,
I know people who have lived in Cuba, refugees from Chile. They had no
complaints. I also know people who have been tortured and had family killed in
El Salvador. If you think your complaints against the cuban government don't
pale in signficance, you should give your head a shake.
BTW, I am not now and never have been a member of the Communist Party.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7cn0pp$amk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Try reading a book - as in a text,as opposed to a dictionary - on the
subject.
> >
>
> learning on the subject would seem superfluous. Try living the subject, as
> opposed to reading about it.
See reply to Pepe.
Let's do an experiment. We'll take away all your money and send you to
Managua, or San Salvador. Stay there for two years, and come back and see if
you can still talk about the fascism of Cuba.
When you exiles post, one question always comes to mind? Did you flee or were
you kicked out?
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <7cn0v9$aqb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > No wonder so many people think the Cuban exile community in Florida are
nuts.
> No wonder so many people think you are a pathetic idiotic bigot.
I don't think too many people think I'm a bigot, and not too many think I'm
idiotic... though some may think I'm pathetic. ;-( So did you flee or were you
kicked out?
> Saludos.
> Pepe Pan
wilfre...@ems.att.com
> > Saludos.
> > Pepe Pan
>
> Dear Pepe,
> I know people who have lived in Cuba, refugees from Chile. They had no
> complaints. I also know people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> El Salvador. If you think your complaints against the cuban government don't
> pale in signficance, you should give your head a shake.
> BTW, I am not now and never have been a member of the Communist Party.
> >
We must be in two different worlds, I know plenty of people who have visited
or lived in Cuba who think that the regime is the worst or one of the
worst in Latin America.
I am not now or never have been a member or any right wing dictatorship,
or a communist either.
Fred
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Let's do an experiment. We'll take away all your money and send you to
> Managua, or San Salvador. Stay there for two years, and come back and see if
> you can still talk about the fascism of Cuba.
>
Newflash for you, did it! My family left Cuba with nothing, not a penny,
went to Spain made a successful living there, then came to the US and made a
successful living here too. Some family members went to PR and made a living
there, and a whole branch of the family did the same in Costa Rica.
But I see your point, you are one of those who look at the situation in Cuba
and whine about how much worse it could be, a typical reaction from one who
has no personal connections to the island. I on the other hand have a more
personal reaction to problems in Cuba.
BTW, are you saying that castro's government is not fascist? Let's see it's
certainly nationalist, it crushes all dissent, all power is on the hands of a
single charismatic leader, it emphasizes the state over the individual.
Which of those characteristics are not fascist in nature?
> When you exiles post, one question always comes to mind? Did you flee or were
> you kicked out?
>
Is there a difference between the two? Whether one leaves by choice to flee
from oppression, or is forced by an oppressive government to leave seems like
a rather thin distinction.
Harry Delaney
Victoria Baschzok wrote:
> > < Brief Lists of contents of "X-files" episodes snipped>
> >
> > Thanks for the headlines from "Crack-Pot Central". I was going to renew my
> > subscription to "Covert Action Quarterly", but I was tight for money,
> and it was
> > that or the "National Enquirier". Naturally, I went with the more reputable
> > magazine.
>
> No evidence, no facts and no argument.
>
> Normally Delaney tries to personalize posts, so as to direct you away from
> what is important and what the debate is actually about. Now he's just
> attacking, almost radome, third party entities, as if that makes for an
> argument. Very strange. Very sad.
No YOU are very sad. You spend all your time demanding "evidence" from others to
support their opinions, but use crack-pot lunatic fringe bullshit to back up
yours. It was only a matter of time before someone in the know called you on it.
Thats what you are bitter about. What did you think, you would get away with it
forever?
HD
Pepe Pan
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I don't think...
Well that's pretty obvious.
Saludos.
Pepe Pan
Pepe Pan
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I know people who have lived in Cuba, refugees from Chile. They had no
> complaints.
Dear Zunti,
I know some Americans that were in Chile under Pinochet and have no
complaints. But see....I'm not stupid enough as to think their opinion
reflects the true situation.
> I also know people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> El Salvador.
I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
Cuba.
> If you think your complaints against the cuban government don't
> pale in signficance, you should give your head a shake.
I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that regime.
If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your utter
ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7colsk$luj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Let's do an experiment. We'll take away all your money and send you to
> > Managua, or San Salvador. Stay there for two years, and come back and see if
> > you can still talk about the fascism of Cuba.
> >
>
> Newflash for you, did it! My family left Cuba with nothing, not a penny,
> went to Spain made a successful living there, then came to the US and made a
> successful living here too.
Glad you understood the comment... but newsflash for you - Spain isn't San
Salvador or Managua, and anyone fleeing Cuba probably looks quite appealing to
Franco-ruled Spain.
>Some family members went to PR and made a living
>there, and a whole branch of the family did the same in Costa Rica.
Costa Rica is also a paradise compared to many other Central and South
American states.
> But I see your point, you are one of those who look at the situation in Cuba
> and whine about how much worse it could be, a typical reaction from one who
> has no personal connections to the island. I on the other hand have a more
> personal reaction to problems in Cuba.
Sigh! I see it and note that it looks pretty good, compared to all the other
places you could be complaining about - if humanitarian concerns were really
your motivation. (see the reproduced article from Mother Jones below)
> BTW, are you saying that castro's government is not fascist? Let's see it's
> certainly nationalist, it crushes all dissent, all power is on the hands of a
> single charismatic leader, it emphasizes the state over the individual.
> Which of those characteristics are not fascist in nature?
The main characteristic - the government doesn't act to preserve the financial
and political-economic interests of a self-identified ruling class.
> > When you exiles post, one question always comes to mind? Did you flee or
were
> > you kicked out?
> Is there a difference between the two? Whether one leaves by choice to
>flee from oppression, or is forced by an oppressive government to leave seems
>like a rather thin distinction.
Not much, but if we subscribe to a market-place theory of political
interaction, then those who are defeated by a government which advocates the
abolishion of all private property, must already have created conditions in
which the vast majority have no private property and no reason to believe
that those who do, should. i.e. they governed very poorly. (one of my great
grandfather's fled Russia when the Bosheviks were causing disturbance. He had
a very nice estate on the shores of the Crimea, and fully expected to be
executed if things really got out of hand. OTOH, he blamed the Czar and
Romanov families for the problems: they were ruthless, compassionless, and
generally witless)
Guatemala: Bill Clinton's Latest Damn-Near Apology
"If it is necessary to turn the country into a cemetery in order to
pacify it, I will not hesitate to do so." Guatemalan President Carlos Arana,
1971
"The guerrilla is the fish. The people are the sea. If you cannot catch
the fish, you have to drain the sea." Guatemalan President Efrain Rios Montt,
1982
"United States... support for military forces or intelligence units which
engaged in violent and widespread repression... was
wrong." United States President Bill Clinton, last Wednesday
President Clinton finally damn-near apologized for America's role in
almost a half-century of repression in Guatemala.
Clinton was forced into this damn-near apology after the U.N.'s independent
Historical Clarification Commission issued a nine-volume report called
"Guatemala: Memory Of Silence."
