Hydro-Quebec wants your S.I.N. Just say no!
David Jones
Hydro-Quebec has started sending out the following notice
to customers with their most recent electricity bills.
It tells customers "not to worry" when asked to provide
their Social Insurance Number. I consider this request
unnecessary and intrusive.
I think there is no legal reason that customers should feel
compelled to disclose this personal information. I think
customers should be able to refuse this request, without
suffering any denial of service -- especially in Quebec,
the only province with specific privacy legislation relating
to non-governmental organizations.
If you are denied service by Hydro-Quebec because you chose
not to reveal your SIN, please contact EFC at: djo...@efc.ca
If we get any more detailed information, it will be put online at:
http://www.efc.ca/pages/hydro-quebec-sin.html
- - -
Hydro-Quebec . . . Facture
Le X janvier 1997
La prochaine fois que vous nous appellerez, et on vous demande
votre numero d'assurance sociale, ne vous inquietez pas;
c'est pour valider votre identite et vous garantir une fois
pour toutee que votre dossier vous appartient en exclusivite.
- - -
Bill 68 (1993, chapter 17, Quebec Provincial Law)
An Act respecting the protection of personal information
in the private sector (Enacted: June 15, 1993)
9. No person may refuse to respond to a request for goods or services
or to a request relating to employment
by reason of the applicant's refusal to disclose personal information
except where
(1) collection of that information is necessary for the conclusion
or performance of a contract;
(2) collection of that information is authorized by law; or
(3) there are reasonable grounds to believe that the request
is not lawful.
In case of doubt, personal information is considered
to be non-necessary.
- - -
Jean-Pierre Boileau
On 18 Dec 1996 16:43:00 -0500, djo...@insight.mcmaster.ca (David Jones) wrote:
>
>Hydro-Quebec has started sending out the following notice
>to customers with their most recent electricity bills.
>It tells customers "not to worry" when asked to provide
>their Social Insurance Number. I consider this request
>unnecessary and intrusive.
I consider you childish and unresponsible of your actions.
>I think there is no legal reason that customers should feel
>compelled to disclose this personal information. I think
>customers should be able to refuse this request, without
>suffering any denial of service -- especially in Quebec,
>the only province with specific privacy legislation relating
>to non-governmental organizations.
Sorry to say, but Hydro has the legal right to REQUIRE your SIN. It's an
amendment to Bill 68. Read up, buddy.
>If you are denied service by Hydro-Quebec because you chose
>not to reveal your SIN, please contact EFC at: djo...@efc.ca
Get a grip. If your fun is to run up a high hydro bill and then split without
leaving a follow-up address, you should be punished.
If it's not, then what is the problem with giving your SIN to Hydro-Quebec, a
highly reputed and reliable company?
MCKAY john
In article <32baec08.18382353@news> jpi...@generation.net (Jean-Pierre Boileau) writes:
>On 18 Dec 1996 16:43:00 -0500, djo...@insight.mcmaster.ca (David Jones) wrote:
>
>>
>>Hydro-Quebec has started sending out the following notice
>>to customers with their most recent electricity bills.
>>It tells customers "not to worry" when asked to provide
>>their Social Insurance Number. I consider this request
>>unnecessary and intrusive.
>
>I consider you childish and unresponsible of your actions.
>
>>I think there is no legal reason that customers should feel
>>compelled to disclose this personal information. I think
>>customers should be able to refuse this request, without
>>suffering any denial of service -- especially in Quebec,
>>the only province with specific privacy legislation relating
>>to non-governmental organizations.
>
>Sorry to say, but Hydro has the legal right to REQUIRE your SIN. It's an
>amendment to Bill 68. Read up, buddy.
To my knowledge there is no amendment to Bill 68. Give me
the reference to this "supposed amendment".
Federal law tells when you need your SIN. Connection to a public
utility is, I believe, not such an instance.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>If you are denied service by Hydro-Quebec because you chose
>>not to reveal your SIN, please contact EFC at: djo...@efc.ca
>
>Get a grip. If your fun is to run up a high hydro bill and then split without
>leaving a follow-up address, you should be punished.
