Why Istop.com's web site will never be translated
Jacques E. Bouchard
service in Quebec, I suffered from temporary insanity and e-mailed
Ralph to offer him a barter: in exchange for free service, I would
translate the web site for him and keep it updated. Ralph replied that
he would agree to an exchange for the 1.7mbps service (a $29.95
value!). I choked, swallowed hard, and corrected his aim: I would do it
for my currently 3.5 mbps service at $50 a month, and he would STILL be
getting off extremely cheap in the barter deal!
Ralph, who likes to count his pennies at night, replied cautiously
that he agreed - IF I uploaded the translated site on my web space and
submitted it to public scrutiny, just so he could "make sure". I rolled
my eyes. Fine, whatever. As I had already told him, I did translation
for a living, I wasn't worried about the quality of my work, if he
needed a security blanket so be it.
Over the next week and a half, I took whatever free time I had
from my paying job to work on Istop.com's web site. I used the tools of
the trade and reference material of unimpeachable accuracy. I even
cleaned up some of the original site's horrid sentence structure in the
translation process. Even though I was doing this at ridiculous rates
(the normal rate is 30 cents a word or more), I gave it every bit the
attention I give other paying work.
I finally finished the translation and uploaded it to my web space
before the agreed-upon deadline. I posted a message here inviting all
francophone users to visit it and give comment in English for Ralph's
sake. All comments were excellent, as I fully expected. As I said
before, I do this for a living.
Then Ralph started. Shouldn't "support" be "abroger" in french, he
asks me in e-mail? I scoff, and tell him that "abroger" means "to
repeal". I also add: "BTW, Ralph, you do know that I do this kind of
stuff for a living all the time, right? ;-)"
Next he replies that the word he was thinking about was "abonner",
and that he's sure that's french for "support". I frown and count to
ten before replying to him. "No." I tell him. "You know Ralph, you'll
have to learn to trust me more."
"I'm not saying I don't trust you," Ralph replies, "I'm just
saying I doubt you're perfect. For example, rocler.com uses the word
abonner, and in their case french seems to be their primary language
and english secondary."
At this point I'm thinking "Well fucking duh!" What does Ralph
think *MY* primary language is?! I'm starting to feel more than miffed
at him. Remember, he's getting professional service at DIRT CHEAP
rates.
"Ralph," I write, "with all due respect, I'm the translator and
you're the unilingual anglo. I'm VERY good at what I do. If you want to
second-guess my work every step of the way, it's not going to work. I
agreed to this public evaluation (even though no self-respecting
translator normally would, especially not at the rates I'm charging
you), but this is downright insulting on your part."
And then comes the coup de grace, the straw that breaks the
camel's back, the last drop. Ralph's ultimate reply where he hikes up
his pants, adjusts his bow tie and "tells it like it is".
"You knew the deal and agreed to it." he says. "If you don't like
the arrangement then you can walk away from it. If you think I'm going
to accept your work without question just because you've got an
inflated ego then you're in for a surprise. You seem to be forgetting I
DON'T NEED a french version of the IStop.com. My business has grown to
thousands of customers without it. As I posted on the newsgroups, if I
can offer some level of french support for a small additional cost, I'd
like to do that. If I have to take any shit from you, that's not part
of the deal."
Well fuck you very much, you little piece of shit white trash
redneck. My reply is instantaneous.
"Ralph, screw this shit. If you think for a moment that I need to
take your second-guessing, let me ask you: how the fuck are YOU
qualified to translate? I normally charge 30 cents a word for
translation, and that's standard in the biz. You're getting my
excellent work at slave wages, and you're pissing on it? Fuck this. If
anyone asked you to do work that cheap and then had the gall to
criticize it while knowing fuckall about it, you'd turn purple and have
one of your iffy fits. Yet, here you are treating me the same way.
I'll mail my cheque for the current invoice today. If ever I see you
using even one word that I translated, I will take you to court for
full payment, at current industry prices."
So now you know the level of "business" that Ralph conducts. I
think back to when I was translating the web site and slogging through
the excruciatingb syntax and sentence structure that made it look like
it was originally written by lobotomized monkeys. I had visited Magma's
web site to see how they had structured theirs, and while they have no
french version, I was very much impressed by the level of
professionalism and the quality of the design. It made Itop.com's web
site look below amateurish, and I realized what a fly-by-night, poor
cousin redneck operation Ralph is running. And now, I know the mindset
that is behind it all.
My GF, who's a lawyer, smells blood and wants to sue Ralph for the
actual market value of the translation work, which is several thousand
dollars. At the very least, she wants to go for the estimated value of
the barter deal over two years, since Ralph broke the deal by not
respecting his end (the translation is fine, it's him who balked).
I tell my GF that it's not worth wasting the time, but I'm not
entirely convinced that my mind is made up yet.
jaybee
Kerry Liles
doesn't give a shit whether there is a French page and he obviously doesn't
know enough French to order frites... If you think you have had enough fun
so far, imagine what might happen when Istop rolls out some new wrinkle and
Ralph drives his BMW over your ass pushing you to have the French
translation of that wrinkle done immediately or sooner! ;-)
As brutal as it might be (and it IS brutal) the online translators that
whack a web page into language "X" are more than good enough for Ralph.
I looked at some of your translated pages (although my French is only
marginally better than Ralph's) and I thought they were extremely well done
and obviously represented a lot of work.
C'est la vie. Don't waste another moment of your time...
Thanks for the story though - I had to hang a left to avoid the coffee going
thru my nose and hitting my English keyboard.
KML
Don
the process of considering switching ISP and Istop was first on my list.
This little post has made me reconsider my choice.
Besides, two egos were at work here and I wouldn't be surprised if both of
you were Aries (the Ram) butting heads to see who is the better person.
Time to do some more shopping around I think...
--
Don
"Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns93F1682FA1F0Fja...@206.130.183.196...
Deep Blue
I was unsure about which ISP to switch between Magma and Istop, mainly
because of the price difference, but after this Istop has been removed from
my list.
I was very happy at first to see that Ralph has changed his mind regarding
french customers, but it seems he didn't change after all.
Thanks Jacques for sharing this.
~Deep Blue~
"Don" <sage...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sJl7b.2118$fC5.5...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:sJl7b.2118$fC5.5...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Besides, two egos were at work here and I wouldn't be surprised if
> both of you were Aries (the Ram) butting heads to see who is the
> better person.
I'm Virgo. You know, the perfectionist. I really, REALLY hate
having my translation work second-guessed by a unilingual anglophone. ;-)
jaybee
Jacques E. Bouchard
> My reply is instantaneous.
>
> "Ralph, screw this shit. If you think for a moment that I
> need to
> take your second-guessing, let me ask you: how the fuck are YOU
> qualified to translate? I normally charge 30 cents a word for
> translation, and that's standard in the biz. You're getting my
> excellent work at slave wages, and you're pissing on it? Fuck this.
If
> anyone asked you to do work that cheap and then had the gall to
> criticize it while knowing fuckall about it, you'd turn purple and
> have one of your iffy fits. Yet, here you are treating me the same
> way. I'll mail my cheque for the current invoice today. If
> ever I see you using even one word that I translated, I will take you
> to court for full payment, at current industry prices."
Well, in the latest development, Ralph demanded an apology from
me. "I, nor anyone else at IStop.com has to tolerate abuse from
customers. Unless you're planning to apologize, you should start
looking for a new ISP."
I guess Ralph doesn't consider any of his treatment to be
"abuse". I thought my reply was even-handed:
"You mean where I used the word "shit" in response to your use of
the word "shit"?