Created as part of the 1996 peace accord that ended Guatemala's civil war,
the Commission and its 272 staff members interviewed combatants on both
sides of the conflict, gathered news reports and eyewitness accounts
from across the country, and extensively examined declassified U.S.
government documents.
The result?
The U.N.'s Commission concludes that for decades, the United States
knowingly gave money, training, and other vital support to a military
regime that committed atrocities as a matter of policy, and even "acts of
genocide" against the Mayan people.
Thus Clinton's latest appalling damn-near apology.
It's a common rationalization that in a civil war, both sides commit
atrocities in roughly equal amounts. But the Commission examined 42,275
separate human-rights violations -- torture, executions, systematic rape,
and so on, including 626 documented incidents the Commission could only
describe as "massacres." The final score:
93% were committed by U.S.-supported government paramilitary forces.
4% cannot be attributed with certainty.
3% were committed by rebels.
And worse, as Amnesty International and other independent observers have
reported for years, the vast majority of victims were non-combatant
civilians.
Merely trying to form an opposition political party was reason enough to
be killed. So was being a trade unionist, a student or professor, a
journalist, a church official, a child or elderly person from the same
village as a suspected rebel, a doctor who merely treated another victim,
or even a widow of one of the disappeared simply asking for the body.
But most of the casualties were Mayan Indians. Since the rebels didn't
have the military strength to be able to hold cities, they hid in rural
areas populated primarily by Mayans. So the Guatemalan government simply
slaughtered entire villages, engaging in "the massive extermination of
defenseless Mayan communities."
200,000 people died.
The Commission also concludes that massacres -- which rose to the level of
"genocide" during the war's peak years in the early 1980s -- were not
random acts of field commanders beyond government control. The genocide
was deliberate policy. And U.S. support and training of the paramilitary
was crucial, having "a significant bearing on human-rights violations."
Unfortunately, the report doesn't name specific officers and government
officials responsible. But that's not terribly surprising: last year,
Roman Catholic bishop Juan Jose Gerardi issued a report on wartime
atrocities that did just that.
A few days later, Father Gerardi was bludgeoned to death with a concrete
block.
This is the country Bill Clinton now lauds as "a battlefield of ideology
[that] has been transformed into a marketplace of ideas."
Some marketplace. Ca-chunk. Thank you, come again.
Thing is, the Commission's findings aren't really news at all. What's new
here is the depth of documentation, and that the information is coming
from an official source.
That the Guatemalan military committed genocide and widespread atrocities
has been widely known for many years. That the U.S. supported and trained
the Guatemalan military, along with repressive security forces in numerous
other countries, is a matter of public record.
In September 1996, the U.S. Department of Defense admitted that manuals
used until recently to train Latin American soldiers included numerous
illegal practices, including summary execution. And in January of 1997,
two CIA manuals on interrogation were declassified that contained plain
references to electrical and chemical torture.
(One of the CIA's manuals, prepared for their 1954 covert war in
Guatemala, is a 21-page "Study of Assassination" which admits that murder
"is not morally justifiable" -- and then explains how to kill by whopping
someone with "a hammer, axe, wrench, screw driver, fire poker, kitchen
knife, lamp stand, or anything hard, heavy, and handy." Which presumably
includes concrete blocks. Yeesh. Scans of a few of the more bizarre
pages and the complete text of the assassination manual will be posted on
my Web site, <a href="http://www.bobharris.com">www.bobharris.com</a>, by the
end of this week.)
However, the Pentagon's Inspector General characterized the manuals as
simply "mistakes."
Yuh-huh. Sure.
The IG did not go on to specify just who made the mistakes or how, or why
at least a thousand copies of the "mistakes" were distributed to police
and military agencies around the world. And since the "mistakes" were
made public, not a single American officer has been disciplined,
reassigned, or even retrained.
In truth, the manuals can actually be traced to Project X, a 1965 Army
program to train military, police, and paramilitary forces throughout
Southeast Asia and Latin America. Project X was a direct precursor to
Operation Phoenix in Vietnam and Operation Condor in South America,
notorious programs that resulted in the deaths of tens of thousand of
civilians. Project X was halted under the Carter administration, but its
essentials were reinstated in 1982 under President Ronald Reagan.
And this just in: documents released last Wednesday, the same day Clinton
wobbled through his damn-near apology, indicate that the U.S. was more
intimately involved with the Guatemalan paramilitary than even the
Commission report indicates.
(This new batch of documents was obtained by the National Security
Archive, a non-profit bunch of truthseekers who do tremendous work
obtaining and analyzing the internal records of things we weren't supposed
to know. You can find many of their most intense findings posted on their
Web site, <a
href="http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/">www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/</a>.)
Thanks to last week's releases, it's now indisputable that as early as
1966, officials from the U.S. State Department, far from opposing the
torturers, set up a "safe house" for security forces in Guatemala's
presidential palace, which eventually became the headquarters for
"kidnapping, torture... bombings, street assassinations, and executions of
real or alleged communists." CIA documents also prove that from the
get-go, U.S. intelligence was fully aware that "disappearances" were
actually kidnappings followed by summary executions. Rather than act to
stop the slaughter, however, the State Department continued to provide
tens of millions of dollars in aid.
The flow of cash stopped briefly in 1977 when the Carter Administration
made further aid dependent on improved human rights. However, once Reagan
was elected, covert money and support for the Guatemalan dictatorship
increased to new heights, as did the atrocities.
A newly-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report states that, as
was done by CIA-supported security forces in Argentina, the bodies of
victims both dead and alive were routinely hurled out of aircraft into the
ocean, removing "the evidence showing that the prisoners were tortured."
Still, aid to the Guatemalan government continued through the Bush years,
even though CIA cables reported as late as 1992 on the continuing
destruction of entire Indian villages, killing "combatants and
noncombatants alike."
"Counterinsurgency" aid to Guatemala continued until 1995, when Clinton
finally pulled the plug after American lawyer Jennifer Harbury was able to
generate a small amount of public outrage over the torture and murder of
her Guatemalan husband by a CIA informant.
Unfortunately, CIA "anti-drug" money continues to flow into Guatemala to
this day. Not that it's serving any visible anti-drug function: as of
this writing, Guatemala trails only Mexico as a transshipment point for
Columbian drugs entering the U.S., and many of the same CIA-supported
military officers suspected of human-rights abuses are also considered to
be major drug traffickers.
The State Department knows full well that at least 250 tons of cocaine
pass through Guatemala each year. And the DEA reportedly has the goods on
over 30 Guatemalan military officers. But so far, for some reason,
prosecutions still aren't happening. Gee, I wonder why...
Your tax dollars at work.
The 1954 coup destroyed Guatemala's democratic institutions and
established a brutal military dictatorship as the nation's supreme power.
And almost half a century of CIA-supported repression, torture, and murder
later, an American president is barely able to mutter a damn-near apology.
And people actually complain that Clinton isn't sorry enough about
Monica.
Speaking of which...