>
>If it's not, then what is the problem with giving your SIN to Hydro-Quebec, a
>highly reputed and reliable company?
>
>> Bill 68 (1993, chapter 17, Quebec Provincial Law)
>>
>> An Act respecting the protection of personal information
>> in the private sector (Enacted: June 15, 1993)
>>
>> 9. No person may refuse to respond to a request for goods or services
>> or to a request relating to employment
>> by reason of the applicant's refusal to disclose personal information
>> except where
>>
>> (1) collection of that information is necessary for the conclusion
>> or performance of a contract;
>> (2) collection of that information is authorized by law; or
>> (3) there are reasonable grounds to believe that the request
>> is not lawful.
>>
>> In case of doubt, personal information is considered
>> to be non-necessary.
>
--
Deep ideas are simple.
Odd groups are even.
Even simples are not;
and Gal/F2(t)(x^24-x-t) = Mathieu group, M24.
r...@inetworld.net
>On 18 Dec 1996 16:43:00 -0500, djo...@insight.mcmaster.ca (David Jones) wrote:
>
>>
>>Hydro-Quebec has started sending out the following notice
>>to customers with their most recent electricity bills.
>>It tells customers "not to worry" when asked to provide
>>their Social Insurance Number. I consider this request
>>unnecessary and intrusive.
>
>I consider you childish and unresponsible of your actions.
>
>>I think there is no legal reason that customers should feel
>>compelled to disclose this personal information. I think
>>customers should be able to refuse this request, without
>>suffering any denial of service -- especially in Quebec,
>>the only province with specific privacy legislation relating
>>to non-governmental organizations.
>
>Sorry to say, but Hydro has the legal right to REQUIRE your SIN. It's an
>amendment to Bill 68. Read up, buddy.
>
>>If you are denied service by Hydro-Quebec because you chose
>>not to reveal your SIN, please contact EFC at: djo...@efc.ca
>
>Get a grip. If your fun is to run up a high hydro bill and then split without
>leaving a follow-up address, you should be punished.
>
>If it's not, then what is the problem with giving your SIN to Hydro-Quebec, a
>highly reputed and reliable company?
>
>> Bill 68 (1993, chapter 17, Quebec Provincial Law)
>>
>> An Act respecting the protection of personal information
>> in the private sector (Enacted: June 15, 1993)
>>
>> 9. No person may refuse to respond to a request for goods or services
>> or to a request relating to employment
>> by reason of the applicant's refusal to disclose personal information
>> except where
>>
>> (1) collection of that information is necessary for the conclusion
>> or performance of a contract;
>> (2) collection of that information is authorized by law; or
>> (3) there are reasonable grounds to believe that the request
>> is not lawful.
>>
>> In case of doubt, personal information is considered
>> to be non-necessary.
Another typical example of PQ authoritarianism. There's no way in
hell someone should be required to give his social security number (or
the Canadian equivalent) to any corporation. This bullshit excuse
that they need the number in order to track down scofflaws is
nonsense. It's just another way for the PQ government to intrude upon
the lives of responsible people for no reason other than the fact that
they want to control what you do.
Fight this with everything you have, folks. Next thing you know, the
Quebec border guards will be asking for your "papers" before they let
you visit Ontario.
=Bob
Metamorphosis
> I consider you childish and unresponsible of your actions.
>
> >I think there is no legal reason that customers should feel
> >compelled to disclose this personal information. I think
> >customers should be able to refuse this request, without
> >suffering any denial of service -- especially in Quebec,
> >the only province with specific privacy legislation relating
> >to non-governmental organizations.
>
> Sorry to say, but Hydro has the legal right to REQUIRE your SIN. It's an
> amendment to Bill 68. Read up, buddy.
