RED-GREEN ALLIANCE vs. BIG RIGHT
Steven Kaasgaard
parts of its foundation into one formidable force
which they call the "United Alternative"
Hmmmmm?
The Left in Canada must also realize the bounty at stake
left to drift away because of splintering of movements
and special interest groups the left consists of.
Germany recently elected an alliance government between
the Social Democrats and the Green Party.
In Saskatchewan there is a new party called the New
Green Alliance currently organizing for a run in the
provincial election...
Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
(Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
Steven
--
James Goneaux
wrote:
>Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
>(Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
>Steven
Well, the "left", as you put it, now represented solely by the NDP,
gets about 15% of the vote. The Greens are off the map, but lets give
them 1%.
That means you could just about beat the Rhinos.
BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
Any other ideas?
Saskatchewan Internet News Ltd.
Goneaux) wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:02:36 GMT, dc...@torfree.net (Steven Kaasgaard)
>wrote:
>
>>Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
>>(Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
>>Steven
>
>Well, the "left", as you put it, now represented solely by the NDP,
>gets about 15% of the vote. The Greens are off the map, but lets give
>them 1%.
>
>That means you could just about beat the Rhinos.
There are a lot of people out there who won't vote because they find
that no-one is appealing. I'm among that number. The provincial NDP
might as well rename itself the less incompetent PC's, and the feds
have been almost as much of a sell-out: when they aren't peddling
feminazi material, their peddling pay raised for public sector
employees and a tougher attitude towards criminals - polices which
just raise the level of distain for them.
Perhaps with a red/green alliance the reds and the greens can affect
the policies of the sell-out dems and at least make themselves
somewhat progressive.
>BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
>
>Any other ideas?
Perhaps we should also move away from the first past the post system,
and to a proportional rep system.
liberal representative democracies are rarely either.
Nick Bowden
> The Right in Canada is surmising joining two mortal enemy
> parts of its foundation into one formidable force
> which they call the "United Alternative"
> Hmmmmm?
> The Left in Canada must also realize the bounty at stake
> left to drift away because of splintering of movements
> and special interest groups the left consists of.
> Germany recently elected an alliance government between
> the Social Democrats and the Green Party.
> In Saskatchewan there is a new party called the New
> Green Alliance currently organizing for a run in the
> provincial election...
> Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
> (Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
> Steven
> --
And this has got to do with aus.politics?
Sheldon Scott
<snip>
The Red Green alliance? Count me in! :-)
I'm pulling for you, Steve - we're all in this together. :-)
Keep your stick on the ice. :-)
Nick Bowden <bow...@uq.net.au> wrote:
>Steven Kaasgaard wrote:
>And this has got to do with aus.politics?
>
About as much as it has to do with can.politics - nothing.
--
): "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" :(
(: Off the monitor, through the modem, nothing but net :)
James Goneaux
Very true. Its probably because of the number of coaliton governments
that have to be formed. Of course, we wouldn't want an Israel or
Italy, either.
But its a step in the right direction...
-----------------------
email: jam...@pathcom.com
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind
and won't change the subject." -- Winston Churchill
Chris J Delanoy
> The Right in Canada is surmising joining two mortal enemy
> parts of its foundation into one formidable force
> which they call the "United Alternative"
Actually, most of us who are actual, principled right-wingers are
quite opposed to the United Alternative farce. It has nothing to
do with any sort of ideology - it has to do with egos and power.
- Chris J Delanoy
--
http://www.ualberta.ca/~cdelanoy/
Supporting a principled Alternative, not a United one.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ivan Satori
>James Goneaux (jam...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
>
>: BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
>
>- Proportional representation is the electoral method in Big 'D'
>- If the 1st past the post system doesn't treat a splintered left
>- with respect..we either change the electoral system or we set our
>- egos aside and dance as one against a collection of fascists and
>- status quo clowns still in polyester
>: Any other ideas?
>- yes every revolution requires em!
>- Thanx Steven
I take it you're not particularly happy with the status quo.
What changes should the revolution bring? (I can probably guess the goals -
what I am asking about is the ways how to make them happen.)
Steven Kaasgaard
: BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
- Proportional representation is the electoral method in Big 'D'
- If the 1st past the post system doesn't treat a splintered left
- with respect..we either change the electoral system or we set our
- egos aside and dance as one against a collection of fascists and
- status quo clowns still in polyester
: Any other ideas?
- yes every revolution requires em!
- Thanx Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote:
: > The Right in Canada is surmising joining two mortal enemy
: > parts of its foundation into one formidable force
: > which they call the "United Alternative"
: > Hmmmmm?
: > The Left in Canada must also realize the bounty at stake
: > left to drift away because of splintering of movements
: > and special interest groups the left consists of.
: > Germany recently elected an alliance government between
: > the Social Democrats and the Green Party.