If you believe ABC, almost one quarter of the entire United States sat
down the other night and watched Barbara Walters make Monica Lewinsky weep.
This skillful extraction of bodily fluids in extreme close-up for public
titillation is, of course, what Barbara Walters does for a living.
Watching her manipulate the guest into crying is the highlight -- the
money shot -- of every interview Walters does.
Barbara Walters is the Jenna Jameson of the tear duct.
And none of this is news.
Afterwards, every media outlet from <i>Nightline</i> to frat boys writing
words in the snow from hotel balconies opined about Monica's clothes, hair,
and lip liner. Body language was analyzed. People on the street were
interviewed. Poll numbers were compiled. Sides were chosen.
And none of this is news.
(Incidentally, several of my best friends and I discussed what we would
honestly do if any of us were President of the United States, and Monica
Lewinsky had suddenly dropped trou, exposed her great white caudal fin,
and snapped a mercenary thong in our direction. And we all agreed,
sincerely, on exactly what we would do next: <i>call security.</i>)
As to what Clinton did that night, all you probably heard was that he
ducked out to New Jersey. Commentators speculated he was trying not to be
asked about the blubberfest. The wire services noted that he was seen
singing along with Gloria Gaynor's rendition of "I Will Survive."
And not one minute of any of this is news.
What Clinton was actually doing in New Jersey was news: attending a
fundraiser for Senator Bob Torricelli that pulled in two million dollars
in a single night.
And this is money for a guy who isn't even up for reelection until 2002.
That that's normal now -- that's news.
That just for a shot at some Senate seats you gotta raise over ten
thousand dollars a day, seven days a week, for the whole six years you're in
office -- that's news.
And that the news media doesn't even think it's unusual enough to bother
reporting -- that's news.
Too bad Monica didn't mention it, so it might have gotten on TV.
Bob Harris is a radio commentator, political writer, and humorist who has
spoken at almost 300 colleges nationwide.
Victoria Baschzok
<h.de...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Victoria Baschzok wrote:
>
> > > < Brief Lists of contents of "X-files" episodes snipped>
> > >
> > > Thanks for the headlines from "Crack-Pot Central". I was going to renew my
> > > subscription to "Covert Action Quarterly", but I was tight for money,
> > and it was
> > > that or the "National Enquirier". Naturally, I went with the more
reputable
> > > magazine.
> >
> > No evidence, no facts and no argument.
> >
> > Normally Delaney tries to personalize posts, so as to direct you away from
> > what is important and what the debate is actually about. Now he's just
> > attacking, almost radome, third party entities, as if that makes for an
> > argument. Very strange. Very sad.
>
> No YOU are very sad. You spend all your time demanding "evidence" from
others to
> support their opinions, but use crack-pot lunatic fringe bullshit to back up
No Harry, there are others, but I'm demanding evidence for YOUR silly
arguments. Evidence which you have not supplied.
Now, in the first place, I use a multiplicity of sources from the Wall
Street Journal to more fringe publications. However, I don't know the last
time I referred to CAQ, and not in this thread. Just look in the tread we
are both participating in. In the Hitler and Pinochet thread I refer to
books on the subject, from David Schmitz to Michael Leffler or even
transcripts from the Nürnberg war crimes tribunal that you can get on-line
for verification (since I know you don't read books). Now those are books
buy experts who are respected and I quote them and their books. Nothing up
my sleeve, Harry. I wish I was familiar with the more of the expert
writings on paranoia and delusion, perhaps a I could help you then. Now
what issues of CAQ to any of these appear? But that's moot as you have
offered no evidence whatever of CAQ not being a reputable magazine, so
your argument fails twice. OK, maybe you're right, I'd like to know if any
of the sources are bogus, PLEASE furnish me with credible evidence that
they are and I'll denounce them right along side you. However, given your
history it would be foolish to hold ones breath.
> yours. It was only a matter of time before someone in the know called
you on it.
> Thats what you are bitter about. What did you think, you would get away
with it
> forever?
Lets look at Delaney's technique. He knows he can't deal with the material
so either he ignores it, or if he can't ignore it, then he defames the
speaker. That's the only way you can deal with it if you don't have the
brains or the knowledge or you just know your position can't be defended.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Harry Delaney <h.de...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Victoria Baschzok wrote:
>
> > > < Brief Lists of contents of "X-files" episodes snipped>
> > >
> > > Thanks for the headlines from "Crack-Pot Central". I was going to renew my
> > > subscription to "Covert Action Quarterly", but I was tight for money,
> > and it was
> > > that or the "National Enquirier". Naturally, I went with the more
reputable
> > > magazine.
> >
> > No evidence, no facts and no argument.
> >
> > Normally Delaney tries to personalize posts, so as to direct you away from
> > what is important and what the debate is actually about. Now he's just
> > attacking, almost radome, third party entities, as if that makes for an
> > argument. Very strange. Very sad.
>
> No YOU are very sad. You spend all your time demanding "evidence" from others
to
> support their opinions, but use crack-pot lunatic fringe bullshit to back up
it.
> Thats what you are bitter about. What did you think, you would get away with
it
> forever?
You certainly don't classify as "being in the know." Being a "clueless moron,"
now that fits.
> HD
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <7com61$mai$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > I don't think...
>
> Well that's pretty obvious.
>
Now that one of the Florida cubans would stoop to selectively snipping a
usenet post... that is a real surprise.
> Saludos.
> Pepe Pan
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > I know people who have lived in Cuba, refugees from Chile. They had no
> > complaints.
>
> Dear Zunti,
>
> I know some Americans that were in Chile under Pinochet and have no
> complaints. But see....I'm not stupid enough as to think their opinion
> reflects the true situation.
Good for you.
> > I also know people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> > El Salvador.
>
> I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> Cuba.
Details, details!
> > If you think your complaints against the cuban government don't
> > pale in signficance, you should give your head a shake.
> I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that regime.
> If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your utter
> ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
> replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
Are you now indicating you are the type who likes to have the heads of people
who disagree with you politically removed? You'd have done real well in San
Salvador...
Harry Delaney
Victoria Baschzok wrote:
> Lets look at Delaney's technique. He knows he can't deal with the material
> so either he ignores it, or if he can't ignore it, then he defames the
> speaker.
What your problem is that I have dealt with your..ahem..."material". Covert action
quarterly is a freak publication so far left wing it doesn't appear on most people's
political spectrum. Thats what you are whining about, someone finally pointed out
your moronic "sources".
HD
Vivian Perez
>
> I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that regime.
> If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your utter
> ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
> replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
>
> Saludos.
> Pepe Pan
Ahhhhh, Pepe.. Con pena observo que durante mi ausencia no se ha
encontrado la cura para ese espantoso mal *tan* padecido por los
foraneos ignorantes: "drinking-rum-from-the-bottelitis".
Lamentablemente, a muchos canadienses el primero se les
"complica" con los otros requete males: "looking-through-rose
colored-glasses when-it's-not-my-country" and "Sherritt-
must-own-the-entire-island-now".