I made no slight towards you or your employees, Ralph. We have
an agreement regarding this translation. I've held my end of the deal
and provided a complete translation of the site. The ball is in your
court. You may wish to break the deal and the terms that you yourself
established. You may even decide to cut off my service out of spite.
However, I must warn you that you will be liable for the full amount of
the translation work at current industry prices, plus damages incurred
by your unfair decision to cut my services.
Snap out of it, Ralph. You are being most unfair, and you know
it."
If you don't hear from me anymore, you'll know what happened.
LOL.
jaybee
Nick Zentena
>
>
> So now you know the level of "business" that Ralph conducts. I
No now we know how YOU conduct business. Do you routinely treat
your clients this way? Or is Ralph the first one you've had problems with? I
wonder.
> the barter deal over two years, since Ralph broke the deal by not
> respecting his end (the translation is fine, it's him who balked).
It's fine in your opinion. Right? What standard did the two of you agree
to?
>
> I tell my GF that it's not worth wasting the time, but I'm not
> entirely convinced that my mind is made up yet.
I'd keep that lawyer on hand. I'd be suing you if it was me.
Nick
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:2ea131-...@barley.dyndns.org:
> No now we know how YOU conduct business. Do you routinely treat
> your clients this way? Or is Ralph the first one you've had problems
> with? I wonder.
You mean do I consistently deliver quality work? Yes, I do. Only
I usually charge 30 cents a word. When I do it for ridiculously low
prices (such as in exchange for internet access), I expect a little
better treatment from the client than pissing on my work. But that's
just me.
>> the barter deal over two years, since Ralph broke the deal by not
>> respecting his end (the translation is fine, it's him who balked).
>
> It's fine in your opinion. Right? What standard did the two of you
> agree
> to?
It's fine according to the people on this ng who looked at it.
That was the agreed-upon standard. That was plainly stated in my
message, for anyone (but you) to notice.
> I'd keep that lawyer on hand. I'd be suing you if it was me.
Yah, you might tell the judge how you incurred mental distress
because I would have forced you to fairly respect your end of the deal,
and now you suffer incredible back pain whenever you bend forward to
kiss ass.
Like I told Ralph, on second thought we still have a deal. I
respected my end of the bargain, now I expect him to respect his. His
response was to threaten to cut off my internet access.
I guess your evaluation of legal obligations is about as valid as
your reading comprehension skills.
jaybee
repatch
listening to, of course many would say the same of me, but before you make
your desicion I think you should review some previous posts from Mr.
Bouchard, you might again change your mind.
"Don" <sage...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sJl7b.2118$fC5.5...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:2fm7b.3644$k81.2...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Out of all the people here, Jacques is definately one you shouldn't be
> listening to, of course many would say the same of me, but before you
> make your desicion I think you should review some previous posts from
> Mr. Bouchard, you might again change your mind.
And that is relevant to the quality of the translation work
screwign me out of a contract how, exactly?
Better stick to eating paint chips, junior.
jaybee
Malcolm Ferguson
<snip>
I have to chuckle at this I'm afraid. When you described Ralph, you
described the CEO of the place I work for, and who I happen to be
reporting to directly at the moment. There are people like this who
will question everything and on the surface sound ungrateful. I don't
think they are, it's just how they come across. You just have to learn
and figure out what they're really saying. Maybe they've been burnt by
bad employees in the past. Maybe they feel threatened about things they
don't fully understand. Maybe they have a genuine interest in learning
more and this is their way of question what they thought they knew.
Ralph's business is important to him, and this just demonstrates to me
that he cares about it. Whatever - their tone often seems brusque when
really it's not. I don't know Ralph, but he reminds me of people I've
worked successfully with. Maybe you don't want to work with people like
that, and that's fine too.
In another example, it's like the English: they sound excessively
negative to North Americans in particular (and many are), but that's
partly because the level for what is a positive comment is lower and so
they don't gush with superlatives - in typical English understatement,
"oh, it's ok" or "it's alright" means "it's fantasticly brilliant" this
side of the Atlantic.
Anyway, your reaction comes across as over-sensitive. It's also pretty
unprofessional airing your dirty laundry in public like this. I
wouldn't want to do business with you after this display. You have
escalated your grievance and potentially made things much worse. And
yes, I would feel the same way about Ralph if had been the one to break
the silence with a complaint about you. He didn't though.
My CAD$0.02
Malc
Malcolm Ferguson
>But, in any event, if he convinced you why don't you simply switch to
>the isp that he uses?
>
>
Hah! At least somebody's got a decent sense of humour around here.
Malc
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:dCm7b.872$QZ3.32...@news.nnrp.ca:
> I have to chuckle at this I'm afraid. When you described Ralph, you
> described the CEO of the place I work for, and who I happen to be
> reporting to directly at the moment. There are people like this who
> will question everything and on the surface sound ungrateful. I
don't
> think they are, it's just how they come across.
It's not rocket science, Malcolm: Ralph imposed the condition
that the translation pass muster with the group. It did, with flying
colours. Now he's trying to renegotiate the terms of the agreement.
Would you ever want to work with people who reserve all the
rights but give none? I hardly think so. If you applied for a job, and
the employer looked suspiciously at you and declared "I don't know
you're any good, maybe you suck. How about you work for me for free,
and at the end of the week I'll decide whether I keep you or fire you
without pay?", what would you say, Malcolm?
Because what you're telling me right now is that this condition
is perfectly acceptable for someone else than you.
> Anyway, your reaction comes across as over-sensitive. It's also
pretty
> unprofessional airing your dirty laundry in public like this. I
> wouldn't want to do business with you after this display.
I'm getting screwed out a week's work. Ralph's behaviour has
manifested itself again and again in his dealings with his customers.
Do you object to people reporting AEI's shoddy service? How about
Videotron's dismal e-mail service? I don't see this as being any
different.
jaybee
Sid Herbage
Don wrote:
>
> You know, it's stuff like this that gets people to lose business. I am in
> the process of considering switching ISP and Istop was first on my list.
> This little post has made me reconsider my choice.
You really need to temper this with the fact that JB has a history
here of diatribes against istop. It gets a bit wearing and many people
don't take him that seriously any more.
Ben Kennedy
"Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote:
> Ralph, who likes to count his pennies at night, replied cautiously
> that he agreed - IF I uploaded the translated site on my web space and
> submitted it to public scrutiny, just so he could "make sure". I rolled
> my eyes. Fine, whatever. As I had already told him, I did translation
> for a living, I wasn't worried about the quality of my work, if he
> needed a security blanket so be it.
Reading your post, I think the pair of you both have made some valid
points and both have dropped the ball in the handling of this whole
shennanigan. Speaking as a third party, I can only find this somewhat
amusing, and regretful that either of you has invested as much time in
the other as you have, when clearly neither is *fully* committed to what
you both make out to be the goal (providing a Fr localization in
exchange for service).
> Over the next week and a half, I took whatever free time I had
> from my paying job to work on Istop.com's web site. I used the tools of
> the trade and reference material of unimpeachable accuracy. I even
> cleaned up some of the original site's horrid sentence structure in the
> translation process. Even though I was doing this at ridiculous rates
> (the normal rate is 30 cents a word or more), I gave it every bit the
> attention I give other paying work.
That's noble and respectable of you, especially in the face of the
compensation that you expected to receive. I didn't do a word count on
your pages, but it would probably fair to assume that there were a few
hundred dollars worth of billable work performed therein.
Maybe if you amortize your expected return ($50/mo) over a year it works
out, but still, to offer that work at such a discount is laudable.