: > In Saskatchewan there is a new party called the New
: > Green Alliance currently organizing for a run in the
: > provincial election...
: > Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
: > (Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
: > Steven
: > --
: And this has got to do with aus.politics?
* It is the concern of the entire planet when it comes
* to the actions of such a political entity as the Green Party.
* Since we all require clean air,land and water in order to live.
* And the democratic ramifications of Green Politics might be interesting
* if not our only way of surviving through environmental disasters
* left on us by our previous generations.
* Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Actually, most of us who are actual, principled right-wingers are
: quite opposed to the United Alternative farce. It has nothing to
: do with any sort of ideology - it has to do with egos and power.
* You don't know how glad I am to hear you say that!
* folks still fret'n oer simple things like ego and power...
* Every group with a hierarchy seems to have its share
* of stepped on toes though
* The common enemy of the left and the right is hierarchy...
* You think they'll at least agree to that.
* For our Australian viewers the Reform Party in Canada might
* be the equivalent to your "One Nation Party"
* Very Very Right!
* Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: I take it you're not particularly happy with the status quo.
: What changes should the revolution bring? (I can probably guess the goals -
: what I am asking about is the ways how to make them happen.)
* Like the east bloc countries did when breaking up satellite status of
* the Soviet Union. They took over the radio/television and wouldn't
* allow the police and/or military from disrupting the broadcasts.
* Changes this revolution may bring? Hmmm? ..how about a new era
* where money is the weakest measure of success.
* Steven
--
James Goneaux
wrote:
>James Goneaux (jam...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
>
>: BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
>
>- Proportional representation is the electoral method in Big 'D'
>- If the 1st past the post system doesn't treat a splintered left
>- with respect..we either change the electoral system or we set our
>- egos aside and dance as one against a collection of fascists and
>- status quo clowns still in polyester
Er...ok.
Of course, when you lose anyway, I'm sure you'll have an even more
ammunition, as it were, for your revolving....I mean, revololution.
>: Any other ideas?
>- yes every revolution requires em!
>- Thanx Steven
Let me rephrase that: any other ideas that aen't brain dead?
Henrietta K. Thomas
In us.politics, on Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:58:44 GMT, dc...@torfree.net (Steven
Kaasgaard) wrote:
It *still* doesn't belong in aus.politics or us.politics either. If you
want to reach "the whole planet," go to talk.politics in the Big 8
and leave the regionals alone.
Henrietta K. Thomas
us.* hierarchy coordinator
usa...@wwa.com
Buffalo Bill
Thomas) wrote:
>It *still* doesn't belong in aus.politics or us.politics either. If you
>want to reach "the whole planet," go to talk.politics in the Big 8
>and leave the regionals alone.
>
>Henrietta K. Thomas
>us.* hierarchy coordinator
>usa...@wwa.com
>
You're absolutely right Henrietta...had prefixed the rest of his
lunatic fringe nonsense with stuff about sex in hallways or with
cigars, it might be relevant to us.politics. Absolutely, he should
know better than to make a political post in political newsgroups.
Are you really that bored or narrow minded that you **as a news
admin** just had to go to all the trouble of altering newsgroups to
make a public reply to spank someone for something that isn't spam,
albeit in your opinion is off topic for a regional newsgroup?
Maybe we can talk Chris Lewis into publicly spanking every red neck or
clueless Yank that dares post anything to any newsgroups on the
Canadian side of the border. Hell why stop there, since you have such
concern for Australia, maybe Lewis can adopt all of Europe.
Chicago is known as the windy city, and with that huge sucking noise I
hear I think I know why...
ian...@hotmail.com
dc...@torfree.net (Steven Kaasgaard) wrote:
> Chris J Delanoy (cdel...@ualberta.ca) wrote:
>
> : Actually, most of us who are actual, principled right-wingers are
> : quite opposed to the United Alternative farce. It has nothing to
> : do with any sort of ideology - it has to do with egos and power.
I'll see firsthand if it's a farce.
I'm a registered UA delegate. If it
causes a leadership convention later
this year, UA has been worthwhile.
Ian Berg
Yorkton, Saskatchewan, Canada
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/2904
RDovey
actually gaining power. If there was a choice between a coal power plant being
built, and reduced or nonexistent power to a city in winter, which would be
chosen?
Fight for what you believe in, and never give up, for
a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Russell Dovey, Canberra, Australia.
ICQ:11780873 mailto:elau...@iname.com
ewal...@brendarenfarm.com
(RDovey), wrote:
The question is really this: If there was a choice between a smoke
belching, earth polluting, piece-of-shit, coal-burning power boiler, built
and operated by a bunch of care-for-nothing-but-their-own-greed
cocksuckers, and, a modern, all-scrubbers-attached, carefully operated
coal-burning power boiler, replete with sophisticated monitoring equipment,
built and operated with community support and ongoing community input;
which would be chosen by Green party advocates?