No desmayas nunca, mijo... impressive :)
Carin~os,
Vivian
Victoria Baschzok
<h.de...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
Really? Where exactly did this take place? You know, Harry, that in order
for you to "deal" with my material you have to somehow transport the
debates taking place behind your fevered brow on to your computer, then
post them to Usenet, you Usenut.
You didn't even responde to the last post except for one line out of one
paragraph. Poor Harry.
Now, in the first place, I use a multiplicity of sources from the Wall
Street Journal to more fringe publications. However, I don't know the last
time I referred to CAQ, and not in this thread. Just look in the tread we
are both participating in. In the Hitler and Pinochet thread I refer to
books on the subject, from David Schmitz to Michael Leffler or even
transcripts from the Nürnberg war crimes tribunal that you can get on-line
for verification (since I know you don't read books). Now those are books
by experts who are respected and I quote them and their books. Nothing up
Pepe Pan
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7cqgtn$7oq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> > Cuba.
> Details, details!
Dear Zunti,
Do your own homework, but if you're so ignorant of all things Cuban as it
seems, you better do the homework *before* sinking deeper in ridicule....
> > I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that regime.
> > If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your utter
> > ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
> > replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
>
> Are you now indicating you are the type who likes to have the heads of people
> who disagree with you politically removed? You'd have done real well in San
> Salvador...
I'm merely indicating you might need a brain replacement to get rid of your
seemingly terminal idiocy. I'm also indicating you're not the first clueless
Canadian to come here trying to give us lessons about Cuba and be our little
object of amusement for a while.
Pepe Pan
W E L C O M E B A C K !!!!!!!!!
What a nice surprise to have you here again. Unfortunately, today I dissapear
for a couple of weeks I'll be travelling. I very much look forward to see you
here again when I come back.
Saludos Saludos Saludos Saludos Saludos
Pepe Pan
In article <36F1E9...@bellsouth.net>,
vivi...@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Pepe Pan wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that regime.
> > If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your utter
> > ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
> > replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
> >
> > Saludos.
> > Pepe Pan
>
> Ahhhhh, Pepe.. Con pena observo que durante mi ausencia no se ha
> encontrado la cura para ese espantoso mal *tan* padecido por los
> foraneos ignorantes: "drinking-rum-from-the-bottelitis".
>
> Lamentablemente, a muchos canadienses el primero se les
> "complica" con los otros requete males: "looking-through-rose
> colored-glasses when-it's-not-my-country" and "Sherritt-
> must-own-the-entire-island-now".
>
> No desmayas nunca, mijo... impressive :)
>
> Carin~os,
>
> Vivian
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Vivian Perez
Como te vamos a extran~ar - pero el resto del "pack"
of hienas y yo "will hold down the fort"... hurry back!
:)
Vivian
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <7cs5oe$l3m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <7cqgtn$7oq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> > > Cuba.
>
> > Details, details!
>
> Dear Zunti,
>
> Do your own homework, but if you're so ignorant of all things Cuban as it
> seems, you better do the homework *before* sinking deeper in ridicule....
I knew you couldn't provide details. AI has documented many attrocities in
various rightwing dictatorships in Central and South America... I have yet to
seem them declare Cuba a prison state.
> > > I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that
regime.
> > > If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your
utter
> > > ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
> > > replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
> > Are you now indicating you are the type who likes to have the heads of
> >people who disagree with you politically removed? You'd have done real well
> >in San Salvador...
> I'm merely indicating you might need a brain replacement to get rid of your
> seemingly terminal idiocy.
The term "head" is not synonomous with the term "brain."
>I'm also indicating you're not the first clueless Canadian to come here trying
>to give us lessons about Cuba and be our little object of amusement for a
>while.
So what did your family do in Cuba before you had to leave?
> Saludos.
> Pepe Pan
Harry Delaney
Pepe Pan wrote:
> In article <7cs5oe$l3m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <7cqgtn$7oq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
> > > Cuba.
>
> > Details, details!
>
> Dear Zunti,
>
> Do your own homework, but if you're so ignorant of all things Cuban as it
> seems, you better do the homework *before* sinking deeper in ridicule....
Thats OK, Pepe. I did his homework for him. The URL which will help Canadian
apologists for Castro. It will provide the facts about Cuba, not the bullshit
provided by "Covert Action Quarterly".
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/humrts.html
Exactly how pathetic does someone have to be to make apologists for a blood thirsty
foreign dictator, to sweep away and refuse to acknowledge hardship and mortal danger
they will never have to face, and feel good about it? I guess we will never know,
Pepe.
HD
zu...@my-dejanews.com
You should know pretty well, your pathetic hero Maggie Thatcher did exactly
that.
Luis ORTEGA
viv wrote
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > What soviet occupation of Cuba?
> >
> > Where have you been for the last 40 years ?
>
> Obviously in some dimension that runs parallel to your own. Perhaps you should
> return to yours, and your statement might be greeted with a little less
> incredulity.
You are obviously sparring in the dark. You make no sense with that
statement in trying to skip the fact of Soviet occupation.
Agur,
Oscar
zu...@my-dejanews.com
occurred.
J.S.
Muerta literalmente ,no.
Pero politicamente sigue siendo tan cadaver como cuando se fue.
Lo de vieja, va por tu cuenta. Para fiestas de quince, ya no esta.
El 20 Mar 1999 07:48:20 GMT, "Luis ORTEGA" <eq...@dial.pipex.com>
escribio:
>me agrada mucho ver que no estas muerta, vieja.
>
>viv wrote
>> Ahhhhh,
********
Cordialmente
Jorge Sendón
jorg...@satlink.com
Ciudad Autonoma de Buenos Aires
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > You are obviously sparring in the dark. You make no sense with that
> > statement in trying to skip the fact of Soviet occupation.
> You make no sense by alleging as fact, the occurrence of something that
never
> occurred.
I again would like to ask where were you the last 40 years. Do you think
the Soviets were just a bunch of tourists basking in the tropics ?
Agur,
Oscar
wilfre...@ems.att.com
"Luis ORTEGA" <eq...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> me agrada mucho ver que no estas muerta, vieja.
>
> viv wrote
> > encontrado la cura para ese espantoso mal *tan* padecido por los
> > foraneos ignorantes: "drinking-rum-from-the-bottelitis".
>
>
De vieja nada!.
Fred
Pedro Martori
The proposition that this guy made to us, implying cuban fefugees or
exiled, should be reverted or asked to him : why don't he goes to Cuba for
not two years, but only two months ????
Then in answer to his ignorance about the conditions imposed to cubans
on
the island, I should point to the thousands of cubans ,tens of
thousands that
are all over the world INCLUDED Central America,South America and North
America as well as in Europe etc.
What about those 150,000 to 200,000 cubans in Venezuela ?
In Mexico, in Guatemala,Dom.Republic,Brazil,Peru,Argentina,etc.
are they inclined or willing to go back to Cuba ?????
Or are most of them doing fine and well in those << third world >>
countries ???
This put his argument down to the basement...
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote in message
<7cp0dn$v2t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7colsk$luj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> Let's do an experiment. We'll take away all your money and send you to
>> Managua, or San Salvador. Stay there for two years, and come back and see
if
>> you can still talk about the fascism of Cuba.