> At this point I'm thinking "Well fucking duh!" What does Ralph
> think *MY* primary language is?! I'm starting to feel more than miffed
> at him. Remember, he's getting professional service at DIRT CHEAP
> rates.
Your reaction about having the language second-guessed is reasonable.
After all, it would be akin to you phoning Ralph up and saying "uhhh
Ralph, the A in ADSL really means Asynchronous doesn't it? no? I
thoguht it did, are you sure?".
However, the part about professional service and dirt cheap rates is a
fallacy of argument and provides no logical support to your statement.
It's an appeal to emotion, a red herring. You both already knew what
service was being provided for what compensation.
> "Ralph," I write, "with all due respect, I'm the translator and
> you're the unilingual anglo. I'm VERY good at what I do. If you want to
> second-guess my work every step of the way, it's not going to work. I
> agreed to this public evaluation (even though no self-respecting
> translator normally would, especially not at the rates I'm charging
> you), but this is downright insulting on your part."
That sounds like quite a reasonable way to express it, however.
> "You knew the deal and agreed to it." he says. "If you don't like
> the arrangement then you can walk away from it. If you think I'm going
> to accept your work without question just because you've got an
> inflated ego then you're in for a surprise. You seem to be forgetting I
> DON'T NEED a french version of the IStop.com. My business has grown to
> thousands of customers without it. As I posted on the newsgroups, if I
> can offer some level of french support for a small additional cost, I'd
> like to do that. If I have to take any shit from you, that's not part
> of the deal."
Though I would have expressed myself differently, for the most part
these statements make sense as fact. The remark about the inflated ego
was unnecessary, but I think we can accept that everyone involved has
egos. Ralph has made it patently obvious in this group on other
occasions that a Fr version of the site is not a priority, and that he
would only entertain installing one if he could do so for minimal cost.
Obviously you understand same since you accepted to provide a full
multi-page localization for remarkably low cost.
I don't know whether you had negotiated beforehand any provision or
exchange of shit, so I can't comment on that part. :)
Fundamentally, it sounds like you two made a very loose oral agreement,
and as Ralph needled you about it toward the end, you caved in. Next
time if you have any doubts about the tenacity of a contract, and if you
are serious about pursuing it and completing it to the satisfaction of
both parties, you may wish to put it on paper.
> "Ralph, screw this shit. If you think for a moment that I need to
> take your second-guessing, let me ask you: how the fuck are YOU
> qualified to translate? I normally charge 30 cents a word for
> translation, and that's standard in the biz. You're getting my
> excellent work at slave wages, and you're pissing on it? [....]
It's too bad you jumped into a frothy-mouthed tirade of swearing; it
moves you down a level just slightly from Ralph's quality of discourse.
Anyway, we can assume that Ralph is not qualified to translate. And so
what? He never had an intention of translating. That's why you offered
to do it for him.
> So now you know the level of "business" that Ralph conducts. I
> think back to when I was translating the web site and slogging through
> the excruciatingb syntax and sentence structure that made it look like
> it was originally written by lobotomized monkeys. I had visited Magma's
> web site to see how they had structured theirs, and while they have no
> french version, I was very much impressed by the level of
> professionalism and the quality of the design. It made Itop.com's web
> site look below amateurish, and I realized what a fly-by-night, poor
> cousin redneck operation Ralph is running. And now, I know the mindset
> that is behind it all.
I've been a customer of Ralph's for two and a half years, and the
mindset I see is more or less the same as it appeared to me at the
beginning: sugary customer-kissing sheen takes a back seat to providing
the fundamental service. Since I've been paying significantly more
affordable rates for what is in most cases the same product I would
receive from a more expensive shop with more expensive overhead (like
Magma), that suits me fine. And as I've said before, if I really want
to I can page Ralph personally at any time of day if I have an issue.
One might think that's worth even *more* than a generic technical
support service you'd be stuck with elsewhere (do you have Randy Byers's
number?).
I'm not trying to be an Istop apologist, and I do not wish to construe
that the level of service or quality of customer service has been
flawless. Indeed, I've had (and continue to have), on occasion, issues
that I wouldn't have to deal with if I were a Magma customer. But put
it all together into a pot, stew it up, and assess the value of it as a
whole to determine whether it is worth the value you're paying, whether
you are a happy customer. If you are not, go elsewhere.
> My GF, who's a lawyer, smells blood and wants to sue Ralph for the
> actual market value of the translation work, which is several thousand
> dollars. At the very least, she wants to go for the estimated value of
> the barter deal over two years, since Ralph broke the deal by not
> respecting his end (the translation is fine, it's him who balked).
I don't see your work up on istop.com, so what would you sue him for?
Wasting your time?
> I tell my GF that it's not worth wasting the time, but I'm not
> entirely convinced that my mind is made up yet.
It's not worth wasting the time. Move on.
-ben
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:3F5DF5D2...@istop.com:
> You really need to temper this with the fact that JB has a history
> here of diatribes against istop. It gets a bit wearing and many
people
> don't take him that seriously any more.
Has no impact whatsoever on the situation. I provided the service
that Ralph asked for, in good faith and as a form of olive branch
extended to him (why do you think I proposed to do it for so cheap?).
My work even received approval from the users here, as demanded by
Ralph.
Now he's reneging on the deal. One might think you're the one
showing ill will here in your assessment of the situation.
jaybee
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:ben-1EDD30.1...@ip195.istop.com:
> I don't see your work up on istop.com, so what would you sue him for?
> Wasting your time?
Asking for the work, having it pass evalation from the users as he
requested, and then changing his mind.
jaybee
Nick Zentena
>
> You mean do I consistently deliver quality work? Yes, I do. Only
> I usually charge 30 cents a word. When I do it for ridiculously low
> prices (such as in exchange for internet access), I expect a little
> better treatment from the client than pissing on my work. But that's
> just me.
You expect better treatment from the customer? That a curious attitude.
Did you agree to the price? Then it's not riciiculously low it's fair
market. Sounds like you had sellers remorse.
>
> It's fine according to the people on this ng who looked at it.
> That was the agreed-upon standard. That was plainly stated in my
> message, for anyone (but you) to notice.
>
So in the agreement between the two of you it stated that the readers of
can.internet.highspeed would be the sole standard? Really? The customer had
no right to even look at it? Ask you some questions about it?
>
>> I'd keep that lawyer on hand. I'd be suing you if it was me.
>
> Yah, you might tell the judge how you incurred mental distress
> because I would have forced you to fairly respect your end of the deal,
> and now you suffer incredible back pain whenever you bend forward to
> kiss ass.
>
> Like I told Ralph, on second thought we still have a deal. I
> respected my end of the bargain, now I expect him to respect his. His
> response was to threaten to cut off my internet access.
>
> I guess your evaluation of legal obligations is about as valid as
> your reading comprehension skills.
Lets see what you've claimed
1) The two of you came to a mutual agreement.
2) While performing the work you decided the agreed upon price was too low.
3) When you delivered the work the customer questioned you about it. You
responded in an abusive unprofessional manner.
4) You then decided to post you message. Including supposedly private
emails between you and the customer.
Right?
So basically you decided you bid too low and wanted out of the contract.
You acted in a manner to get out of it.
Nick
Jacques E. Bouchard
> Jacques E. Bouchard <jacques_e...@nospamyahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> You mean do I consistently deliver quality work? Yes, I do.
>> Only
>> I usually charge 30 cents a word. When I do it for ridiculously low
>> prices (such as in exchange for internet access), I expect a little
>> better treatment from the client than pissing on my work. But that's
>> just me.