Fight for what you believe in, Russell, never consider sensible
alternatives, for the support of a bad idea begins with your own stupidity.
Steven Kaasgaard
: There's something that's always concerned me with regard to Green parties
: actually gaining power. If there was a choice between a coal power plant being
: built, and reduced or nonexistent power to a city in winter, which would be
: chosen?
* Actually we Greens are pretty practical... we'd burn coal but
* have research and development teams looking into alternative energy.
* Set in motion a decentralization of decision making so that dead ends
* like the example you gave above are given the full array of possible
* solutions.Because we need to avoid dangerous centralization of essential
* services like energy or administration/bureaucracy.How we treat
* each other relates alot to how we will eventually treat our
* environment.
: Fight for what you believe in, and never give up, for
: a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
* 100th monkey syndrome..
* still looking for that "global" 100th monkey!
* Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Of course, when you lose anyway, I'm sure you'll have an even more
: ammunition, as it were, for your revolving....I mean, revololution.
* Three cheers for pollution,corporate disregard for human rights
* top down control systems, wage slavery,
* finite resources with no alternative
* plan!
--
James Goneaux
wrote:
>James Goneaux (jam...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
You mean like in Green influenced Germany and Sweden today?
Point: Sweden shuts down a perfectly good, well-running nuclear
reactor. Forced to buy energy from coal-fired plants in Denmark.
Pollution from Denmark flows into Sweden.
Point: Germany commits to shutting down its nuclear industry. How to
replace energy? Why, French nuclear power, of course. Problem is,
France can barely keep up with the supply for France. There is no plan
that allows it to power Germany either.
More coal burning, more CO2. Germany has already asked to have its
goal for the Kyoto Accord scaled back for later in the next decade.
Smooth....
Chris J Delanoy
> * Three cheers for pollution,corporate disregard for human rights
> * top down control systems, wage slavery, finite resources with
> * no alternative plan!
Hip hip hoorah! Hip hip horrah! Hip hip horrah!
Chris J Delanoy
--
http://www.ualberta.ca/~cdelanoy/
Supporting a principled Alternative, not a United one.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ivan Satori
Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
Is this as specific as it gets?
Could you name some of the stronger measures of success that would prevail?
Ivan Satori
>* Actually we Greens are pretty practical... we'd burn coal but
>* have research and development teams looking into alternative energy.
>* Set in motion a decentralization of decision making so that dead ends
>* like the example you gave above are given the full array of possible
>* solutions.Because we need to avoid dangerous centralization of essential
>* services like energy or administration/bureaucracy.How we treat
>* each other relates alot to how we will eventually treat our
>* environment.
Would you have one team for any particular problem or several teams?
What mechanism do you envision for the decentralized decision making?
Steven Kaasgaard
Steven wrote:
: >* Changes this revolution may bring? Hmmm? ..how about a new era
: >* where money is the weakest measure of success.
: Is this as specific as it gets?
: Could you name some of the stronger measures of success that would prevail?
Gee Ian...what more than a conserver society could we expect?
A bottem up decision making system would actually be the determinating
factor in what specific things in society we need to change.
Lets see.. what people could come up with...How about a closed loop
total 100% recycling system..where if there is no way to reintroduce
it into the use stream it won't be created..
A conserver society, a sustainable route for humankind.
Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
How about monthly phone referendums.
Direct Democracy - the stuff we dream about when we listen
to modern day visionaries like Noam Chomsky, Che Guevarra
and Murray Bookchin...
any suggestions... liquid democracy...follows the cracks we
open... for it
Steven
--
Ivan Satori
A piece of text seems to have gotten lost.
My question was NOT WHAT to expect or hope or work for, BUT HOW to achieve
that.
I apologize for shouting, just trying to get the contents through.
Ivan Satori
>: What mechanism do you envision for the decentralized decision making?
>How about monthly phone referendums.
>Direct Democracy - the stuff we dream about when we listen
>to modern day visionaries like Noam Chomsky, Che Guevarra
>and Murray Bookchin...
>any suggestions... liquid democracy...follows the cracks we
>open... for it
>Steven
How would the referendum work:
- who would formulate questions,
- who would moderate the teleconference,
- how the votes would be counted, the process monitored, manipulation with
numbers prevented,
- how carrying through of accepted decision will be organized,
- if proponents of losing proposition wouldn't want to participate in
implementation of the winning proposition, how situations like that would be
resolved,
- how would the participants obtain information they need for making up
their mind in voting:
- what carrying medium would be used (paper, computer screen, etc.),
- in which way the information would be put together - who would do that,
how would the process be monitored,
this kind of question.
Also, some basic ideas about how the production of food would be organized:
- who would work,
- how many hours a day,
- how would the results be distributed,
- who would organize the distribution,
- how fairness of the process would be monitored, ...