>>
>
>Newflash for you, did it! My family left Cuba with nothing, not a penny,
>went to Spain made a successful living there, then came to the US and made
a
>successful living here too. Some family members went to PR and made a
living
>there, and a whole branch of the family did the same in Costa Rica.
>
>But I see your point, you are one of those who look at the situation in
Cuba
>and whine about how much worse it could be, a typical reaction from one who
>has no personal connections to the island. I on the other hand have a more
>personal reaction to problems in Cuba.
>
>BTW, are you saying that castro's government is not fascist? Let's see
it's
>certainly nationalist, it crushes all dissent, all power is on the hands of
a
>single charismatic leader, it emphasizes the state over the individual.
>Which of those characteristics are not fascist in nature?
>
>> When you exiles post, one question always comes to mind? Did you flee or
were
>> you kicked out?
>>
>
>Is there a difference between the two? Whether one leaves by choice to flee
>from oppression, or is forced by an oppressive government to leave seems
like
>a rather thin distinction.
>
>
Pedro Martori
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cs5oe$l3m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >
>> > I know people who have lived in Cuba, refugees from Chile. They had no
>> > complaints.
And I know for a fact that huge numbers of those chileans <<refugees>>
to Cuba left Cuba within the first and secoind year in Cuba...others
left
later ...after they took advantages of the cuban regime ...such as
housing
that were denied to cubans in need,very much needs ! Studying in cuban
universities for free and then after graduation left to Canada,Spain,or
other CAPITALISTS nations....no wonder Kastro called them TRAITORS
AND DIDN'T TRUST THEM AT ALL !!!
About tortures and executions in Cuba by kastro's regime you should go
to the UNITED Nations web and seek the information under the Human Rights
Comission
and search for the Violations of HRights..several well documented,and
full
of testimonies and accusations are found in the HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS
REPORTS ON CUBA.
Other sources are available and one of them is an indirect report or
recount
of the executions and tortures etc. Go to Dejanews and search for :
<< DIARIO DE UN ALZADO >>
DOZENS OF BOOKS HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED ON THE SUBJECT.
The collection of books by Cnel, Esteban Beruvides is one of the best
sources
with a huge collection of data taken from newspapers all around he
world about Cuban affairs and issues.
>> Dear Zunti,
>>
>> I know some Americans that were in Chile under Pinochet and have no
>> complaints. But see....I'm not stupid enough as to think their opinion
>> reflects the true situation.
>
>Good for you.
>
>> > I also know people who have been tortured and had family killed in
>> > El Salvador.
>>
>> I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
>> Cuba.
>
>Details, details!
>
>> > If you think your complaints against the cuban government don't
>> > pale in signficance, you should give your head a shake.
>
>> I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that
regime.
>> If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your
utter
>> ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
>> replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
>
>Are you now indicating you are the type who likes to have the heads of
people
>who disagree with you politically removed? You'd have done real well in San
>Salvador...
>> Saludos.
>> Pepe Pan
zu...@my-dejanews.com
Yeah, I remember when they rolled the tanks into Havanna. BTW, have you guys
left Grenada and Panama yet? Have you satisfied your World Court Judgement
debt to Nicaragua?
> Agur,
> Oscar
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > I again would like to ask where were you the last 40 years. Do you think
> > the Soviets were just a bunch of tourists basking in the tropics ?
>
> Yeah, I remember when they rolled the tanks into Havanna. BTW, have you guys
> left Grenada and Panama yet? Have you satisfied your World Court Judgement
> debt to Nicaragua?
They didn;t roll the tanks into "Havanna", they brought them with the help
of their puppet tyrant. And by asking if the US left Grenada and Panama,
you just prove where you have been for the last 40 years...
Agur,
Oscar
Saskatchewan Internet News Ltd.
<pmar...@globalserve.net> wrote:
>
> The proposition that this guy made to us, implying cuban fefugees or
>exiled, should be reverted or asked to him : why don't he goes to Cuba for
>not two years, but only two months ????
Pay for the plane ticket and I'll head there in a minute to conduct
my own fact finding mission. If I don't post here again, you'll then
know I'll have been arrested, and I'll have learned the hardway. OTOH,
if I come back and post again... I'll truthfully report my findings.
Now how many of you Florida Cubans would take me up on my deal?
> Then in answer to his ignorance about the conditions imposed to cubans
>on
> the island, I should point to the thousands of cubans ,tens of
>thousands that
> are all over the world INCLUDED Central America,South America and North
> America as well as in Europe etc.
Why stop at tens of thousands? Why not exagerate your figures to
include the billions?
> What about those 150,000 to 200,000 cubans in Venezuela ?
> In Mexico, in Guatemala,Dom.Republic,Brazil,Peru,Argentina,etc.
> are they inclined or willing to go back to Cuba ?????
Not if they fled so they wouldn't lose any of the wealth they had
accumulated.
> Or are most of them doing fine and well in those << third world >>
>countries ???
> This put his argument down to the basement...
Not quite. Imelda Marco went home to the Phillipines and contested an
election with a promise that she would... if victorious, give some of
her husband's estate to the poor. Of course she had to be victorious
so she could unfreeze the assets... iow, she had nothing to lose. Most
of the Cubans who fled would not be in the same boat.
>>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
>
liberal representative democracies are rarely either.
Saskatchewan Internet News Ltd.
<pmar...@globalserve.net> wrote:
>
>zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7cs5oe$l3m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>In article <7cqgtn$7oq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> Pepe Pan <pep...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I know people who have lived in Cuba, refugees from Chile. They had no
>>> > complaints.
>===============>>
>
> And I know for a fact that huge numbers of those chileans <<refugees>>
> to Cuba left Cuba within the first and secoind year in Cuba...others
>left
> later ...after they took advantages of the cuban regime ...such as
>housing
> that were denied to cubans in need,very much needs ! Studying in cuban
> universities for free and then after graduation left to Canada,Spain,or
> other CAPITALISTS nations....no wonder Kastro called them TRAITORS
> AND DIDN'T TRUST THEM AT ALL !!!
Yes, I know of this criticism.
> About tortures and executions in Cuba by kastro's regime you should go
>to the UNITED Nations web and seek the information under the Human Rights
>Comission
> and search for the Violations of HRights..several well documented,and
>full
> of testimonies and accusations are found in the HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS
> REPORTS ON CUBA.
Can you supply the URL. I'll have a look.
> Other sources are available and one of them is an indirect report or
>recount
> of the executions and tortures etc. Go to Dejanews and search for :
> << DIARIO DE UN ALZADO >>
> DOZENS OF BOOKS HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED ON THE SUBJECT.
> The collection of books by Cnel, Esteban Beruvides is one of the best
>sources
> with a huge collection of data taken from newspapers all around he
>world about Cuban affairs and issues.
Articles about Cuba in the capitalist press would be as worthy of
trust as a fox in a chickencoop.