>
> You expect better treatment from the customer? That a curious
> attitude.
I gave this job 100% of the effort and consideration I give any
other work at regular rates. It's professional work at a great price, I
was doing Ralph a huge favour. Hence my low tolerance for abuse.
> Did you agree to the price? Then it's not riciiculously low it's fair
> market. Sounds like you had sellers remorse.
I'm not the one trying to renegotiate the contract. I met all of
Ralph's conditions. So why is Ralph not upholding his end of the deal
now?
jaybee
Malcolm Ferguson
So sue him for breach of contract. You've already boasted about your
legal contacts.
I'd be interested to see how long it takes you to change ISP. If you
carry on giving him money for that then obviously you're not that upset.
Malc
Jacques E. Bouchard
> So in the agreement between the two of you it stated that the
> readers of
> can.internet.highspeed would be the sole standard? Really?
Exactly. Ralph's condition, not mine.
> The
> customer had no right to even look at it? Ask you some questions
> about it?
Sure he can, but when he argues with me that "abonner" means
"support" in french (look it up), who is right? The unlinigual
anglophone, or the professional translator?
> 2) While performing the work you decided the agreed upon price was
> too low.
No, I didn't. Where did you see that?
> 3) When you delivered the work the customer questioned you about
it.
> You
> responded in an abusive unprofessional manner.
When I delivered the work and it passed the evaluation of the
other users, as requested by Ralph, he changed his mind because he
thinks that "support" should be translated as "abonner".
> So basically you decided you bid too low and wanted out of the
> contract.
Man, you really ARE lousy at reading, making up stuff as you go
along and whatnot.
I offered Ralph a great deal because I thought everyone would
benefit from a french web page, and it would appease the linguistic
disputes. I also thought I could get free access in the deal, not
nearly enough as far as the market goes, but that's all I asked for and
that's all I expected.
I still expect Ralph to respect his end of the deal. All I ask is
what he promised. That's unfair?
jaybee
Jacques E. Bouchard
> I'd be interested to see how long it takes you to change ISP. If you
> carry on giving him money for that then obviously you're not that
> upset.
The ISP is not the issue, Malcolm. The service provided is
adequate, I have no complaints about that. It seems that people are
unable to separate that issue from the translation agreement. Maybe I
should have used colour-coded tabs in my message, to help them focus and
keep their eye on the ball.
Ralph, on the other hand, is threatening to cut me off because I
demand that he respect his end of the deal. So I may have to change, who
knows?
Malcolm Ferguson
> Sure he can, but when he argues with me that "abonner" means
>"support" in french (look it up), who is right? The unlinigual
>anglophone, or the professional translator?
>
>
The prima donna is always right.
Malcolm Ferguson
>Malcolm Ferguson <Malcolm_Ferguson@NO_SPAM_PLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in
>news:V5n7b.876$s64.32...@news.nnrp.ca:
>
>
>
>>I'd be interested to see how long it takes you to change ISP. If you
>>carry on giving him money for that then obviously you're not that
>>upset.
>>
>>
>
>
> The ISP is not the issue, Malcolm. The service provided is
>adequate, I have no complaints about that. It seems that people are
>unable to separate that issue from the translation agreement.
>
I understand exactly what you said. But you're still doing business
with a company that you claim screwed you, even if it was on another
issue. Your actions speak louder than your words.
Malc
Jacques E. Bouchard
Then we don't have a french site, do we? We have a tower of Babel.
jaybee
Jacques E. Bouchard
> I understand exactly what you said. But you're still doing business
> with a company that you claim screwed you, even if it was on another
> issue. Your actions speak louder than your words.
I've told Ralph that I'm ready to respect our barter agreement if
he is. It's up to him, we will see.
jaybee
Ben Kennedy
"Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote:
> The ISP is not the issue, Malcolm. The service provided is
> adequate, I have no complaints about that. It seems that people are
> unable to separate that issue from the translation agreement. Maybe I
> should have used colour-coded tabs in my message, to help them focus and
> keep their eye on the ball.
>
> Ralph, on the other hand, is threatening to cut me off because I
> demand that he respect his end of the deal. So I may have to change, who
> knows?
From what you posted, it sounds like he was threatening to cut you off
because you continue to treat him abusively.
I agree that in principle, the issue of your translation agreement and
that of the quality of your DSL service are two separate things. But
you will continue to look like a whiney hypocrite if you inflame Ralph
on one hand, while remarking satisfaction with his service on the other.
By the way, it would be cool if you post new ideas in each of your
follow-ups to this thread, rather than re-inforcing arguments you've
already made in each reply. For those of us (foolishly) reading the
rest of the thread, it gets boring.
-ben
(I'm beginning to regret participating in this at all. But once you
pop, ya just can't stop...)
Malcolm Ferguson
So you're just using this newsgroup as a form of leverage in your
business dealings with him. Nice.
Malc
repatch
value...
"Deep Blue" <nob...@igs.net> wrote in message
news:xbm7b.852097$hf5.6...@news.easynews.com...
Jacques E. Bouchard
> From what you posted, it sounds like he was threatening to cut you
off
> because you continue to treat him abusively.
I responded in kind to his message.
> I agree that in principle, the issue of your translation agreement
and
> that of the quality of your DSL service are two separate things. But
> you will continue to look like a whiney hypocrite if you inflame
Ralph
> on one hand, while remarking satisfaction with his service on the
> other.
How is it hypocritical to keep issues separate? If a store sells
you a defective VCR, do you return it ALONG with the functional DVD
that you bought a year ago? That sounds like spite to me.
> By the way, it would be cool if you post new ideas in each of your
> follow-ups to this thread, rather than re-inforcing arguments you've
> already made in each reply. For those of us (foolishly) reading the
> rest of the thread, it gets boring.
Only because I have to keep repeating simple points that normally
should not require as much explanation as I've given so far.
jaybee
Jacques E. Bouchard
> So you're just using this newsgroup as a form of leverage in your
> business dealings with him. Nice.
It's a way to obtain more comments about the translation work
thast I've done from people who might not have offered any otherwise.
It seems to have worked.
I hardly think you would have behaved differently in any other
situation where you might feel cheated out of your work, Malcolm.
Aren't you applying double standards in this issue? You keep defending
treatment that no one else ever would accept in any normal situation.
jaybee
Marc Bissonnette
Oh what the hell, I'll throw my $0.02 in here, as well.
I hate to use a battered old cliché, but you've heard of the term "The
customer is always right" ? The saying goes on to say "... Even when he's
wrong"
I can't tell you how many times I've had a contract where a customer
asked me to perfom duties $X for compensation $Y - Had a signed
agreement, the whole nine yards - then the customer comes to me halfway
through the contract and starts dictating the "how" that I should be
doing things (One classic: " I looked in the database tables and you're
storing the dates as eight digit numbers - That is WRONG - it should be
in full format, like September 09, 2003" Even though it was explained to
him that an eight digit number takes up less space on the DB server and
is translated on-the-fly by the processing CGI. So how did the dates end
up stored in the DB ? Yup - long form. )
If the customer in question insists on making a couple of changes, even
against your professional advice - then make them. If it bothers you so
much to do as the client requests, simply don't attach your name to the
project or put it in your portfolio.
If all you're looking for is the ~$50 a month saved from your xDSL costs,
then you're still ahead of the game, since you offered it in a sense of
giving back to the community (since at commercial rates, there's no way
$600 would cover the entire job).