... feel free to elaborate on any important organizational aspect I left
out.
Steven Kaasgaard
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:
Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: A piece of text seems to have gotten lost.
: My question was NOT WHAT to expect or hope or work for, BUT HOW to achieve
: that.
: I apologize for shouting, just trying to get the contents through.
- how we achieve these goals would be through a political
- party which incorporates a non-hierarchical structure,entrenching
- decentralism into decision making. This is fundamentally what the
- original "Green Party" was based upon. Recent "traditional"
- party additions to the party crippled its original goals.
- To many of us former Green Party members the current effort
- is "stinkingly normal" not new at all but still somewhat of an
- alternative until we create an Alternative List.
- Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
: >Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: >: Would you have one team for any particular problem or several teams?
: >: What mechanism do you envision for the decentralized decision making?
: >How about monthly phone referendums.
: >Direct Democracy - the stuff we dream about when we listen
: >to modern day visionaries like Noam Chomsky, Che Guevarra
: >and Murray Bookchin...
: >any suggestions... liquid democracy...follows the cracks we
: >open... for it
: >Steven
: How would the referendum work:
: - who would formulate questions,
: - who would moderate the teleconference,
: - how the votes would be counted, the process monitored, manipulation with
: numbers prevented,
: - how carrying through of accepted decision will be organized,
: - if proponents of losing proposition wouldn't want to participate in
: implementation of the winning proposition, how situations like that would be
: resolved,
: - how would the participants obtain information they need for making up
: their mind in voting:
: - what carrying medium would be used (paper, computer screen, etc.),
: - in which way the information would be put together - who would do that,
: how would the process be monitored,
: this kind of question.
: Also, some basic ideas about how the production of food would be organized:
: - who would work,
: - how many hours a day,
: - how would the results be distributed,
: - who would organize the distribution,
: - how fairness of the process would be monitored, ...
: ... feel free to elaborate on any important organizational aspect I left
: out.
- very thorough
- democracies need vigilant questioners
- certainly any referendum system would
- include most of your suggestions...
- however we need to build this pool
- before we consider the contents...eh?
- Steven
--
Ivan Satori
Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
>Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
>: How would the referendum work:
>: - who would formulate questions,
>: - who would moderate the teleconference,
>: - how the votes would be counted, the process monitored, manipulation
with
>- very thorough
>- democracies need vigilant questioners
I would think, this is only half of what is needed, and the easiest one to
get. The other half is a responsive system which
- answers the questions,
- provides corrective measures when the answers are not satisfactory,
- is resistant to abuse.
The last two are a little tricky to get in balance. I would really like to
hear a specific answer about what the system guaranteeing this balance would
look like.
>- certainly any referendum system would
>- include most of your suggestions...
What I am trying to find out is where does this certainty flow from. If
somebody wants me to help building a house, I would like to see some
blueprints, some static calculations, what materials are to be used, cost
estimates and the like. A house that is not properly designed might fall
apart and kill the people inside. If the best and most detailed answer I
would be able to get was "don't worry, everything is going to be just fine",
it is very unlikely I could be persuaded to participate.
I suspect that building a new structure and organization of society might be
even a tad more complex than building a house.
>- however we need to build this pool
>- before we consider the contents...eh?
>- Steven
That's exactly the approach that I find a little worrisome. I am quite sure
that if this was the way environmental assessment of proposals for new
development worked, the developers would be much happier than people worried
about sustainable economics.
Steven Kaasgaard
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:
Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: What I am trying to find out is where does this certainty flow from.
- I suppose we can agree that with certainty capitalism will eat itself
- and that what "system" thereof occurs is to be determined by those
- "in control" It is my belief that we should educate the general public
- of the possibilities available to them. Decentralism would incorporate
- the people back into the real decision making process.
: That's exactly the approach that I find a little worrisome. I am quite sure
: that if this was the way environmental assessment of proposals for new
: development worked, the developers would be much happier than people worried
: about sustainable economics.
- Well Ivan I'm one piece in a large puzzle and I'm not interested
- in leading gumbies out of the puppet state they find themselves
- affixed in. Natural selection has weird ways of correcting us!
- I'm just interested in recipes for a re-democratization
- of the world around me... If some of them follow better for them
- we're only trying to "risk more democracy" We can show em but they
- might not bite!
- I'm hoping to educate the public, appraise them of what their
- current "democracy" lacks and make it clear that we all
- have a role to play. It would be presumptuos of us to take it upon
- ourselves to do all the work for nothing say if what we get
- after what we have now is some totalitarian state.
- If your worried now about the environmental assessment process
- or the current status of our environment...we've already
- passed the fail safe point your worry is in vain...
- We can only work with what the generations from before leave us
- Steven
--