>
>>> Dear Zunti,
>>>
>>> I know some Americans that were in Chile under Pinochet and have no
>>> complaints. But see....I'm not stupid enough as to think their opinion
>>> reflects the true situation.
>>
>>Good for you.
>>
>>> > I also know people who have been tortured and had family killed in
>>> > El Salvador.
>>>
>>> I know hundreds of people who have been tortured and had family killed in
>>> Cuba.
>>
>>Details, details!
>>
>>> > If you think your complaints against the cuban government don't
>>> > pale in signficance, you should give your head a shake.
>>
>>> I don't *think*, I *know*, for I'm Cuban and have *lived* under that
>regime.
>>> If you think your second hand "knowledge" of other countries and your
>utter
>>> ignorance on Cuba will impress us you should give your head a
>>> replacement....we have had way to many ignorants here before.
>>
>>Are you now indicating you are the type who likes to have the heads of
>people
>>who disagree with you politically removed? You'd have done real well in San
>>Salvador...
>>> Saludos.
>>> Pepe Pan
>>>
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
Teresita wrote:
> Pay for the plane ticket and I'll head there in a minute to conduct
> my own fact finding mission. If I don't post here again, you'll then
> know I'll have been arrested, and I'll have learned the hardway. OTOH,
> if I come back and post again... I'll truthfully report my findings.
>
Typical leftist, always looking for a hand out.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <36f87775....@news.dlcwest.com>,
> Teresita wrote:
> > Pay for the plane ticket and I'll head there in a minute to conduct
> > my own fact finding mission. If I don't post here again, you'll then
> > know I'll have been arrested, and I'll have learned the hardway. OTOH,
> > if I come back and post again... I'll truthfully report my findings.
> >
>
> Typical leftist, always looking for a hand out.
Typical rightist. Call them on a bet and they go running.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7darqa$3ln$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > In article <36f87775....@news.dlcwest.com>,
> > Teresita wrote:
> > > Pay for the plane ticket and I'll head there in a minute to conduct
> > > my own fact finding mission. If I don't post here again, you'll then
> > > know I'll have been arrested, and I'll have learned the hardway. OTOH,
> > > if I come back and post again... I'll truthfully report my findings.
> > >
> >
> > Typical leftist, always looking for a hand out.
>
> Typical rightist. Call them on a bet and they go running.
What bet? Can you point in the thread where someone said they would fund
such a trip?
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7dce94$hhj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <7darqa$3ln$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > In article <36f87775....@news.dlcwest.com>,
> > > Teresita wrote:
> > > > Pay for the plane ticket and I'll head there in a minute to conduct
> > > > my own fact finding mission. If I don't post here again, you'll then
> > > > know I'll have been arrested, and I'll have learned the hardway. OTOH,
> > > > if I come back and post again... I'll truthfully report my findings.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Typical leftist, always looking for a hand out.
> >
> > Typical rightist. Call them on a bet and they go running.
>
> What bet? Can you point in the thread where someone said they would fund
> such a trip?
Reread the thread. Even you should be able to figure it out.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
Even me? You mean even an idiot could figure it out? If so you probably
figured it out long before, so please enlighten me.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7ddlb8$ink$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Reread the thread. Even you should be able to figure it out.
> >
>
> Even me? You mean even an idiot could figure it out? If so you probably
> figured it out long before, so please enlighten me.
Idiots take longer to figure things out than intelligent people which is why
we call them idiot. Anyway, the original proposal was to divest send some
smart mouthed Florida Cuban of all their assets and money, and send them to
Managua or San Salvador for two years, and see if they still come back
complaining.
The act of "sending them" implies that this portion of the expense would be
paid. Some other smart mouthed Florida Cuban suggested the matter should be
reversed, and his opposition be sent to Cuba for two months. Those who think
correctly that Cuba isn't hell on earth, and that Fidel isn't the evil you
Florida Cubans make him out to be took the poster up on the challenge.
Then you posted some stupid comment about leftists always wanting handouts. It
looks more like a case of backing out of a bet to me.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7ddlb8$ink$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Reread the thread. Even you should be able to figure it out.
> >
>
> Even me? You mean even an idiot could figure it out? If so you probably
> figured it out long before, so please enlighten me.
>
BTW, as a corollary to the previous post, I certainly figured it out long
before you, since I am not an idiot.
Deneen Sparks
alt.thebird:
>In article <7ddu66$rec$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> In article <7ddlb8$ink$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >
>> > Reread the thread. Even you should be able to figure it out.
>> >
>>
>> Even me? You mean even an idiot could figure it out? If so you probably
>> figured it out long before, so please enlighten me.
>>
>
>BTW, as a corollary to the previous post, I certainly figured it out long
>before you, since I am not an idiot.
For myself, I claim no particular intelligence!
--
Peace, news:alt.thebird
Deneen Sparks, editor, THE GREAT SPECKLED BIRD
http://thebird.org banners: http://thebird.org/links/banner.html
It's almost the millennium. Do you know where your peace flag is?
http://thebird.org/store/flags
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The act of "sending them" implies that this portion of the expense would be
> paid. Some other smart mouthed Florida Cuban suggested the matter should be
> reversed, and his opposition be sent to Cuba for two months. Those who think
> correctly that Cuba isn't hell on earth, and that Fidel isn't the evil you
> Florida Cubans make him out to be took the poster up on the challenge.
>
Are you still on that kick about Cuba and castro being so good? Did you ever
respond as to what aspect of castro's government was not fascist?
> Then you posted some stupid comment about leftists always wanting handouts. It
> looks more like a case of backing out of a bet to me.
Would you please post where in the thread I said I would pay someone's way
to visit Cuba, 'cause if you can't then maybe the label "stupid comment"
might apply more to your side of the aisle.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> BTW, as a corollary to the previous post, I certainly figured it out long
> before you, since I am not an idiot.
>
What can I say, the fact the you feel the need to post this clarification
speaks volumes about your self-assurance and intelligence level. Sorry about
your self-esteem problems zunti, with time and patience you might get over
it.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
Hi deneen, looks like we might be caught in another cross-post war again.
BTW how's frosty doing these days?
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7de671$2uu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > The act of "sending them" implies that this portion of the expense would be
> > paid. Some other smart mouthed Florida Cuban suggested the matter should be
> > reversed, and his opposition be sent to Cuba for two months. Those who think
> > correctly that Cuba isn't hell on earth, and that Fidel isn't the evil you
> > Florida Cubans make him out to be took the poster up on the challenge.
> >
>
> Are you still on that kick about Cuba and castro being so good? Did you ever
> respond as to what aspect of castro's government was not fascist?
Yes, and what aspect of Castro's government fascist?
> > Then you posted some stupid comment about leftists always wanting handouts.
It
> > looks more like a case of backing out of a bet to me.
> Would you please post where in the thread I said I would pay someone's way
> to visit Cuba, 'cause if you can't then maybe the label "stupid comment"
> might apply more to your side of the aisle.
Did someone make the comment that the Managua/San Salvador senario should be
tried with Cuba or did they not? Whether you said it or not is irrelevant.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7de690$2vf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > BTW, as a corollary to the previous post, I certainly figured it out long
> > before you, since I am not an idiot.