>
Really? And why's that? Should it follow that any company out there, of
which there
are 100K's in Canada - also demand and get your SIN number? If you wish to
address
matters of non-payment for services rendered - do you think that
establishments have
been traditionally unable to collect without access to SIN data alone? SIN
data has never
prevented them in the past, nor should prevent them in the future. To think
otherwise is
to merely speculate without just cause or merit. Just because it's an
"amendment" to such
and such a law, does not make it morally or ethically just - lest you might
believe that the
corporate world should share similarly supreme power as does the state. Do
you believe
so? Then I tell you this. I takes only a unique corporate name and an
outlay of funds for a
corporation to be legally borne - and this alone thus, could allow others,
questionnable in
some circumstances, to force you to provide them with very confidential
data - that they
should not necessarily possess, which they (as they are the embodiment of
individuals)
could or can use against you. Under no terms, should a corporation have
access to highly
personal and confidential data - for these are chaired and run by
individuals - much like
yourself - and thus, not subjected to the scrutiny and controls as that
wrought upon a state
possessing similar data.
> Get a grip. If your fun is to run up a high hydro bill and then split
without
> leaving a follow-up address, you should be punished.
>
That's your position, your fear - not necessarily that of the author of
this posting.
> If it's not, then what is the problem with giving your SIN to
Hydro-Quebec, a
> highly reputed and reliable company?
Because we have the right to protect ourselves from the disclosure of
personal data - that's
why. There are surely other verification measures than can be employed (and
have for many
years now), without having to resort to the disclosure of one's SIN. The
recently trend typifies
the phenomena of corporatism trying to pull the hood over individualism,
assuming and usurping
those powers (as in access to personal data) that for many years, only the
state was said
"authorized" to compile. Pursue this trend, and corporatism shall quickly
become a new "demi-God",
appropriating and investing itself with far more powers (in terms of
tapping into our personal lives)
than these may justly, righteously and honourably deserve.
Cossette
On Sat, 21 Dec 1996 21:32:10 GMT, r...@inetworld.net wrote:
>>>Hydro-Quebec has started sending out the following notice
>>>to customers with their most recent electricity bills.
>>>It tells customers "not to worry" when asked to provide
>>>their Social Insurance Number.
Pardon me, I haven't followed this thread.
But why on earth would Hydro-Quebec want anybody's SIN for ?
Reply e-mail if preferred.
Gregory Resch
r...@inetworld.net writes:
> . . .It's against the law in the U.S. for a company to ask
> for your social security number for pretty much any reason. . . .
Totally false.
--
r...@inetworld.net
Because Hydro-Quebec is an authoritarian wing of an authoritarian
ruling party?
But seriously , or a bit more so than above - apparently they figure
they can track you down easier if you don't pay your bills if they
have your SIN. It's against the law in the U.S. for a company to ask
for your social security number for pretty much any reason, but then
our companies aren't state-owned monopolies.
=Bob
Dick Rinewalt
In article <32c47a2e...@news.inetworld.net>, r...@inetworld.net wrote:
> [...] It's against the law in the U.S. for a company to ask
> for your social security number for pretty much any reason, but then
> our companies aren't state-owned monopolies.
Wrong. In the US, only government agencies and educational
institutions which receive federal funds are restricted in
terms of asking for and using your SSN. There are no laws
governing use of the SSN by businesses.
Dick
r...@inetworld.net
You're quite correct. Anyone can ask for most anything. It's against
the law for a company to deny you service if you refuse to give them
your social security number. Of course, I'm sure they can find other
means of avoiding giving you a credit card or some such if you refuse,
but utilities are another matter all together.
=Bob
Mike Williams
Yes; just try cashing a check in my neck of the woods (central Virginia) without:
1) a check which has your SSN written on it, or 2) a driver's license, which has your
SSN written on it as a license number. The frustrating thing is that my Social
Security card explicitly states that the number may not be used for identification
purposes.
-Mike Williams
Dick Rinewalt
There is NO federal law that keeps businesses from requiring you to
disclose your SSN. Federal law restricts ONLY government agencies --
federal, state, and local -- and educational institutions which
receive federal funds. If there are some enlightened states which
provide the kind of protection that you mentioned, please let us know.
Dick
Gregory Resch
r...@inetworld.net writes:
> On 27 Dec 1996 21:05:58 -0500, re...@cpcug.org (Gregory Resch) wrote:
> >
> > r...@inetworld.net writes:
> > > . . .It's against the law in the U.S. for a company to ask
> > > for your social security number for pretty much any reason. . . .
> >
> > Totally false.
>
> . . .It's against
> the law for a company to deny you service if you refuse to give them
> your social security number. . . .