If you were looking to have your name attached to every page "Translation
par Jacques E. Bouchard - www.foo.com ", then that's a slightly different
story - Either you continued the work with the modifications that he
requested (After all, it is *his* site and *his* content), or you excused
yourself from the contract.
As others have said, though, airing the whole private email exchange in
public wasn't the best route to take. I, too, would be nervous about
doing business with you if I had to worry about any professional dispute
being aired in public, especially since when you post it, you would,
naturally, give it your own slant.
I would apologize to Ralph and either make the changes he requests or
simply back off entirely from the project.
As it is now, the exchange looks like it's heading into libel territory,
especially since a few people have publicly stated that your diatribe has
caused them to take business away from IStop.
--
Marc Bissonnette
/ Perl / CGI / Database / Dynamic Web Content Control /
http://www.internalysis.com
Looking for a new ISP? http://www.canadianisp.com
Jacques E. Bouchard
jaybee
renald loignon
>
>: So you're just using this newsgroup as a form of leverage in your
Tony Reed <tr...@altern.org> wrote:
>Ralph uses this newsgroup as part of his customer support service, so
>he's fair game.
;-)))) Touché!
(Not that I approve of this whole public (one-way) spat, but still....
I wish Ralph would create a local newsgroup, Web forum, mailing list,
or whatever.... for user support)
Chris
>
> The matter is closed. Ralph and I have come to an agreement.
>
> jaybee
Since you've made this matter public, could you please tell us what the
agreement is?
Marc Bissonnette
news:WXp7b.2373$fC5.5...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> In article <Xns93F186467C8C7dr...@206.172.150.14>,
> Marc Bissonnette <dra...@internalysis.com> wrote:
>
>: like September 09, 2003" Even though it was explained to
>: him that an eight digit number takes up less space on the DB server
>: and is translated on-the-fly by the processing CGI. So how did the
>: dates end up stored in the DB ? Yup - long form. )
>
> How did you process them if you stored them as a string? Just
> wondering; dates are a pain in the arse.
I had to convert them on-the-fly back to a numeric form in order to do
the comparisons (Yeah, I know, mind-numbingly inefficient) - I always put
a first column called dbid in my tables and have them auto-increment, so
I've got a unique field for every record: I would select the dbid and the
date from the rows that matched the query, then convert the dates into a
numeric string and store them in a hash with the dbid as the key. Then I
could sort by date and display as the script cycled through each key in
the hash.
So:
%months=(
'January'=>'01',
'February'=>'02',
'March'=>'03',
'April'=>'04',
'May'=>'05',
'June'=>'06',
'July'=>'07',
'August'=>'08',
'September'=>'09',
'October'=>'10',
'November'=>'11',
'December'=>'12'
);
$query1= "SELECT `dbid`,`date` from tablename WHERE `column` =
\"$condition\"";
$dbh=DBI->connect('dbi:mysql:$dbname','$username','$password',
{RaiseError=>1});
$sth=$dbh->prepare($query1);
$sth->execute();
while (@row=$sth->fetchrow()) {
($month,$day,$year)= split / /,$row[1];
$day=~ s/\,//;
$newdate=$year.$months{$month}.$year;
$datehash{$newdate}=$row[0];
}
$sth->finish;
foreach $key (sort keys %newdatehash)
$newquery="SELECT * FROM tablename WHERE `dbid` = $datehash{$key}";
$sth=$dbh->prepare($query1);
$sth->execute();
$names = $sth->{NAME};
while (@row=$sth->fetchrow()) {
# Do stuff with returned values...
}
$sth->finish;
}
$dbh->disconnect;
Ugh. (There are probably better ways to do this with the dates being
stored as strings, but that was the best I could come up with, at the
time {and haven't had to think about it, since :) } )
Ben Kennedy
Marc Bissonnette <dra...@internalysis.com> wrote:
> Ugh. (There are probably better ways to do this with the dates being
> stored as strings, but that was the best I could come up with, at the
> time {and haven't had to think about it, since :) } )
Wow. Was it a mysql database? If you use a DATETIME or TIMESTAMP
column (I forget the details offhand without looking it up), it will
store them efficiently yet return them by default as strings in the
queries. :)
-ben
Ben Kennedy
Tony Reed <tr...@altern.org> wrote:
> The syntax didn't look quite like mysql. And it won't return them as
> sensible human-readable strings unless you format them that way:
Yes, well I suppose it depends what your take on "sensible
human-readable" is. :) I suppose you're right; I was making the
assumption that "YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS" format was sensible (it's good
enough for me to understand), as compared with a long int value of
seconds as it is actually stored in the DB.
http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/DATETIME.html
> That yyyy-mm-dd format is annoying though, it's truly counter-intuitive
> and only bureaucrats and database designers talk like that.
How is it counter-intuitive? It's missing a day-of-week, and its
ordering can be ambiguous especially when shared with Americans, I'll
give you that.
Makes much more sense to me than mm-dd-yy or something ridiculous though.
-ben
Sid Herbage
"Jacques E. Bouchard" wrote:
> Now he's reneging on the deal. One might think you're the one
> showing ill will here in your assessment of the situation.
Ill will regarding your continual use of this channel in your vendetta
against istop? Absolutely!
This latest thing simply goes further (too far). This was a private
matter or contract between you and Ralph. (The fact that you or Ralph
agreed to ask for comments on the website doesn't change the privacy
of your contract). That you have elected to make it public in this
unprofessional manner does not abrogate Ralph's right to privacy in
the matter by somehow "forcing his hand" and making him respond,
likewise, in public and is no reflection on him if he doesn't do so.
Therefore, I have only your side of the story and frankly Jaybee,
based on your past performance here, I see it as just another round in
your vendetta.
Jacques E. Bouchard
We've both agreed to respect the agreement. Ralph will use the
translation that I've done, and I will continue to do the updates.
jaybe
Malcolm Ferguson
>In article <ben-025F3C.1...@ip195.istop.com>,
> Ben Kennedy <b...@zygoat.caDESPAMIFY> wrote:
>
>: Wow. Was it a mysql database? If you use a DATETIME or TIMESTAMP
>: column (I forget the details offhand without looking it up), it will
>: store them efficiently yet return them by default as strings in the
>: queries. :)
>
>The syntax didn't look quite like mysql. And it won't return them as
>sensible human-readable strings unless you format them that way:
>
>$arrv = strtotime($row->came);
>echo date("D M d Y T", $arrv);
>
>or in mysql something like:
>date_format(timeHit,'%a %b %d %Y %T')
>
As a SQL Server guy, I would say that I would do this in the SELECT
clause of T-SQL:
SELECT
YEAR(mydate), MONTH(mydate), DAY(mydate), DATEPART(hh, mydate)
FROM
(SELECT CAST('September 09, 2003' AS DATETIME) AS mydate) AS SQ
I was going to ask if MySQL, but my telephone meeting is boring so I
found it for myself:
<http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Cast_Functions.html>
>Anyway, his client wanted the date _stored in the DB_ as a string, I
>dunno, so he could look at it quickly on the command line or something.
>So it's stored as a string and has to be sorted on and so on as a
>string.
>
That's just twisted. I guess the client wasn't pursuaded by the extra
costs his/her request incurred.
> You can't just do an "order by date" on it, outside of a single
>month.
>
Like I said, CAST or CONVERT it.
>That yyyy-mm-dd format is annoying though, it's truly counter-intuitive
>and only bureaucrats and database designers talk like that.
>
Or the Japanese. Based on your comment in another thread I would have
thought you liked this format as it is an ISO standard ;) I like it for
file and folder names as sorting by name also sorts chronologically.