> >
>
> What can I say, the fact the you feel the need to post this clarification
> speaks volumes about your self-assurance and intelligence level. Sorry about
> your self-esteem problems zunti, with time and patience you might get over
> it.
Is the need to psychoanalyze someone a character defect? ;-(
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Are you still on that kick about Cuba and castro being so good? Did you ever
> > respond as to what aspect of castro's government was not fascist?
>
> Yes, and what aspect of Castro's government fascist?
>
Let's go down the list:
1. castrism and fascism both exalt nation over the individual.
2. both stand for centralizd autocratic government
3. both are headed by a dictatorial leader
4. both exhibit severe economic and social regimentation
5. both forcibly suppress opposition
Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so please expand, this
might turn out to be an interesting discussion.
> Did someone make the comment that the Managua/San Salvador senario should be
> tried with Cuba or did they not? Whether you said it or not is irrelevant.
It became relevant when you accussed me of reneging on a "bet". I take it
you are ready now to retract that portion of your statement?
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7dgp1t$b53$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > Are you still on that kick about Cuba and castro being so good? Did you
ever
> > > respond as to what aspect of castro's government was not fascist?
> >
> > Yes, and what aspect of Castro's government fascist?
> >
>
> Let's go down the list:
>
> 1. castrism and fascism both exalt nation over the individual.
> 2. both stand for centralizd autocratic government
> 3. both are headed by a dictatorial leader
> 4. both exhibit severe economic and social regimentation
> 5. both forcibly suppress opposition
> Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so please expand, this
> might turn out to be an interesting discussion.
2. Is of dubious validity.
4. Fascism does this to protect the ruling class. Castroism does it to
ensure that everyone eats, and that you Florida Cubans don't get to run your
brothels there.
5. Fascism brutally surpressed its leftist and socialist opposition, so
your definition is incomplete.
> > Did someone make the comment that the Managua/San Salvador senario should be
> > tried with Cuba or did they not? Whether you said it or not is irrelevant.
>
> It became relevant when you accussed me of reneging on a "bet". I take it
> you are ready now to retract that portion of your statement?
In a word, "NO!"
Must I type it out slowly? The comment was "typical rightist reneging on a
bet." You took issue with the fact that the reversed senario was taken up, by
commenting "typical leftist wanting a hand-out." You obviously weren't
prepared to take up the challenge that you or one of your Florida Cubans had
issued.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > 1. castrism and fascism both exalt nation over the individual.
> > 2. both stand for centralizd autocratic government
> > 3. both are headed by a dictatorial leader
> > 4. both exhibit severe economic and social regimentation
> > 5. both forcibly suppress opposition
>
> > Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so please expand, this
> > might turn out to be an interesting discussion.
>
> 2. Is of dubious validity.
Are you serious? castro's goverment isnot centralized? That's the basic
tenet of communism, centralized government. And not autocratic? It'e
becoming more and more obvious that your acquiantance with Cuba is distant
and superficial. Sorry about that zunti, but like it or not castro's
government is a totalitarian dictatorship, based in an autocratic model.
> 4. Fascism does this to protect the ruling class. Castroism does it to
> ensure that everyone eats, and that you Florida Cubans don't get to run your
> brothels there.
So you're down to this level. Sadder and sadder, and here I though that you
were willing to engage in rational discussion, oh well I guess you couldn't
argue the points and must resort to fantasies.
> 5. Fascism brutally surpressed its leftist and socialist opposition, so
> your definition is incomplete.
>
And castroism brutally suppressed *all* opposition fomr the left and from the
right. So once again, if these are your arguments *in toto*, and I do mean
*in toto* both in the Cuban and the latin sense, then you must agree with me
that castro's government is fascist. And being the good leftist that you are
I expect you to raise your voice against it.
> >
> > It became relevant when you accussed me of reneging on a "bet". I take it
> > you are ready now to retract that portion of your statement?
>
> In a word, "NO!"
>
> Must I type it out slowly? The comment was "typical rightist reneging on a
> bet." You took issue with the fact that the reversed senario was taken up, by
> commenting "typical leftist wanting a hand-out." You obviously weren't
> prepared to take up the challenge that you or one of your Florida Cubans had
> issued.
>
Keep typing at this speed, but read what you write, and if it helps read it
out loud. A "Florida Cuban" said something, *I* said something else, *you*
then accused me of backing out on a bet a *Florida Cuban* made. Unless
you're saying that all *Florida Cubans* are alike in your eyes, do you
realize the racist nature of that statement?
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7di6ha$i0t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > 1. castrism and fascism both exalt nation over the individual.
> > > 2. both stand for centralizd autocratic government
> > > 3. both are headed by a dictatorial leader
> > > 4. both exhibit severe economic and social regimentation
> > > 5. both forcibly suppress opposition
> >
> > > Do you disagree with any of these statements? If so please expand, this
> > > might turn out to be an interesting discussion.
> >
> > 2. Is of dubious validity.
>
> Are you serious? castro's goverment isnot centralized? That's the basic
> tenet of communism, centralized government. And not autocratic? It'e
> becoming more and more obvious that your acquiantance with Cuba is distant
> and superficial. Sorry about that zunti, but like it or not castro's
> government is a totalitarian dictatorship, based in an autocratic model.
You can make the claim... that he operated an autocratic government with a
stalinist model, centrally planned economy but here is some news or you:
Fascist governments weren't that centralized.
> > 4. Fascism does this to protect the ruling class. Castroism does it to
> > ensure that everyone eats, and that you Florida Cubans don't get to run your
> > brothels there.
> So you're down to this level. Sadder and sadder, and here I though that you
> were willing to engage in rational discussion, oh well I guess you couldn't
> argue the points and must resort to fantasies.
I thought that was rational discussion. Why no rebutal?
> > 5. Fascism brutally surpressed its leftist and socialist opposition, so
> > your definition is incomplete.
> And castroism brutally suppressed *all* opposition fomr the left and from the
> right. So once again, if these are your arguments *in toto*, and I do
> mean *in toto* both in the Cuban and the latin sense, then you must agree with
> me that castro's government is fascist.
> And being the good leftist that you are
> I expect you to raise your voice against it.
How many socialists and communists has Castro sent to the ovens? They were a
higher priority on the nazi's hit list than Jews or Gypsies.
> > > It became relevant when you accussed me of reneging on a "bet". I take it
> > > you are ready now to retract that portion of your statement?
> > In a word, "NO!"
> > Must I type it out slowly? The comment was "typical rightist reneging on a
> > bet." You took issue with the fact that the reversed senario was taken up,
by
> > commenting "typical leftist wanting a hand-out." You obviously weren't
> > prepared to take up the challenge that you or one of your Florida Cubans had
> > issued.
> Keep typing at this speed, but read what you write, and if it helps read it
> out loud. A "Florida Cuban" said something, *I* said something else, *you*
> then accused me of backing out on a bet a *Florida Cuban* made. Unless
> you're saying that all *Florida Cubans* are alike in your eyes, do you
> realize the racist nature of that statement?