Totally, totally false.
--
Too Many Cats
Cossette wrote:
>
> On Sat, 21 Dec 1996 21:32:10 GMT, r...@inetworld.net wrote:
>
> >>>Hydro-Quebec has started sending out the following notice
> >>>to customers with their most recent electricity bills.
> >>>It tells customers "not to worry" when asked to provide
> >>>their Social Insurance Number.
>
> Pardon me, I haven't followed this thread.
> But why on earth would Hydro-Quebec want anybody's SIN for ?
>
The reason Hydro wants your SIN is as a method of traking customers.
Since Hydro is having problems with people running out on their bills
they have deceided that the SIN number is the best way of traking people
down. The SIN number is a private number only to be used between
yourselves and government offices (also banks for reporting T5 interest
income). Although Hydro want to a Quebec court and got permission to
request and get this information..
Metamorphosis
> The reason Hydro wants your SIN is as a method of traking customers.
> Since Hydro is having problems with people running out on their bills
> they have deceided that the SIN number is the best way of traking people
> down. The SIN number is a private number only to be used between
> yourselves and government offices (also banks for reporting T5 interest
> income). Although Hydro want to a Quebec court and got permission to
> request and get this information..
Quick question...
If they did in fact receive authorization from the state to collect SIN
data (1 piece of data comprising the 9 digit
SIN), did they also receive authorization and more importantly, assistance
from the state in regards to establishing
the relationship between a particular SIN and most current resident address
provided by SIN holders to the state?
That is a question that is in my opinion, critical. Without access to such
relational data/information, possessing
one's SIN alone without accept to uptodate addressing data is practically
futile, lest they bypass the state's
confidentiality measures and still somehow are able to get addressing data.
r...@inetworld.net
On 28 Dec 96 21:43:28 GMT, t...@squonk.net (Trip Martin) wrote:
>r...@inetworld.net writes:
>
>>You're quite correct. Anyone can ask for most anything. It's against
>>the law for a company to deny you service if you refuse to give them
>>your social security number. Of course, I'm sure they can find other
>>means of avoiding giving you a credit card or some such if you refuse,
>>but utilities are another matter all together.
>
>What law prevents a company from denying service for lack of a SSN?
>As far as I know, a company may certainly deny service if you refuse
>to give your SSN.
Don't think so. I am not required to give my SSN to anyone except my
employer and the government. I've told any number of companies that
and they've backed down in a hurry; and I'm quite sure I do so because
I've read in the past that such is the law. I'll have to look to
verify that, but I'm pretty sure it's the case.
=Bob
Dick Rinewalt
I also have refused and companies have backed down, but they did
so only because they wanted my business not because of any legal
restrictions.
Dick
Too Many Cats
The point is not linking the SIN to a current address rather when
someone does a midnight move and runs out on a Hydro bill when they
attempt to have Hydro connected at there new residence, the SIN number
will give them away as someone with an outstanding balance.
Michael
r...@inetworld.net
On Tue, 31 Dec 1996 08:07:15 -0500, Too Many Cats <my16...@total.net>
wrote:
>The point is not linking the SIN to a current address rather when
>someone does a midnight move and runs out on a Hydro bill when they
>attempt to have Hydro connected at there new residence, the SIN number
>will give them away as someone with an outstanding balance.
And the point still is that there is no reason for Hydro Quebec to ask
anyone for their SIN because that's a private thing between the
government and the individual. If Hydro has THAT much of a problem
with tracking down people who don't pay, or isn't willing to absorb
non-payers as a cost of doing business, maybe they have no right
attempting to run a business in the first place (which they don't,
since they're really nothing more than a government bureaucracy
masquerading as a business).
=Bob
evans-the-swim
So what happens if you refuse to give them your SIN? Will they cut
you off?
Cossette
>The point is not linking the SIN to a current address rather when
>someone does a midnight move and runs out on a Hydro bill when they
>attempt to have Hydro connected at there new residence, the SIN number
>will give them away as someone with an outstanding balance.
I want to make 2 points concerning SIN and Hydro-Quebec.