Now the American date format is more than "truly counter-intuitive".
Even American immigration seems to use the more common and sensible
format found here in Canada and Europe.
>This is an interesting thread.
>
Heh: they sometimes break out around here. I guess people forget how to
bicker for a moment ;)
Malc
Malcolm Ferguson
>In article <ben-77192E.1...@ip195.istop.com>,
> Ben Kennedy <b...@zygoat.caDESPAMIFY> wrote:
>
>: Makes much more sense to me than mm-dd-yy or something ridiculous though.
>
>Well, I meant compared to 25/12/03, or Friday August 3rd, or something
>we're all used to (12/25/03, if'n y'all are frum down there).
>
What about 03/04/02?
<http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-date-format.html>
> You have
>to force a user to enter something he rarely sees outside of his
>passport or his arrest record. Of course, you can let him enter anything
>he wants and then try to make sense of it.
>
I guess that's why a lot of web sites use drop lists or other specific
HTML or ActiveX based calendar controls.
Malc
Malcolm Ferguson
>And yes, it was MySQL (the only DB type I know, at present, though it's
>been suggested by a few that I start learning Postgres and some flavour
>of Oracle... Sigh.)
>
>
What, you mean you don't keep a SQL-92 BNF diagram by your desk?
<http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/sql/sql2bnf.aug92.txt>
;)
Marc Bissonnette
Hey, that's cool, Ben! I knew about the DATE and DATETIME columns, but I
had assumed it _only_ stored it as YYYY-MM-DD-HH-MM-SS formats, which I
never used, because it wastes bytes (when there's several million rows in
a DB, even the hyphens between the numbers add up) After actually
_reading_ the URL you posted, rather than the glance I initially gave it,
a year ago, I learned:
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
You can specify DATETIME, DATE, and TIMESTAMP values using any of a
common set of formats:
[...]
* As a number in either YYYYMMDD or YYMMDD format, provided that the
number makes sense as a date. For example, 19830905 and 830905 are
interpreted as '1983-09-05'.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
And yes, it was MySQL (the only DB type I know, at present, though it's
been suggested by a few that I start learning Postgres and some flavour
of Oracle... Sigh.)
As Tony pointed out, though, in the example previous, the customer
_insisted_ that the dates be stored in long-format. (A little bit of
knowledge make a customer dangerous....)
Marc Bissonnette
@news20.bellglobal.com:
> In article <ben-025F3C.1...@ip195.istop.com>,
> Ben Kennedy <b...@zygoat.caDESPAMIFY> wrote:
>
>: Wow. Was it a mysql database? If you use a DATETIME or TIMESTAMP
>: column (I forget the details offhand without looking it up), it will
>: store them efficiently yet return them by default as strings in the
>: queries. :)
>
> The syntax didn't look quite like mysql. And it won't return them as
> sensible human-readable strings unless you format them that way:
>
> $arrv = strtotime($row->came);
> echo date("D M d Y T", $arrv);
>
> or in mysql something like:
> date_format(timeHit,'%a %b %d %Y %T')
>
> Anyway, his client wanted the date _stored in the DB_ as a string, I
> dunno, so he could look at it quickly on the command line or something.
> So it's stored as a string and has to be sorted on and so on as a
> string. You can't just do an "order by date" on it, outside of a single
> month.
>
> That yyyy-mm-dd format is annoying though, it's truly counter-intuitive
> and only bureaucrats and database designers talk like that.
Really? I always liked that format best - greatest number to least - makes
sense to me (and yes, as a DB programmer, more sortable, too :) :) :)
The example was Perl used to interface with MySQL via DBI, BTW.
Marc Bissonnette
> Tony Reed wrote:
>
>>In article <ben-025F3C.1...@ip195.istop.com>,
>> Ben Kennedy <b...@zygoat.caDESPAMIFY> wrote:
>>
>>: Wow. Was it a mysql database? If you use a DATETIME or TIMESTAMP
>>: column (I forget the details offhand without looking it up), it will
>>: store them efficiently yet return them by default as strings in the
>>: queries. :)
>>
>>The syntax didn't look quite like mysql. And it won't return them as
>>sensible human-readable strings unless you format them that way:
>>
>>$arrv = strtotime($row->came);
>>echo date("D M d Y T", $arrv);
>>
>>or in mysql something like:
>>date_format(timeHit,'%a %b %d %Y %T')
>>
>
> As a SQL Server guy, I would say that I would do this in the SELECT
> clause of T-SQL:
>
> SELECT
> YEAR(mydate), MONTH(mydate), DAY(mydate), DATEPART(hh, mydate)
> FROM
> (SELECT CAST('September 09, 2003' AS DATETIME) AS mydate) AS SQ
>
> I was going to ask if MySQL, but my telephone meeting is boring so I
> found it for myself:
> <http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/Cast_Functions.html>
CAST looks handy, unfortunately, we're running MySQL 3.23 and I'm not yet
comfortable with my admin skills to update it to 4.0.14, since it's a
production / live server. (I was kinda thrown into the sysadmin role with
little choice, so we've got our host as a backup to make sure the server
is plugged in and connected to the 'net, but anything I don't know how to
do, I have to learn on-the-fly, or it's US$150 an hour for the upstream
host to step in and do it for me.)
>>Anyway, his client wanted the date _stored in the DB_ as a string, I
>>dunno, so he could look at it quickly on the command line or something.
>>So it's stored as a string and has to be sorted on and so on as a
>>string.
>>
>
> That's just twisted. I guess the client wasn't pursuaded by the extra
> costs his/her request incurred.
Indeed - It was this example I was thinking of when Jacques was talking
about the IStop translation deal. Client asked for something that they
*knew* was wrong, despite best professional advice against it, but in the
end, the client is the one paying the invoice, so it has to be done.
(Well, if you want to eat that week, anyway :):)
[snip]
Marc Bissonnette
Ouch. :)
Ya know, I should prolly start a new thread on this, but what the heck -
this type of thing reminds me of some advice a friend of mine gave me
when I complained that my income level had somewhat plateaued: He said
that I was too much of a generalist - in my everyday work week, my
responsibilities/skills used tend to be:
Perl programmer
MySQL DB designer
eCommerce consultant
Website consultant
Webmaster
Server Admin (mail)
Server Admin (Apache)
(I won't lie and say I'm a sysadmin - Linux, 'cuz I'm a by-the-man page-
admin wannabe :)
Sales rep
Customer support rep
Amongst a few other things. I've been told what I need to do is to pick
an area and exclusively specialize in that and that alone. Sigh. I really
should give that more thought - everytime something cool comes up that I
think I should spend a little time learning (This week it's CSS, 'cuz
nested tables within nested tables are a Bad Thing), something else comes
up that sucks up the time :(
frank smith
same story ...
"Chris" <n...@no.com> wrote in message news:3F5E3809...@no.com...
Jacques E. Bouchard
news:Nht7b.71053$yg2.9...@weber.videotron.net:
> Well, we will probably see this in the next jaybee framewar. Same
> newsgroup same story ...
Meanwhile, Istop.com now has a french web site, translated by yours
truly. But feel free to continue doing fuckall in life, lip service is
much easier and does not require your prying your ass out of your
recliner.
jaybee
Andrew
For example
Any link to a french version of Istops site?
Have looked for one and well, it aint there.
Terms and conditions were created by you,
and subseqeuntly rejected
That is all
"Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns93F179848373Cja...@206.130.183.196...