It was a generalization made in the same vein as the generalization you made
about leftists. Do you now see Forida Cubans as a race... are they
now a self-identifying race?
The comment may not have been charitable... but it was no less charitable than
your comment about leftists... and it was hardly racist.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> You can make the claim... that he operated an autocratic government with a
> stalinist model, centrally planned economy but here is some news or you:
> Fascist governments weren't that centralized.
>
You can change your argument now, but you have yet to refute a single point I
made about castrism and fascism.
> I thought that was rational discussion. Why no rebutal?
>
What would you like me to say zunti, call you an idiot for the crack about
brothels? That comment shows that 1. you know nothing about Cuban history,
2. you are not intersted in rational discussion, 3. you know even less about
the nature of castro's government.
> How many socialists and communists has Castro sent to the ovens? They were a
> higher priority on the nazi's hit list than Jews or Gypsies.
>
Newsflash for you genius, hitler did not invent fascism, look up the word
some day, it will do you good. As for the number of people castro has "sent
to the ovens", educate yourself on the history of cuba before and after
castro, you will see that castro has far outdone the crimes of any
post-colonial ruler in Cuba.
> It was a generalization made in the same vein as the generalization you made
> about leftists. Do you now see Forida Cubans as a race... are they
> now a self-identifying race?
>
Don't shift gears zunti, you were the one who started spouting about "Florida
Cubans", it's obvious then that you view them as a distinct and separate
group from other Cubans and or Floridians.
> The comment may not have been charitable... but it was no less charitable than
> your comment about leftists... and it was hardly racist.
>
So your comment was a joke?
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ivanhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In article <7do9kg$d9h$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > You can make the claim... that he operated an autocratic government with a
> > stalinist model, centrally planned economy but here is some news or you:
> > Fascist governments weren't that centralized.
> >
>
> You can change your argument now, but you have yet to refute a single point I
> made about castrism and fascism.
I've shown you don't know what fascism is, and therefore your argument is not
to be given credence.
> > I thought that was rational discussion. Why no rebutal?
>
> What would you like me to say zunti, call you an idiot for the crack about
> brothels? That comment shows that 1. you know nothing about Cuban history,
Let me see - you think that under Baptista there were no casinos or brothels
and all the peasants got enough to eat and "free" education and health care?
> 2. you are not intersted in rational discussion, 3. you know even less about
> the nature of castro's government.
Pay for the trip...
> > How many socialists and communists has Castro sent to the ovens? They were a
> > higher priority on the nazi's hit list than Jews or Gypsies.
> Newsflash for you genius, hitler did not invent fascism, look up the word
> some day, it will do you good.
That isn't a news flash. But this might be for you: Hitler came to power
promoting "law and order" and a hatred of undesireables like communists and
socialists.
>As for the number of people castro has
"sent
> to the ovens", educate yourself on the history of cuba before and after
> castro, you will see that castro has far outdone the crimes of any
> post-colonial ruler in Cuba.
I think not. And compared with post-colonial rulers in the various central
American states he looks dam good. So your family lost its land and
priviledge... too !@#!@# bad.
> > It was a generalization made in the same vein as the generalization you
made
> > about leftists. Do you now see Forida Cubans as a race... are they
> > now a self-identifying race?
> Don't shift gears zunti, you were the one who started spouting about "Florida
> Cubans", it's obvious then that you view them as a distinct and separate
> group from other Cubans and or Floridians.
And they are, in a similar vein that English Montrealers are different from
the inhabitants of Ontario or Quebec, or in the sense that the German Suisse
are a distinct group from the Italian Suisse. Or are you now trying to
advance the position that you are not distinct from the Cubans who live in
Cuba or the Floridians who do not share your history and nationality.
> > The comment may not have been charitable... but it was no less charitable
than
> > your comment about leftists... and it was hardly racist.
> So your comment was a joke?
Talk about efforts to "shift gears." Do you or do you not see Florida Cubans
as a race... are they now a self-identifying race or are they not? You can
apologize for the racism claim any time you see fit.
ivanhe...@yahoo.com
zu...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I've shown you don't know what fascism is, and therefore your argument is not
> to be given credence.
>
How exacly have you shown that zunti? Would you care to review the following
definition of fascism from Webster's and tell me where I have misquoted it:
Main Entry: fas·cism Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si- Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin
fascis bundle & fasces fasces Date: 1921 1 often capitalized : a political
philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation
and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized
autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and
social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency
toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early
instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
> Let me see - you think that under Baptista there were no casinos or brothels
> and all the peasants got enough to eat and "free" education and health care?
>
The name was batista zunti. I'll have to give you fair warning here, you're
coming across as more disinformed with every post, try reading a book or two
about Cuba before you go on.
BTW, Cuba's population in '58 was 75% urban, so there weren't a whole lot of
peasants. And education and health care were available to most, even if you
were destitute. How do I know you ask? To say that my family was not rich
is a gross understatemnt, my grandfather worked in the local sugar mill,
seasonal work of course, and yet he still managed to raise 5 children, and
those who wanted to, my father and his yougest brother, went on to graduate
from the university, way back in '55.
>
> Pay for the trip...
>
Since when is physical presence required for knowledge? If that's the case
then you really ought to stop posting in this group, 'cause you ain't never
been to Cuba, you ain't never lived under fascism, and you ain't never lived
under communism. Stop looking for a handout and do some research.
> That isn't a news flash. But this might be for you: Hitler came to power
> promoting "law and order" and a hatred of undesireables like communists and
> socialists.
>
It's been said that a thread is dead when hitler gets brought up, this is the
second time you do so, I'll skip it this time if you can tell me how that
statement is relevant to the discussion.
> I think not. And compared with post-colonial rulers in the various central
> American states he looks dam good. So your family lost its land and
> priviledge... too !@#!@# bad.
>
Hey genius, I said "post-colonial ruler in *Cuba*". If you want to discuss
oither american states--do you mean like the dictator of Rhode Island? Or
Ontario?
BTW, where do you get the idea that my family had any land and or privilege
in Cuba? Your prejudices and biases are showing again zunti. Think before
you post bud, things are looking bad for you.
> And they are, in a similar vein that English Montrealers are different from
> the inhabitants of Ontario or Quebec, or in the sense that the German Suisse
> are a distinct group from the Italian Suisse. Or are you now trying to
> advance the position that you are not distinct from the Cubans who live in
> Cuba or the Floridians who do not share your history and nationality.
>
Are you saying that *all* english montrealers are alike? 'Cause if not then
your statement about "Florida Cubans" is nothing more than a not too bright
generalization, based I would guess on nothing more than your prejudices and
without the influence of any personal knowledge. But then again, I had
already guessed that about you.
> Talk about efforts to "shift gears." Do you or do you not see Florida Cubans
> as a race... are they now a self-identifying race or are they not? You can
> apologize for the racism claim any time you see fit.
>
Are you serious? "Florida Cubans" a race? A "self-identifying race"? My,
my zunti, I thought that you were making yourself look bad before, but this
is a new low. Think before you post man.