Whichever way you want to look at it, that procedure will hit the poor
hardest. The rich don't have a problem since they can generally pay
their bills. The middle class doesn't have a problem since it can
manage to pay its power bill, and it generally does. The poor will
have to start paying... or they'll be out in the cold. Thanks to a
government device (SIN) that was designed for their special
protection, the special protection of the poor, that is.
Has anybody made the point yet, that linking one's SIN to one's hydro
bill is directed against the poor ?
Freeze in the dark, you penniless bastards, while the Accounting Dep't
at Hydro-Quebec gets your number and seizes your Social Security
Cheque until you've paid up what you owe to the company. Nice.
Can you REALLY go after someone who cheats just to keep warm and eat
or just to care for one's children ?
Come on guys, let's give every human being a minimum of food - heat -
medical care- clothes - shelter - education - child-support...
Isn't that what humanity is all about ? Isn't that what our affluent
societies are all about ? Hydro-Quebec is a public service and it
should not have special rights to go after the poor.
Another point that I want to make is :
Don't let SIN's be turned into Big Brother's informers, or you'll live
to see an Orwellian Quebec - and Canada.
If Hydro-Quebec gets away with this, why couldn't anybody else ?
The banks ? Insurance companies ? Car dealers ? Supermarkets ?
"Sorry, mister, no gas for you... The BBB says you have a balance
outstanding at Desjardin's restaurant, with SIN 123 456 522".
Wouldn't your community be safer if all new residents were to register
their SIN's with City Hall upon arrival ?
Let's imagine for a minute that in order to ensure public order,
strikers have to register their SIN's before picketing ...
Hey guys, you're in at the deep end.
Protest that move by Hydro-Quebec !
Fight it with all your strenght !
G. Cossette
"It is forbidden to forbid"
Alain Pilon
Gregory Resch <re...@cpcug.org> a écrit dans l'article
<resch.8...@cpcug.org>...
> r...@inetworld.net writes:
>
> > . . .It's against the law in the U.S. for a company to ask
> > for your social security number for pretty much any reason. . . .
>
>
>
> Totally false.
>
> with the new law on privacy act the SSN or SIN has to be given to the
department of income taxes and your employer.....you can refuse to give it
for any other purpose
> --
>
B. de Lisle
r...@inetworld.net wrote:
>But seriously , or a bit more so than above - apparently they figure
>they can track you down easier if you don't pay your bills if they
>for your social security number for pretty much any reason, but then
>our companies aren't state-owned monopolies.
This is not true anymore. You can be asked by any group for your ssn
for any reason.
--
Ben de Lisle ©1996 Send NO unsolisited advertsement E-mail - SEE
del...@eskimo.com http://www.eskimo.com/~delisle/ "Click on Warning"
Greg Resch
In article <01bbf814$99716340$2c7713cc@stats>,
Your quote-markings are goofed up; I didn't write those last lines.
They're nonsense anyway. There's no single law applying to both SSN and
SIN--they're for two different countries!
And as far as the SSN goes: No, one may *not* refuse revealing it in
certain other, very significant instances--interest-paying savings or
investment accounts, for example.
--
Giovanni 8
> B. de Lisle wrote:
>> r...@inetworld.net wrote:
>> But seriously , or a bit more so than above - apparently they figure
>> they can track you down easier if you don't pay your bills if they
>> have your SIN. It's against the law in the U.S. for a company to ask
>> for your social security number for pretty much any reason, but then
>> our companies aren't state-owned monopolies.
> This is not true anymore. You can be asked by any group for your ssn
> for any reason.
You can be asked by anyone. But it looks to me like, in the USA, there
are many government agencies you don't have to tell your Socialist
Insecurity Number. And, of course, you don't have to disclose it to
any businesses, and neither you nor the business has to deal with each
other (unless, possibly & in a sense, it's a gov't imposed monopoly,
e.g. cellular telephone). There are some weird circumstances under
which a "private business" was slapped on the wrist for demanding SINs
under orders from the gov't, though (Yeager v Hackensack Water Company).
This is my opinion and is not intended as legal advice. I am not a
member of the sheisters' guild, nor have I ever portrayed one on screen.
Consult a sheister before using any information contained herein.
jgo