> Malcolm Ferguson <Malcolm_Ferguson@NO_SPAM_PLEASEyahoo.com> wrote in
> news:dCm7b.872$QZ3.32...@news.nnrp.ca:
>
> > I have to chuckle at this I'm afraid. When you described Ralph, you
> > described the CEO of the place I work for, and who I happen to be
> > reporting to directly at the moment. There are people like this who
> > will question everything and on the surface sound ungrateful. I
> don't
> > think they are, it's just how they come across.
>
> It's not rocket science, Malcolm: Ralph imposed the condition
> that the translation pass muster with the group. It did, with flying
> colours. Now he's trying to renegotiate the terms of the agreement.
>
> Would you ever want to work with people who reserve all the
> rights but give none? I hardly think so. If you applied for a job, and
> the employer looked suspiciously at you and declared "I don't know
> you're any good, maybe you suck. How about you work for me for free,
> and at the end of the week I'll decide whether I keep you or fire you
> without pay?", what would you say, Malcolm?
>
> Because what you're telling me right now is that this condition
> is perfectly acceptable for someone else than you.
>
> > Anyway, your reaction comes across as over-sensitive. It's also
> pretty
> > unprofessional airing your dirty laundry in public like this. I
> > wouldn't want to do business with you after this display.
>
> I'm getting screwed out a week's work. Ralph's behaviour has
> manifested itself again and again in his dealings with his customers.
>
> Do you object to people reporting AEI's shoddy service? How about
> Videotron's dismal e-mail service? I don't see this as being any
> different.
>
>
>
> jaybee
Devon Ferns
"Sid Herbage" <sid...@istop.com> wrote in message
news:3F5E4C47...@istop.com...
Marcel
"Marc Bissonnette" <dra...@internalysis.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:Xns93F186467C8C7dr...@206.172.150.14...
[...]
| Oh what the hell, I'll throw my $0.02 in here, as well.
me 2 (as in 2 cents...)
| I hate to use a battered old cliché, but you've heard of the term "The
| customer is always right" ? The saying goes on to say "... Even when
he's
| wrong"
I liked to add that the 'customer' status requires payment. Of course,
expectancy of payment is a strong incentive to perform as the client
expects. But I draw the line when payment is due.
Marcel.
Renald Loignon
> Meanwhile, Istop.com now has a french web site, translated by yours
>truly. But feel free to continue doing fuckall in life, lip service is
>much easier and does not require your prying your ass out of your
>recliner.
And none of this public airing of dirty laundry (aka private contract
negotiation) was really necessary, in the end... <shrug>
(Dear "concitoyen", you certainly exhibit in abundance the famed
"latin temperament".... ;-)
x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
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renald loignon
>....... Based on your comment in another thread I would have
>thought you liked this format as it is an ISO standard ;) I like it for
>file and folder names as sorting by name also sorts chronologically.
>Now the American date format is more than "truly counter-intuitive".
There's the joke about the origin of this format...
Q: Why do Americans write dates the way they do?
A: Because when an American wakes up from a drinking binge, the first
question he asks is "What month is this?"......
Don
Now I DEFINTELY want this guy to translate my site!!!
Pfft....even after getting what he wanted, he is still whining. If this is
classified as Professaional, then I'll stick to using a dictionary or even
some of my bi-lingual work mates.
Funny thing though....the subject didn't reflect the outcome.....
--
Don
"Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns93F1D1CC163A2ja...@206.130.183.196...
> "frank smith" <frank...@aliencow.com> wrote in
> news:Nht7b.71053$yg2.9...@weber.videotron.net:
>
[Score: 0, whining]
Tegger®
pecked in news:Xns93F179848373Cja...@206.130.183.196:
>
> I'm getting screwed out a week's work.
With all due respect, sir, seems to me you have used up an entire week's
worth of typing to gripe about this matter.
--
TeGGeR®
toronto
> "Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote:
> > My GF, who's a lawyer, smells blood and wants to sue Ralph for the
> > actual market value of the translation work, which is several thousand
> > dollars.
Then your GF isn't a very good lawyer. You have no hope of winning several
thousand dollars, because that was never the compensation that was agreed
for this work. You can sue to enforce the terms of the contract, not to
claim amounts that the client never agreed to pay and that you never
contracted to receive.
The most a judge would do is to enforce payment of the agreed amount, in
this case the value of free Internet service.
John Eggert
Are you certain about that? What about costs? Did IStop fail to mitigate? Is
the agreement in Ontario (The British model of Jurisprudence) or Quebec
(the Napoleonic code). Also, is JB's GF trained as an attorney in Quebec
law or TROC law. The civil law in Quebec is radically different than the
civil law in TROC. Attorneys in Canada generally do not specialize in both.
If you are from Quebec and sueing someone for a tort in Ontario, best not
use a lawyer from Quebec (and vice versa).
Just my $0.015US.
JE
Poobah
point!
"Don" <sage...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:7fF7b.3093$fC5.8...@news20.bellglobal.com:
Don
now resolved but you obviously feel it's nessesary to act like an ass just
as he did so please...continue....I find you highly amusing.
Sheesh. Anyone think this guy will get the point?
--
Don
"Poobah" <poo...@NOSPAMflashmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F34E4C5A019p...@140.99.99.130...
Poobah
"Don" <sage...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:dh%7b.4146$fC5.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
Don
eh? Well, good luck, you are doing a great job.
Gee, I wonder how long we can keep this now-pointless thread going?
--
Don
"Poobah" <poo...@NOSPAMflashmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F3CB9E9AA4Fp...@140.99.99.130...
frank smith
"Poobah" <poo...@NOSPAMflashmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F3CB9E9AA4Fp...@140.99.99.130...
Poobah
"frank smith" <frank...@aliencow.com> wrote in news:_4r8b.68674$0_
5.12...@weber.videotron.net:
Ex.
If you got a problem with it, then get another ISP.
English is still an official language. And if it's not hurting his business,
then why should he care?
Grow up and get a life.
Ex.
"Jacques E. Bouchard" <jacques_e...@NOSPAMyahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns93F1682FA1F0Fja...@206.130.183.196...
> Following the recent controversy regarding Istop.com's unilingual
> service in Quebec, I suffered from temporary insanity and e-mailed
> Ralph to offer him a barter: in exchange for free service, I would
> translate the web site for him and keep it updated. Ralph replied that
> he would agree to an exchange for the 1.7mbps service (a $29.95
> value!). I choked, swallowed hard, and corrected his aim: I would do it
> for my currently 3.5 mbps service at $50 a month, and he would STILL be
> getting off extremely cheap in the barter deal!
>
> Ralph, who likes to count his pennies at night, replied cautiously
> that he agreed - IF I uploaded the translated site on my web space and
> submitted it to public scrutiny, just so he could "make sure". I rolled
> my eyes. Fine, whatever. As I had already told him, I did translation
> for a living, I wasn't worried about the quality of my work, if he
> needed a security blanket so be it.
>
> Over the next week and a half, I took whatever free time I had
> from my paying job to work on Istop.com's web site. I used the tools of
> the trade and reference material of unimpeachable accuracy. I even
> cleaned up some of the original site's horrid sentence structure in the
> translation process. Even though I was doing this at ridiculous rates
> (the normal rate is 30 cents a word or more), I gave it every bit the
> attention I give other paying work.
>
> I finally finished the translation and uploaded it to my web space
> before the agreed-upon deadline. I posted a message here inviting all
> francophone users to visit it and give comment in English for Ralph's
> sake. All comments were excellent, as I fully expected. As I said
> before, I do this for a living.
>
> Then Ralph started. Shouldn't "support" be "abroger" in french, he
> asks me in e-mail? I scoff, and tell him that "abroger" means "to
> repeal". I also add: "BTW, Ralph, you do know that I do this kind of
> stuff for a living all the time, right? ;-)"
>
> Next he replies that the word he was thinking about was "abonner",
> and that he's sure that's french for "support". I frown and count to
> ten before replying to him. "No." I tell him. "You know Ralph, you'll
> have to learn to trust me more."
>
> "I'm not saying I don't trust you," Ralph replies, "I'm just
> saying I doubt you're perfect. For example, rocler.com uses the word
> abonner, and in their case french seems to be their primary language
> and english secondary."
>
> At this point I'm thinking "Well fucking duh!" What does Ralph
> think *MY* primary language is?! I'm starting to feel more than miffed
> at him. Remember, he's getting professional service at DIRT CHEAP
> rates.
>
> "Ralph," I write, "with all due respect, I'm the translator and
> you're the unilingual anglo. I'm VERY good at what I do. If you want to
> second-guess my work every step of the way, it's not going to work. I
> agreed to this public evaluation (even though no self-respecting
> translator normally would, especially not at the rates I'm charging
> you), but this is downright insulting on your part."
>
> And then comes the coup de grace, the straw that breaks the
> camel's back, the last drop. Ralph's ultimate reply where he hikes up
> his pants, adjusts his bow tie and "tells it like it is".
>
> "You knew the deal and agreed to it." he says. "If you don't like
> the arrangement then you can walk away from it. If you think I'm going
> to accept your work without question just because you've got an
> inflated ego then you're in for a surprise. You seem to be forgetting I
> DON'T NEED a french version of the IStop.com. My business has grown to
> thousands of customers without it. As I posted on the newsgroups, if I
> can offer some level of french support for a small additional cost, I'd
> like to do that. If I have to take any shit from you, that's not part
> of the deal."
>
> Well fuck you very much, you little piece of shit white trash
> redneck. My reply is instantaneous.
>
> "Ralph, screw this shit. If you think for a moment that I need to
> take your second-guessing, let me ask you: how the fuck are YOU
> qualified to translate? I normally charge 30 cents a word for
> translation, and that's standard in the biz. You're getting my
> excellent work at slave wages, and you're pissing on it? Fuck this. If
> anyone asked you to do work that cheap and then had the gall to
> criticize it while knowing fuckall about it, you'd turn purple and have
> one of your iffy fits. Yet, here you are treating me the same way.
> I'll mail my cheque for the current invoice today. If ever I see you
> using even one word that I translated, I will take you to court for
> full payment, at current industry prices."
>
>
> So now you know the level of "business" that Ralph conducts. I
> think back to when I was translating the web site and slogging through
> the excruciatingb syntax and sentence structure that made it look like
> it was originally written by lobotomized monkeys. I had visited Magma's
> web site to see how they had structured theirs, and while they have no
> french version, I was very much impressed by the level of
> professionalism and the quality of the design. It made Itop.com's web
> site look below amateurish, and I realized what a fly-by-night, poor
> cousin redneck operation Ralph is running. And now, I know the mindset
> that is behind it all.
>
> My GF, who's a lawyer, smells blood and wants to sue Ralph for the
> actual market value of the translation work, which is several thousand
> dollars. At the very least, she wants to go for the estimated value of
> the barter deal over two years, since Ralph broke the deal by not
> respecting his end (the translation is fine, it's him who balked).
>
> I tell my GF that it's not worth wasting the time, but I'm not
> entirely convinced that my mind is made up yet.
>
>
>
>
>
> jaybee
JF Mezei
amazed at Jacques work and the fact that Sir Ralph seemed to have moved
towards accepting french language web site.
My gut feeling right now is that perhaps Sir Ralph called a bluff, thinking
nobody would actually translate the stuff. But When Mr Bouchard changed his
rethoric into an actual professionally translated web site, Mr Ralph was taken
aback, not knowing what to do with it. So he managed to insult Mr Bouchard
enough to break any deal, which puts Mr Ralph off the hook and allows him to
return to his red neck area.
I'll finish reading the posts and see if this feeling changes.
JF Mezei
> You really need to temper this with the fact that JB has a history
> here of diatribes against istop.
No matter what his diatribes have been in the past, (the last one , as I
recall, was about the filtering of emails for @istop.com mailboxes), you
CANNOT COMPLAIN about his volunteer work for the translation of the web site.
This guy delivered on an offer to translate the web site essentially for free.
I agree that a month's service as a payment is just a token payment compared
to the value of the translation work. (I also know translators and the going
rate which Mr Bouchard has posted is fairly common, especially for short jobs
with no recurring work).
If I had been Ralph, I probably would have offered the 3.5m service at the
cost of the 1.5m service for as long as Mr Bouchard agrees to maintain the
french side of the web site.
JF Mezei
>
> > I don't see your work up on istop.com, so what would you sue him for?
> > Wasting your time?
Years ago, some toronto based lobby group spent mega dollars to try to prevent
the federal government from instituting some international <industry> centre
in Montréal. The montreal branch of that toronto based lobby group was in
charge of translating that large document to french so it could be presented
to the feds in both official languages.
As usual, the french translator had to work very late on the last day to get
the stuff done (you can't start working until they give you the english
version, and then they constantly send you updates). At the very same time
that the translator was working at night, the president of that lobby group
was having a late dinner with the finance minister (and possibly others). At
06:00 in the morning, the montreal office received a message to DESTROY *all*
copies of that document since the lobby group could no longer be seen as
opposing that project.
So, all that sweat and long hours were wasted and sent to a paper schredder.
(the document was to have been made public that day). Yet, the translator was
paid for her work and overtime.
So, if Sir Ralph chooses to not-use the translated work from Mr Bouchard, that
is his choice. But he should still compensate Mr Bouchard for his work.
If Mr Ralph isn't confident Mr Bouchard's work is up to snuff, he simply need
to hire a proofreader who will find any errors in the french text. If the
proofreader concludes that the web site is perfect, then Mr Ralph should have
no complaints and would then need to concuct some other excuse shoudl he still
wish to indefinitely delay the introcustion of the french version of his web site.
JF Mezei
> This latest thing simply goes further (too far). This was a private
> matter or contract between you and Ralph.
While on the surface, this is true, please remember that Mr Ralph dared anyone
to translate his web site right here on this newsgroup and Mr Bouchard
actually took him up on his offer. So to a certain extent, there is some
legitimacy in keeping the readers of the newsgroup appraised of the situation.
Perhaps not airring actual dirty laundry. But definitely status reports.
I think that somethink aking to "Mr Ralph has decided not to uphold our
agreement, so the french web site is not going to be used, and I won't get
paid" would have been sufficient without any of the colourful metaphors used
to describe Mr Ralph.
However, I can understand the frustration when you have just done a great job
as a volunteer and are given some lame excuse on why it won't be used. Been
there, done that. And yes, the <diplomacy off> switch does naturally come into
full force and you do tend to say what you think.
Sid Herbage
JF Mezei wrote:
> While on the surface, this is true, please remember that Mr Ralph dared anyone
> to translate his web site right here ......
I realise you've been away, JF, but does it really make sense when you
come back to make multiple posts to resurrect a week-old thread that
had finally died (and probably shouldn't have been started in the
first place)?
It's gone, you missed it. Let it go JF.
Tony
businesses in Canada only use Chink letters.No local Canadian has a clue
what their gibberish means. The F-R-O-Gs are history. The birthrate
amoungst the F-R-O-G race is zilch.